Speaker 1: Lunch Boy with Pilpa Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring
Speaker 1: with Wendy Nola.
Speaker 2: Before we bring in Wendy.
Speaker 3: Tracy, thanks for your message, already responding saying, yay, I
Speaker 3: love rugby and I've tried for years but still don't
Speaker 3: understand the rules. Now with two boys playing the game,
Speaker 3: I need to understand the rule book from a sport dummy. Well,
Speaker 3: Tracy's book to spot with us on Tuesday at two
Speaker 3: o'clock next week. I hope you will join us and
Speaker 3: learn more about the sport of rugby.
Speaker 2: Tracy, thanks for the enthusiasm.
Speaker 3: We're all really excited about the series and we've got
Speaker 3: some fantastic guests lined up, so really looking forward to it.
Speaker 3: For now, though, we are switching our focus to consumer
Speaker 3: affairs and Wendy Nooda joining us by a zoom this
Speaker 3: afternoon from Johannesburg. We are going to be discussing another
Speaker 3: aspect of risk associated with online shopping, and this is
Speaker 3: particularly today, the problems associated with platforms that include third
Speaker 3: party vendors. If you are quite sure what that means,
Speaker 3: we'll explain in just a moment, but just to say,
Speaker 3: if you've had experience with these issues that we're talking
Speaker 3: about today. If you'd like to join the conversation, give
Speaker 3: us a WhatsApp to seven two five six seven one
Speaker 3: five six seven or a call to two one four
Speaker 3: four six o five six seven.
Speaker 4: Great.
Speaker 2: Have you with us, Wendy welcome. We don't seem to have.
Speaker 3: Audio on your sound Wendy, if you can just check
Speaker 3: that you're not muted on the zoom on that end,
Speaker 3: apologies for that. Wendy joining us from Johannesburg this afternoon
Speaker 3: to discuss the matter, and.
Speaker 2: There we go. I think we've got you now, Wendy. Welcome,
Speaker 2: Rookie Era.
Speaker 5: Sorry, yes, good to be with you.
Speaker 3: There's been a while since we did by zoom, so
Speaker 3: you are forgiven, Wenny. Today's topic isn't just fueled by
Speaker 3: listener complaints, although we have had a number of those.
Speaker 3: It's actually been flagged as a problem by the Consumer
Speaker 3: Goods and Services on But hasn't.
Speaker 5: It Yes, indeed to the umbut who is the Consumer
Speaker 5: Goods and Services on Board?
Speaker 4: Lee Sobrati.
Speaker 5: He spoke out just last week at the release of
Speaker 5: the ubert's twenty twenty four to twenty five an Your Report,
Speaker 5: But he actually had led this issue many consumers buying,
Speaker 5: as you said, products on large, well known retailed websites,
Speaker 5: so there's a trust factor there, right, not realizing that
Speaker 5: they are actually dealing with an unknown third party vendor
Speaker 5: that are being you know, that are piggybacking on that
Speaker 5: big player being hosted on the site. And obviously there's
Speaker 5: a fee that they pay for that. But it's only
Speaker 5: so many of these these transactions. These purchases would go
Speaker 5: off without a hitch, no problem, but when things go
Speaker 5: wrong with the product or the delivery, or the customer
Speaker 5: realizes that, you know, they were doing business with a
Speaker 5: company that they you know, they didn't realize, then there
Speaker 5: can be disputes and some you know, unfortunate kind of dispute, well,
Speaker 5: disputes and problems that arise out of that.
Speaker 2: It all sounds quite familiar.
Speaker 3: We've actually tackled a case or two like this fairly recently, Wendy.
Speaker 5: Yes, the one was a little while ago, but it
Speaker 5: was one of my standout cases. It was a summerset
Speaker 5: where man who bought a laptop from take a Lot
Speaker 5: which turned out to be stolen. Weirdly, I think it
Speaker 5: was more more than a year. I mean close to
Speaker 5: two years later, he was working on it and suddenly
Speaker 5: this screen popped up, freezing his his laptop, making it
Speaker 5: unusable for him, and saying that it was stolen from
Speaker 5: a government department, a contry member, which one remember that,
Speaker 5: and yeah, and so naturally he wanted, you know, a refund,
Speaker 5: and it got very messy, went on for months and months,
Speaker 5: even after our intervention, and finally he you know, take
Speaker 5: a lot to take responsibility. And the other one was
Speaker 5: was earlier this year Amanda, also of Cape Town, she
Speaker 5: ordered a Guardina specific brand, well known, reputable brand of
Speaker 5: host pipe off the Macro website, only to receive a
Speaker 5: cheap and nasty knockoff. She was given a real run
Speaker 5: around when she tried to return it because once again
Speaker 5: the seller was not actually Macro itself but a third
Speaker 5: party vendors selling on their platform. And she was finally refunded.
