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Speaker 1: For You're with Clement Manya Tela. But right now we

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Speaker 1: start something new on the show, a new monthly feature.

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Speaker 1: We are going to call it Exploring Spirituality with Forsumside

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Speaker 1: for Sumsi is the author of Jenny Guanto Exploring African

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Speaker 1: Spirituality and Identity. I've read his book, I've listened to

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Speaker 1: his podcast. I mean, he is really insightful. I mean

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Speaker 1: the book and some of you have asked the name.

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Speaker 1: I've posted it on my socials as well. It's not

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Speaker 1: just an academic exploration, you know, because it's rooted in

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Speaker 1: extensive historical research, but it's also quite personal. It's very practical,

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Speaker 1: which is what I've enjoyed about the book. And we

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Speaker 1: had him on the show last year and a lot

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Speaker 1: of you appreciated what he shared with us, and you

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Speaker 1: asked that we bring him back, and so we decided.

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Speaker 1: But actually we're going to study a feature to explore

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Speaker 1: spirituality because, as I have said to you many times,

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Speaker 1: I think we're lacking in that aspect as a society,

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Speaker 1: as human beings, because being a human being is not

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Speaker 1: just about your physical body, and maybe you take good

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Speaker 1: care of that through going to the gym. You wash

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Speaker 1: every day. But there's another element of you, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like that element is not being taken care of

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Speaker 1: because the conversations around spirituality and our soul and what

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Speaker 1: inhabits or you know, or what cohabits in our bodies.

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Speaker 1: I feel like those conversations are so uncomfortable, and I

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Speaker 1: want us to make those conversations normal. That's why we've

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Speaker 1: had a series on the show about what happens when

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Speaker 1: we die? And we spoke to all different belief systems,

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Speaker 1: you know, several of them, and we ask them, according

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Speaker 1: to your belief systems, what happens when we die? Why

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Speaker 1: are we so scared to have conversations about that? Why

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Speaker 1: are we so scared to explore our spirituality? Why are

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Speaker 1: you so scared you even ask questions about your own beliefs,

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Speaker 1: whether you believe in African spirituality, whether you believe you're

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Speaker 1: in Islam, whether you are a Christian, whether you read

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Speaker 1: the Torah? Why is it that we are so linear

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Speaker 1: in how we approach this concept of spirituality and we're

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Speaker 1: not explorative. And by explorative, I don't mean that you've

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Speaker 1: got to abandon what you believe in, but be curious

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Speaker 1: enough to know. So today we start this feature. We're

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Speaker 1: going to do this every single month, once a month

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Speaker 1: with Usumzi Monday. It's exploring spirituality and today we're going

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Speaker 1: to start by looking at religion in a changing world.

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Speaker 1: What does your religion or belief systems mean to you today? Huh.

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Speaker 1: Very often. We like to believe that faith is personal,

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Speaker 1: that we believe, how we pray, how we engage with

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Speaker 1: the divine. You know, we believe it's an intimate exchange

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Speaker 1: between ourselves and God, you know, untouched by politics or

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Speaker 1: history the world around us. But our faith is not

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Speaker 1: formed in isolation. It's shaped by the times we live in,

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Speaker 1: you know, the conflict that we witnessed, and by the

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Speaker 1: collective fears and hopes of this generation. So I'd like

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Speaker 1: you to join this conversation on oh one one eight

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Speaker 1: a three seven oh two. Do you think religion itself

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Speaker 1: is changing and evolving or are we witnessing the bath

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Speaker 1: of new spiritual forms? You can send your whatsaps as

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Speaker 1: well on seven two seven oh two one seven two

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Speaker 1: sum see Welcome back to the show Man. Good morning,

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Speaker 1: good morning, how are you. I'm good, and thank you

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Speaker 1: for doing this with us, for committing to guide us

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Speaker 1: through these conversations over the next couple of months, and

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Speaker 1: all of us are seeking here right right, we are

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Speaker 1: trying to law. Nobody really has the answers. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to start conversations that often are uncomfortable, and.

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Speaker 2: I actually think questions are always a very strong place

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Speaker 2: to start from. Don't don't treat your questions as a

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Speaker 2: hindrance or as as something that is a problem. Treat

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Speaker 2: them as opportunities, you know, treat them and treat them

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Speaker 2: as pointers on a map. Yeah, so it's best to

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Speaker 2: go away the questions are leading. Okay, Now let's begin

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Speaker 2: with and and we'll talk a lot obviously about our

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Speaker 2: context as South Africa.

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Speaker 1: Where does religion begin for us and how does it

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Speaker 1: then influence what comes next?

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Speaker 2: You know, the interesting thing about religion in our country,

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Speaker 2: if we were to speak to stick to like Christianity

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Speaker 2: or more broadly, is that if we were to speak

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Speaker 2: to Christians today, their view is that Christianity exists now.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're Christians. Now, they have a relationship with God,

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Speaker 2: they have a relationship with Christ now. But the reality

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Speaker 2: of it is that Christianity has a history and it

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Speaker 2: has gone through several phases, you know, and the other

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Speaker 2: realities that maybe for about only in the last let's

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Speaker 2: say forty to fifty years or so, have black people

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Speaker 2: in particular had the latitude to choose to be Christian

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Speaker 2: of your own volition, to say I am choosing it

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Speaker 2: is not as a system that was sort of imposed

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Speaker 2: any whereby you do not have a choice, you know,

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Speaker 2: And because of that, we need to be cognizant of

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Speaker 2: the fact that our belief is shaped by not just

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Speaker 2: our personal relationship with God as you mentioned, or with Christ,

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Speaker 2: It's also shaped by our circumstances. You know. Part of

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Speaker 2: this topic was in it by this conversation that I

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Speaker 2: had with my mother a couple of weeks ago. It's

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Speaker 2: a story that she tells all the time about the

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Speaker 2: violence in the early nineties, if you remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: the political violence. So she would travel to Joe Burke,

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Speaker 2: because I live in the West Rand, she would travel

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Speaker 2: to Joe Book by train and then during their peak

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Speaker 2: of the violence, you know, she would tell us of

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Speaker 2: these days where there would be violence on the trains.

