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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk little.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by ABS Corporate and Investment Banking, proud sponsors of GTR

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Speaker 3: Africa twenty twenty six Enabling Trade Flows for Growth is

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Speaker 3: a registered FSP. Good evening, Welcome to the program. Eight

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Speaker 3: minutes after six. I'm Stephen Hourtis. I've got quite a

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Speaker 3: bit to say about Brent Burzel, the US ambassador tonight,

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Speaker 3: but I think I should probably start with oil prices

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Speaker 3: and the latest they're still hovering around ninety dollars a

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Speaker 3: barrel tonight. Lots of war talk coming from Iran, as

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Speaker 3: you would expect, I suppose if you were being attacked,

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Speaker 3: if you were the subject of war talk from Washington.

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Speaker 3: That Iran basically saying get ready for oil at two

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Speaker 3: hundred dollars a barrel. It's been firing on merchant ships

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Speaker 3: in the Gulf. It's effectively, I think, almost becoming kind

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Speaker 3: of de facto blockaded. People just can't move. There's a

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Speaker 3: huge amount of oil on chips in that area. They

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Speaker 3: can't get through the strait of humors. The US not

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Speaker 3: yet saying that it'll actually be able to provide military

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Speaker 3: escorts and navy escorts. At the same time, you've got

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Speaker 3: the International Energy Agency saying they'll release fuel stocks to

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Speaker 3: try and bring prices down. And then on top of

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Speaker 3: all of that, you've got the fact that some of

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Speaker 3: our airlines the first really to raise prices, Airlink and

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Speaker 3: fly Saffa. You can't blame them, I would imagine, otherwise

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Speaker 3: they're just going to lose money. And I mean we

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Speaker 3: sort of wait with some I don't know fear to

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Speaker 3: see what's going to happen in a couple of weeks

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Speaker 3: from now. What's said three weeks from now in petrol

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Speaker 3: prices I'm sure will go up. And there's something very

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Speaker 3: dramatic happens. The other story just developing now breaking in

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Speaker 3: the last few moments, the International Relations mister Ronald Lamola

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Speaker 3: saying that they've issued Brent Bozell, the US ambassador, with

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Speaker 3: the demas he only received his credentials, which meant he

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Speaker 3: was only officially accepted as an ambassador I think two

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Speaker 3: weeks ago now, so that must be I think, in

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Speaker 3: South African diplomatic terms, a record. Essentially, as I understand

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Speaker 3: the timeline, this is what happened. Brent Brazil was speaking

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Speaker 3: at a bus news conference yesterday, he said the kilbb

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Speaker 3: were chant was hate speech, and then and I think

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Speaker 3: this is the issue, he said he didn't care about

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Speaker 3: our court rulings, it was hate speech. And now look,

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Speaker 3: he backtracked on that today on X he said he

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Speaker 3: has a personal view that that chance is hate speech,

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Speaker 3: but that he respects our courts. Ronald Lamla the minister

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Speaker 3: issuing him with a demash anyway, I have to say,

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Speaker 3: to my mind, this was entirely inevitable. If you look

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Speaker 3: at Romopauls's comments in the interview he did with New

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Speaker 3: York Times just while he was in the US with

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Speaker 3: the funeral of Jesse Jackson. This was over the weekend,

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Speaker 3: and you look at how angry actually Romapausa clearly was

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Speaker 3: and how he was treated in the Oval Office. If

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Speaker 3: you look at it, if you remember how our prison

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Speaker 3: was treated in the Oval Office, well why not. If

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Speaker 3: you look at how our ambassador was kicked out for

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Speaker 3: commenting on their internal affairs, why not would go the

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Speaker 3: argument and politically for Roma Pousa, I can't see how

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Speaker 3: you would lose. I mean, I realize it doesn't help

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Speaker 3: our relationship with the US. I realize there's a lot

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Speaker 3: at play. But if you decide, and if you take

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Speaker 3: the view that actually the US is not a reliable

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Speaker 3: trading partner, that we need to sort of move away anyway,

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Speaker 3: then why not They've done itto US three miles or

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Speaker 3: do something similar to them, and you could argue that

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Speaker 3: it's proportional. I'll be very keen to hear from you

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Speaker 3: on this. Have we done the right thing in issuing

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Speaker 3: Brent Bazell, the US ambassador with a demash seven two

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Speaker 3: seven oh two one seven oh two. Are you worried

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Speaker 3: about the economic impact? Very happy to hear from you

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Speaker 3: on that too, on a double one double a three

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Speaker 3: seven oh two and two one four four six o

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Speaker 3: five six seven. But talk about the JAS and what

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Speaker 3: might be the misallocation of capital sounds like something out

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Speaker 3: of textbook that I suppose is because I think it

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Speaker 3: first was. But it's about why so many companies Dalist.

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Speaker 3: We'll talked to Mie Lennie Holeni, the municipal governance expert.

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Speaker 3: I was not surprised, but I should have been surprised

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Speaker 3: to see that on the list of fourteen councils Eskim

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Speaker 3: is taking new steps against Ekrouleni, A metro of that

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Speaker 3: size was among them. Votadevett is the chief operating officer

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Speaker 3: at Rainbow Chicken. You'll hear from him at twenty to

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Speaker 3: seven that a rarely strong half. And then stan to Clack,

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Speaker 3: the CEO of Growth Point Properties. Very interested to talk

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Speaker 3: to him tonight, particularly interested in what's happening with their

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Speaker 3: Santon Properties. Good to hear from you. It's twelve after

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Speaker 3: twelve after six.

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Speaker 4: The Lenny Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two

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Speaker 4: point seven and one o six f M streaming on

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Speaker 4: the Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 2: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 3: Look forward to your views on Brent burzil Well. An

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Speaker 3: important piece of research being published this week. It gets

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Speaker 3: to the heart of the best way for companies to

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Speaker 3: get capital, to grow and in the end, to create jobs.

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Speaker 3: It's a study that deals with some why so many

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Speaker 3: companies have delisted from the JAC. It also finds, and

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Speaker 3: I didn't know this, that come companies have delisted from

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Speaker 3: the JAS at nearly twice the global average. Professor Harun

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Speaker 3: Brat is the person who led that research. He's a

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Speaker 3: Professor of Economics at the University of Johannesburg. Excuse me,

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Speaker 3: the University of Captain listened to me, harun good evening.

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Speaker 3: Forgive me. Why are companies delisting from the JAC more

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Speaker 3: than companies in other places? Is there something I suppose

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Speaker 3: different about our context?

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Speaker 5: Yes, thank you very much.

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Speaker 6: Even so, I think just to put the data in

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Speaker 6: more careful context a lot of So we ran comparisons

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Speaker 6: of what we call net new listings as a share

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Speaker 6: of market caps, so we control for size of company

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Speaker 6: as well as new listings, so not just a simple

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Speaker 6: count of delistings. We compare the JAS to global exchanges,

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Speaker 6: a collection of all global exchanges for the period ninety

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Speaker 6: seven through to twenty twenty one, and over that period

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Speaker 6: we find that the mean value of the listings net listings,

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Speaker 6: if you like, for the global sample is positive and

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Speaker 6: for the JC is negative, but very similar to each

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Speaker 6: other in the post two thousand and five period. That's

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Speaker 6: a really important result. So most of the divergence where

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Speaker 6: you get higher rates of the listings if you like,

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Speaker 6: by market cap, is driven by the ninety seven to

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Speaker 6: two thousand and five periods. I think that's a very

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Speaker 6: important distinction that in the post two thousand and five period,

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Speaker 6: our performance is relatively similar to a global sample of exchanges.

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Speaker 3: I mean when I hear two thousand and five, I think, well,

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Speaker 3: three years later, there was the start of the global

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Speaker 3: economic crisis. The reason that things change as a result

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Speaker 3: of that was there another factor yea.

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Speaker 6: So we have a collection of factors, right, and they

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Speaker 6: are related variously to what we call sort of firm

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Speaker 6: level factors. So firms that were largest seem to have

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Speaker 6: stayed on the exchange, firms that have in other words,

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Speaker 6: higher market cap, firms that were more profitable, firms that

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Speaker 6: had higher sort of leaverdge, so they're seeking capital market

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Speaker 6: access through the JC. Strong GDP growth was important. So

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Speaker 6: all of those factors kick in macro factors as well

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Speaker 6: as firm specific factors that drive the full period analysis.

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Speaker 6: Now that the distinction between pre and post two thousand

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Speaker 6: and five is a difficult one, we think it's partly

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Speaker 6: to do with reorganization of the JAC in the sort

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Speaker 6: of post ninety four period when we are now a

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Speaker 6: normal functioning, small, open economy and firms start to reorganize,

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Speaker 6: And it's also partly the idea that you can seek

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Speaker 6: capital elsewhere outside of the JAC, and once those sort

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Speaker 6: of let's call it those systemic forces work their way through,

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Speaker 6: by the mid two thousands, you see a relatively similar

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Speaker 6: pattern of de listings on the JC compared to other exchanges.

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Speaker 6: If I could just add with one final concluding a

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Speaker 6: comment on that Stephen, is that we find also though

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Speaker 6: that market concentration on the JC, so concentration levels on

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Speaker 6: the JC.

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Speaker 7: Have gone up.

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Speaker 6: And that's a really you know, in the same way

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Speaker 6: that a product market can have fewer and fewer firms

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Speaker 6: in a market, you find that what we call the

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Speaker 6: index of concentration on the JAC has actually gone up.

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Speaker 3: I mean that I would imagine would not actually be

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Speaker 3: healthy for an economy or for an index. It's not.

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Speaker 6: And even though the trend is upwards for most exchanges

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Speaker 6: around the world, what it does suggest is access to

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Speaker 6: capital is either being diverted away from listed exchanges and

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Speaker 6: found elsewhere, which not necessarily a bad thing. So private

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Speaker 6: equity and other sort of capital markets are not in

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Speaker 6: the listed space are available to firms as part of

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Speaker 6: the reason for South Africa, But I think the other

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Speaker 6: reason is that you've got a low growth rate that

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Speaker 6: is not encouraging small innovative firms to actually access these

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Speaker 6: listed exchanges in a way that you perhaps find in

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Speaker 6: say the US market, very similar in some ways to

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Speaker 6: what's happening in Europe.

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Speaker 3: I think so the companies that then delisted, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's probably impossible in one sort of report to work

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Speaker 3: out what happened to them, which was better. But it's

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Speaker 3: interesting that successful companies are the ones that stayed. I

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Speaker 3: suppose what I'm trying to get to is it was

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Speaker 3: capital then, is when so many companies dealist doesn't suggest

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Speaker 3: that capital was being allocated inefficiently in some way?

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Speaker 6: In some way, yes, in some ways that the race

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Speaker 6: to index funds, the race to secure returns, if you like,

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Speaker 6: without without sort of high standard deviation in returns, which

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Speaker 6: are risky investments for asset holders, means that small cap

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Speaker 6: stocks are overlooked. You've got a constraint on cell side research,

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Speaker 6: so you've got cell side research that is not really

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Speaker 6: flourishing for small caps in South Africa. And so what

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Speaker 6: you find is a capital market that is far more

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Speaker 6: diverted towards secure large cap firms and see them as

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Speaker 6: the route to investment channels. Now, why that's bad is

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Speaker 6: that you know, in any growth model from Solo's time

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Speaker 6: right the great mit economists, innovation drove growth in the

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Speaker 6: long run, and innovation comes through taking risk through firms

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Speaker 6: that you invest in that are risky bets, and some

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Speaker 6: of them, by their nature many of them will actually

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Speaker 6: fail and others won't. And it's the idea that they

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Speaker 6: have of easier access to capital through listed exchanges for

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Speaker 6: one that other markets that's critical for growth. So in

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Speaker 6: simple terms, it's not it's not a good thing that

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Speaker 6: we've got growing concentration levels, and it's not a good

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Speaker 6: thing that it's only the larger or to mainly mark

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Speaker 6: larger market cap firms and dominant firms that have stayed

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Speaker 6: in the exchange.

