1
00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:05,600
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

2
00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:06,040
Speaker 1: oh two.

3
00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:07,480
Speaker 2: Let's walk little.

4
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

5
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,560
Speaker 3: by Abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

6
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,800
Speaker 3: across Africa. Download the as Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty

7
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,439
Speaker 3: twenty five. Good evening to you, Welcome to the program.

8
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 3: Eight minutes after six. I'm Stephen Curtis. Nice to have

9
00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 3: you along on The Money Show. I was asked by

10
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 3: someone today, have I noticed that they're sort of fewer

11
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 3: people around. I haven't seen that coming to sant and

12
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,320
Speaker 3: I've actually noticed more traffic. I do come into santin

13
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,640
Speaker 3: kind of in the middle of the afternoon, so a

14
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 3: bit of a strange time and certainly not the usual,

15
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 3: but I do get a sense that things are still

16
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,160
Speaker 3: very busy. I don't think the major centers have even

17
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 3: started sort of, you know, seeing people leave yet. Obviously,

18
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,239
Speaker 3: when the school holiday, school's go on holiday, a lot

19
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 3: of patterns get disrupted, but I think so far things

20
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 3: are pretty much like they were last week. I suspect

21
00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,160
Speaker 3: tomorrow will be quite busy, and Monday been between in

22
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,440
Speaker 3: a weekend and a public holiday. I think Monday is

23
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,440
Speaker 3: going to be a very different day. Actually, I think

24
00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 3: things will calm down quite a lot. We'll be talking

25
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,760
Speaker 3: to the Competition Commission in a little while. They want

26
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 3: to talk about well, we want to talk to them

27
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,040
Speaker 3: about their draft guidelines on minority shareholder protections. We'll also

28
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 3: look at the latest quarterly employment numbers and what they

29
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,319
Speaker 3: tell us about our trends, and got some things to

30
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,520
Speaker 3: say about that conversation. Actually, we look at business confidence.

31
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,960
Speaker 3: Business confidence numbers seem to be much higher than they've

32
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,679
Speaker 3: been in some time. Richard Downing's the economist who compiles

33
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 3: that Business Confidence indicator for SAKI in the South African

34
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,840
Speaker 3: Chamber of Commerce and Industry and News over the last

35
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,800
Speaker 3: little while. So cocoa prices are down dramatically by forty

36
00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 3: five percent. Should make your chocolate cheaper. The other thing

37
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 3: that's so interesting is that dairy prices have rarely started

38
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 3: to fall through the floor.

39
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 4: Now.

40
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 3: New Zealand is the biggest producer of dairy. They produce

41
00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 3: more milk than anyone else. I don't know if something

42
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 3: happened there. Maybe they I don't know, got their grass

43
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 3: growing or something. I have no idea what produces more milk.

44
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 3: But it's fascinating because it will have a big impact

45
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,360
Speaker 3: on some of the products that you do consume. And

46
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,839
Speaker 3: not so much milk, I think, because I think most

47
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,359
Speaker 3: of our milk comes from here. But butter, a lot

48
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,800
Speaker 3: of butter, a lot of imported butter in South Africa,

49
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,799
Speaker 3: a lot of imported cheese too, I think that might

50
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,519
Speaker 3: well have a bit of an impact on those prices.

51
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,480
Speaker 3: Good to have you long as ten minutes after six

52
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 3: The Luney Show.

53
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,960
Speaker 5: With Stephen Kruti's Live on ninety two point seven and

54
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,239
Speaker 5: one O six FM streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

55
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 6: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

56
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 3: I'd like to ask you a personal question, and I

57
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 3: hope you don't mind, but I'd like to ask how

58
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 3: many jobs do you have? Do you have one more

59
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 3: than one? Two, three, four? If you look at streams

60
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 3: of income And I don't mean you know, if you've

61
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 3: got investment income or property income or something like that.