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Speaker 2: There will be people shooting at the trains, you know,

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Speaker 2: there will be outside and the people in the trains

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Speaker 2: would then have to duck. You know, so you would

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Speaker 2: have these people inside the trains and then there's like

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Speaker 2: bullets flying through the trains through the windows, and then

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Speaker 2: the people inside, like my mother, they have to take

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Speaker 2: cover under the chairs and the train. And in that moment,

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Speaker 2: her prayer was, can I get home to my children alive?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: That was her.

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Speaker 2: That was a prayer. That wasn't an intimate prayer in

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Speaker 2: a person and God. That was the prayer of a

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Speaker 2: black woman who lived in a particular time, whose life

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Speaker 2: was shaped by particular influences, you know, and because of that,

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Speaker 2: her faith, her religion took a particular form. And when

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Speaker 2: I look at let's say today, parents of today, not

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Speaker 2: many people pray to get home alive. Their structure of

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Speaker 2: faith and their relationship with God is shaped by other things,

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Speaker 2: you know. And part of the reason why I think

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Speaker 2: we need to start here is that when we pray,

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Speaker 2: when we engage with spirit even and this is also

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Speaker 2: including African spirituality. You know, I'm just using Christianity as

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Speaker 2: an example when when it is shaped by those things,

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Speaker 2: what we tend to forget in the way that our

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Speaker 2: faith is shaped by our circumstances, we forget that a

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Speaker 2: lot of the time, especially as black people, our problems,

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Speaker 2: our prayers are stemming from systematic problems, right we like

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm praying I need to improve my relationship

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Speaker 2: with God. I need to be more faithful. But now

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Speaker 2: your problems are systematic. You don't have issues with your faith.

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Speaker 2: I can give you an example. If you have a business, right,

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Speaker 2: If you have a business that is struggling because there's

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Speaker 2: load shading or there's power cuts, and it is struggling

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Speaker 2: when you pray to God, what are you asking him for?

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Speaker 2: If you if you want to go consult, you know,

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Speaker 2: with with the healer, what are you asking them to

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Speaker 2: solve that My business is struggling and it's struggling because

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Speaker 2: we don't have water in mide rind what are you

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Speaker 2: asking them?

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Speaker 3: All?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Because your problem is not faith.

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Speaker 2: Your problem is not what you believe in, you know,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately you feel that it needs to be responded to.

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Speaker 2: If you're a woman who has an abusive husband and

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Speaker 2: you live in a system where GPV is rampant, what

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Speaker 2: are you praying for? Because the issue is not you,

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Speaker 2: and the issue is not your partner per se, The

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Speaker 2: issue is the society that you live in. And I

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Speaker 2: think when we are not cognizant of the fact that

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Speaker 2: the world is shaping our faith, we tend to lose

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Speaker 2: our faith or our connection with spirit and with the

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Speaker 2: divine and with God because we are not cognizant of

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Speaker 2: the fact that the problems that I'm having are not

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Speaker 2: a spiritual problem, They're actually a systematic problem. And because

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Speaker 2: now we can't separate these things, we are in a

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Speaker 2: place where we feel that spiritually in and of itself

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Speaker 2: is useless.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask you about this geographical argument

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Speaker 1: that often gets placed, you know, during these kind of

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Speaker 1: conversations about being born in America or Europe, in Asia

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Speaker 1: or Africa, that influences the kind of religion that you

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Speaker 1: take up. Yes, I mean there are of course exceptions

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Speaker 1: where someone who is born in India won't take up

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Speaker 1: you know, it won't be Hindu. Yes, they may be Christian.

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Speaker 1: They are exceptions where someone who's born in Japan, or

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Speaker 1: who's in America, or in even Italy maybe a Muslim

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Speaker 1: for instance. But those are exceptions. So then how do

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Speaker 1: we reconcile this idea of Because one of the things

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Speaker 1: I've had to learn as an adult now is wait,

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Speaker 1: this Christianity path that I've taken. When I took it

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Speaker 1: as a child, it was not because I chose it.

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Speaker 1: I did not have a relationship with God. I didn't

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Speaker 1: really understand him. I found this thing in my family

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Speaker 1: and this is how we lived, and that shaped how

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Speaker 1: I believe. But when I grew up, I realized that

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Speaker 1: I need to make my decision, which is why I learn.

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Speaker 1: I ask the questions and then I choose now to

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Speaker 1: be a Christian. And I believe that is my decision.

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Speaker 1: But there are many people who have grown up and

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Speaker 1: were born into religious systems and to this day they

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Speaker 1: followed the religion of their ancestors, of their parents, and

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Speaker 1: not so much what they truly believe. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of that argument and what does it say about

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Speaker 1: what we believe as a society. If that geographical argument

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Speaker 1: an element can influence really what you believe in.

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Speaker 2: That's such a great question. Clement, me and you right

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Speaker 2: now speaking English, that means anything exactly. There's a whole

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Speaker 2: history between why your name is Clement. Yes, there's a

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Speaker 2: whole history. Be toweo about why me and you are

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Speaker 2: speaking in English. If we're a couple of hundred kilometers

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Speaker 2: from here. We're speaking Portuguese. You know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: We are influenced by our history that takes away certain

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Speaker 2: kinds of choices that we could have made. And this

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Speaker 2: is very true even with religion. But now me and

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Speaker 2: you can't choose not to speak English. We can say Nostwana.