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Speaker 3: The JC has been going through a process of making

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Speaker 3: it easier to list, making making the entire process a

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Speaker 3: bit more simple. At the same time, it obviously needs

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Speaker 3: to make sure that that trading is sort of responsible.

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Speaker 3: Is it possible to know if that has any impact

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Speaker 3: over the longer term? It would seem fact as perhaps

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Speaker 3: outside their control are probably more to blame.

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Speaker 6: So I think so the new the new sort of

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Speaker 6: you know, there's lower initial listing fees and tax credits

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Speaker 6: that the JC is looking at that definitely, and that's

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Speaker 6: a new regulation and a new change in in in

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Speaker 6: in listing sort of in the listing domain. I think

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Speaker 6: that's something we can look at and the study in fact,

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Speaker 6: in our engagement in presenting this, we noted exactly that

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Speaker 6: that going forward, one of the things to look at

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Speaker 6: is what is the impact of these new regulations from

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Speaker 6: the JC on net new listings. And just to keep

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Speaker 6: in mind again, yes you do want to focus on regulation,

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Speaker 6: but as you allude to, it's far more than that,

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Speaker 6: and a lot of it is beyond at least based

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Speaker 6: in our evidence, is beyond the control of the JC,

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Speaker 6: such as US GDP or South African GDP, rates business confidence,

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Speaker 6: the policy uncertainty, all of those do feed into the

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Speaker 6: propensity to dealist.

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Speaker 3: Professor, thank you very much, indeed ready to appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Professor Harun Boat is professor of economics at the University

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Speaker 3: of Cape Town's on the Money Show six to eight

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Speaker 3: pm twenty one after six Well an important report in

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Speaker 3: Money where today detailing I think for the first time

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Speaker 3: the fourteen councils that ESKIM is considering interrupting services to

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Speaker 3: because they haven't paid. One of them is Ekrolenni. You know,

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Speaker 3: a massive metro ESKIM started the process of asking stakeholders

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Speaker 3: to comment. I think what that's probably going to mean

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Speaker 3: is that councils might find themselves being asked to explain

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Speaker 3: why they haven't paid ESKUM the money they owe it. Lenni.

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Speaker 3: Lenni is an expert in municipal governance. Meelani, good evening,

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Speaker 3: Thanks for your time. So these councils haven't paid ESKIM.

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Speaker 3: I suppose some of them probably never really had the resources.

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Speaker 3: But have they not been receiving help from government before?

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Speaker 3: I mean, has there been efforts to sort of help

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Speaker 3: them before ESCOM got to this point.

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Speaker 8: Definitely the good evening, Stiven and good evening to the listeners.

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Speaker 8: It's actually a position which a lot of the municipalities

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Speaker 8: may find themselves there unknowingly or at least unwillingly, or

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Speaker 8: not even designed you know the currents each Yes, there

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Speaker 8: has been help from especially from National Treasury. There also

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Speaker 8: have been interventions from the provincial government to try and

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Speaker 8: support particularly the revenue collection, because that's where everything rises

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Speaker 8: and falls within some of these municipalities. However, to see

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Speaker 8: a city such as Echo Roline being part of this list,

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Speaker 8: I think they shouldn't be there. They have been before

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Speaker 8: one of the strongest municipalities from a revenue generation point

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Speaker 8: of view, and had a very strong balance sheet, you know,

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Speaker 8: match Wave going slightly back five years.

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Speaker 7: To ten years.

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Speaker 8: So I think it's something that you know, a lot

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Speaker 8: of these municipalities, the fourteen that remained there out of

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Speaker 8: the almost if I remember the number, almost forty of

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Speaker 8: these municipalities are perhaps the ones that you know are

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Speaker 8: now in a very dre situation.

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Speaker 3: I mean, surely Escum's never going to be allowed to

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Speaker 3: search of Echo Leneu. I mean, I think we know that.

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Speaker 3: But what they are doing with this process, I mean

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Speaker 3: they call it a Pajer Process Promotion of Access to

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Speaker 3: Justice Act. It will be very public. This is gonna,

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Speaker 3: I would like to think, massively embarrassing for the leadership

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Speaker 3: of these councils.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, And I think the issue here is that one

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Speaker 8: of the things that some of us, you know, including myself,

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Speaker 8: would have said, why does the National Treasury just pay

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Speaker 8: the ESCOM directly and end this pain that the consumer,

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Speaker 8: the customers suppose would feel. Unfortunately, the division of revenue

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Speaker 8: brushed up on it again does not allow for such

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Speaker 8: you know movements you know, directly to pay from the

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Speaker 8: fiscuss you know whoever is owing the other So the

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Speaker 8: unfortunately there has to be protected and there will be

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Speaker 8: a protected process, including the PAJA process. But the other

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Speaker 8: process that should be followed, and I think it's almost

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Speaker 8: the exhausted exhausted, is the intercovernmental relations process, which is

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Speaker 8: in place allowed for in the constitution. So that hasn't

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Speaker 8: quite worked. The last you know of the issues should

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Speaker 8: have been litigation where some of those municipalities you know

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Speaker 8: ESCORM litigates against those municipalities, and this would be I

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Speaker 8: suppose government fighting against government. But I think the issue

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Speaker 8: of getting the cities and involved perhaps you know, can

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Speaker 8: put pressure on those municipalities. But if I look at

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Speaker 8: a municipality like Nala in the in the Free State,

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Speaker 8: I think, you know, there is absolutely no hope that

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Speaker 8: they will cover the one point two billion which they

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Speaker 8: owe to ESCORB because of their size and lack of economy.

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Speaker 8: And I don't think there's many of those customers that

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Speaker 8: you know would be able to afford to pay such

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Speaker 8: you know a debt, you know, So this has been

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Speaker 8: unfortunately left over a very long period of time where

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Speaker 8: ESCOMB was not enforcing but when the chips were down

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Speaker 8: and they have to now enforce their payment, which could

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Speaker 8: have been done paths, you know, five ten years ago.

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Speaker 3: I mean obviously we know smaller councils. I mean, at

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Speaker 3: some point there's going to have to be a process

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Speaker 3: to deal with that because it causes all sorts of issues.

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Speaker 3: So ESKIM is now trying to get the money that

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Speaker 3: it's owed. One of the ways it can do that

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Speaker 3: is I understand it, is it can take the money

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Speaker 3: from the customers directly, so it can control the account

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Speaker 3: that customers pay their money into. And I know the

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Speaker 3: Local Government Association SELGA hates that idea. If ESKIM does that,

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Speaker 3: won't it just end up controlling that money forever. Councils

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Speaker 3: would never get control of the system back because well,

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Speaker 3: from what I can see, I don't see much prospect

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Speaker 3: of them improving.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, And I think that's what it is. That electricity

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Speaker 8: traditionally has always been one of the highest revenue earners,

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Speaker 8: in fact the number one revenue earner for municipalities, which

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Speaker 8: has been changing over the years. So if you or

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Speaker 8: anyone takes hold of the electricity revenue, that's it. The

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Speaker 8: municipality has no way of even across such that dies

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Speaker 8: in some of the lesser sort of revenue generating line items.

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Speaker 8: And I think in this case, you know, you take

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Speaker 8: a municipality like Mafube which has been sitting with a

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Speaker 8: private company which is collecting revenue on their own behalf

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Speaker 8: if you want to pay themselves before they can pay

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Speaker 8: the municipality, it has absolutely crippled the municipality. So if

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Speaker 8: ESCOM goes that route, then it has the potential of

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Speaker 8: crippling Benta municipality unless if there is maturity between the

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Speaker 8: institutions to look at how the total death of that

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Speaker 8: municipality can then be collected using electricity as a means.

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Speaker 8: Even if ESCORM you know, gets involved.

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Speaker 7: I know, there's the.

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Speaker 8: Electricity Distribution Agency Agreement which ESCORM is signed with about

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Speaker 8: three or four of the municipalities, which effectively takes over

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Speaker 8: those services which in the short term to medium term

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Speaker 8: or perhaps in the long term would be beneficial, but

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Speaker 8: rather the short to medium term would not benefit necessarily

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Speaker 8: those unicipalities, but long term hopefully they could support you know,

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Speaker 8: those municipalities with the maintenance of infrastructure, new bills, and

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Speaker 8: all of those things that they would require to strengthen

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Speaker 8: their electricity service.

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Speaker 3: Milani Holenni, thanks so much, really appreciated the experts and

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Speaker 3: municipal governance there. Twenty seven minutes after.

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Speaker 2: Six the Money Show, the market.

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Speaker 3: Chris here is a portfolio manager at ninety one. We

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Speaker 3: could probably discuss the whole market, Chris, using one word,

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Speaker 3: oil man has had an impact today and yesterday, yeah.

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Speaker 9: And the day before and tomorrow, and so it goes on.

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Speaker 9: The oil price is obviously a critical driver of the

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Speaker 9: world economy, whether we like it or not. Still, oil

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Speaker 9: drives inflation. Inflation drives interest rates, and interest rates drive

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Speaker 9: certainly consumer economic activity and consumer economic activity and indeed

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Speaker 9: corporate activity drives the world economy. So you know, the

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Speaker 9: sort of volatility we are seeing in oil price is unhelpful.

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Speaker 9: And you know, with the oil price up as much

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Speaker 9: as it is, you know, all bets off with regard

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Speaker 9: to interest rates, monetary policy is carrying a high degree

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Speaker 9: of uncertainty and as a result that we're seeing massive

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Speaker 9: amounts of volatility in markets. We saw the oil price today,

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Speaker 9: you know, reacting to a variety of forces, certainly the

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Speaker 9: Iranians saying they will do everything in their power to disrupt.

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Speaker 9: And you've seen headlines of you know, the world at

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Speaker 9: two hundred dollars oil. You've seen the International Energy Agency

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Speaker 9: authorizing an immediate release of four hundred million barrels oil

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Speaker 9: from the strategic reserves. That's the biggest authorized release in

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Speaker 9: history as far as I can remember, and double the

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Speaker 9: amount that they authorized at the time that Russia invaded

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Speaker 9: Ukraine a.

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Speaker 7: Couple of years back.

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Speaker 9: So you know, massive amounts of volitiles, lots of lots

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Speaker 9: of factors driving the oil price. And I can't remember

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Speaker 9: a day.

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Speaker 7: Someone on phone in and correct me.

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Speaker 9: But it feels as though there hasn't been a day

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Speaker 9: where the oil price is not moved at least five

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Speaker 9: percent in one direction or another.

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Speaker 7: And that's making life pretty difficult.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the issue is what do you do? And

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Speaker 3: Bloomberg quoting Jeff Curry at Carlisle Energy Pathways in the

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Speaker 3: US saying no policy response can stop crude oil as ascent,

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Speaker 3: even if there's a ceasefire, and he says, and that's

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Speaker 3: because ships are in the wrong place. Insurance is canceled.

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Speaker 3: Some of the field that oil fields have now been shut.

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Speaker 3: I mean that's a serious comment.

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Speaker 9: I think that's quite right, and that's just covering the fundamentals.

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Speaker 7: If you then look at the sort of risk premia.

