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Speaker 1: Your voice, your questions, Your morning Radio with Clement Manateela.

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Speaker 2: This is seven or two twenty five minutes now before

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Speaker 2: eleven outlocks. So a couple of weeks ago we started

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Speaker 2: a series looking at multilateral institutions, and today we're going

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Speaker 2: to be focusing on a continental multilateral institution known as

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Speaker 2: the African Union. And over the past week we've taken

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Speaker 2: you on this journey through the world of multilateral institutions.

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Speaker 2: These are powerful bodies that shape economies, that influenced global health,

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Speaker 2: They steer international corporation, and we've explored a number of

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Speaker 2: them so far. We spoke about the World Bank, We've

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Speaker 2: explored the World Health Organization, the World Trade Organization, the

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Speaker 2: United Nations, and we've just been unpacking how these institutions

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Speaker 2: function and why they meta, especially today in this changing

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Speaker 2: geopolitical environment. Today, we're tending our focus closer to home

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Speaker 2: to an institution that is born out of Africa's own

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Speaker 2: aspirations for unity, progress and collective strength. But how far

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Speaker 2: ahway are we really from these ideals and goals. We've

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Speaker 2: got solution I Do, who is a senior research associate

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Speaker 2: with the Institute for Global Dialogue, who's going to guide

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Speaker 2: us through this conversation, and I'd like to hear from

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Speaker 2: you as well if you've got reflections on the African

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Speaker 2: Union or you've got questions. Oh one one eight eight

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Speaker 2: three oh seven oh two is the number to dial.

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Speaker 2: You can send what's ups as well on seven two,

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Speaker 2: seven O two and seven oh two.

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Speaker 3: Sanusha.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us, Good morning.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Clement, and thank you for the invitation. Always

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Speaker 1: a pleasure to be on the show.

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Speaker 2: Let's start at the beginning with understanding why the African

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Speaker 2: Union was created also to replace the Organization of African Unity.

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Speaker 2: What was that transition about.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think if you look back to that trun

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Speaker 1: that that that shift from the.

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Speaker 3: OAU to the AU was rarely.

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Speaker 1: Around to also reflect around reflect the realities in terms

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Speaker 1: of how the OAU was created in terms of a

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Speaker 1: particular historical epoch, you know, in terms of understanding where

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Speaker 1: the world was in the nineteen sixties when most African

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Speaker 1: countries were gaining independence. How that then trans transitioned in

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Speaker 1: terms of where we were in two thousand and one.

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Speaker 3: But it was also around the.

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Speaker 1: Idea that there was there were structural changes in the

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Speaker 1: continent to reflect the kind of political, economic, and social

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Speaker 1: conditions to try and perhaps to use a phrase, you know,

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Speaker 1: to hopefully upgrade the OAU from where it was in

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Speaker 1: its in its in its inception to where it should

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Speaker 1: be in its evolution. So this is where it comes to,

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Speaker 1: from the oa U to the AU. And also remembering

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Speaker 1: that the world had undergo on significant changes in the

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Speaker 1: period from nineteen ninety two to nineteen ninety nine, and

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Speaker 1: the idea was that the AU would kind of reflect

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Speaker 1: a kind of future and a kind of trajectory and

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Speaker 1: evolution of Africa's architecture going forward and maintain that level

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Speaker 1: of relationships with regard to regional economic communities like your

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Speaker 1: Southern African Development Community, your ECOAS, your EAC COMMERCA, and

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Speaker 1: of course the Arab Makhrab Union, et cetera, to create

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Speaker 1: that kind of building blocks around integration.

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Speaker 3: So integration was key, and it also looked to.

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Speaker 1: How it would use particular frameworks, whether it was the

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Speaker 1: Abuja Treaty and then of course subsequently Agenda twenty sixty

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Speaker 1: three to also kind of dovetail with the kind of

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Speaker 1: integrative model you wanted at the economic level in terms

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Speaker 1: of many harmonizing the context of the AU from a

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Speaker 1: kind of not just a political but also embedding a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of socio economic and peace and stability architecture

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Speaker 1: in where you want to drive the AU and the

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Speaker 1: continent in particular, where the AU is the driver towards

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Speaker 1: that space.