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Speaker 2: We have eleven official languages. The reason why we are

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Speaker 2: choosing to speak this language is that there's a practicality

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Speaker 2: to it. There's a way in which it helps us

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Speaker 2: navigate our particular circumstances. So, in terms of the idea

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Speaker 2: of faith, I think for people who are deeply religious,

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Speaker 2: is it would be something that is difficult for them

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Speaker 2: to process to say you can choose a particular faith

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Speaker 2: in that this is how it helps you navigate, and

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Speaker 2: that in the same sentiment, you can choose not to

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Speaker 2: partake in a particular faith because it does not help you,

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Speaker 2: you know. And this is where the idea of religious

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Speaker 2: tolerance becomes important. There's a way in which we don't

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Speaker 2: understand that certain belief systems suit certain people better than

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Speaker 2: it suits others. I believe that there are people who

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Speaker 2: are physiologically built to be Christian. The way there is

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Speaker 2: a way in which that faith, the way it is constructed,

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Speaker 2: its principles resonate with certain people. There are certain people

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Speaker 2: who are born to be Muslim, if you know, even

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Speaker 2: if they didn't know about it, when they hear about it,

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Speaker 2: it just clicks. It just makes sense. You know. There

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Speaker 2: are people for whom Buddhism could have been best. You know,

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Speaker 2: But the idea of resonance is not some of spiritual

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Speaker 2: resonance is not something that we speak about a lot.

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Speaker 2: So in answering your question, there is a choice in

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Speaker 2: belief regardless of your background. But the reality is that

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Speaker 2: will that belief help you in that particular function that

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Speaker 2: you in that particular circumstance those circumstances, some people are

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Speaker 2: Christian because it is the most convenient thing to be,

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Speaker 2: you know. I remember I had I had a cousin

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Speaker 2: who who became Muslim at some point, and I asked him.

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Speaker 2: He was living in limpop at the time, and I

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Speaker 2: asked him and then when I he's like, no, it's

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Speaker 2: because I'm a businessman. And when you want to do

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Speaker 2: business within this particular industry of small businesses, you have

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Speaker 2: to you know, the people who run things are the

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Speaker 2: Muslim people, and they don't want to do business with

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Speaker 2: people who are not of Muslim faith. So I became that.

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Speaker 2: So it was the most convenient thing for me for

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Speaker 2: me to do. You know, in many ways in our history,

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Speaker 2: it would have been more convenient for you to be

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Speaker 2: to be Christian if you wanted to navigate the world,

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Speaker 2: more than it would have been for you to be

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Speaker 2: something else, because the system do not allow for that,

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Speaker 2: you know. So we need to be cognizant of the

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Speaker 2: fact that one there is there are belief systems that

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Speaker 2: are more resonant for some people than they are. It

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Speaker 2: is not a one size fits all, but it's difficulty,

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Speaker 2: you know, for the deeply religious people to believe that

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Speaker 2: other faiths can. It's not about truth, it's about resonance. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because resonance is they feel like it's a choice. But

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Speaker 2: resonance is not a choice. What and the challenge with

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Speaker 2: resonance is that it's the difference between what is right

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Speaker 2: and what feels right.

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Speaker 1: So do we have more people seeking spirituality today because

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Speaker 1: it almost feels like Christians like Christianity let me use

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Speaker 1: that example, or even the interest in the Bible seem

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Speaker 1: to be rising again. I've been I mean on TikTok.

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Speaker 1: You see, you know people who are like going back

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Speaker 1: to church, like Catholics. There's like a whole movement. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's just what we see portrayed

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Speaker 1: on social media, but it seems like people are seeking spirituality.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if that has got to do

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Speaker 1: with the world we live in today. I mean, COVID,

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Speaker 1: you're so individual like we were individualistic in that way.

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Speaker 1: In fact, circumstances forced us to be that. There are

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Speaker 1: all sorts of challenges we're dealing with in today's world

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Speaker 1: that are unexplained and sometimes will force you to find

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Speaker 1: and answer some way. Do you think we're seeking more

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Speaker 1: and more? And if that's the case, why because because also,

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Speaker 1: sorry assumas, I pick up a lot from even people

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Speaker 1: around me who are beginning to ask questions. So they're

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Speaker 1: trying to explore, like we read spiritual books that may

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Speaker 1: have nothing to do with their own belief systems. They're

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Speaker 1: asking questions that their religious leaders have always told them

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Speaker 1: don't question certain things, And I wonder what is behind that.

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Speaker 2: What I can say to that is that in terms

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Speaker 2: of chaos, in terms of turmoil, people lean towards spirituality.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people had their spiritual awakening during COVID.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of people who because of the isolation,

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Speaker 2: because of the way in which the world stopped making sense,

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Speaker 2: and that certainty of it. If we were to look

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Speaker 2: at the stats around twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, there

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Speaker 2: was a spike in church attendance, or rather not even

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Speaker 2: church attendants because we couldn't go to church, but in

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Speaker 2: religious interests, you know, TikTok blew up with a lot

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Speaker 2: of spirituality, the socials blew up with a lot of spirituality.

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Speaker 2: There is a way in which the human spirit tries

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Speaker 2: to find some meaning in the world. And the irony

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Speaker 2: of it is that the countries that are less religious

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Speaker 2: are the countries that are more economically stable. Which is

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Speaker 2: ironic in the sense that in church, or you know,

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Speaker 2: in all of faith, we were made to believe that

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Speaker 2: if you believe strong enough, your life becomes better. If

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Speaker 2: you have a good relationship with God, your life becomes better.

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Speaker 2: But the people who do have a better life actually

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Speaker 2: less religious. They believe less in God. But in terms

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Speaker 2: of numbers, the numbers of let's say Christianity, for instance,

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Speaker 2: the number of actual number of Christians has not changed,

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Speaker 2: has changed by like one percent in one hundred years.

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Speaker 2: In one hundred years, it is changed by about one percent.