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Speaker 9: That are going to get built into the oil price

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Speaker 9: even if things settle down, you know, I think corporate

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Speaker 9: memory or people's memories are relatively long and even a

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Speaker 9: semblance of normalcy returning to the markets, I don't think

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Speaker 9: we see oil going back to where a fundamental supply

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Speaker 9: and demand model might dictate. There's going to be elements

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Speaker 9: of risk premium still built into the oil price for

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Speaker 9: quite some time to come very quickly.

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Speaker 3: How many gold today? They have their update. Their gold

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Speaker 3: production was down, their earnings obviously up very strongly.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, earnings up very strongly, but not as strongly as

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Speaker 9: their peers. They did guide that, I think trading gardens

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Speaker 9: on Monday as to where earnings would come, and earnings

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Speaker 9: came in in fact in the lower half of the range,

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Speaker 9: which is unusual called a four production of calendar twenty

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Speaker 9: twenty five. Remember they've got a junior end, so we're

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Speaker 9: talking about their first half was a very poor quarter

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Speaker 9: for production, low recoveries, stoppages, operational issues cyanide shortages which

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Speaker 9: made it difficult for them to extract gold metallurgic kalie,

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Speaker 9: so a big miss on production and as a result

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Speaker 9: of that a miss on costs. Also some negative one

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Speaker 9: of items around derivative losses, some acquisition costs around the

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Speaker 9: copper asset that they acquired in Australia and October last

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Speaker 9: years with some fair.

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Speaker 7: Value movements that was pretty negative.

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Speaker 9: I mean, all the golds we are today, Goldfields and

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Speaker 9: Angler Gold both going extill at in today as well,

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Speaker 9: which complicated things a little bit. But you know, at

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Speaker 9: minus eleven, Harmony significantly the worst performing gold stock on.

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Speaker 3: The day, Christia, thanks so much, portfolio manager at ninety one.

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Speaker 3: Just after six thirty, what's up, Stephen.

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Speaker 2: On seven two, seven oh two one seven.

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Speaker 3: Two twenty two minutes to seven the time? Okay, So

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Speaker 3: various things going on. Obviously, the demash Our government has

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Speaker 3: handed out to the US ambassador Brent Bazell just eight

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Speaker 3: days after or after really being sort of officially accredited

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Speaker 3: as the US ambassador. You've heard my piece on that,

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Speaker 3: the voice notes coming through on that on those seven

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Speaker 3: two seven oh two one seven or two. And then

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Speaker 3: also of course the conversation around ESK. I'm switching off

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Speaker 3: municipalities and how does that municipalities end up in this position?

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Speaker 3: Thoughts on that tonight.

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Speaker 5: Evening seven or two, John Rudeport, is can issue when

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Speaker 5: these municipalities take my money, what do they do with it?

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Speaker 3: Because if I don't pay my.

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Speaker 2: Electricity bill, I just get cut off. So it is

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Speaker 2: come's in the right to do this, But where does

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Speaker 2: my money go?

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Speaker 3: I mean, isn't that always the question with this right?

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Speaker 3: You pay your bills, you pay them to the council,

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Speaker 3: where does the money go from there? And for a

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Speaker 3: long time, electricity, as Milchleni explained, was used to kind

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Speaker 3: of fund other things. But you can't do that anymore

437
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 3: because the price of powers just got so high. The

438
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 3: whole mechanism is kind of falling apart. And I don't know.

439
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 3: I mean, I think people, very clever people somewhere are

440
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: thinking about how to fix it. But for the moment,

441
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 3: you just get a sense that the system is not working.

442
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen on seven O two, seven.

443
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: Twos, sixteen minutes to seven. The time, we've been talking

444
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 3: about oil, we've been talking about diplomacy, we've been talking

445
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: about electricity. Probably time to talk a little bit more

446
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: about chicken now and Rainbow Chickens announcing an extraordinary jump

447
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: in headline earnings. Actually, Rainbow Chicken things up over one

448
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: hundred and ten percent for the six months to the

449
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 3: end of December. There's been stronger demand for chicken feed

450
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: prices or maize prices. Really, I suppose we're lower because

451
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 3: of the Lanina rain over the period. Voter de Vet

452
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: is the chief operating officer at Rainbow Chicken. Voter, good evening,

453
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 3: Good to chat to you. I mean, obviously very impressive

454
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: figures for you. What went right? Your input costs were

455
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: lower and demand was strong and they both came together.

456
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, good evening, Steven, and thank you for the opportunity.

457
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 8: Yeah.

458
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 10: Probably after Turkey back five years, that's more or less

459
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 10: when you started this turnaround, rotach with Rainbow and obviously

460
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 10: we focused largely on what's under control, and you know,

461
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 10: the key focus with the engine rooms looking that the

462
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 10: chicken production and you know, we changed the breeding, the

463
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 10: proceeds the previous breed of kickenc we we're using. They

464
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 10: performing so over the five years, you know, the all

465
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 10: of that has been meticans improvement and we've basically started

466
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 10: a strategy. We've had some hidd a couple of years ago,

467
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 10: really bad here and intersperit group, and it's been exceptionally

468
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 10: high intercrossing rolestage systemologies. And yet you know in the

469
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 10: current period some of those have converted in to telvi.

470
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 7: Verter.

471
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to interrupt you. It sounds like you might

472
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 3: be on a speaker phone and we're actually not hearing

473
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: you as clearly as we would like. If you are

474
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 3: able to move to a handset, we would be very grateful,

475
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 3: thank you. Yeah, that's there with us now. It sounds

476
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 3: it sounds like you are you will all have been

477
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 3: placed on hold. Well, that was unexpected. Okay, well, let's

478
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: see if we're able to just get him back. I

479
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: suspect if we call him back we might find that

480
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: actually he is ready for us on the handset. It's

481
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 3: not the first interview to be interrupted in this way,

482
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 3: does happen. Let's se if we're able to just continue

483
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: the conversation with Vert Debt, the chief operating officer at

484
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: Rainbow Chicken, about what seems to be quite good results

485
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: voter welcome back. Apologies for that, not at allways, We're

486
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 3: getting you loud and clear. Now you were able to

487
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 3: also increase the sales of your chicken feed business, and

488
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 3: I mean that seems to be growing quite quickly. I

489
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: don't know what it's like to help your competitors, but

490
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 3: I mean, could that business maybe one day even stand

491
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: on its own.

492
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's an integral part of our business, Steven, So

493
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 10: you know we don't so we handle it as a

494
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 10: separate business, you know, I think that's a key part

495
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 10: of our strategy. You know, we we've basically split up

496
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 10: the business in terms of the different regions as well

497
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 10: to be all you know, was almost want to call

498
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 10: it standalone businesses, you know, looking after themselves in terms

499
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 10: of profit. So just coming back to the feed business,

500
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 10: I think what we've done successfully is to focus over

501
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 10: the last couple of years in terms of recovering back

502
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 10: to a better margin, an acceptable margin. And with that

503
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 10: margin in place, now we are in a position where

504
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 10: we can focus on good service, competitive feed.

505
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 8: You know what.

506
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 10: The performance of the feed is so important, you know,

507
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 10: so our customers definitely reap the benefits of our technicals

508
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 10: input into that. You know, there's a consistent supply and

509
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 10: you know, the good margins or healthy margins in that

510
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 10: feed business now combined with the growth is definitely unlocking

511
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 10: good value for us. Yes, you've also got a key impact. Sorry,

512
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 10: it's also got a key impact of our chicken business,

513
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 10: you know, because you need good, consistent supply of top

514
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 10: quality feed obviously.

515
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: No, sure you've doubled your production facility at Hammersdale, and

516
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 3: you also say that chicken production has increased price strongly

517
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: in South Africa. I mean, is there a risk that

518
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: you could be outgrowing your market.

519
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 10: It's a key question because you know, at the end

520
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 10: of the day, despite our best effort efforts to add

521
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 10: value where we can, it is still a commodity business chicken.

522
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 10: And if we are not respond well in the way

523
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 10: we grow, of course, you know, if there's an oversupply,

524
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 10: we will feel the pinch on the price side. So

525
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 10: I think what we've seen in recent years is responsible

526
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 10: growth in the market, and I think our strategy at

527
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 10: least is to at least grow in line with the

528
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 10: demand from our consumers and our quick service restaurant customers, etc. Yeah,

529
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 10: so our outlook on growth is a responsible one, in

530
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 10: line with the consumer growth.

531
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 7: I mean.

532
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: The problem is is that global trade patterns are changing

533
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: so quickly. I mean, the US would be a nice

534
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: market for example, and years ago as extended, but I

535
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 3: don't know if that can be really reliant on. I mean,

536
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: do you worry that maybe there wouldn't be many places

537
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: for you to export too?

538
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 10: So experts currently is a very very small percentage of

539
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 10: our production and South Africa's production. I think there's definitely

540
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 10: significant upside. You know, a recent study by BEFAB combined

541
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 10: with the University of Aarganinen in the Netherlands. I look

542
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 10: at all the big producing countries in the world and historically,

543
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 10: you know, we would definitely be in the top ten,

544
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 10: and we've gradually moved up. In the most recent one

545
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 10: in the last couple of months that's been released, we've

546
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 10: now passed America and we only second to Brazil in

547
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 10: terms of cost effectiveness of our production. So theoretically we

548
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 10: should be able to get into the market, but it's

549
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 10: not that simple. Our government needs to work with us

550
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 10: address all the veterinary requirements from different countries at secret

551
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 10: secret But the potential is definitely therefore to you know,

552
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 10: to unlock growth opportunities in the form of exports.

553
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: That's quite an exception achievement by our industry. Avian influenza,

554
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: bird flu a major risk for you we as you

555
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 3: know from recent experience, I mean devastating voter You say,

556
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 3: government's program to stop at the vaccination program. I suppose

557
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: it's just too expensive. What change do you think you need?

558
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 10: I think the Foot and Marth is a classic example,

559
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 10: you know, in terms of the regulations that in itself

560
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 10: as well, you know, for the cattle industry also had

561
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 10: a very heavy demand in terms of what's required, you know,

562
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 10: in terms of monitoring after you're vaccinated, et cetera, et cetera.

563
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 10: And what we've seen there is in a very short

564
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 10: space of time most of those have been lifted, and

565
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 10: I think we've seen a much more practical approach in

566
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 10: terms of making that happen, and obviously with significant financial support,

567
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 10: you know, to pay for the vaccines. So we will

568
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 10: need something similar. You know, if you don't vaccine on

569
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 10: a large scale, it is ineffective, and I think we've

570
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 10: seen some of our competitors starting to do that. But

571
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 10: I mean one example of the difficulty with vaccination is

572
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 10: you typically want to vaccinate your grandparents or your parents

573
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 10: flocks because they're the most valuable. You know, if you

574
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 10: lose then the multiply effect quickly, as you know, becomes

575
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 10: negative to your business. But when you vaccinate any of

576
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 10: those chickens, you know, any of the offspring of their prodigy,

577
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 10: you can't export, you know, so that would be obviously unacceptable.

578
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 10: Five and yeah, so I think we definitely need a

579
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 10: holistic approach from government. As I said, it's very much

580
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 10: like the food and mark, and I think then it

581
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 10: could be a lot easier.

582
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: Voter de Beth, thank you so much. So interesting, Chief

583
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: operating officer at Rainbow Chicken. Well speak to the CEO

584
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: of Growth Point to Stin de Clack in a moment

585
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: about property nine minutes to seven.