62
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,639
Speaker 3: I'm talking about actual work that you do. How many

63
00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,520
Speaker 3: jobs would you say that you have? And I mean,

64
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,320
Speaker 3: you see it, economies around the world move to the

65
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 3: gig economy and in some ways there's so many opportunities

66
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,960
Speaker 3: you can do so much more. But I think it

67
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 3: also means that people are working harder. And it's quind

68
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,519
Speaker 3: of hard to say, because you know, thirty years ago

69
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 3: you weren't working with cell phones and email on your

70
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 3: phone and what's happened all the rest, And before that,

71
00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 3: you weren't working with a computer at home at all,

72
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 3: So anything you did that you took home had to

73
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 3: be paper based and someone would have to call you

74
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 3: on a landline and hope you were there and hope

75
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 3: that the teenager took the right message and all the rest.

76
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 3: But how many jobs do you do? And I'll tell

77
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 3: you why I ask because the latest courtly employment statistics

78
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 3: look at market trends and they can see that our

79
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 3: economy actually lost formal full time jobs but created formal

80
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 3: part time jobs. And I know, for example, in China,

81
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 3: the number of people who are in a kind of

82
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 3: gig economy has grown dramatically. In Europe people talk about

83
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 3: it all the time, and that's happening here too. Now

84
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 3: there might be opportunity for you you can sort of

85
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 3: work every hour of the day if you want, But

86
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 3: normally you work every hour of the day because you

87
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,320
Speaker 3: have to. And that's a different story, So please if

88
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 3: you don't mind on seven two, seven oh two, one,

89
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 3: seven oh two, How many jobs do you do?

90
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 5: The Money Show on seven Monday to Friday, six to apm.

91
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,600
Speaker 3: Well, the Competition Commission saying it's going ahead with plans

92
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 3: that it believes will lead to more protections for minority

93
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,479
Speaker 3: shareholders of companies, but it also means that changes to

94
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,640
Speaker 3: minority shareholdings might mean that firms have to file notice

95
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,599
Speaker 3: they are participating in a merger when those minority shareholders

96
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 3: sell their stakes. The Commission says this is also about

97
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,720
Speaker 3: cases where someone can both be a minority shareholder and

98
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,480
Speaker 3: still have some form of a veto. If you think

99
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,280
Speaker 3: it sounds technical, that's because it is. Some pierwa. Gomd

100
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 3: is a senior legal counsel at the Competition Commission and

101
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 3: a co author of the draft guideline Some peerwa. Good evening,

102
00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 3: I do appreciate the time. Thank you. What are you

103
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 3: planning to change in your guidelines?

104
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,920
Speaker 7: Good evening, Stephen, Good evening to your listeners as well.

105
00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,039
Speaker 8: So the guidelines really don't necessarily bring about any changes

106
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 8: necessarily specifically to the framework in relation to merger control

107
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 8: and control and merger assessments more generally, the fundamental purpose

108
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 8: of the guideline really is to try and indicate a

109
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,479
Speaker 8: policy position that the Commission is really taking, which is

110
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,800
Speaker 8: basically just confirming positions that have already been confirmed by

111
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,760
Speaker 8: the Competition Appeal Court as well as the Competition Tribunal

112
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,720
Speaker 8: and similarly are followed in Europe as well. And that's

113
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,240
Speaker 8: just in relation to the understanding of control, but specifically

114
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 8: looking at minority protections and what a role they play

115
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 8: within the broader business community and space as well as

116
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,400
Speaker 8: within merger control more generally.

117
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, why would minority shareholders need more protection? I

118
00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 3: accept what you say about you just following sort of

119
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 3: competition tribunal rulings, But what protections do they need which

120
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,120
Speaker 3: they didn't have before or didn't have before those rulings.

121
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 8: So it's not necessarily about giving them protections. I think

122
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,719
Speaker 8: the guidelines really in the way in which they're framed,

123
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,600
Speaker 8: are framed in such a word that they actually recognize

124
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,279
Speaker 8: the fact that there are these protections that minority shareholders have. So,

125
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 8: for example, if you have a look at Annexture B

126
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 8: of the actual guidelines itself, and I do encourage your

127
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 8: listeners to have a look at particularly an extra an

128
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 8: an extra B. There's a recognition by the guidelines that

129
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 8: in transactions and emerger transactions, some shareholders may not necessarily

130
00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 8: acquire controlling mistakes in a particular entity, but what they