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Speaker 3: Mmmmm hmm.

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Speaker 2: How is it structured though, the African Union and who

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Speaker 2: actually makes its decisions?

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Speaker 1: It's a very complex body, and like all interstate bodies,

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Speaker 1: because that's what it is, right, it's like you.

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Speaker 3: You you have states that actually.

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Speaker 1: Make up the the the the the the vortex of

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Speaker 1: the AU.

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Speaker 3: So at the head of the AU.

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Speaker 1: The way it's structured is that you have every year

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Speaker 1: you will have a member country chairing the AU and

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Speaker 1: that is on a on a on a on a

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Speaker 1: on a kind of rotational basis, So that country that

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Speaker 1: comes will chair for a year and then of course

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Speaker 1: the next incoming country will do that.

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Speaker 3: So so on that.

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Speaker 1: Basis you've got this kind of membership rotation that happens

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Speaker 1: at the country level. Then of course you have the

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Speaker 1: Office of the African Union Commission.

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Speaker 3: Now that's that's an important office.

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Speaker 1: It's almost I wouldn't want to say it's like a

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Speaker 1: secretary general like you see in the UN. But most

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Speaker 1: of these, most of these continental multilateral bodies kind of

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Speaker 1: structure themselves in a in a loose way, in a

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Speaker 1: confederated way like the UN does, and and they have

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Speaker 1: to pay their dues, and of course some of the

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Speaker 1: countries are not paying the dues, et cetera. So there's

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Speaker 1: another financial debate to happen also part of this transition

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Speaker 1: from O WAU to AREO. Then, of course that office

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Speaker 1: has a commissioner and who heads that commission and that

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Speaker 1: office is kind of very very very important in a

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Speaker 1: sense of it sets the direction, It acts as an

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Speaker 1: intermediate between member states, it serves as as the kind

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Speaker 1: of secretariat to the AU. And then of course you

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Speaker 1: have the Pan African Parliament, which is then taken from

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Speaker 1: all of the national.

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Speaker 3: Parliaments across then across the continent.

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Speaker 1: But there's a there's an interesting dynamic because the Pan

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Speaker 1: African Parliament, which you know Clement sits in Madrid.

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Speaker 3: Here in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that there's also a rotational basis

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Speaker 1: of who heads the Pan African Parliament. From a chearing perspective,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if you remember, I think it

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Speaker 1: was about two years ago there was a whole scuffle

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Speaker 1: at the Midrid PAP at the Yeah where they were

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Speaker 1: fighting over which regional block was actually kind of undermining it.

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Speaker 1: And there was and there was this whole dynamic of

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Speaker 1: leveraging votes and buying votes and I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: it was there where somebody actually hijack the ballot box.

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Speaker 1: And it was fascinating because again you got that rotational thing.

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Speaker 1: And then of course you have all of your commissions,

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Speaker 1: so you have your your Peace and Security Commission, you

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Speaker 1: have your Trade and Commission, you have Infrastructure Commission, and

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Speaker 1: then you have commissioners of these various commissions which are

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Speaker 1: then supposed to play a critical role in advancing the

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Speaker 1: kind of intercontinental development program.

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Speaker 3: Not forgetting that NETPAD, that.

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Speaker 1: New the the new African Partnership for Development is now

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Speaker 1: called order NETPAD, which is the African Union Development Agency,

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Speaker 1: And that was also very interesting when it wastes. When

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Speaker 1: it's inception came out, they were competing blocks as well

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Speaker 1: around that. And then you also then have linked to

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Speaker 1: this is and I think it plays more for voluntary

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Speaker 1: I mean it's more for a voluntary role. Is the

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Speaker 1: is the African pair of your mechanism notwithstanding that, So

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Speaker 1: that's the structure. But what's interesting is that the structure

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Speaker 1: is housed in Ethiopia. So you have two conference, two

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Speaker 1: AU conferences a year.