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Speaker 2: Only there's been one percent difference in the past one

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Speaker 2: hundred years. The shift that is happening is that it

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Speaker 2: is not the number of people, it is who these

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Speaker 2: people are. What has happened is that gradually, over the

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Speaker 2: past couple of decades, the number of Christians in the

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Speaker 2: West steadily declined. It has and in some instances it

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Speaker 2: has tanked, and then in Sub Saharan Africa it is rising. Right,

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Speaker 2: just just a basic fact, the median age of a

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Speaker 2: Christian in the West, in America and Europe, the median

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Speaker 2: age of a Christian is forty five years old, and

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Speaker 2: Africa is nineteen years old. Right. And there are in

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Speaker 2: the West for every three people that leave Christianity only

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Speaker 2: one joint right. So Christianity in the West is dying,

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Speaker 2: and is dying in such a way that it is

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Speaker 2: not a deep decline whereby something can happen and turn

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Speaker 2: it back up. It is it is happening over such

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Speaker 2: a prolonged period of time that it's getting worked out

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Speaker 2: of people's system, whereby it is like you know, it's

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Speaker 2: easier when when something happens gradually it harder and harder

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Speaker 2: to get out of it, rather than when it happens

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: You know, could that be because you've indicated that in

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Speaker 1: these countries where the economy is stable. Could it be

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Speaker 1: because just inherently, as human beings, when we can do

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Speaker 1: things for ourselves, and I say that in inverted commercile,

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Speaker 1: you've got a job, the economy is stable, education is guaranteed,

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Speaker 1: health care is guaranteed, then you somehow feel like you

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily need the superpower that can solve your issues.

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Speaker 1: But when you are in some parts of the country

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Speaker 1: where you are below the poverty line, where there's still

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Speaker 1: in need of some sorts, then you still feel the

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Speaker 1: need to appeal to a higher power that can solve

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Speaker 1: some of your issues. And once again, I want to

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Speaker 1: preface this by saying, of course, there are exceptions. That's

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Speaker 1: why you've got rich people who can still believe even

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Speaker 1: when they can do things for themselves. But I do

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Speaker 1: think that those are exceptions. In a way, do you

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Speaker 1: find that I'm trying to understand, why is it that

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Speaker 1: in these places where the economy so stable people are

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Speaker 1: able to do stuff for themselves. It seems to be declining,

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Speaker 1: like religion or spirituality, and yet you've got places like

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Speaker 1: Southern Africa where it's rising. What could be the explanation then, ego,

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Speaker 1: uh huh.

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Speaker 2: When you start believing that you have done everything yourself

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Speaker 2: and you have no need and there's there's no you

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Speaker 2: have and science has answered all your questions, and science

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Speaker 2: has convinced you that all there is is your physical effort,

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Speaker 2: and where things like you know, if you work hard,

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Speaker 2: things will will work out for you. You believe in

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Speaker 2: yourself and you believe, you believe in the capacity of

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Speaker 2: you as as a human being, and then that severs,

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Speaker 2: it completely cuts your relationship to that in all the

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Speaker 2: things that you have done, your store relatively nothing in

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Speaker 2: the broader scheme of things.

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Speaker 1: Ah yeah, because there are people who believe that their

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Speaker 1: hard work is what works. They don't pray, they don't

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Speaker 1: believe in a God or a superpower, but they are successful.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got other people who equally will believe

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Speaker 1: that I'm nothing without God. God will ANSERMI prayers. And

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Speaker 1: yet they've been praying for the last ten years for

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Speaker 1: God to heal their daughter who's got cancer, or for

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Speaker 1: God to give them employment and they still don't have it.

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Speaker 1: But I find that because of how spiritual we've become,

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Speaker 1: we find justifications for their failures quote unquote, for lack

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Speaker 1: of a better word, in our prayers. So if you've

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Speaker 1: been praying for your mom to be healed and your

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Speaker 1: mom still dies sadley three weeks later, there's a justification

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Speaker 1: of no. But it's the will of God.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: But if you pray for your mom to be healed

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Speaker 1: from cancer and three weeks later your mom is in remission,

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Speaker 1: it's look at God.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So there's no space for God to falter. It's he's

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Speaker 1: always a good God. But if he doesn't answer my prayers,

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Speaker 1: then no, he's not a bad God. He's it's just

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Speaker 1: his will. Yes, because we always find the space.

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Speaker 2: We have an transactional relationship with Yeah, if I do this,

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Speaker 2: this must happen.

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Speaker 1: This must happen, which is not the case. We'll get

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Speaker 1: into more of that after the latest and Eyewitness in

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Speaker 1: his Headlights it's ten thirty two seven Clement Show, Let's

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Speaker 1: walk it all. It's twenty four minutes before eleven o'clock.

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Speaker 1: We're speaking to Vasumsi Monday. We have started a new

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Speaker 1: feature today. We're going to do this monthly. But i'

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Speaker 1: mean joining this chat so much that I wish we

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Speaker 1: were doing this feature every single week. We call it

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Speaker 1: Exploring Spirituality with Usumsilan Day. And I want you to

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Speaker 1: join the conversation on oh one eight eight three h

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Speaker 1: seven oh two you if anything picked your interest, or

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Speaker 1: you've got a question, or you are exploring something, you've

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Speaker 1: got an input, you can send your whats ups as

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Speaker 1: well and a seven two seven or two and seven

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Speaker 1: or two. Let's start with Makasnka, who's calling us from

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Speaker 1: Jabulani in soet to ma Ka Sonka, good morning.

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Speaker 4: Good morning, and you're just as well, Clement, Clement. In

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Speaker 4: my journey, what I've realized with the issue of faith

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Speaker 4: is that one of the things that I made a

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Speaker 4: mistake was was not understanding the biblical principles and also

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Speaker 4: not understanding the translation in Hebrew and Greek. You know,

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Speaker 4: so that I don't know it, they understand the meaning

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Speaker 4: of what I'm reading, because sometimes when you when you

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Speaker 4: understand something by just reading it, you might miss the meaning.

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Speaker 4: If ever, I don't know the translation of Hebrew or

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Speaker 4: Greek with regards to whatever it is that you want

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Speaker 4: to understand it. And actually I'm more focusing on the

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Speaker 4: issue of why some people would be successful even though

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Speaker 4: they don't believe to understand and ad issue is that

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Speaker 4: I only also discuss the fact that God doesn't play

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Speaker 4: a role in my life because there's certain things that

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Speaker 4: are spiritual that I cannot explain in terms of saying

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Speaker 4: that why this thing has happened because some things like

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Speaker 4: for example, to remember just polularized the problem with my marriage.