586
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 11: The Money Show, Stephen Crutez is brought to you by

587
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 11: Absolve Corporate and Investment backing Croud sponsors of GTR Africa

588
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 11: twenty twenty six, enabling trade flows for growth Apses.

589
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 7: The register Ever be.

590
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: Well, Growth Point Property is saying it's all more tourists

591
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: at the VNA waterfront in Cape Town. Some evidence also

592
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: that the office market in Counting and in the Western

593
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 3: Cape are beginning to recover its distributable income up by

594
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: two point one percent in the six months to the

595
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,719
Speaker 3: end of December Eston. The claque is the SACO at

596
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: growth point properties estin good evening, good to chat again,

597
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: the VNA waterfronts strong growth. There a lot more people

598
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: in Cape Town over the period.

599
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 5: Was that what drove it absolutely, look is a component.

600
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 5: The reality is the main drivers for this performance actually

601
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 5: comes from our South African portfolio. As you correctly pointed out,

602
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 5: our office portfolio has performed much better. But actually across

603
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 5: the board we had lightful like growth of six percent.

604
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 5: And then the saving and finance cost because in this

605
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 5: period we've obviously experienced less interest cost in that interest

606
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 5: rates have come down and we have also settled some

607
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 5: debt bringing down our turtle debt on batance sheet in

608
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 5: South Africa, and those were the two biggest drivers. The

609
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 5: VMA effectively was on the comparable period was actually flat

610
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 5: and one of the main reasons for that is our

611
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 5: development pipeline there that has taken the Table Bay offline

612
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 5: for the period. In reporting that hotel has now come

613
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 5: back as an intercontinental and will start has started trading.

614
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 5: It will impact sort of the back.

615
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 7: End of the year.

616
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 5: And then also we had sales and residential units that

617
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 5: have been very successful there and those sales only transferred

618
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 5: now in this month, so the second after the year.

619
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 5: It's going to be a little bit lopsided from an

620
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 5: earning's perspective, but overall, generally recomfortable with the trajectory, the

621
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 5: growth trajectory that we're in at the moment.

622
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 3: The situation in Kharteng and for a long time the

623
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: story has sort of been high office vacancies. How much

624
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 3: progress are you making there?

625
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 10: Slowly but surely.

626
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 5: You know, office vacancies and GDP growth have a very

627
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 5: close correlation. Unfortunately, and interestingly enough, if we look at

628
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 5: our coastal regions, Kasulin, Intel, the little Slunger Ridge, we're

629
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 5: full there. We are vacancies in the whole of Capetown.

630
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 5: I think we've got four four hundred square meters available

631
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 5: over the three hundred and sixty thousand square meters there.

632
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 5: And then if we come back to Karting, here's where

633
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 5: where we've been struggling. But even here, you know, we've

634
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 5: been able to systematically we bringing down the overall vacancies.

635
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 5: I mean, for growth point, the vacancies picked at twenty

636
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 5: two percent and we're down below fourteen percent to thirteen

637
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 5: point seven at the moment, so systematically is coming down

638
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 5: and we're putting in quite a lot of effort to

639
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 5: ensure that, you know, that that trend continues. But it

640
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 5: does help if you have good economic growth.

641
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 7: Sure.

642
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 3: I mean we heard from I don't know if their arrival.

643
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: They are in a slightly different business from Attack yesterday

644
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: they were talking about the vacancy rated Waterfall and mid

645
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 3: Rand and their vacancy rate is much lower than that.

646
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: Is there a big difference between what might be happening

647
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: in say Santon, where some of your officers are, and

648
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: what's happening in mid rouand in.

649
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 5: Order for yeah, look, I think the first thing is

650
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 5: though just a scale of the two businesses or quite

651
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 5: significantly different. I mean, we've got one point six million

652
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 5: square meters of office space and it is spread through

653
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 5: most of the metropolitan areas in South Africa. And yes,

654
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 5: we have quite a bit of exposure in the Shuting

655
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 5: region to Santon, Rosebank and up to park Time area

656
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 5: and we have been struggling in some of those areas

657
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 5: to bring vacancies down. But you know, it's more a

658
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 5: scale factor then it is really a relative position. What

659
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 5: has been a factor in waterfall is obviously they are

660
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 5: developing very much demand based and as a result, your

661
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 5: vacancies are relatively low and their portfolio clearly being reasonably

662
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 5: new some of those vises or in place for some time.

663
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 5: So they have done a wonderful job. It's a great node.

664
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 5: And you know, from our perspective, we have been also

665
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 5: working on a precinct strategy and increasingly selling assets that

666
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 5: are outside of precincts where we can have a bigger

667
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 5: influments on the surroundings, on the services I'm going. We've

668
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 5: built the whole energy business in growth Point today, which

669
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 5: is providing green power to our clients and you know

670
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 5: that effectively assists them with their US due credential. So

671
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 5: there are there's definitely some of that precinct thinking going

672
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 5: into the way we investing, and that is starting to

673
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 5: deliver some fruits and ultimately, you know, if we do

674
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 5: get economic growth that that will be the big swing

675
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 5: factor in terms of relative performance.

676
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean you talk about some of the properties

677
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: you're setting, I understand the precinct strategy you're investing in

678
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 3: the Western Cape. Are you slowly sort of moving out

679
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 3: of karting where you can.

680
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 5: I wouldn't say that's the case. I mean, you know,

681
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 5: ultimately we are where our clients are, so our objective

682
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 5: is to provide space to thrive. And the reality is

683
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 5: is that Starting's economy is significantly bigger than any of

684
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 5: the regions in terms of the demand for office space, etc.

685
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 5: In saying that, you know, we have focused quite a

686
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 5: lot of effort on the Western Cape, and if you

687
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 5: sort of overlay our holding in the VNA over our

688
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 5: say twenty three to twenty four billion rand portfolio of

689
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 5: assets in the in the Western Cape, I mean you

690
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 5: do get very close to half our assets pace from

691
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 5: a South African perspective being in the Western Cape, and

692
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 5: it has served us well because that market has performed better.

693
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 5: I think a big factor in this discussion is in

694
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 5: fact the performances of the metros relatively, and if you've

695
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 5: got a functioning metro that invests in infrastructure and invests

696
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 5: in their local economy, then you start seeing the benefits

697
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 5: of that. And unfortunately both Johannesburg and Twining to a

698
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 5: large extent, you know, we haven't quite seen the same extent,

699
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 5: and in fact, it has sort of drawn the real

700
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 5: estate industry into having to provide those services to a

701
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 5: large extent, but still at the same time paying rates

702
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 5: and taxes which are still escalating a double digit rade.

703
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 3: Yes, cinder Knak, thanks so much. Really appreciated the SSEO

704
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 3: at Growth Point Properties. We heard similar from other property

705
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 3: companies recently and from just other firms. Generally, counsels the

706
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 3: risk that they pose to companies, and it does seem

707
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 3: to be very much a kind of growing problem. We

708
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: spoke of course about counsels not paying ESKIM earlier. You're

709
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: at the Money Show. Good evening at seven o'clock.

710
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: And now the Money Show with Stephen Cridis on seven

711
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: oh two. Let's walk little.

712
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has brought to you

713
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 3: by Absurd Corporate and Investment Banking, proud sponsors of GTR

714
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 3: Africa twenty twenty six, enabling trade flows for growth ABSENS

715
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 3: registered FSP Well plenty to come. Your voice notes too

716
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: coming through about ESKIM, some of them about Brent Bazell,

717
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 3: the US ambassador who already has a demash. I suppose

718
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: you know our person was kicked out for saying things

719
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 3: about their politics. He gets wrapped over the knuckles for

720
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 3: saying thing about the things about ours. I suppose you

721
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: could argue that everyone was all slightly more insulting. I

722
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 3: don't know, you probably could. Yeah, plenty to come. We'll

723
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: talk to Supi Moyo. In a moment, you know that

724
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 3: feeling you get when you realize technology is changing so

725
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: quickly and you kind of think, am I still needed here?

726
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I thought that was just a parental problem,

727
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 3: you know that moment, do they still need me? But

728
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 3: now I think more and more it's becoming about companies

729
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 3: and about our roles and what are people going to use,

730
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: and someone's just going to take my voice, whether by

731
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 3: my permission, and that'll be the end of me. I mean,

732
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: really quite scary. When do you know that your consumer Ninja,

733
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 3: by the way, she has an update on that Cape

734
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 3: Town story about that heritage home that was damaged in

735
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 3: a storm and there was an adjudication and there was

736
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 3: an appeal and the appeal went the person's way, but

737
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 3: then the bank wouldn't be the insurance company, excuse me,

738
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: wouldn't pay It all got quite real. So I'm looking

739
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 3: forward to that update actually, and then also from seven

740
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 3: point thirty ready looking forward to meeting quick Lutz, the

741
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 3: CEO had Pan African resources and all sorts of interesting

742
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 3: things and lots to talk about in the gold industry.

743
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 3: At the moment, you know how to get in touch

744
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: O double one, double A three oh seven oh two

745
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: two one four four six oh five six seven and

746
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 3: of course voice notes on seven two seven oh two

747
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 3: one seven oh two.

748
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 4: The LNY Show with Stephen Krudis live on ninety two

749
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,959
Speaker 4: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime

750
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 4: Media Plus NAP.

751
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 2: And DStv channel eight five six.

752
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 3: Well Canel Plus saying today that it's planning to spend

753
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: one point nine billion round on DStv. Now, all of

754
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: the talk up until now has been on cuts and

755
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 3: sort of back end stuff, but that does seem that

756
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: they want to spend money to sort it out. If

757
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: you look at the number of subscribers and how that's

758
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 3: declined over the last years, that you can see how

759
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 3: much work there is to do. It did remind me

760
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: though of a comment tributed I think to Rupert Murdoch

761
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: of all people, a long time ago, when the multi

762
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: channel era was just beginning, and he would say content

763
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: is king. Realize there's a gender biers to that, but

764
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: content is king. If you own the best stuff, people

765
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 3: will come to you. And I can't help but think

766
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: it's that. It is as simple as that. And if

767
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 3: I were a Canil Plus and I was looking at

768
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: trying to make sure I was getting money out of

769
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: South Africa, good local drama, remember how much people used

770
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 3: to speak about morvang or or any of the others.

771
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: You know, just remember how much they used to talk

772
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 3: about them. I mean, you said, Didn'to's storylines a different era,

773
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 3: but certainly you know Gauley things like that. Now, there's

774
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: a reason why all of those channels had a soap opera,

775
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: by the way, and why in the UK all the

776
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 3: if I recall all of the free tier channels, the

777
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 3: big five of them do have a have some kind

778
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: of soap opera brings people back every day. They want

779
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 3: to know. They don't watch it every day. They watch

780
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: it maybe once a week, or they walk past it

781
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 3: or something. But the characters are familiar that kind of stuff.

782
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 3: If I were Conor Plus, I would speak to what

783
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 3: was his name, grayhoff Mayer. He might be late now,

784
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 3: actually he created quite a lot of our soapropers. I'll

785
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 3: speak to the people behind behind behind. Move on, God

786
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 3: speak to those people and say, look, let's do another

787
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: one ten after sip.

788
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: Mind show business unusual.