Speaker 5: I think it was two months after the purchase, after
Speaker 5: she came to us for help.
Speaker 3: Okay, so thanks thanks for reminding us of those examples.
Speaker 3: I'm sure listeners will remember them. But Wendy, as you
Speaker 3: said at the start, it's not just our complainants raising
Speaker 3: the red flags here. Last week the consumer goods and
Speaker 3: services Onbitsman Lisa Brati highlighted this issue in the release
Speaker 3: of the latest annual reports. Can you tell us a
Speaker 3: little bit of an overview of what he said?
Speaker 5: No, I think it's best for me to quote exactly
Speaker 5: from his report. He said, it's clear that many consumers
Speaker 5: do not understand the implications of transacting with legitimate online
Speaker 5: platforms that host third party suppliers commonly referred to as marketplaces.
Speaker 5: As these proliferate, he said, we anticipate that's the orbit's
Speaker 5: office that more complaints from consumers who think they are
Speaker 5: trading with a well known platform, only to find themselves
Speaker 5: having to deal with an unknown vendor when things go wrong.
Speaker 5: He then went on to say that his office was
Speaker 5: working hard to ensure that consumers, especially vulnerable ones, understand
Speaker 5: what to look for when shopping on marketplaces. He says,
Speaker 5: the tease agencies are usually clear in this regard, but
Speaker 5: a surprising number of people, even experienced online shoppers, fail
Speaker 5: to read them.
Speaker 4: And don't we know that.
Speaker 2: We know that all too well. Guilty has charged and
Speaker 2: we've spoken about this very very often.
Speaker 3: When there were particular key issues within the sort of
Speaker 3: category of problems that he flagged. You want to just
Speaker 3: elaborate for us.
Speaker 5: Sure, so he said, There include who exactly is responsible
Speaker 5: for the delivery of the goods and the successful delivery
Speaker 5: of the goods. Who must provide customers or their receipt
Speaker 5: as proof of purchase, especially when it comes to needing
Speaker 5: to lodge a warranty with the manufacturer on the goods
Speaker 5: purchased if they become somehow effective.
Speaker 4: And also whether the housing this.
Speaker 5: Is very important, not housing, whether the hosting platform that
Speaker 5: big name will assist with a plant relating to non
Speaker 5: delivery or return should goods become defective, because you really
Speaker 5: don't want to be left on your own trying to
Speaker 5: deal with a third party that you didn't even know
Speaker 5: existed before you place the order came.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it.
Speaker 5: Would seem then, judging from his remarks, which went on
Speaker 5: for a number of paragraphs in his report, that that
Speaker 5: office has also been fielding complaints around this issue.
Speaker 3: Okay, so we've had a couple of new ones as well.
Speaker 3: Do you want to tell us about the case of
Speaker 3: Kyle Wells also here in cape to on our caped
Speaker 3: on shoppers having unfortunes experiences by the looks of things.
Speaker 2: What happened?
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the case I took up.
Speaker 5: He bought a laptop on Take a Lot last April,
Speaker 5: and when its charger exploded earlier this year, he went
Speaker 5: looking for an invoice on the app in order to
Speaker 5: make a warranty claim it was founder warranty.
Speaker 4: When he couldn't find.
Speaker 5: Any invoice or any proof of purchase, he turned to
Speaker 5: Take a Lot for help, but Take a Lot said
Speaker 5: its third party supplier was nonrous re sponsors to its
Speaker 5: request to provide said proof of purchase. Take a Lot's
Speaker 5: tease and c state that third party sellers are responsible
Speaker 5: for providing an invoice to the registered user that would
Speaker 5: be the buyer KYL in this case. But the UMBERT
Speaker 5: says consumer protection laws compel intermediaries that's their technical name
Speaker 5: in terms of the CPA, such as Take a Lot,
Speaker 5: to ensure that a full record of the transaction be
Speaker 5: provided to the consumer. Take a Lot in this case
Speaker 5: said well, we can't get hold of them. You know,
Speaker 5: it's over to you. And he came to me and said,
Speaker 5: well if I can't get hold if they can't get
Speaker 5: hold of them, I don't take a Lot, am I
Speaker 5: supposed exactly.
Speaker 3: I mean, Wendy, surely these platforms should be doing due
Speaker 3: diligence about who they allowed to trade as a third party.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's in their best interests because it's their
Speaker 3: reputation that's compromised.
Speaker 2: Kyle isn't telling his.
Speaker 3: Friends I bought a laptop and the charger exploded, and
Speaker 3: I bought it from third party vendor Xyzz.
Speaker 2: He's telling them me bought it on Take a Lot exactly.
Speaker 4: So Take a Lot.
Speaker 5: When I questioned them about this, said that all third
Speaker 5: party sellers have to go through a robust vetting process
Speaker 5: before they can start trading on the platform.