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Speaker 4: Certain things I just pray about them, you understand, and

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Speaker 4: I see change, not because I've implemented certain principles in

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Speaker 4: terms of in terms of maybe doing certain things, but

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Speaker 4: just starting seeing changed by the virtue of and im

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Speaker 4: saying that I have a creator that created me to

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Speaker 4: understand there's the power beyond what I'm, what I'm doing,

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Speaker 4: what I'm what is happening regarding to my life, you know.

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Speaker 4: So basically, uh, for me, is that one thing that

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Speaker 4: delays lot of believers, especial those who believe in the

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Speaker 4: Bible is the fact that they don't they don't they

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Speaker 4: don't doing that from those two issues that are that

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Speaker 4: are bredge which is the applying biblical principle. And also

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Speaker 4: and I said, the minimum through Greek and Hebrew.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Michael, thank you so much for your thoughts. I'll

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Speaker 1: get assumes it to reflect on that if he's got

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Speaker 1: some reflections. You're in Painville.

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Speaker 5: Good morning, morning comment, and morning to your guest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I also want to touch on the aspect of raising

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Speaker 5: in religion generally. It has been my experience that most religion,

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Speaker 5: if not some, do not encourage rational or something which

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Speaker 5: I call the courage to doubt, the courage to doubt.

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Speaker 6: Bye.

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Speaker 5: By that, I mean, I'm implied that we must not

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Speaker 5: we must not be sig to question God, so that

436
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 5: our faith can develop stronger question of God. And so

437
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: I believe through rational and engaging robastly with some of

438
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 5: the top threams in some particular religion, we might be

439
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 5: able to develop stronger and much more tiper faith. Most

440
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 5: of the things that have been question are called heresy,

441
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 5: saying you're beginning to be heretic or haram in Islam.

442
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 5: I have a friend who's a Muslim, and I asked

443
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 5: him one day, I say, why is it that you

444
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 5: guys Muslims can marry a Christian woman and converted to

445
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: a Muslim. But a Christian guy can't marry a Muslim humor,

446
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 5: And he says to me, no, it's the law. I

447
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 5: said no, but knows love knows no, religion knows no color.

448
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 5: But why, he says, no, Now you're beginning to attack

449
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 5: my religion. No, it became emotional. I had to top it.

450
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 5: So rational is the key.

451
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Susy, thank you so much for that. And

452
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: I was responding there and I said who because it

453
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: touched on my most favorite quote in a movie. I

454
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: don't know if you've watched Conclave. Check it out the

455
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: movie Conclave. That's that my favorite one of my.

456
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: Friends that ended up turning out into real life situation.

457
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: So his name is Ralph Finn. This actor fins thank

458
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: you in the movie. He says, this is my favorite

459
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: quote in the movie. He says, and I quote, our

460
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand

461
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: in hand with doubt. If there was only certainty and

462
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: no doubt, there would be no mystery and therefore no

463
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: need for faith. And when he uttered those words in

464
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: that film, I thought, oh my god, that's it. But

465
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: religion teaches you not to doubt, and yet it cannot

466
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: exist without doubt because if you have set tainty, what's

467
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: the point do you find then that? Because what he's

468
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: raising there is rationale. I do also, by the way,

469
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: I think spiritual things are not always going to be rational.

470
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: That's why people be even miracles like you suddenly are

471
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: healed all because you prayed. So some things you can

472
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: really reason and rationally explain them because it's spirituality, they're

473
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: not meant to be explainable. What do you think.

474
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: You that quote is actually very important and based on

475
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: what was bringing up about the courage to question story time.

476
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: So in the in the fifteen hundreds, there was a

477
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: time in Christianity.

478
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: Where you could buy your way out of hell, where

479
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: where you.

480
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: Could pay money to get out of health so that

481
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: you don't end up in hell hell, so you leave earlier.

482
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: So in Catholicism there's a place called purgatory. So purgatory

483
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: is basically where it's sort of it's not like health

484
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: per se, but this is where your soul gets cleansed before. Yes,

485
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: it's an in between space where but there's a place

486
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: of suffering where your soul gets cleansed through suffering. So

487
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: in There was a time in Catholicism whereby you could

488
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: do certain things to reduce the amount of time that

489
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: to spend in purgatory. It could be like prayers, going

490
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: to certain holy sites. But around the fifteen hundreds, you

491
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: could pay money to get out of hell if you

492
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: paid certain amount of money. There was like a ratio.

493
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: If you pay this amount of money, you get ten

494
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: years out of help if you pay this amount. And

495
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: this was a decree by the pope at the time.

496
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: Right.

497
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: So there was this guy called Martin Luther, who was

498
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: a German monk, you know.

499
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: So one day he was going to Rome.

500
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: He needed to report on something. And when he started

501
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: getting an understanding of this thing of indulgences, he knew

502
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: about it. But now when he was in Rome, he's

503
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: seeing it. How it's like, you know, Rome at the

504
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: time was like New York. It was like debauchery, and

505
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: people could do, especially the wealth, they could do a

506
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: lot of things because they knew that they had money.

507
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: They weren't going to spend any time to pay for

508
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: their sins. Right, So he decided to challenge that. So

509
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: this one person, this one monk, he challenged the entire

510
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: Roman Catholic Church. You know, he had, as Jesus says,

511
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: the courage to question, and he was like, how do

512
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: we know? He asked a simple question, how do you

513
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: know it actually works? How do you actually know that

514
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: this money that you've paid will actually work? You know,

515
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: because at the time it was a situation whereby you

516
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: could go to a particular church. He went to a

517
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: particular church, and you would you had to crawl up

518
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: the stairs. If you crawl up the stairs on your

519
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: on your knees, on your hands and knees and reciting

520
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: the Lord's prayer, you.

521
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: Get two hundred and fifty years off.