789
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: So as a parent, as my children get older, I

790
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: sort of realized that at some point they're not going

791
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 3: to need me anymore. And that's one thing I can

792
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 3: kind of live with that I'm programmed, I think, to

793
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 3: understand that and that that will happen. It's inevitable. It's

794
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: not inevitable, and it would. It feels very different to

795
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 3: think that that might happen at work, And I wonder

796
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 3: if you've had that feeling that actually as an employee,

797
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: you kind of think, well, I don't know if they

798
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 3: need me here. And because I think this might now

799
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 3: be temporary, I don't know if I'm going to behave

800
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: in the way that I used to, I don't feel

801
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 3: so invested a part of things. Superio moyl is our

802
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 3: organizational behavior. Specially it's superit good evening. I think a

803
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 3: lot of people must be feeling this at the moment. Yeah,

804
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: it's well.

805
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 7: In our minds.

806
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 12: We keep hearing that we must adapt to the technologial revolution,

807
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 12: and I think deep down we know that, just like

808
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 12: the Great check Welsh, I don't know if you remember

809
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 12: the code where he says, if the rate of change

810
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 12: outside your organization is faster than the rate of change inside,

811
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 12: then the end is near. And I think conceptually we

812
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 12: understand that because we are human beings, we want predictability

813
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 12: in order we want to know am I still needed here?

814
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 12: And those feelings of being needed and those feelings to

815
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 12: feel like I'm still valued here are very important. But

816
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 12: many people are at that point right now where they're

817
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 12: feeling unsure about whether they're still needed, about whether this

818
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 12: AI revolution is going to lead to job losses, and

819
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 12: some of them are just stalling with during their labor,

820
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 12: not giving too much thinking instantly about what they would

821
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 12: need to do beyond. I mean the research by Pew

822
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 12: that found that about fifty two percent of workers are

823
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 12: worried about the impact of AI and their jobs and

824
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 12: roughly have said believe it could replace job opportunities.

825
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 5: For them the long run.

826
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 12: And no matter how many times people are sure us

827
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 12: that AI is not going to replace our jobs, there

828
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 12: is that lingering feeling. And I wonder the impact of

829
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 12: that lingering feeling on engagement, on motivation, on morale, and

830
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 12: just people doing what they just have to do and

831
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 12: not giving us that discretionary effort that what we want.

832
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: How can a leader know that this is happening in

833
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 3: your office? How can our manager sort of know actually

834
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 3: this feeling is taking hold.

835
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, I think for me, the bottom line is to

836
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 12: assume that it is, especially if.

837
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 5: We're not having conversations.

838
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 12: If, for example, studies are telling us that fifty four

839
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 12: percent fifty two percent of people are worried, you have

840
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 12: to assume that people in your organization are worried as well.

841
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 12: The idea, I mean people have even coined the TERMAI anxiety,

842
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 12: which is people are literally studying that. And couple with

843
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 12: the fact that many organizations still have this restructuring. Everyone

844
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 12: is talking about efficiency and work is intensifying, and we

845
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 12: all know that in most organizations now, when one person leaves,

846
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 12: they're not going to probably announce retrenchments, but they don't

847
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 12: replace that person, and they don't replace that person, and

848
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 12: suddenly the entire layer.

849
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,439
Speaker 5: Management layer is gone.

850
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 12: So people can see this and it leads to that

851
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 12: idea of psychological replaceability. And you have to assume that

852
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 12: people in your team are having that unless you create

853
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 12: certain environments where people can talk freely, where people have

854
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 12: some kind of focus groups about the impact of technology

855
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 12: on their emotions, on their career anxiety. For me, Steven,

856
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 12: you have to assume that it is happening because it

857
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 12: is so.

858
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: I mean, no email from HR telling everyone they won't

859
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 3: be mass layoffs is going to help anything, right, No

860
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 3: statement by a CEO at the office party your jobs

861
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: are all safe because frankly, we don't. We don't believe them,

862
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: and we're right not to. Frankly, how do you then

863
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: to make sure the employees do actually feel valued and

864
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 3: that they are they do still have a place, do you?

865
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 3: How do you get that sort of discretion we work

866
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 3: back if you like.

867
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, thanks Steven, And I think I agree with you.

868
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 12: No matter how much you tell people, they are not

869
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 12: going to believe. I mean when I listen to your

870
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 12: Intel talking about the big acquisition by by Canal Plus,

871
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 12: if you're working at multi Choice, there's always going to

872
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 12: be in anxiety. And whenever they are majors in acquisitions,

873
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 12: there is a certain period where people are promised that

874
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 12: they won't be job losses, but you wonder, You keep

875
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 12: wondering what's going to happen, for example, post that particular period,

876
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 12: and I think the main thing is really to give

877
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 12: people a sense that.

878
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 3: They matter and.

879
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 12: Show them evidence that they matter, so things like recognition

880
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 12: for people's work and for giving people feedback, and also

881
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 12: just tell them about the digital transformation strategy that the

882
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 12: organization is going. The main thing that gives us a

883
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 12: little bit of certainty is sharing and transparency about this

884
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 12: is the digital transformation that we're having, and these are

885
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 12: the new imaging roles that are happening, and what is

886
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 12: the gap between some of the roles that we have

887
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 12: and the imaging role Because we always find stivin in

888
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 12: most organizations that the skills between the declining jobs and

889
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 12: the imaging rules are not the skills are not that different.

890
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 12: And therefore, if there's a riskilling process that as leaders

891
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 12: were having and people feel like I am part of

892
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 12: the riskilling process and someone has showed me what it

893
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 12: to take to get those imaging roles, then I feels

894
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 12: slightly confident as well.

895
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: And you can only really give.

896
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 12: That signal, the signal of trust, the signal of growth

897
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 12: that people are growing, and the signal that people really matter,

898
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 12: and it's not going to come by telling. And I

899
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 12: think at this particular time, just telling people is not

900
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 12: going to be enough. I think the more you share

901
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 12: about what the division, what the company is going, and

902
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 12: how people can get there with you, that's how people

903
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 12: are going to believe in.

904
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not the old thing. If people think

905
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 3: that they are progressing, if people think they are going

906
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 3: to be part of it, and if people think that

907
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 3: the company they're working for is progressing, they just feel

908
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 3: a lot better about things.

909
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 12: Generally they do Stevin and I think each and every

910
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 12: person wants to know that I'm growing. Each and every

911
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 12: person wants to know that I still able to lend,

912
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 12: I still have a part in this business. And for me,

913
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 12: it's about really communication, that communicating how how that business,

914
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 12: how that fe which is going to look like. So,

915
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 12: for example, if you ask people this is what we're

916
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 12: trying to do, do you want to just splay around

917
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 12: and experiment with what we're trying to do, then people

918
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 12: the impact on their careers and their wellbeing is much better.

919
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 12: And when people are actively engaged with whatever we're trying

920
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 12: to do, here's a different AI that we're trying to do. Here,

921
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 12: this is what we're trying to give. Let's make sure

922
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 12: that you know you experiment with it, and people will

923
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 12: always feel like, Okay, I'm part of the process. I'm

924
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 12: still wanted here involvement, being engaged and creating solutions, because

925
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 12: the honest to it is that some of the middle

926
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 12: management leaders sometimes they really don't know what the bigger

927
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 12: picture is. They know we're changing, but they don't know

928
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 12: the bigger picture. And for me, one of the best

929
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 12: gifts you can ever give to your team members is

930
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 12: to promise them that I will always tell you what

931
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 12: I know, and when maybe I'm not allowed to tell

932
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 12: you about something, I'll always come back to you and

933
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 12: also say, look, there is something more that I know,

934
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 12: but at the moment I cannot tell. I'll keep nudging

935
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 12: those of those people in my CEOs and whatever to

936
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 12: keep giving us the information. And when you do that,

937
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 12: you get trust, Stephen, because when you're not saying anything

938
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 12: and people you know, there are a lot of members

939
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 12: in the office people can sense these things, and many

940
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 12: of us, as leaders, particularly in uncertainty, we also become

941
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 12: aloof We go to our own corners, and I want

942
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 12: to argue that in these changing times, we need to

943
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 12: stay closer to our people rather than our We communicate, communicate, communicate,

944
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 12: and even tell them what you are not sure about.

945
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: Superior Moyle, thanks so much, so interesting, so much to

946
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 3: think about. Organizational behavior specialists. Nineteen minutes after seven.

947
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 2: Have Stephen On seventy two seven oh two one seven

948
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 2: o two.

949
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: Talking about ESCAM tonight talking about its plan to consult

950
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 3: on the sitting off of councils that have just not

951
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 3: been paying what they owe ESCAM.

952
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 13: Hi, Stephen, the ministry, which you can maybe keep the

953
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 13: levees and then ESCAM can then take the money for

954
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 13: the electricity, so that for instance, the minus structural by

955
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 13: maybe the extrasy form from Estum four hundred rant but

956
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 13: then said it to us for like one hundred tree

957
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 13: to rant. So ESKAM can then recover the hundred rent,

958
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 13: but then obviously pay all their training rent to their minispiity.

959
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 7: I think that that could work.

960
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Interesting, Actually, it's an interesting thought. There are all

961
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 3: sorts of things that we need to work out, because

962
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 3: really we can't just keep going like this. Something has

963
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 3: to change. I mean, seriously, something really does have to change.

964
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: The money show consumer Naga.

965
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 3: Well, your consumer Ninja of course is Wendy Nola and Wendy.

966
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: Good evening. We'll talk about the main issue in a

967
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 3: moment banknotes. But I'm very glad you're able to give

968
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: us an update on this woman who had this home

969
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 3: in Cape Town, one hundred and thirty years old. It's

970
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 3: a heritage home. There was all of this terrible damage.

971
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 3: The insurance company, Standard Insurance Limited, they said, no, we're

972
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 3: in tear, was to blame for some of it.

973
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 7: She lost.

974
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 3: Then she went to the appeal Tribunal of Financial financial

975
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 3: but they ruled in her favor. And I think where

976
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 3: we left the story last week was that they still

977
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 3: refused to pay her out.

978
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 14: Hyo steved. Yes, indeed, they still refused to pay her out.

979
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: They paid some of her claim.

980
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 14: But not all of it, which was quite odd in itself,

981
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 14: and the appealed tripunal ordered that the insurance and insurance

982
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 14: pay her the balance of one hundred and one thousand rand.

983
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 14: This was they said there was bora and the roof,

984
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 14: and that course that she was able to prove that

985
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 14: wasn't the case because she had ordered certifications and it

986
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 14: was a mother of all storms. It was hurricane force winds,

987
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 14: so you know those things together. Anyway, I'm happy to

988
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 14: report that Standard Insurance has had a bit of an

989
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 14: about turn, and a couple of days ago they paid

990
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 14: the woman that one hundred and eleven thousand rands.

991
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 2: So nice ending.

992
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 14: In the end, I'm not sure what went to you

993
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 14: know why they couldn't tell me that last week when

994
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 14: I asked, you haven't paid, it's late. The twenty seventh

995
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 14: of February was the deadline. Why you paid, and they

996
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 14: were like, no, we're going to appeal that. Well, there

997
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 14: is no process to appeal the appeal tribunal funding. But anyway,

998
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 14: all's well, that ends well, and the woman is really

999
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 14: very delighted.

1000
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm sure, and I mean a long fight

1001
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 3: for her as well. Okay, the main issue, I mean,

1002
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 3: so many people still use cash. I mean more than

1003
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 3: I think. It's about fifty five percent of our transactions

1004
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 3: are in cash. But so there are lots of banknotes

1005
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 3: and lots of coins. What happens when someone says, well, actually,

1006
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: I'm not going to take this note. Do you have

1007
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 3: a particular case on this?

1008
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 9: I do.

1009
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 8: So.