Speaker 4: I was told.
Speaker 5: They are required to submit documentation and information which is
Speaker 5: automatically checked and validated using a matrix of databases. They
Speaker 5: check with plice, and they check company registration records and
Speaker 5: if this and also the seller's sources of supply are
Speaker 5: validated using previous invoice checks. If the seller doesn't pass
Speaker 5: the checks and overall vetting process, they are not permitted
Speaker 5: to trade on Take a Lot, I was told. And
Speaker 5: on the rare occasions when the checks and balances fail,
Speaker 5: as in this case, we assist customers as best as
Speaker 5: possible and then they said, you know that the cell
Speaker 5: had been unresponsive in this case.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, horrible frog.
Speaker 3: Okay, you source off the frog while I read a
Speaker 3: question that's coming from Jenny, who I think is asking
Speaker 3: the million dollar questions that everyone's wondering. If I've bought
Speaker 3: an item from Take a Lot, surely my contract is
Speaker 3: with Take a Lot rather than with the vendor who
Speaker 3: supplied the item to Take a Lot.
Speaker 2: And we're going to delve Jenny. Thanksful for that, You've
Speaker 2: nailed it.
Speaker 3: That is the key question here is where does the
Speaker 3: responsibility sit in that contractual relationship. And we're going to
Speaker 3: delve a little bit into that because the omber has
Speaker 3: had quite a lot to say about how the law
Speaker 3: views all the parties in this case. When the important
Speaker 3: to say that, in Kyle's case, Take a Lot has
Speaker 3: suspended the supplier of that exploding laptop charger until such
Speaker 3: time as they have been able to establish contact with
Speaker 3: them and resolve this matter. But in the meantime, I mean,
Speaker 3: Kyle's got no way of lodging a warranty claim in
Speaker 3: respect of the defective product.
Speaker 5: Indeed, but after I'd started making a bit of noise
Speaker 5: about this and the OMBUD had champed in with his
Speaker 5: feelings on the matter. Take a Lot didn't tell me this,
Speaker 5: but they let Kyle know that they were giving him
Speaker 5: a replacement laptop and he got said laptop, so he
Speaker 5: was sorted out that way. But yes, it does speak
Speaker 5: to the responsibility factor when you go to a certain
Speaker 5: retail online retail site and you have a certain level
Speaker 5: of you feel a certain level of comfort and protection.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that what is it in reality?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Okay, Now to Journey's point about here, where does the
Speaker 3: responsibility lie here? Who is your contract with and what
Speaker 3: are the obligations in that contractual relationship? When you asked
Speaker 3: the OMBUT for comment on this case, and they were
Speaker 3: absolutely clear that in terms of the Consumer Protection Act,
Speaker 3: and intermediary in any transaction has got to keep proper
Speaker 3: records of all relationships and transactions, and that for the
Speaker 3: purposes of e commerce, they would regard the hosting platform
Speaker 3: as an intermediary. So, in other words, whether it's take
Speaker 3: a Lot or Macro or any other major sales platform
Speaker 3: that is hosting a third party vendor, the major platform
Speaker 3: is regarded officially as an intermediary and they are obliged
Speaker 3: to comply with the Consumer Protection Act in that regard.
Speaker 3: So they were absolutely unequivocal in that.
Speaker 5: So the major plate there intermedia. Yeah, there's exactly, and
Speaker 5: they must comply with what the Act says about that
Speaker 5: and their responsibilities accordingly.
Speaker 3: Okay, as a matter of interest, did he give you
Speaker 3: any indication of just how many of these kinds of
Speaker 3: complaints they are receiving about third party vendors?
Speaker 5: No, they in the annual report released last thursday. As
Speaker 5: I said, there were a lot of stats in there
Speaker 5: and break certain breakdowns, but it doesn't dive that deep
Speaker 5: in terms of, you know what categories of online complaints.
Speaker 5: Obviously this was one of them to be singled out.
Speaker 5: But all all they shared was that of the twelve
Speaker 5: two hundred odd complaints received between the beginning of March
Speaker 5: last year and the end of February this year, online
Speaker 5: complaints with the largest category at nineteen percent. And that
Speaker 5: was a trend that began in twenty twenty when a
Speaker 5: lot of people who had been sitting on the sad lands,
Speaker 5: maybe only you know, booking an airline ticket online but
Speaker 5: not shopping, you know, jumped in with both feet and
Speaker 5: as the numbers go up, as the online starts from
Speaker 5: life eight, so you know the number of complaints about
Speaker 5: things going wrong then you know continue to arise every
Speaker 5: year proportionately with with the Onbird's office.
Speaker 3: I've just done a quick calculation in the background here,
Speaker 3: and if they've received twelve two hundred and seven complaints
Speaker 3: in a single year, that means approximately thirty three people
Speaker 3: are lodging complaints every single day of the year, Wendy. Okay,
Speaker 3: And I'm surprised you've said that, So six or seven
Speaker 3: online complaints that with twenty percent is the accurate figure.