522
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: And he did that, and I think the stairs just

523
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: abused his knees. So he gets to the top of

524
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: the stairs. That's when he has this moment. He's like, nah,

525
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: this is nonsense. So then he in fifteen seventeen, he

526
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: goes he basically nails he has this charter called to

527
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: the ninety five pieces that he nails onto the church

528
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: door to say, this thing is actually rubbish. These are

529
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: the laws that we as a church actually need to

530
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 2: abide by. Right with that action, Martin Ruth gave birth

531
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: to every single church that you know that was the

532
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: Protestant movement. So every church Methodist, like Presbyterian, my Postola,

533
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: every single church that you know, was born out of

534
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: Martin Luther having the courage to challenge the church to say,

535
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: and the interesting thing is people think that when you

536
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: challenge religion, you're challenging God. He said, this is not

537
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: about the Bible. Take the Bible and put us I'm

538
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: questioning religion, I'm questioning the church. And these ninety five

539
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: pieces are how the church must conduct itself, not how

540
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: people must relate to their Bible, because it is the

541
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: religion that is corrupting people, not God and not the Bible.

542
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: And the religious leaders don't want people to be spiritual

543
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: because spirituality requires for you to have that personal relationship

544
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: and ask questions and be satisfied. That's why it was

545
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: illegal for people to read the Bible before. If somebody

546
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: else had to tell you what it says, the people were,

547
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: they kept they kept it in Latin because they didn't

548
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: want people to the Church said that it is it

549
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: is sinful for people to read the Bible for themselves.

550
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: One of the things that shocked me is when I ask,

551
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: you know, my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, and I'm like,

552
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: do you know how the Bible came about? A lot

553
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: of them don't know, And I'm like, oh my god,

554
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: so what you think it just fell from heaven? Are

555
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: you not interested in the context of how did the

556
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 1: Book of Paul make it there? How? How did these books?

557
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 1: And di do we have any other books that existed before?

558
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: And who voted? Because they are politicians who voted which

559
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: books are going to be in the Bible, but that context,

560
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: they don't care about it. And I get it because

561
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: maybe you care about the message. But for me, that

562
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: worries me that I'm believing in something and yet I

563
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: don't know the origins of it. That worries me. And

564
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: when you start questioning that, then you're seeing as you're

565
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: questioning God. Let's go to see these words of voice

566
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: on that also come through alsov into seven O two

567
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: and seven O two.

568
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 6: Tlemond, is it's still morning? Good morning? Mean I'm not Christian? Nay,

569
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 6: that is number one. I'm not Christian and I will

570
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 6: never be, and I'll never force my kids to be Christians.

571
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 6: The only thing I will do is to keep on

572
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 6: my belief. I'm a spiritualist. That is number one. And

573
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 6: I always tell people I might believe. Then they will say,

574
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 6: I'm confused.

575
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm not.

576
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 6: I believe there's God, and I believe there's Answerstors. I

577
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 6: don't believe in anything that is to do with Jesus Christ.

578
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 6: And the people who are confused that the ones who

579
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 6: are thinking God and Jesus Christ is the same thing.

580
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 6: Jesus was in a human form. God is a spiritual

581
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 6: part of it. So men, I'm not Christian. I'm just

582
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 6: a spiritualist and I'm a believer to say, yeah, I'm

583
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 6: going to go look corner and my answer STRs today

584
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 6: anything that is to do Jesus.

585
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 7: Nakaya now and good morning, Clement and use. I just

586
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 7: joined in, and I recognize the voice because I've been

587
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 7: listening to all the podcasts.

588
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: I've learned so much.

589
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 7: Now I'm struggling to find a podcast that can capture

590
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 7: the attention as much as Jenny Quando. I've learned a

591
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 7: lot about my origin, but I've chosen to continue with Christianity,

592
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 7: and I am now doing so with understanding and reflection

593
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 7: on the context. Thank you so much, Forsi, thank you.

594
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. That's so cool.

595
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: That's really cool. You know, I think we need to

596
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: make it clear to people that we are not disparaging Christianity.

597
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: I believe Christianity is in the extremely important phe system

598
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: for a lot of people and is a crucial aspect

599
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: of our society. But now here's another reality that people

600
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 2: may or may not know, especially black people.

601
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: Right.

602
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 2: So we spoke a bit about the stats about you know,

603
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 2: the number of Christians. They are now officially seventy percent

604
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: of Christians are in what they call the Global South, right,

605
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: and the numbers are in about ten to fifteen years

606
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: going to be eighty percent. Right, And looking at all

607
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: the things that dynamics that are happening religiously around the world,

608
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: the spiritual epicenter of Christianity, the center of gravity of

609
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: Christianity has shifted to Africa. I don't know how many

610
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 2: Anglicans know this, but last week there was the biggest

611
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: split in the history of the Anglican Church. Happened last

612
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: week whereby there was what they call the Global Anglican

613
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 2: Communion broke away from the Anglican Church, the Church of England.

614
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: This Global Anglican Communion is headed by Africans. They carry

615
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: eighty percent of the Anglicans in the world within their congregations,

616
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: and they decided to move away from the Church of

617
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: England because the Africans believe that the Anglican Church, the

618
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: Church of England, is no longer the true church. Right.

619
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: So now spiritual in more ways than one, spirituality from

620
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: this moment onwards, as we know it, Christianity is in

621
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: the hands of Africans. The cycle of spirituality has shifted

622
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: from the West to the South, and now from this

623
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: point onwards that way, and it's not something that is coming.

624
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: We're here now. The look, the identity, the character, the

625
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: shape of Christianity from this point onwards is going to

626
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: be decided by Africans, right And I don't know what

627
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: that means to people that from now on we will

628
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: never be able to say or associate Christianity with the West.

629
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: The West has in many ways lost credibility. The mask

630
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: has fallen off, you know, as the Prime Minister of

631
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,479
Speaker 2: Canada said, you know, it's not even a pretense anymore.

632
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: The world order has shifted, you know, the West does

633
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: not no longer holds the moral high ground for anything.

634
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 2: Because every day we switch on our television, we go online,

635
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: and we see what the West is doing, you know,

636
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: so now they look the face of Christianity, the face

637
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: of faith will no longer be associated with the with

638
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: the Western world. And now the question is now that

639
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: we are here, it is like Africa's moment has actually arrived,

640
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: our spiritual moment that we thought was going to come

641
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 2: one day Africa will rise. Actually it is here. And

642
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: the tricky part about it is that we do not

643
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 2: get here through merit. We get here through cycles, because

644
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 2: human society is governed by cycles. Civilizations rise and form right,

645
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 2: power moves from this place to shift. It's like winter.