1010
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 14: The fact of the matter is that all banknotes that

1011
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 14: are and coins for that matter, issued by the South

1012
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 14: African Reserve Bank. Sorry, not all coins. Some have been

1013
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 14: discontinuedistic with banknotes. The banknotes that have been issued by

1014
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 14: the Reserve Bank since nineteen sixty one remained legal tender

1015
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 14: bar one soul specific two hundred rand note, the pre

1016
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 14: two thousand and five series.

1017
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 3: They're out of the system long ago.

1018
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 14: They're not in circulation and it was withdrawn in twenty

1019
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 14: ten because it was being counterfeited, and very good quality

1020
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 14: jobs at that, so they withdrew. In other words, that's

1021
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 14: not legal tender anymore. But and that it's second what

1022
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 14: is it a twenty one year old note?

1023
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 3: Now they're out of the system. But for some reason.

1024
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 14: People have got it into their head. A lot of

1025
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 14: shop people have got it into their heads that they

1026
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 14: can just reject any bank note if it looks a

1027
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 14: little bit old to them. So Itali Parkin was buying

1028
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 14: groceries with one hundred and seventeen rand at a home

1029
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 14: essentials in Glenn ballad Mare, Kempton Park. She handed over

1030
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 14: one hundred rand note and a fifty slightly older fifty

1031
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 14: rand note, but in perfect condition, she said at the

1032
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 14: till there were no tears, no stains, nothing like that.

1033
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 14: But the cash I called the supervisor w we've led

1034
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 14: refused to accept the fifty rand, saying management had instructed

1035
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 14: them not to accept so called old notes because the

1036
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 14: banks supposedly do not take them anymore.

1037
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 9: So, yeah, sorry for you.

1038
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, I presume she stood her ground.

1039
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 3: I mean she sounds if she's come to you like

1040
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 3: someone who might know a bit about the law.

1041
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 14: Yeah, she did, and that's why she found it quite

1042
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 14: a humiliating experience because she knew for sure that it

1043
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 14: was legal tend at that fifty rand note and they.

1044
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 3: Had no right to refuse it.

1045
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 14: So she pointed this out, but the supervisor wouldn't budge.

1046
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 14: He insisted it was store policy. So she did what

1047
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 14: most of us would have done to avoid holding up

1048
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 14: the queue. She paid with another note, but she was

1049
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 14: understandably upset and decided never to shop there again. And

1050
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 14: then she also thought she'd reach out to me and

1051
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 14: see if I could take.

1052
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 7: Up the case.

1053
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 3: Okay, So, I mean, I don't know if you've had

1054
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 3: this happen before. When did this idea arrive that no,

1055
00:56:58,440 --> 00:56:59,479
Speaker 3: we can refuse notes.

1056
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 14: So it goes back to twenty ten. I remember it well.

1057
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 14: So it's just before the World Cup Cup and the

1058
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 14: Reserve Bank directed the withdrawal of those specific old two

1059
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 14: hundred rand notes without the upgraded security features which had

1060
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 14: come into the notes from two thousand and five. So

1061
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 14: you know, the diamond shape, the sparky ink. There are

1062
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 14: a few features there which the old notes didn't have.

1063
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 14: So the problem, Stephen, is that some people are not

1064
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 14: good with nuance.

1065
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: It's black or white.

1066
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 14: So many retailers and their staff began applying this. You know,

1067
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 14: this one note is withdrawn thing to you know, assume

1068
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 14: that all older looking notes were somehow now invalid and

1069
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 14: not legal tender. And that myth persists to this day.

1070
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 14: And it's not just confined to two hundred rand notes

1071
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 14: as with this case. It's fifty, it's twenty, it's one hundred.

1072
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 14: It's just like, oh that looks a bit old. No,

1073
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 14: the banks won't take it's a complete line, but it persists.

1074
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 14: I mean we're talking fifteen years later. It's ridiculous.

1075
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: What happened when you contacted? The company is called Home Essentials, right.

1076
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 14: Yes, I spoke to the director, Paul Killian. At first

1077
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 14: he suggested the note might have been stained or torn,

1078
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 14: but once we clarified that it wasn't because I saw

1079
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 14: a picture of it, he quickly acknowledged a mistake, and

1080
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 14: he said the supervisor had made a wrong judgment call.

1081
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 14: He apologized unreservedly to Idali. He offered her full refund

1082
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 14: for the purchase, and importantly, he committed to enrolling his

1083
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 14: staff in the South African Reserve Banks free online, no

1084
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 14: your money course. And I didn't know that existed until

1085
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 14: I took this case. And it covers all these things

1086
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 14: identifying genuine notes, security features, and the rules around legal tender.

1087
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 14: And yeah, it's the kind of proactive step that prevents

1088
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 14: these kinds of things happening. And I thought that was

1089
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 14: a great response.

1090
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 3: Well done the Reserve Bank as well, having absolutely Okay.

1091
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 3: So if I'm in the shop tomorrow and I've got

1092
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 3: a bank note and it's perfectly legal and someone says no,

1093
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 3: I'm not taking that, the banks won't take it. What happens?

1094
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 3: What should I do?

1095
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 9: Oh?

1096
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 14: Well, stay car just say look, I understand there's a

1097
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 14: lot of misconception around this, but trust me, this note

1098
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 14: is legal tender. And if they still refuse, ask to

1099
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 14: see the most senior person I want to see speak

1100
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 14: to the manager and then you know, if that's still

1101
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 14: a note, I would take a photo of the note,

1102
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 14: get their refusal on record, note the store and the

1103
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 14: time and the date whatever, and report it to the

1104
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 14: Reserve Bank or to the consumer journals like myself. And

1105
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 14: also if you stick to that truth and the facts

1106
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 14: one hundred percent, I think you know, if you're on socials,

1107
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 14: post it there because it's all about educating people and

1108
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 14: consumers and shopkeepers that this is really a silly, silly

1109
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 14: little practice that should have you know, that should not

1110
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 14: still be happening in twenty twenty six.

1111
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 3: So, I mean, this is on cash, but they're also

1112
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 3: ways sometimes where I find that retail the stays treat

1113
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 3: their customers very well with card payments.

1114
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 14: Yeah, this is actually a bigger issue, Stephen. So I

1115
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 14: get a lot of complaints about two practices. The one

1116
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 14: is shopkeepers making consumers pay extra, sometimes a percentage such

1117
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 14: as five percent, sometimes more, and other times it's a

1118
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 14: flat fee. And that flat flat fee, you know, if

1119
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 14: it's a low spend, it's quite a big proportion, and

1120
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 14: they're basically making you pay their bank fees, which is

1121
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 14: outlawed not only by the Consumer Protection Act, but by

1122
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 14: the Merchant's Agreement which they have to sign when they

1123
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 14: get that point of sale machine, so it's a big noner,

1124
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 14: and the other one is imposing a minimum spend. You

1125
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 14: want to tap your card, that's fun, but you've got

1126
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 14: to spend at least one hundred grand or fifty rand

1127
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 14: or whatever the case maybe, and that's again to cover

1128
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 14: their bank fees. It's both rooted in the same illegal practice.

1129
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 2: And I had a case recently.

1130
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 14: Well I saw it on TikTok and I engaged with

1131
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 14: the woman where she this happened, and she wrote to

1132
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 14: the bank it was FNB, and said this has happened,

1133
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 14: this is the store, and please deal with it. And

1134
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 14: they sent a letter to the store and that practice stopped.

1135
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 14: You said, that was in twenty twenty four and it's

1136
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 14: never happened since in that store. So this is something

1137
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 14: else we consumers should be proactive about it and just

1138
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 14: refuse to accept.

1139
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,919
Speaker 3: Wendy Noler, your consumer ninja, thanks very much, indeed, ready

1140
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 3: to appreciate that. So interesting around cash at the moment,

1141
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 3: twenty eight minutes after seven.

1142
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 2: The Money Show shape shift is twenty.

1143
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 3: Four minutes now to eight o'clock. Well, one of the

1144
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 3: sectors which has just been the most interesting, and I'm

1145
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 3: not talking about oil, but one of the sectors that

1146
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 3: we've been talking about so much for the last year

1147
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 3: or so, particularly in South Africa, has been the gold sector.

1148
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 3: So we thought it'd be a good idea to speak

1149
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 3: to someone who's really at the center of it both

1150
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 3: here and I think more and more, and interestingly recently

1151
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 3: in Australia, someone who's been sort of investing involved in

1152
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,479
Speaker 3: the middle of those deals. Kubis Lewitz is the CEO

1153
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 3: at Pan African Resources.

1154
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 7: Kubbas.

1155
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 3: I can't imagine how bus you are at the moment,

1156
01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 3: so I really appreciate the time. Thanks so much for

1157
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,959
Speaker 3: coming in, thank you for having me, and that's great

1158
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 3: to be here.

1159
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 7: And we're not that busy all the time, and that's

1160
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 7: the benefits of having such a good team of people

1161
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 7: at Pan African.

1162
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 3: I mean, you've been in mining for quite a long time,

1163
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 3: but you actually qualified as a chartered accountant, and certainly

1164
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 3: during a time when you know that was the route

1165
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 3: to being a CEO. Was that always what you wanted

1166
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 3: to do or was there at some point an accountant

1167
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 3: now a frustrated accountant that maybe could have been on

1168
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 3: the charts too.

1169
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 7: No, it's interesting, I sort of I guess sort of

1170
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 7: fell into mining where I wanted to do corporate finance,

1171
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 7: and it's got a call to say that there was

1172
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 7: a mining corporate finance role that had opened up at Macquarie,

1173
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 7: the Australian Bank, and after lots of tests and interviews

1174
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 7: so after I didn't think it would be glamorous or

1175
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 7: that interesting. So I sort of got into mining that

1176
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 7: manner and then after a bit sort of felt that

1177
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 7: it would be closer to be well better to be

1178
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 7: closer to the action, and then sort of started looking

1179
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 7: at operational roles and sort of took it from there.

1180
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 3: I mean, it's one thing to manage numbers operational roles

1181
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 3: at at a mine. I realized there'll still be spreadsheets involved.

1182
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 3: It must get quite nice and technical at times. I

1183
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 3: mean you really are getting deep into the middle of it.

1184
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 7: Sure it's most definitely, but ultimately it's a people's business,

1185
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 7: like like probably any any other. So your people one

1186
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 7: of your key key assets, the senior people as well

1187
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 7: as the guys that go underground every day and do

1188
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 7: the hard yards.

1189
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 3: Was there a particular drive that you had. Were you

1190
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 3: just sort of for a while, well this looks interesting,

1191
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 3: I'll go and do that, or was there always a

1192
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 3: thing that you, you know, were pursuing at some point.

1193
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 7: Well, I think was mining. Is it's in a way,

1194
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 7: it's I think it attracts a certain type of personality

1195
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 7: and you know, once you are in it, in a way,

1196
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 7: it's very difficult to see yourself doing anything else. I mean,

1197
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 7: you have this sort of really massive cyclicality you have, so,

1198
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 7: I mean, and interesting people have generally have very short memory.

1199
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 7: So whatever the status quo is, most people and would

1200
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 7: sort of perceive to be sort of permanent in terms

1201
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 7: of prices. And then you obviously have all the dynamics

1202
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 7: in terms of stakeholders, your employees, your unions, the electricity

1203
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 7: situation in South Africa, the regulate and everybody else. So

1204
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 7: it's it's a very complicated set of circumstances.

1205
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 3: Especially running a mind that has such long horizons, you know,

1206
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 3: for twenty years before it makes any money at all.