Speaker 3: That's six or seven complaints a day. As you said,
Speaker 3: considering the huge escalation in online shopping usage, I'm also
Speaker 3: a bit surprised the figure isn't higher than that.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: You also had an interesting engagement with another local supplier, Wendy,
Speaker 3: about another aspect to the third party story, which is
Speaker 3: third party vendors selling knockoffs of legitimate brands products.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So the Waco Group, which owns the Yellow brand, shared
Speaker 5: with me is concerns about Yellow knockoffs being put up
Speaker 5: for sale by vendors on various online marketplace places. I
Speaker 5: was told by their head of marketing, Carl Lucas that
Speaker 5: it happens, you know, across the board, take a lot, Amazon,
Speaker 5: Macro and others. He says, Fortunately, we have established channels
Speaker 5: within those e retailers to report and remove fake listings,
Speaker 5: and now that the removal of those listings happens usually
Speaker 5: within twenty four hours in the space of a month. Recently,
Speaker 5: he said, I think it's June to July, the Wicco
Speaker 5: team successfully requested online retailers to remove more than one
Speaker 5: hundred fake listings and in one month, they said. He said,
Speaker 5: the company puts that down, you know, being able to
Speaker 5: do it, you know, efficiently and quickly in you know,
Speaker 5: with their relationship with those marketplaces. It's due to their
Speaker 5: size and resources. But he said, smaller brands and customers
Speaker 5: probably don't stand a chance. And we're sure these fraudsters
Speaker 5: are targeting other shopping categories too, and we know that
Speaker 5: they are.
Speaker 4: So what the.
Speaker 5: Fakers are doing, I'm calling them the fake is they
Speaker 5: use various combination of Cello's brand name, product titles, images,
Speaker 5: written descriptions, even the product codes on those marketplace, says,
Speaker 5: you know, piggybacking on the on the big names, creating
Speaker 5: the impression that customers are purchasing authentic Sealo items and
Speaker 5: he says, I've lost my place.
Speaker 4: When they.
Speaker 5: When they complain, when they when they when they report this,
Speaker 5: obviously they are removed quickly. But the people fulfilling those
Speaker 5: orders though, the ones that you know where customers buy
Speaker 5: before the listings are removed, they're using substant materials and constructions,
Speaker 5: and they they reckon.
Speaker 4: It's small backyard.
Speaker 5: Artfits just seeing the pictures and trying to do a
Speaker 5: cobble together and not something that looks but usually not
Speaker 5: normally quite badly, and the moment there arrived, the purchaser
Speaker 5: knows something that is definitely wrong. But you can imagine
Speaker 5: the damage to the brand if someone does, think well,
Speaker 5: because the complaints would go to them, right, what if
Speaker 5: you what kind of quality is this?
Speaker 2: Yew Okay, thanks for flagging that.
Speaker 3: After the news break, we're going to come back to
Speaker 3: another aspect of the third party vendor issue that also
Speaker 3: applies to other brands and established platforms as well. So
Speaker 3: stay with us, and if you've had experience with this
Speaker 3: issue of buying from a major platform thinking you were
Speaker 3: buying directly from that platform, only to discover that you'd
Speaker 3: been receiving an item from a third party vendor and
Speaker 3: then had difficulty engaging with them for any reason.
Speaker 1: WhatsApp seven to five, six seven one, six to seven.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the what's up from Moyra with an example
Speaker 3: of what we've just been discussing, and then Melane will
Speaker 3: get to your particular issue in just a moment because
Speaker 3: it's directly relevant to the next thing we want to
Speaker 3: talk about first. Though, Moyra has had the experience Wendy.
Speaker 3: She says in May, I bought a Mylex vacuum from
Speaker 3: Lout and when it broke five weeks ago, was told
Speaker 3: I need to get in touch directly with the supplier
Speaker 3: to sort it out. I had a long wait, firstly
Speaker 3: for that first feedback from lut and then secondly for
Speaker 3: feedback from Mylex themselves, and I still don't have a
Speaker 3: vacuum cleaner, is her comment. She said happily. The previous
Speaker 3: time she had an issue with something bought on Take
Speaker 3: a Lot, she again was asked to deal no, sorry,
Speaker 3: take a Lot. I bought a scale from Take a Lot,
Speaker 3: she says, it didn't work. They sent me a replacement
Speaker 3: that also didn't work. I sent it back and was
Speaker 3: given credit, but I did then contact the supplier who
Speaker 3: curied me a new scale at no cost, So in
Speaker 3: that case it ended well for Moira. In fact, she
Speaker 3: got a double whammy. She got a new scale and
Speaker 3: she got a credit from Take a Lot.