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Speaker 3: One is the kind of the.

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Speaker 1: Static one that happens every year in Ethiopia in around

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Speaker 1: the end of January, beginning of February or middle of February,

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Speaker 1: and then in June and July you have the rotational

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Speaker 1: presidency of who's the incoming president, and then of course

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Speaker 1: you have that that country hosting the summit, and then

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Speaker 1: of course you have the kind of discussions happen there.

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Speaker 3: So in a nutshell, from a technical.

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Speaker 1: Institutional level, it's very layered, it's very bureaucratic, and of

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Speaker 1: course you've got to nominate commissioners to head these various commissions,

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Speaker 1: and it's a very competitive process. I think South Africa's

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Speaker 1: commissioner who was part of dt I see Larato Matobojo.

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Speaker 3: She's now heading one.

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Speaker 1: Of her key institutions there, which is I think the

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Speaker 1: infrastructure one.

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Speaker 3: But it's a competitive thing.

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Speaker 1: Who gets which country, which country puts in a candidate,

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Speaker 1: who kept who gets that that that especially the peace

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Speaker 1: and security, especially the trade. I mean it's very competitive.

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Speaker 1: And then linked to that is your u N agencies

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Speaker 1: like your u N Agency for Economic Development.

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Speaker 3: And then if you've got the A the the.

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Speaker 1: The u N offers to the AU, then you have

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Speaker 1: un UNIDO. You can have it at a country level.

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Speaker 1: So it's very interesting. But I think the real nuts

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Speaker 1: and bolts of this is really in terms of what

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Speaker 1: is the kind of power does the A YOU have

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Speaker 1: in terms of whether.

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Speaker 3: It's it's it's it's decision making. Is uh is binding

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Speaker 3: on member states?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and we'll get to some of the successes

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Speaker 2: of of the African Union when we look at the

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Speaker 2: decisions made. But from from what you've observed, Susha, is

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Speaker 2: the a YOU still relevant for the continent because we

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Speaker 2: we live in a continent that's still faces a number

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Speaker 2: of challenges, whether it's hunger, poverty, the politics of exclusivity,

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Speaker 2: xenophobia has been an issue before their effects of climate change,

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Speaker 2: and many others. So is the AAU still relevant in

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Speaker 2: addressing the various challenges confronting the continent Because it's over

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Speaker 2: sixty years now. We also have Agenda of Vision twenty

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Speaker 2: sixty three and I often wonder, given where we find ourselves,

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Speaker 2: is that a pipe dream or is it really a genuine,

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Speaker 2: concrete plan for a better Africa.

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Speaker 1: I'm being facetious, Jana Clement. The question I always have

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Speaker 1: about Agenda twenty sixty three or Vision sixty twenty sixty

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Speaker 1: three is how many.

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Speaker 3: Of us are going to be alive at that point

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Speaker 3: to see its fruition.

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Speaker 1: But I think the point you're raising about is the

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Speaker 1: AU still relevant or is it still fit for purpose?

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Speaker 1: Is really a bigger existential question of all multilateral institutions,

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Speaker 1: whether it's in the continent or whether it is outside

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Speaker 1: of Africa, or we're talking about the bigger, broader global

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Speaker 1: architecture of governance, and we're seeing the same, the same

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Speaker 1: questions being asked around the credibility of the UN and

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Speaker 1: particularly the credibility of institutions. Where in this current kind

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Speaker 1: of global architecture, which can be described as a complex turbulence,

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Speaker 1: you you don't know, you know, how much does this

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Speaker 1: actually have traction? How how do you bring in traction

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Speaker 1: in terms of saying to member states.

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Speaker 3: You've got to.