646
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: You know, winter right now is in another country. It's

647
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: going to come here. So now we are in our

648
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: moment and whether or not it is going to work

649
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: in a particular way, or rather, what Christianity is going

650
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: to mean to humanity is now going to be decided

651
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: by Africans. And the question is what are they going

652
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: to do about it?

653
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 8: One Englement and your guest, this is what you see here.

654
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 8: I've got a question for your guest on religion. I mean,

655
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 8: I was born forty years ago into a Christian family,

656
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 8: and I now have a child who's now ten, who's

657
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 8: starting to understand what religions and that. So what I

658
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 8: would like to know is when I grew up, I

659
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 8: understood that, you know, I'm Christian because when I was

660
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 8: born my parents were Christian and that so at what

661
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 8: age do we allow kids to then choose what they

662
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 8: want to be? Because I'm also raising my son as

663
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 8: Christian because that's what I was raised is And I mean,

664
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 8: what should I wait for him to ten eighteen and

665
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 8: then he says this is what I want to follow.

666
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 8: It's a bit confusing for me. When does one choose that?

667
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 8: Now you know, I'm gonna let my kids choose what

668
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 8: he wants, thank you.

669
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 9: Hi, Clement when it comes to speciality, and I'm a Christian,

670
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 9: so I find that, as your guesses, the relationship is

671
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 9: presumed to be transactional. When I do this, God to

672
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 9: do that. But I think in my work with God,

673
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 9: which is Jehovah, God of the Bible, I've come to

674
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 9: redize that we're not taught much about his sovereign power,

675
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 9: meaning God does what he wants when he wants it.

676
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 9: And I mean maybe for me, that's what explains some

677
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 9: of the answers that we get opposite. If you pray

678
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 9: for hitting when someone doesn't get healed, then God has

679
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 9: decided that person has to go or start, you know,

680
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 9: like that. Like's not it shouldn't be like I do this,

681
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 9: God does that. God does what he knows is best.

682
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 9: That's when I think, for me, I need to trust

683
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 9: in his sovereign powers, to sovereignty that when something happens

684
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 9: in a way that I did not want to happen,

685
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 9: that's when I come to the point of that His

686
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 9: will be done, because that's a prayer that we pray

687
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 9: that His will be done, that his kingdom come. So

688
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 9: I think as Christians, I find that we're not talked

689
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 9: much about his sovereign power, that he decides he has

690
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 9: a final Wait. Okay, that's how I understand it was

691
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 9: the problem.

692
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: Could it be for assumes that we and please let's

693
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: not forget that question about at what age do you

694
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: then introduce religion? But I'm interested in this comment as well.

695
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: Could it be that part of the reason is we

696
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: think God is an emotional god? Or you know, I

697
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: listened to on your podcast the first time you did

698
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: a live show. You had all these guests, and I

699
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 1: listened to gogle or brimaticly yes, and he said something

700
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: so profound. He said, as human beings, we have created

701
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: our own god. He says, there's a god who exists,

702
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: there's a source, a creator of all that. We are

703
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: incapable as humans to understand and fantom what that creator

704
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: looks like. But as human beings, because we are for

705
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: we're always trying to survive, andand we've created our god.

706
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: That's why we've given him an identity and a gender.

707
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: We've given him a gender, We've given him all these

708
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: characteristics because that's how we survive. We have to relate

709
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: with something we are uncomfortable as humans to relate with

710
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: a thing we don't understand it. And I thought that

711
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: was so profound, and which is why I'm asking now

712
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: maybe we actually have given this god an identity, that

713
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: he's an emotional god. That's why we think, Okay, I

714
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: can go fast and beg him for one, two, three,

715
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: But what if it doesn't happen.

716
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: I can share something else that he shared with me

717
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 2: in our conversations. And we're talking about ancestors, and he says,

718
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: when you, when Gorku comes to your Unkuluo comes to you,

719
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: he comes to you in that form, because that's what

720
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: makes sense to you. He's like, if they were to

721
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: come to you in spirit, in the actual spiritual form,

722
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: you wouldn't even know what you're looking at, you know,

723
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: So we needed we create that interface. And in many ways, God,

724
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: the being God also understands that human beings do need

725
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 2: an interfings. That's why you have all these different religious

726
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: leaders like Jesus, like Buddha, like you know, all around

727
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: the world, because we don't. Human beings were built in

728
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 2: such a way that we need for things to look

729
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: like us for us to be able to relate to it.

730
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 2: If God came in the shape that we don't understand,

731
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 2: or Jesus was in the shape that we didn't understand,

732
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: we would not be able to relate. That's why, you know,

733
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: when people have pets, they're like, oh, you know, the

734
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: more human like the dog is, the more we seem

735
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 2: to love the dog, like, oh, he can listen, he

736
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: can talk, he can do this thing, you know, because

737
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 2: that's what makes us comfortable. So in the question of

738
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: what age to introduce religion to a child, I believe

739
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: that your child was already introduced to God. Wait before

740
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: you said anything, because your child is watching you every day.

741
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: Your child is watching you, how you how you deal

742
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: with things.

743
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 1: Do you pray?

744
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: You can't tell the child, no, Jesus is Lord, but

745
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: it doesn't show in your life. You are going to

746
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: teach your child the thing that you are, whether you

747
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 2: want or not. The things that you're going to say

748
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: are only going to be secondary if you when you

749
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 2: are facing challenges and you go and pray and you

750
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: bring God into the different situations in your life. That's

751
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: how your child is learning about those you've already it

752
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: has already happened, right. So at the question of the age,

753
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 2: it's not about the age. From birth. You're teaching your

754
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: child about God because that's your God. What you can do, person,

755
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 2: what I believe that you can explain to your child

756
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: your beliefs. Explain to them. We are Christian because this

757
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: is what makes sense to me. We are going to

758
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: go to church. This is what makes sense to me.