Speaker 2: So two weeks should rectify that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, but you should rectify one thing about the credit.
Speaker 5: The retailers tend to default to that, but you don't
Speaker 5: have to accept that. If you want to refund, you're
Speaker 5: entitled to it, and they normally do say that if
Speaker 5: you if you prefer, But what they should ideally do
Speaker 5: is before they do anything, say which would you like
Speaker 5: if you're a regular shopper. On that side, it makes
Speaker 5: sense to have a credit because it's immediate, and if
Speaker 5: it's a refund it takes much longer. So I'm just
Speaker 5: just saying, if you want your money back, you don't
Speaker 5: have to accept a credit.
Speaker 4: If the dict is defective, do you have.
Speaker 3: To accept being told you must sort it out with
Speaker 3: the supplier or should it not be the platform you
Speaker 3: bought it from?
Speaker 2: Problem to rectify?
Speaker 4: I think no.
Speaker 5: If it's in the first six months, certainly under the
Speaker 5: CPA they must take responsibility, and certainly in a case
Speaker 5: like this, where the customer is coming to you as
Speaker 5: this reputable, dependable, major player in the industry. This is
Speaker 5: not somebody that would nor merely choose to buy from
Speaker 5: Sunshine one to three.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
Speaker 5: It's they are trusting you to have properly vetted and
Speaker 5: stand by this third party that you are now allowing
Speaker 5: allowing on the site. So they should do their due
Speaker 5: diligence and if something goes wrong, and it's a question
Speaker 5: to ask, and I would certainly do that so you
Speaker 5: know what you can expect if something does go wrong.
Speaker 5: So I think in some cases they do, in in
Speaker 5: other cases they don't.
Speaker 4: But I would.
Speaker 5: Certainly if it happened to me, I would certainly insist
Speaker 5: that they deal with their supplier and not make it
Speaker 5: your problem, not make it properly because they should have
Speaker 5: vetted them properly.
Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3: You are putting your trust in the brig, the big brand,
Speaker 3: and shopping on the big brand for a reason because
Speaker 3: it is a trusted brand. So they need to do there,
Speaker 3: but to ensure the integrity of what that brand represents
Speaker 3: in terms of how they're vetting who goes on that platform.
Speaker 2: So I mean the bottom line for listeners.
Speaker 3: Here, Wendy is obviously again playing cost attention to the
Speaker 3: small prints. When you are buying a product, if there
Speaker 3: is a line there saying that this is a third
Speaker 3: party vendor seller Xyz for example, an even I heard
Speaker 3: of that person.
Speaker 4: I mean, I've done it.
Speaker 5: Many times, but be mindful that both take a lot
Speaker 5: and Macro for example, they will use the words.
Speaker 4: Sold by and it'll be a company. Don't know.
Speaker 5: I should just say I did ask Macro for comment
Speaker 5: and they said they opened their website to third party
Speaker 5: sellers in twenty eighteen. Items sold by third party sellers
Speaker 5: are indicated on the product display page as I've seen
Speaker 5: through a message saying sold by.
Speaker 4: And the business name.
Speaker 5: All suppliers, including marketplace sellers, are contracted to comply with
Speaker 5: relevant legal obligations, including those prescribed in intellectual property law
Speaker 5: and the Consumer Protection Act. I was told by Macro
Speaker 5: if the authenticity of products, and this was my quer
Speaker 5: was specifically around the knockoffs. If the authenticity of products
Speaker 5: is in question, including through proact of weekly scanning of
Speaker 5: the marketplace product catalog, then those products are removed from sale.
Speaker 5: I also had a case just quickly say talking about
Speaker 5: just thinking about it when they said they require the
Speaker 5: vendors to comply with the CPA. I had started corresponding.
Speaker 5: Someone bought a kettle and it it became defective within
Speaker 5: six months.
Speaker 4: And I saw the.
Speaker 5: Correspondence that the supply had sent to Macro, and it
Speaker 5: included it said this.
Speaker 4: You've had the product.
Speaker 5: For four months or five months, and that's it's it's
Speaker 5: very long and so that basically there's no recourse. And
Speaker 5: I was like, and the and the and the Macro
Speaker 5: person didn't correct that in relaying the information to the customer.
Speaker 5: So that kind of thing needs to now be you know,
Speaker 5: stamped out. There needs to be a lot of oversight
Speaker 5: because they're inviting these people into into our trusted app
Speaker 5: and we need to know that they're doing their due diligence.
Speaker 3: Okay, now, Wendy, just an interesting sort of did you
Speaker 3: know addition here before we move into the issue of
Speaker 3: returns on items that we're on sale. All online vendors
Speaker 3: actually have legal obligations under the Electronic Communications and Transactions
Speaker 3: Act in terms of the kind of information that they're
Speaker 3: obliged to display. Won't you just walk us through what
Speaker 3: you should be looking for.