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Speaker 1: Abide by these by these decisions. And I think this

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Speaker 1: is where the real the real kind of of of issue,

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Speaker 1: or the real kind of despair comes because for for

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Speaker 1: the AAU, like any other multilateral body UH, including those

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Speaker 1: regional bodies as well, the challenge that these institutions have

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Speaker 1: is the question of state sovereignty that the members the

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Speaker 1: the the the members of the AURE actually members that

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Speaker 1: hold that that that assert their state of sovereignty and

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Speaker 1: their interest and so if they don't want to take

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Speaker 1: up the issue, or if they become more complacent and

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Speaker 1: take the issue in a much more uh superficial way

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Speaker 1: or in a cosmetic way, it's not going to create

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Speaker 1: real wins. So I think where where we see some

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Speaker 1: of those wins that come out of the AU is

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Speaker 1: is when our own incurs in Gossjamani Zuma was was

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Speaker 1: the AU commissioned chair UH. It caused a lot of

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Speaker 1: controversy because one of the one of the implicit kind

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Speaker 1: of agreements which is not on paper, but it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a gentleman's agreement that the five big countries of

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Speaker 1: the of the African Union South Africa, Egypt, Nigeria, Kenya

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Speaker 1: and I'm forgetting one other, they don't necessarily put candidates

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Speaker 1: out for the AU commission share position. But unfortunately South

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Speaker 1: Africa did that under Jacob Zuma's presidency and there was

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of questions as to why that happened.

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Speaker 3: But that also caused this kind of tension.

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Speaker 1: But one of the good things that came out of it,

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Speaker 1: and some countries will disagree, some analysts will will agree

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Speaker 1: or disagree, is that she did bring out Agenda twenty

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Speaker 1: sixty three.

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Speaker 3: But she did that because there was.

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Speaker 1: No kind of talking about how do we get to

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Speaker 1: the African Continental Free Trade Agreement.

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Speaker 3: We kept hearing.

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Speaker 1: About international we kept hearing about economic integration and other

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Speaker 1: forms of regional integration, and so there was no kind

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Speaker 1: of pushing the needle on that.

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Speaker 3: So through this she.

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Speaker 1: Managed to then get the discussion going, push the kind

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Speaker 1: of traction around the ACFTA, and we see the ACFTA

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Speaker 1: being adopted with countries all depositing and domesticating instruments around

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Speaker 1: the aca A. Safety has a long way to go,

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Speaker 1: but nevertheless it got that going.

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Speaker 3: But I think the.

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Speaker 1: Challenge is when member states see their sort ofeignity being

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Speaker 1: threatened and they don't want to take action. One of

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Speaker 1: the key things was was was when Rwanda under Paul

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Speaker 1: Kagame was heading up the AU, he came up with

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Speaker 1: the with the reform program of how do you actually

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Speaker 1: reform the AU, but more importantly in terms of financial

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Speaker 1: contribution and how this work happened. That has basically been

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Speaker 1: in a kind of standstill for the moment because countries

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Speaker 1: are not also thinking about how did they contribute to

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Speaker 1: their own AU and get their agency because I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of the external funding which is now dranging

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Speaker 1: up is going to create it has created challenges because

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Speaker 1: odas dranging up, the overseas development assistance is draying up

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Speaker 1: from your your external partners like the EU. But the

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Speaker 1: challenge is that you've got to fund your own institution

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Speaker 1: and if you're not funding it, then you are basically

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Speaker 1: relying on external partners and therefore your sovereignty gets come

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Speaker 1: from and your interest is not your interest. One final

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Speaker 1: point is the Tabo and Beaky Panel on Illicit Financial Flows,

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Speaker 1: which it also sits within.

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Speaker 3: The context of the AU.

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Speaker 1: I think if you look at that panel and you

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Speaker 1: look at the reports that have come out in terms

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Speaker 1: of how much of money illicitly leaves the continent over

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Speaker 1: about one hundred billion dollars a year, that could be

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Speaker 1: used very very systematically and in a very critical way

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Speaker 1: to fund your institutions in the continent as well as

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Speaker 1: to not be not be burdened by debt.