759
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 2: When you're older, you can then choose. But because how

760
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: we function, how I let's say, as a father in

761
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: a family or as a father even outside of a

762
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: f I can say this is how I live my life.

763
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 2: Don't say we believe in this, but you don't live

764
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: by it. You can't say this is how I live

765
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 2: my life. These are the principles, are the spiritual principles,

766
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: and this is the role that they play in my life. Yeah, okay, oh,

767
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 2: I can't believe the time is up. Lies.

768
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: Can I take just five minutes of your time? After

769
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: the years, please just five minutes of your time to

770
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: wrap up this conversation properly. I'm loving it, and I

771
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: know a lot of our listeners are enjoying it too.

772
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: It's a minute before eleven, teller, Sure, thank you for

773
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: staying with us. I want us to wrap up exploring

774
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: spirituality with VASUMSI nnder ish when you have these conversations

775
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: you wish you were having them for two hours, right,

776
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: the only scheduled for an hour. So I just want

777
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: to take just five minutes of assumes time to just

778
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: go through some of the messages you've said, and we

779
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: wrap up this conversation. But don't worry, he's gonna be

780
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: with us every single month. Once a month, we're gonna

781
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: bring him to have a chat with us as we

782
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: explore this concept of spirituality together. So let's go to

783
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: some what's the voice notes that you also sent on

784
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: seven two seven O two one seven or.

785
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 10: Two Clement, fascinating and emotive topic. Thanks for bringing up quickly.

786
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,959
Speaker 10: Our religions are a function of who colonized us. If

787
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 10: we were colonized by the people who chloralize, the so

788
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 10: called Francophone and the British colonized aperth Africa, you know

789
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 10: that we would be wearing those stresses doing Islam. So

790
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 10: it is a function of who colonizes you. But most importantly,

791
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 10: we must all remember that Christianity especially was a vehicle

792
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 10: for the imperialistic ambitions of the racists who wanted to

793
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 10: do as they place with us and with our resources.

794
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 10: We all know that in also of religious history are

795
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 10: just littered with blood and corra and racism. So that

796
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 10: is the most important thing to have uppermost in our mind.

797
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 3: Clement, Clement, I must give it to you great show. Clement,

798
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: I agree with your guest. There is a direct correlation

799
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: between poverty and religion. The poorest countries in the world,

800
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 3: the poorest people in the world, tend to be more religious. True,

801
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: there is an exception, America, for example, very religious. However,

802
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: if you look at the countries that enjoy the highest

803
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 3: standard of living in the world, the Nordic and Scandinavian countries.

804
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 3: Those countries are not religious at all, yet the people

805
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 3: enjoy prosperity.

806
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: Thank you, good.

807
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 11: Morning, Clement and seven or two listeners Lemovassan in my studio.

808
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 11: You're talking a topic, Clement. Yeah, that is very sensitive.

809
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: Clement.

810
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 11: I intend to agree with what Vos is saying based

811
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 11: on on the spiritual belief that we have as people.

812
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 11: It's it's it's just that its systematic, as a Vos

813
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 11: is saying, there is systematic to it.

814
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: Yet you find people.

815
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 11: People in in in in developed countries, you never hear

816
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 11: them praying for God helped me to pay my rent,

817
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 11: to take my child to to to school, or help

818
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 11: school his money. Because they developed countries, they are already

819
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 11: supply that he in the southern countries a year people

820
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 11: saying praying for paying rent, praying for work, that is systematic.

821
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: I do agree with Marcusani.

822
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 11: It's met from Hanyed.

823
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. We've got so many many other

824
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: water voice notes that we can't get through too, but

825
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: we see, how about we do part two. Let's do this. Yeah,

826
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: can you just wrap it all up for us, just

827
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: the last word from what you've heard, and then we

828
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: will when you come back next month, we'll do part

829
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: two of this conversation and pick up from where we

830
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: left off.

831
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 2: I'll take the last message now where we say that

832
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: the Western countries, the Scandinavian countries, the Western countries are

833
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: not religious, and the countries that have a lot of

834
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: poverty are more religious. The question is who brought those

835
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: that poverty to those African countries, who created that system

836
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: whereby we need to pray for it. The system that

837
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 2: those people built are benefiting from it. The people who

838
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: brought us the religion are benefiting from the system that

839
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: created the poverty that we live in. So the fact

840
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 2: that those countries are less religious is not a reflection

841
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: of spirituality itself, but it is a reflection of the

842
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: system that they built right in that it does not

843
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: exonerate them. The wealth of the West is built on

844
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: the destruction of the global South and the expectation of

845
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 2: the global suce. So we absolutely cannot see the wealth

846
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 2: of the West and say there's some kind of moral achievement,

847
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: because it's not.

848
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: They have.

849
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: The reason they don't have to pay pray for rent

850
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 2: is because they're taking all our resources. So that does

851
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 2: not ever think that we can equate the idea of

852
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: being being more affluent and less religious as a common

853
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: as a kind of a moral achievement, because it's not right.

854
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: So another thing that we have to remember is that

855
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: now we've been talking about history, what it happened, and

856
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: I want to emphasize that now Christianity is literally now

857
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: in the hands of Africans and what are Africans going

858
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: to do about it?

859
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: That's it for Sumsi, thank you so much for joining us.

860
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: This was exploring spirituality with for Sumsi Manda. Go check

861
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: out the podcast if you want to follow up on

862
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: this conversation, but go check out his part cast as well.

863
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: He's got a podcast, Jenny gwan To exploring African spirituality

864
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: and identity. He's got a book as well titled Jenny

865
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: guan Do. I've listened to the podcast, I've read the book.

866
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: I thought they were so insightful. So if you're interested

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00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,959
Speaker 1: to really learn, you know, and not from someone who

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00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: is being prescriptive to you about what you should believe in,

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Speaker 1: who is who is open minded? You want to listen

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Speaker 1: to that podcast or get yourself that book by Vasumsei.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, brother, See you next time.