Speaker 5: Sure there are a lot, but I think just to
Speaker 5: simplify this and the onbut actually made mention of this
Speaker 5: in his report as well, because so many people, even
Speaker 5: experienced shoppers, don't know this. So if this doesn't happen,
Speaker 5: then's a red flag and I would say move on.
Speaker 4: So number one, they.
Speaker 5: Need to clearly display the refund and returns policies and
Speaker 5: plan easy to understand the language and to and often
Speaker 5: the tes as we'll get you now are not legally compliant,
Speaker 5: but people don't know they're not legally complied, right, So
Speaker 5: I think arm yourself with the correct knowledge by listening
Speaker 5: to shows like this would be a good start. And
Speaker 5: then they must provide a full, physical, valid address. When
Speaker 5: I say valid, I've seen many that just put the
Speaker 5: street name suburb and you look at it quickly and
Speaker 5: you think, oh, there's a street address, But if you
Speaker 5: try to find them, you couldn't because there's no number
Speaker 5: all right, Or if you try to if you wanted
Speaker 5: to check them out on Google Maps, which is a
Speaker 5: very good idea, you can't because you don't you just
Speaker 5: have a street and an entire street to go on.
Speaker 5: So it must be a full address. They can't just
Speaker 5: have an email address or just a city, which so
Speaker 5: often is the case. So you know, in many cases
Speaker 5: we discussed this on the show. You go into the
Speaker 5: website and they have an embedded email form contact that,
Speaker 5: so there could be anyone anywhere. There is no contact ability, traceability.
Speaker 5: So if you see that, I don't care how much
Speaker 5: you want the product and how cheap it is, you.
Speaker 2: All what a platform you're shopping.
Speaker 3: If the third party vendor doesn't provide that kind of
Speaker 3: information on their site, walk away from the deal because
Speaker 3: it's not the deal you think it is. Okay, very
Speaker 3: short break, and then we're back onto another aspect of
Speaker 3: online shopping here, which is to do with your right
Speaker 3: of return and particular questions around returning items that were
Speaker 3: on sale or discounted on promotion. Me'lane will get to
Speaker 3: your question. It's directly relevant to this part of the conversation.
Speaker 3: After this short break.
Speaker 1: Consumer Talk with Wendy Norler, you can join.
Speaker 3: The conversation right Besides the issue of third party vendor problems, Wendy,
Speaker 3: the Onbitz report flagged a second issue which comes up
Speaker 3: quite often with regard to online sales, and that is
Speaker 3: companies refusing to accept returns and refunds and issue refunds
Speaker 3: on items which were sold on sale or promotion of
Speaker 3: some kind. We encountered this poor old demand and her
Speaker 3: hose pipe had the same issue because her hose pipe
Speaker 3: had been bought on promotion, and at the time, that
Speaker 3: was the first stumbling block she encountered, being told there's
Speaker 3: no return on sale items, all those on promo. And
Speaker 3: I know you've got another recent example to share with us,
Speaker 3: but before we do that, here's one justin on the
Speaker 3: WhatsApp line m'lane writing in to say, I recently placed
Speaker 3: an online order with Boody. I love their underwear, so
Speaker 3: I decided i've their clothing range, and on Earth Day,
Speaker 3: they sent out an email stating that for one day only,
Speaker 3: everything on the website would be twenty five percent less.
Speaker 2: I jumped at it.
Speaker 3: I ordered two tracksuits from their newly launched range along
Speaker 3: with an underwear item, but when they arrived, the tracksuits
Speaker 3: were not a good fit, so I logged a return.
Speaker 3: I was then informed the items were not eligible for
Speaker 3: return due to their being sale items. I was baffled
Speaker 3: by this, as my opinion when placing my order was
Speaker 3: that I would be allowed to return them if they
Speaker 3: weren't suitable because it was an online purchase. My question
Speaker 3: is twofold. Firstly, does using a promo code make an
Speaker 3: item a sale item? It doesn't really seem to fit
Speaker 3: the traditional understanding of a sale item, especially when ordering
Speaker 3: a newly launched product. And Secondly, am I entitled to
Speaker 3: a full refund based on the cooling off period regardless
Speaker 3: of whether or not the item was on sale? I
Speaker 3: would love to hear Wendy's thoughts. Wendy has lots of
Speaker 3: thoughts on this one, Milaenium sideline. You raised it, Wendy
Speaker 3: before we answer, maybe also, do you want to share
Speaker 3: Kim's example, which was a similar sail the.
Speaker 5: Case indeed, and just to say that this wasn't flagged
Speaker 5: by the boot. This was separate issue that I am
Speaker 5: seeing and and I'm so gratified that we got that call.
Speaker 4: It's almost as if we put her up to it,
Speaker 4: which we didn't. So Kim off Cape Town she.