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Speaker 2: Have we are there any missed opportunities here? So, Nisha,

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Speaker 2: especially now in this changing geopolitical environment, how can the

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Speaker 2: AU position itself so that it can leverage from the

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Speaker 2: advantages it has? I mean, we are over what one

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Speaker 2: point five billion people here, We account for roughly eighteen

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Speaker 2: percent of the world's population. This is the set the

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Speaker 2: world's second most populars continent. And what's even more interesting

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Speaker 2: is is that it's characterized by the youngest medium age globally.

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Speaker 2: So the opportunities here for us to be a stronger

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Speaker 2: collective voice. But have we missed out on those opportunities

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Speaker 2: because I don't think the African Union is taken seriously

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Speaker 2: even externally. I mean I don't think we take it

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Speaker 2: seriously ourselves here on the continent.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting lement is the fact that if

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Speaker 1: we circle back to the question of the financial architecture

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Speaker 1: of the EU.

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Speaker 3: I think, when you when you when.

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Speaker 1: You have a situation where you're for your your peace

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Speaker 1: and security budget is externally financed, over two thirds of

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Speaker 1: it is financed by the EU, You're not actually bringing

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Speaker 1: your agency and making your agency front and center. You're

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Speaker 1: not you're not leveraging your agency, and that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a challenge.

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Speaker 3: The most opportunities, I think is to.

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Speaker 1: To try and un understand that you have to fund yourself,

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Speaker 1: you have to be resourced independent, and you also have

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Speaker 1: to start talking about what it is that is extracted

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Speaker 1: from Africa and then basically Africa becomes a dependent continent

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Speaker 1: on external goods and services and finished products. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I think, uh, it's been a slow burn,

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Speaker 1: I would say, uh, and it's been a painful one

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Speaker 1: at that because very often when you see the political

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Speaker 1: issues around where countries have actually completely uh eroded.

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Speaker 3: Uh, the the the the dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Or the or the or the or the architecture of

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Speaker 1: democratic processes and that doesn't take that is not being

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Speaker 1: taken on by the AU. I think that is where

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Speaker 1: this young generation, the youngest age medium of young people

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Speaker 1: that are sitting in the continent are becoming frustrated. So

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Speaker 1: you saw what happened in Kenya last year, you saw

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Speaker 1: what happened in Tanzania.

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Speaker 3: You're seeing these.

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Speaker 1: These these these is prolific impacts of the gen Z

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Speaker 1: Rising and saying all people, your time is no longer.

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Speaker 1: And this is what is very interesting, because they are

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Speaker 1: frustrated not by the fact that you know, it's about

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Speaker 1: that they're.

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Speaker 3: Not getting what they want.

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Speaker 1: They frustrated because the system continues to perpetuate this kind

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Speaker 1: of gediatric politics in the continent, and that in itself

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Speaker 1: means that you're not listening to young people to say,

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Speaker 1: we want our voice to be heard, but you are

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Speaker 1: mortgaging our future and you're burdening us with taxes and

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Speaker 1: debt repayments and interest repayments, which.

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Speaker 3: Is not our doing.

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Speaker 1: So I think what is very critical is that the

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Speaker 1: missed opportunity is if the AU is not listening, particularly

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Speaker 1: those leaders sitting the fifty three to fifty four members

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Speaker 1: and I think Morocco still has become a member now,

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Speaker 1: so the fifty four members that are sitting in the

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Speaker 1: African Union in Addis Ababa, and they're not listening to

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Speaker 1: young people because that is the the real pivot where

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Speaker 1: you're going to find it very difficult to keep sustaining

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Speaker 1: yourself through means of suppression and trying to push these

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Speaker 1: individuals to the to the to the breaking point.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's what's going to happen. So we have.

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Speaker 1: Elections in the continent where, for example, these elections are.

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Speaker 3: Becoming more and more.