1207
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, I mean there's sort of I guess the

1208
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 7: climate has changed in that fifteen twenty years ago. Shoolders

1209
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 7: and investors we're still happy to take a longer term

1210
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 7: view and it's no longer the case. So in terms

1211
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 7: of projects that want that you undertake, they have to

1212
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 7: have relatively short paybacks, so it makes it more difficult

1213
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 7: to take a longer term view. I mean, we're very

1214
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 7: fortunate in terms of our portfolio that we have long

1215
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 7: life assets. Barbiton which you know where everything started for

1216
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 7: Pan African has been going for one hundred and forty

1217
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 7: years and stilled at least twenty years.

1218
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 3: Of life on some of those shifts. Sure, what was

1219
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 3: your first job? I mean the first time he got

1220
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 3: money for doing something, and I mean I don't know,

1221
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 3: was there a car that was a bit cleaner? Afterwards?

1222
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 3: I mean I did a bit of vacation work.

1223
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 7: At at Deloitte and tushe I was doing articles and

1224
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 7: obviously a bit of like odd jobs at university, so

1225
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 7: that was sort of pretty much my first job.

1226
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 3: And then after articles, I mean, working for another accountancy

1227
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 3: firm or was there I went?

1228
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 7: I went. It was a great opportunity to go and

1229
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 7: work in the US for about six months, and it

1230
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 7: was also the first time I got to saw the

1231
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 7: impact of a massive recession and the dot com boom exploding.

1232
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 7: So I've spent a bit of time in Silicon Valley

1233
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 7: and yeah, that was very interesting. Whereas the guys described

1234
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 7: the mood and the parties that was happening that were

1235
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 7: happening just the year before, or it was very different,

1236
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 7: very somber when I was there, and it was a

1237
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 7: good experience.

1238
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 3: I mean, when you look at the different jobs that

1239
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 3: you've had, the different experiences, was there a particular time,

1240
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 3: or a particular role or a particular job where maybe

1241
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 3: I thought, actually, I'm learning so much in this this

1242
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 3: has now given me an insight into what I really,

1243
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 3: you know, wanted to do, or into kind of the

1244
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 3: country how things work in the sector.

1245
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1246
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 7: Again, I think it's a way fortunate that you are.

1247
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 7: Certainly from a mining perspective, I've always been thrown in

1248
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 7: the deep end. So in the examples would be when

1249
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 7: we had I'd work for a joint venture between Shandukah

1250
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 7: and glenc Or buying coal mines and putting those together,

1251
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 7: managing them and building a portfolio, and there was no

1252
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 7: script or bloop print for doing that. It was sort

1253
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 7: of just sort of learning as you as you went along,

1254
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 7: and very fortunate to have been part of a very

1255
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 7: entrepreneurial team in that regard, and then sort of moved

1256
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:01,479
Speaker 7: on to Shandukah working with the praise sident and looking

1257
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 7: after all those mining interests. And again, it was quite

1258
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 7: an interesting and unique time. It was a time of empowerment, transactions,

1259
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 7: a lot of deals, a lot of excitement in South

1260
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 7: African mining. And again it's like there was nothing the

1261
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 7: no script for learning how to do that.

1262
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 3: Many people have sat in the chair that you're sitting

1263
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 3: in now, and I've often asked them about a boss

1264
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 3: or something that had an impact, but I don't think

1265
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:29,959
Speaker 3: any of them have had the president as a direct boss.

1266
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 3: So I saw romopause that the businessman at the time,

1267
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 3: I mean.

1268
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 7: What was that like? It was interesting against Shanduka was

1269
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 7: an organization at to some extent, was created because of

1270
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 7: the empowerment opportunity, because of his reputation, and it's sort

1271
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 7: of morphed in some way and became a I mean

1272
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 7: pretty much a it's multi dimensional and very complicated business.

1273
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 7: And yeah, I mean it was an interesting time. If

1274
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 7: I to summarize, the president was always very consultative. I

1275
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 7: think they're saying that sort of would ring somewhere like

1276
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 7: if you want to go fast, you need to go alone.

1277
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 7: If you want to go far, you need to take

1278
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 7: a lot of people with so I'd say that was

1279
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 7: pretty much his approach.

1280
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 3: He's always struck me as someone, I mean a few

1281
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 3: times I bumped into him, you know, as a as

1282
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 3: a working journalist before he re entered politics, everybody would say,

1283
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:30,280
Speaker 3: mister Ramopause, even though you know he was in inverted

1284
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 3: comm as just a businessman. I've always thought even then

1285
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 3: there was a sort of sense around him. Look wherever

1286
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 3: if I was following him somewhere, there was always people

1287
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 3: interested in him. So maybe it was that was it

1288
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 3: a bit like that when you're working with him. I mean,

1289
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 3: most definitely.

1290
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 7: I think he's sort of because of the role that

1291
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 7: he played also pre pre democracy, he had a certain

1292
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 7: aura about him. So most definitely, and he was always

1293
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 7: a private person.

1294
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, even now, you can see it doesn't give much away, No,

1295
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 3: not at all. I'm trying to get as much as

1296
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 3: I can. And I can see that you have some

1297
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 3: loyalty perhaps which reflects very well on you and I

1298
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 3: suppose him. You went to Pan African Resources eleven years ago. Well,

1299
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 3: actually longer, so there's are twenty fifteen. There's a long history.

1300
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,679
Speaker 7: So I was when I was with Shandukah, we were

1301
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 7: the empowerment shareholder in Barberton Mines and then the owner

1302
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 7: of the majority stake actually ran into difficulties in the

1303
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 7: Congo matrix, which was a great mid Tis South African

1304
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 7: miner that oftentimes is not given enough credit I think

1305
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 7: for what they did for the industry. So that you

1306
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 7: dispose of the stake in Barbiton and we did a

1307
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 7: deal to actually become the largest shareholder Shanduka. So I

1308
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 7: was in part time financial director of Pan African and

1309
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 7: I moved to non executive and then when sort of

1310
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 7: Shanduka started to change, I moved to Pan African full

1311
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:54,839
Speaker 7: time financial director.

1312
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:55,600
Speaker 9: But c O.

1313
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 7: Yes, since twenty fifteen, so fairly long time, I guess

1314
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 7: in mining and on a JC from a CEO perspective.

1315
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 3: Well it is, and I mean part of me wants

1316
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 3: to say, does the job get easier as you keep going?

1317
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 3: Especially in the same business. I realized that obviously twenty

1318
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,719
Speaker 3: fifteen gold industry where that from when he became CEO,

1319
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 3: the Golden Street then the Goldenustry now are like completely

1320
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 3: different peaces because the pricing is so different.

1321
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 7: The pricing is different, but there are obviously now also

1322
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 7: other complications. But when I became COO. It was a

1323
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 7: very different business. We had Barbiton mines pretty much only

1324
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 7: the Underground, which was at the time was the lowest

1325
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 7: cost underground mine in South Africa. We continue to call

1326
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 7: Barbiton a gift that gives on giving. It's difficult because

1327
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 7: of the illegal mining and everything else, but still, I

1328
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 7: mean it's one of the few places where after so

1329
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 7: many years of mining you still discover new r bodies.

1330
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 7: So I mean it we're Barbiton and we sort of it.

1331
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 7: Bought the Vander Underground from Harmony in twenty twelve and

1332
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 7: that mine, if so, all the gray hair that I

1333
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 7: have pretty much and as a result of a Vander

1334
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:04,759
Speaker 7: So it was a time where our production is volatile.

1335
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 7: We had a lot of issues, breakdowns, safety challenges. So

1336
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 7: it's a difficult time, but it's a good time to

1337
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 7: I guess, get to know what the role of a

1338
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 7: CEO entails. And I wanted to a couple of times,

1339
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 7: I guess, you know, call it quits. And yeah, very

1340
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 7: very grateful for the advice I received from a couple

1341
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 7: of very wise people to say just sort of stick

1342
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 7: it out. And yes, I mean we're in a very

1343
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:32,599
Speaker 7: different place from a pricing perspective, most definitely. But Pan

1344
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,680
Speaker 7: African also is in a great place in terms of

1345
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 7: what we've done in terms of diversifying our business into

1346
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:42,440
Speaker 7: tailings in South Africa, firstly initially and now also into Australia.

1347
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 7: So the more diversity you have or diversification order, the

1348
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 7: better you are able to absorb short termed shocks and

1349
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 7: maintain your production profile.

1350
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to ask about Australia in a sec but

1351
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 3: I do just want to ask about the very high

1352
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 3: gold prices because I mean, obviously at first blush at

1353
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 3: first sighted must just make it much easier to run

1354
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 3: a gold mine, you know, when there's more money coming in.

1355
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 3: But I wonder if there's also a bit more pressure

1356
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 3: from shareholders to do the right deals to make the

1357
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 3: most of this opportunity.

1358
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 7: The most definitely there is it is easier because I

1359
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 7: mean the margins have expanded massively. But in the last

1360
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 7: eighteen months we've commissioned two large projects, which one was

1361
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 7: EMPTR on the West Rand and then also it turned

1362
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 7: into in Australia. So I mean our balance sheet was

1363
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 7: fairly stretched after all of the capital we spent and

1364
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 7: because of the price and because of the performance of

1365
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 7: the business. We managed to replay all of this deck

1366
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 7: and we currently need cash. It's a great position to

1367
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 7: be in, but as you say, I mean that also

1368
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 7: comes with its own challenges and one of the key

1369
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 7: questions we get from all shareholders is what are you

1370
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 7: going to do with the cash. Fortunately, I think Pan

1371
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 7: African has a great track record in terms of capital,

1372
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 7: so we've always managed to strike a balance between reinvesting

1373
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 7: in our existing assets, growing the business like we've done,

1374
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 7: and then also returning cash to shells in the form

1375
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 7: of principally dividends, and we'll continue to do that. We

1376
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 7: understand what a balance sheet looks like, if you can

1377
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 7: still call it that, and I guess we understand what

1378
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 7: the cost of equity is and what generally investors target.

1379
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 7: And one of the when you speak to fund man

1380
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 7: is one of the key attributes of management that they

1381
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:34,839
Speaker 7: always try and ascertain is management's ability to allocate capital.

1382
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,759
Speaker 7: So that's really where you need to sharpen your pencil

1383
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 7: and make sure that you know what you're doing.

1384
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 3: I mean, talking of Australia, it's Inmocon that you bought

1385
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 3: I think three hundred and eleven million Australian dollars. Is

1386
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 3: that that part of your sort of longer term plan

1387
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 3: to basically have more minds and more diverse places, to

1388
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 3: diversify your sort of reach if you like.

1389
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 7: Well, I think I mean in terms of South Africa,

1390
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,759
Speaker 7: we've expanded very nicely and we have some great growth projects.

1391
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 7: MTR when we was a wonderful deal when we sort

1392
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 7: of bought the asset all for a liquidator for two

1393
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,600
Speaker 7: and a half million dollars and proceeded to build you

1394
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 7: know what's I think. In December last year we were

1395
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 7: awarded the ESG Mining Project of the Year award in

1396
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 7: the UK, so this was great. But I mean we

1397
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 7: pretty much have our South African growth mapped out. We're

1398
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 7: going to expand in tailings, were investing in a couple

1399
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 7: of new mechanized operations Barberton, et cetera. But we continue

1400
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 7: to always look for new opportunities. We've been all over

1401
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 7: Africa also assessing opportunities and mines a couple of transactions

1402
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:38,679
Speaker 7: over the years. I'd say we regret not doing most

1403
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 7: of them, though I think we dodged a couple of bullets.