Speaker 5: Was about to buy something from Cape Town based retailer
Speaker 5: Daka Parel when she spotted the no return of sale
Speaker 5: item policy, and the reason she looked for it was
Speaker 5: because the site had automatically applied a promotional discount okay
Speaker 5: on her on what she'd put in her basket. And
Speaker 5: so she queried that with the company and she copied me,
Speaker 5: which I was grateful for. So I and she wrote,
Speaker 5: I'm about to place an online order.
Speaker 4: Just what I've said.
Speaker 5: The TZNC state that I can't return anything that was
Speaker 5: part of a sale or promotion. As I told Kim
Speaker 5: and the retailer in the same email, that clause is
Speaker 5: definitely not okay.
Speaker 4: The law is clear on that if.
Speaker 5: You buy something online, the Electronic Communications and Transaction Acts applies,
Speaker 5: and that gives you seven days in which to return it,
Speaker 5: whatever the reason. So you don't even have to give
Speaker 5: them a reason. You just get to change your mind
Speaker 5: and send it back for at your cost, unless the
Speaker 5: company chooses to absorb that, which very few do. So
Speaker 5: you've got a pay to send it back, which is,
Speaker 5: if it's something heavy, you might want to consider that
Speaker 5: because it might be a barrier to you to your
Speaker 5: right to return. And that's because you haven't had the
Speaker 5: opportunity to engage with the product as you would in
Speaker 5: the store, to try it on, specifically in these to feel.
Speaker 3: The fabric, to see if the shade of red is
Speaker 3: actually as it appears on the screen, that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: Okay, exactly, So there is no exclusion on sale items
Speaker 5: because if they were think about it, Papa, all ever
Speaker 5: retail online retailer would have to do to rob their
Speaker 5: customers of the right to return within that cooling off
Speaker 5: period and get their money back with me to say
Speaker 5: that everything is on item, either through a line saying
Speaker 5: you know it was seven ninety nine now five ninety nine,
Speaker 5: or to automatically a pro promotional discount, which you think
Speaker 5: is so lovely, or a first time by a discount,
Speaker 5: which is very common, common and so doing saying exactly
Speaker 5: what happened to our listener? Oh sorry, they don't fit well,
Speaker 5: you got them on promotion, so that is illegal. And
Speaker 5: I pointed that out to Duck Apparel, as I said,
Speaker 5: and gratifyingly, they got back to me very quickly to
Speaker 5: say we've revised our terms and conditions. They now read
Speaker 5: refunds and exchanges. Sorry, they used to read refund and
Speaker 5: exchange are not available for sale items brought on promotional
Speaker 5: Black Friday, And now they say customers are entitled to
Speaker 5: return any item, including sale and promotional items within seven
Speaker 5: receiving their order, providing it in a resealable condition, which
Speaker 5: is absolutely fine because they mustn't lose the sale. They
Speaker 5: must be in a position to resell it onto someone else.
Speaker 5: So that was very gratifying. But I know, and we've
Speaker 5: just our listeners just underlined it that it is very
Speaker 5: common this and you must call it out when you
Speaker 5: see it.
Speaker 4: If they won't change it, report it to us.
Speaker 5: Let's let's get this stopped, because that is a fundamental
Speaker 5: right of buying online because you can't try it on,
Speaker 5: you can't touch your experience the product at all. Excuse me,
Speaker 5: And if they're going to I was.
Speaker 3: Just going to jump in and say, you have a
Speaker 3: cough in the background there, Wendy. Well, I'll just just
Speaker 3: flagged this. So this is for online purchases only. The
Speaker 3: seven day cooling off period does not apply to items
Speaker 3: you have bought in a physical store, because there you
Speaker 3: did have the opportunity to try on the pants, to
Speaker 3: check that you like the fabric, to see the color,
Speaker 3: et cetera. This right only applies in terms of electronic
Speaker 3: purchases made on a website, So if you bought an
Speaker 3: item online for any reason, if you don't want to
Speaker 3: keep it, you are allowed to return it within seven
Speaker 3: days as long as you log that return within seven days.
Speaker 3: And again you might be asked to pay towards the
Speaker 3: cost of returning the item, but you do have the
Speaker 3: right to return it for a full refund. Where people
Speaker 3: get confused is there is an overlapping right here, because
Speaker 3: this overlaps with the issue of the right of return
Speaker 3: if an item is defective defective, and that one applies
Speaker 3: to anything no matter where you bought it online or
Speaker 3: in a store. If the thing you bought had a
Speaker 3: problem and was not functioning in the way it was
Speaker 3: meant to, there too you have a right of return.
Speaker 3: But it's a different story, right yes.