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Speaker 1: What do you call this dangerous and perilous because they're

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Speaker 1: not representing what people want. So I think the biggest

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Speaker 1: challenge that the area will faces now is how to

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Speaker 1: sort of these finances to become independent, but to have

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Speaker 1: inclusion of young voices, because that's where they are failing

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Speaker 1: to understand that young people are not going to be

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Speaker 1: as complacent as their parents.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wonder how we fare in comparison to

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Speaker 2: our peers in developing countries. I mean, take there, what

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Speaker 2: was that again, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, or

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Speaker 2: you take the Organization of American States. You can add

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Speaker 2: that Arab League there as well.

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Speaker 3: How do we fail?

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Speaker 2: And are there specific successes on the continent that you

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Speaker 2: think can be attributed to this organization? Because what comes

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Speaker 2: to mind probably two things. It's an African Continental Free

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Speaker 2: Trade Agreement. You know. One thing that comes to mind,

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Speaker 2: there are many opportunities offered by this in order to

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Speaker 2: promote promote inter Africa trade. And another success that comes

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Speaker 2: to mind is remember that negotiation in South Africa that

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Speaker 2: was organized by the AU. It resulted in a piece

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Speaker 2: deal between the Ethiopian government and the Tegre's People's Liberation Front.

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Speaker 2: But beyond that, are there specific things we can point

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Speaker 2: to and say, look, this is the reason of the AU,

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Speaker 2: that's why this body is so important.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just want to make a small point about

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Speaker 1: comparing to Asian or comparing to the Arab Asian is

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Speaker 1: more an economic political block and it's very small. But

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Speaker 1: what it did very well was to manage the big

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Speaker 1: countries like China and how they manage China to not

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Speaker 1: become a dominant actor in Ajian. So it's Arean still

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Speaker 1: maintains that level of independence. I think you've got to

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Speaker 1: be careful of how do you compare the AU, which

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Speaker 1: is much larger, much bigger.

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Speaker 3: To two institutions.

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Speaker 1: What I think with the other Arab Mahrab Union, there's

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Speaker 1: always been deferring opinion about its effectiveness and its efficacy.

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Speaker 3: I think where the AU that could do very well.

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Speaker 1: It has one of one of the things that it

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Speaker 1: can use very successfully because civil society is quite front

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Speaker 1: and center here.

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Speaker 3: But one of the things.

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Speaker 1: That they that they that they that they need to

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Speaker 1: push forward on is the people's coat in Banjul, and

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Speaker 1: the people's coat is really around African human I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's about human rights and people's rights, and those are

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Speaker 1: key areas in order for for for for the AU

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Speaker 1: to think about how does that court, not not to

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Speaker 1: not to predicate it on the i c C or

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Speaker 1: the i c J, but to predicate it on the

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Speaker 1: idea that.

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Speaker 3: How does the resolve.

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Speaker 1: Problems, how does it resolve economic issues, how does it

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Speaker 1: resolve political disputes? Not basically going outside of the continent,

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Speaker 1: because now we're beginning to see how compromise the ic

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Speaker 1: C is where we're hearing about the US sanctioning key

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Speaker 1: members of the ic C and they can't basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: use their credit cards and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But what I think is.

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Speaker 1: That issues start to to strengthen that institution.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 1: One of the saddest things that happened in Southern Africa

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Speaker 1: was the whole kind of d escalation or the du

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Speaker 1: the de stabilization of the Sadic Tribunal because it was

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Speaker 1: about a political game. And I think these are institutions

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Speaker 1: that need to be re re re re resurrected, but

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Speaker 1: resurrected in a manner that says this is about the

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Speaker 1: people's rights andesting. So I think that is where it

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Speaker 1: becomes critical for the AU. But as long as the

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Speaker 1: AU still remains state centric with to keep having these challenges.

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Speaker 1: But I think at some point there's going to be

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Speaker 1: a tipping point on the AU because again, the AU

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Speaker 1: is modeled around the EU, it's modeled around the UN,

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Speaker 1: and these institutions are beginning to show.

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Speaker 3: Vulnerabilities.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so nishan I do.

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Speaker 3: You've been great.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us for this chat.

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Speaker 2: She's a Research Associate Fellow with the Institute for Global Dialogues.