1404
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 7: So it was quite strange that Australia came onto the radar,

1405
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 7: and I mean the first thing we always look at

1406
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 7: is geology, and our head of technical services said to us,

1407
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 7: this is an opportunity that's worthwhile investigating. And yes, I

1408
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 7: mean we sort of spent about a year doing due diligence.

1409
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 7: We were very fortunate to be a able to secure

1410
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:03,599
Speaker 7: a toe holder, a foothold in the business, initially small

1411
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 7: equidy injection and then follow through us a complete and

1412
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 7: full acquisition. I mean, now if we were to try

1413
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 7: and buy that asset, the price would be it would

1414
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:13,919
Speaker 7: be a multiple as evidenced by Emerson.

1415
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean it's it's quite extraordinary. Things have changed,

1416
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 3: very different, very different to run of mine in Australia

1417
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 3: than to run a mine here.

1418
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 7: I would imagine it is different and let's call it

1419
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 7: different challenges. I would be sometimes less polite, but different

1420
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 7: challenges and it keeps it interesting. You don't have the

1421
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 7: same we have. Firstly, we have a good team, a

1422
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 7: great team of people in Australia. So I mean our

1423
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:42,640
Speaker 7: philosophy is generally in terms of our business decentralized. We

1424
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 7: don't try and control everything from the corporate office. We

1425
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 7: have excellent managers and they sort of run the day

1426
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:50,679
Speaker 7: to day and also we're very aware of the difference

1427
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 7: in culture. Difference in the culture between South Africans and Australians.

1428
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 7: We wouldn't want to impose too many South Africans on

1429
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 7: the Australian business. We've got to know the Australian manager

1430
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 7: that we brought together the assets, they're still there. So yeah,

1431
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 7: I mean, challenges are different. Permitting these different labors significantly

1432
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,600
Speaker 7: more expensive. The fact that you have people that do

1433
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 7: fly and fly out also posers challenges so very different

1434
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 7: in a different landscape to what.

1435
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 3: We used to also becoming more and more useless at

1436
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 3: rugby and cricket, which I mean and they have to

1437
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 3: make allow answers. Were speaking to Kobbas Lutz is your

1438
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 3: shape Shifters, the CEO at Pan African Resources. It's nine minutes.

1439
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 11: The Money Show, Stupid Cruets is brought to you by

1440
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:37,759
Speaker 11: APPSOL Corporate and Investment backing proud sponsors of GTR Africa

1441
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 11: twenty twenty six, enabling trade flows for growth APPS as

1442
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 11: a registers.

1443
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,000
Speaker 2: The Money Show shape Shifters.

1444
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 3: We're speaking to Kribis Lutz is your shape Shifter tonight,

1445
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 3: the CEO at Pan African Resources, a company that's done

1446
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 3: phenomenally well, and particularly at the moment with the gold

1447
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 3: prices the way they are. I mean, when you're I mean,

1448
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 3: I say, jet sitting up make it sound glamorous. I

1449
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 3: know it doesn't matter how you fly, but when you

1450
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 3: land sort of early in the morning, it doesn't feel glamorous.

1451
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 3: I'm very aware of that. Feels all sorts of other things.

1452
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:10,640
Speaker 7: What's that like?

1453
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I presume you're one of those people who

1454
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 3: has the laptop on until you just can't keep your

1455
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 3: eyes open anymore because there's so much to do and

1456
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 3: because there's bee some quiet in which to do it,

1457
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 3: and at the same time, there'll be a lot of

1458
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 3: information you have to be going through ahead of a deal,

1459
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 3: things like that. But that kind of life is it's

1460
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 3: still fun. I mean, from the way you describe it,

1461
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 3: the way you describe the people you work with, it

1462
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 3: must be.

1463
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 7: It is fun. On balance, they are sacrifices, you know,

1464
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 7: sort of in terms of the family. Time away from home.

1465
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 7: Jet leg is sometimes challenging the fact that you don't

1466
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:45,640
Speaker 7: really have a lot of downtime. When you arrive at

1467
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,680
Speaker 7: a destination, you're pretty much right into it. But you know,

1468
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 7: in a way I view those as first world problems.

1469
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 7: It's a great privilege to be able to do what

1470
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 7: we do to create value for not only shareholders, but

1471
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 7: I mean all of our stakeholders, the number of families

1472
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 7: that are dependent on us from us, the employee perspective

1473
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 7: and a supplier perspective, and the communities we benefit. So

1474
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 7: it's a great privilege. It's great to build something out

1475
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 7: of pretty much nothing, or in the case of saying

1476
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 7: an MPTR to like really turn around a desperate situation.

1477
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 7: You get to see the world, You get to meet

1478
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,799
Speaker 7: lots of interesting people. So I mean, if I complain

1479
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 7: about that, then you know, really I don't think it's

1480
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 7: it would be the right thing to do.

1481
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:28,760
Speaker 3: Is there a particular place you've been to that you

1482
01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 3: just want to keep going back to here or overseas well?

1483
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 7: And again it was a benefit is that you sort

1484
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 7: of travel quite a bit. You've got to see see

1485
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 7: art through shareholders, and it great to have built up

1486
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 7: I would say it's through more of the sort of

1487
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:45,479
Speaker 7: benefit of interacting with different shareholders. Guys have been with

1488
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:49,559
Speaker 7: us for so long in London principally where we've been

1489
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 7: going for the last fifteen years now Australia, so it's

1490
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 7: sort of more of a people think. I mean one

1491
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 7: of place that I certainly found challenging to go to

1492
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 7: and I wouldn't really want to visit it again.

1493
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 8: Soon.

1494
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,760
Speaker 7: It would be the Republic of Sudan, where we had

1495
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 7: some very interesting exploration assets. But to call it quits

1496
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:09,639
Speaker 7: for the rest of it, it's you know, it's great

1497
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:11,719
Speaker 7: to do the traveling and to see different places.

1498
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if you get much time to

1499
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 3: relax at all. We have a sort of rule at

1500
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 3: this point in the interviewers. I normally ask the guest

1501
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 3: what do you do for fun? But the rule is

1502
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:25,600
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to say I spent time with my

1503
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 3: family and job, because that's what everybody says. But in

1504
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:30,560
Speaker 3: your case, I feel we may have to bend it

1505
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 3: a little bit because marathons is your thing.

1506
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:35,240
Speaker 7: Well, I used to have to be honest, it was

1507
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 7: a bit lazy last couple of years. The most recent

1508
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 7: big one I did was Comrades twenty three laz where

1509
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:47,759
Speaker 7: we started we started our own running club to benefit

1510
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 7: the wellness of employees and sort of we had actually

1511
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 7: two runners in the top ten first year of having

1512
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,759
Speaker 7: a Pan African running club, we didn't buy any runners,

1513
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:01,720
Speaker 7: so we focused on developing our own talent. Kelly, I

1514
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 7: wasn't in the top ten. I was pretty much lost,

1515
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,360
Speaker 7: but when I realized that of these guys were running,

1516
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:08,519
Speaker 7: I figured I had to do it. So enjoy running.

1517
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 7: I enjoy pursuits where I mean you can take your

1518
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 7: mind off day to day. So enjoy flying.

1519
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 3: It's a hobby I took up about five years ago.

1520
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 7: Diving it's interesting and she sort of also see lots

1521
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 7: of interesting places, so I guess those sort of hobbies.

1522
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 3: It must be amazing to fly a plane. I mean,

1523
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:31,599
Speaker 3: I imagine it's not that big single engine, double engine.

1524
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm sort of rated. Single engine. It's quite daunting.

1525
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:37,960
Speaker 7: The first time you go up by yourself, you realize

1526
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:40,640
Speaker 7: that you can't just pull to the side of the

1527
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:44,760
Speaker 7: road if you have an issue. So that's an interesting way.

1528
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:46,760
Speaker 7: They sort of get you into it as you do

1529
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 7: a couple of circuits, and then when the instructor thinks

1530
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:51,120
Speaker 7: that you're ready, he sort of just tells you to

1531
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 7: stop and he jumps out, and then you have to

1532
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 7: go on your way. But you get used to it

1533
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 7: and it's I mean wonderful to sort of have a

1534
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 7: family and you fly to different places and I mean

1535
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:02,799
Speaker 7: you can get to pretty much anyway in South Africa

1536
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 7: quite quickly.

1537
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:05,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that must be amazing. I mean changes

1538
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 3: changes the game completely and diving not many CEOs. I

1539
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 3: mean I had one guy tell me aerial photography was

1540
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:16,640
Speaker 3: his thing. Still I'm not sure I think he was

1541
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 3: being honest. But diving, I mean that's also something. I mean,

1542
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:22,639
Speaker 3: some people see that as extreme. I mean, I don't

1543
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 3: know what kind of diving you do, but if you're

1544
01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:26,160
Speaker 3: in Australia, I know where you'll want to go drive

1545
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 3: it diving.

1546
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,720
Speaker 7: Well. One of the most interesting places I've actually had

1547
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 7: the privilege of diving was the Red Sea off the

1548
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 7: coast of Sudan, and there's an old British fort that

1549
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:39,679
Speaker 7: built out of limestone on an at all about fifty

1550
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 7: kilometers from the mainland, and as you can imagine, not

1551
01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 7: an awful lot of tourist traffic there. It's one of

1552
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 7: the most interesting things. The mistake we made was to

1553
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 7: eat some of the snacks afterwards, which didn't do too

1554
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 7: well the next day. But other than that, it was

1555
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:56,320
Speaker 7: a fantastic experience. You're still excited about the future of

1556
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 7: mining very much.

1557
01:21:58,000 --> 01:21:58,040
Speaker 9: So.

1558
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 7: I mean I think people of the worlds gotten about mining,

1559
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:03,719
Speaker 7: even though it's one of the only two primary industries,

1560
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:08,800
Speaker 7: and it's coming back into focus very quickly, and I

1561
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 7: think it's going to continue to be an area that

1562
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:14,040
Speaker 7: will be heavily contested in this world where, yeah, the

1563
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 7: major powers fighting over political minerals. I mean there's not

1564
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 7: enough copper doesn't look to us as though there is.

1565
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 7: I mean gold is effectively the currency of the past

1566
01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 7: and now maybe in the future. So it's exciting. As

1567
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:29,880
Speaker 7: I've said, I mean, to be able to make a

1568
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 7: positive difference where you operate is a wonderful privilege.

1569
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Chrivis, I really enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much,

1570
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

1571
01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 7: Thank you very much.

1572
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 3: Crivis Lwitz is the CEO at Pan African Resources. He's

1573
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:44,720
Speaker 3: been your shape shifter tonight on The Money Show.

1574
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 2: The Money Show.

1575
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 11: Stupid Crotes is brought to you by Absolve corporate and

1576
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 11: investment backing crowd sponsors of gtr Africa twenty twenty six,

1577
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 11: enabling trade flows for growth apps as a register ebirthy.

1578
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:05,679
Speaker 3: Well, US market's still negative still concerns, I'm sure about

1579
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 3: the situation around Iran and oil prices. The our Jones

1580
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 3: is down point nine percent, the Nasdaq is down point

1581
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:15,160
Speaker 3: three nine the S and P five hundred at down

1582
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:17,600
Speaker 3: half a percent. So much of course going on, so

1583
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 3: much movement and volatility is the word in markets at

1584
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 3: the moment, and as yet no clear indication of when

1585
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 3: the conflict will end, or even how it will end,

1586
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:30,120
Speaker 3: Which does I suspect mean that we might be in

1587
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 3: this position for a little longer than anyone would feel comfortable.

1588
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:35,600
Speaker 3: We're back tomorrow. Aubrey is next. Good evening, It's eight

1589
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 3: o'clock