Speaker 5: So what is happening and these cases, obviously going to
Speaker 5: the onbost office, is there something is arrived damage or
Speaker 5: developed a defect within six months and when the consumer
Speaker 5: complains to the online retailer, they say, well, you're out
Speaker 5: of your cooling or fery. That was only a week
Speaker 5: or sometimes many of them make it actually thirty days,
Speaker 5: whereas only legally enough to make it a week. But
Speaker 5: of course, as the on but pointed out, and there
Speaker 5: was a case study in the report, the consumer protection
Speaker 5: legislation that gives the consumer the most protection would override it.
Speaker 5: So while the Electronic and Communications Transactions of the Communications
Speaker 5: Act only talks about the cooling off period for changing
Speaker 5: your mind, you know the goods that are perfectly non defective,
Speaker 5: but you just don't want them anymore, it doesn't go
Speaker 5: on to talk about six months. You know, you have
Speaker 5: a right to return within six months if it's effective,
Speaker 5: But the CPA definitely applies here. So as you say,
Speaker 5: wherever you bought the product, whether it was online or
Speaker 5: in a physical store, if something goes wrong with it
Speaker 5: within six months, you have the right to return it,
Speaker 5: the difference being if it's online at your cost, and
Speaker 5: you then also have the right to choose the remedy refund, replacement,
Speaker 5: or repair. And thank you for flagging that the cooling
Speaker 5: off period only applies to online sales, because I get
Speaker 5: so many emails from people who to me, they bought something,
Speaker 5: the genes didn't fit, the sun, didn't like the shoes
Speaker 5: or whatever. They took them back and they were told sorry,
Speaker 5: we don't or they're on sale. And if you buy
Speaker 5: something in a physical store and there's nothing wrong with that,
Speaker 5: they do ever right to say, well, you brought it
Speaker 5: on sale, we're not taking it back. They don't know
Speaker 5: if you take back any purchase on sale or otherwise,
Speaker 5: that's not defective if you brought it in a physical store.
Speaker 5: And then I get people saying to you, but please
Speaker 5: tell them they won't honor my cooling off period. Cooling
Speaker 5: off periods don't apply across the board. They apply when
Speaker 5: you buy something online.
Speaker 3: That's it, and only online. Thank you well. Melanster sent
Speaker 3: an update saying initially they were adamant that I was
Speaker 3: not entitled.
Speaker 2: To a refund. This is the booty story, she said.
Speaker 3: After lots of back and forth and me standing firm,
Speaker 3: I was eventually refunded. The sad thing is that left
Speaker 3: me quite annoyed, wasted a lot of my time, and
Speaker 3: hence I won't support them again. Well, I mean that's
Speaker 3: the impact the brand, absolutely, Milan, And who would why
Speaker 3: would you buy again from somebody you've had that experience with?
Speaker 3: And well done you for knowing your rights and standing
Speaker 3: your ground on this one. Yeah okay, Well, so Amy's
Speaker 3: writing and saying her text House Online always refused returns
Speaker 3: of anything brought on their sale that's from Amy in
Speaker 3: front of well. Amy, you need to go back to
Speaker 3: them and point out to them that's illegal.
Speaker 5: Do you want to respond, Wendy, Yes, that is very
Speaker 5: distressing for me to hear, because during COVID people were
Speaker 5: started starting to embrace online a huge way.
Speaker 4: Her text had a sale.
Speaker 5: Online, their first online sale, and somebody bought a rug
Speaker 5: I remember distinctly, and the color didn't look the same
Speaker 5: in real life as it did on the website listing.
Speaker 5: And they've told her you brought it on our sale,
Speaker 5: so there's no right of return. And I took them
Speaker 5: up on that and they told me they were going
Speaker 5: to mean their policy.
Speaker 4: Oh sorry, we didn't know. Oh okay, I need to
Speaker 4: tackle them.
Speaker 2: Amy.
Speaker 3: Please, if you would like, if you've got a recent
Speaker 3: case study, send us an email because that's unconscionable and
Speaker 3: it's been put you know, once you can say maybe
Speaker 3: they didn't know, but they do know, and Wendy knows
Speaker 3: that they know because she pointed it out to them
Speaker 3: several years ago. So if they're still doing a pro
Speaker 3: putting that into practice, it's very very serious. Indeed, please
Speaker 3: do send us a follow up email to Pippah at
Speaker 3: CapeTalk dot co dot sed We have to leave it there, Wendy,
Speaker 3: the time has flown. Thank you as always for being
Speaker 3: with us, and enjoy the rest of your time in
Speaker 3: Joe Boog and we'll chat again soon.
Speaker 4: Thanks prefer Wendy Nyak.
Speaker 3: Just a reminder, if you want to flag a case
Speaker 3: with Wendy, the best thing to do is go onto
Speaker 3: her website Wendynola dot co dot sede and fill out
Speaker 3: the contact form there because it prompts you for all
Speaker 3: of the kind of details that Wendy needs to successfully
Speaker 3: chase your case. Thanks so much, Wendy Noler