131
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 8: may very well acquire as a result of a transaction

132
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 8: might be, for example, some form of minority protection that

133
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 8: might be there, for example, a particular veto right, or

134
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,560
Speaker 8: for instance, the ability to approve or not approve the

135
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 8: strategy of affirm What these specific guidelines attempt to do,

136
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,320
Speaker 8: and specifically with reference to annexture being what they're simply

137
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,599
Speaker 8: trying to do is to recognize the fact that these

138
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 8: are rights that minority shareholders do have and sometimes do

139
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 8: gain as a result of transactions. And so with these

140
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 8: specific rights they have quite a telling say in relation

141
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 8: to in relation to the direction the strategic direction of firms.

142
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 3: Would it be another way to put it if we

143
00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,000
Speaker 3: put it like this and let me just sort of

144
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 3: suggest it in this way that what you're trying to

145
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,360
Speaker 3: do is get to the heart of who rarely controls

146
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,400
Speaker 3: what a firm does. So if it's a someone has

147
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 3: a fifty one percent shareholding, you presume that that person

148
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 3: or that entity has control, but in some cases because

149
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 3: of the way things work, maybe because of the way

150
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,640
Speaker 3: it shares, because of the way that shareholders have sort

151
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 3: of you know, been sold or diluted or whatever, or

152
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 3: cross agreements, all sorts of things, someone might actually have

153
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 3: a forty nine per shareholding, but just because of the context,

154
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 3: be able to stop a company from doing something, even

155
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,920
Speaker 3: though it's not fifty one percent. So am I right

156
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 3: to say this is about trying to get to the

157
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,240
Speaker 3: heart of the question of who actually has control of

158
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 3: what a firm does?

159
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 8: That's perfectly correct, even I think you've characteristic quite well,

160
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,000
Speaker 8: and even when you have a look, for instance, at

161
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 8: section twelve two G of yet, which already in and

162
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,520
Speaker 8: of itself is not the Competition Act, which already in

163
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 8: of itself recognizes the fact that controlled in a firm

164
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 8: can be.

165
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 7: Acquired in a variety of ways.

166
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 8: And so exactly as you've characterized that Stephen, firms are

167
00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 8: able and companies are able to acquire a level of

168
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 8: control in a company without necessarily crossing the fifty one

169
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 8: percent or fifty plus one a percent threshold, which ordinarily

170
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 8: one would understand as being the acquisition of control of

171
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 8: a particular company.

172
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 3: What kind of cases led to the rulings that you

173
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 3: are now implementing in terms of guidelines, So what was

174
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 3: happening that made people realize there was a problem.

175
00:08:59,000 --> 00:08:59,800
Speaker 9: So it's not so.

176
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,240
Speaker 8: Much the fact that there were things happening, but there

177
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 8: were cases, for example, where the Competition Appeal Court and

178
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,319
Speaker 8: I'm looking here at cases such as Caxton a versus Multitude,

179
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,079
Speaker 8: which was a case back in twentent than and sixteen already.

180
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,280
Speaker 8: So there were cases already long before which recognized the

181
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 8: fact that the acquisition of control in companies can take

182
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 8: place in a variety of ways, and one that does

183
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 8: not necessarily need to cross that fifty plus one percent threshold.

184
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,840
Speaker 8: And so the rassiale really behind publishing these guidelines at

185
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,559
Speaker 8: this particular point was to simply say that let's look

186
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,439
Speaker 8: back as the Competition Commission and see exactly where exactly

187
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 8: we can sort of put out a policy position, particularly

188
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 8: in relation to merger control that not only brings about

189
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,600
Speaker 8: some level of certainty and some level of understanding to

190
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 8: the market, particularly in relation to this narrow aspect of

191
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 8: merger control and control more generally. So it's not necessarily

192
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,599
Speaker 8: that there were things that have happened or transactions that

193
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 8: have happened more recently. But it was opportunity for us

194
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 8: as a commission to look back and have a look

195
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 8: as we constantly try and do at our merger regulation regime,

196
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,240
Speaker 8: to be able to then where we can indicate policy

197
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,080
Speaker 8: positions that can give some level of certains. And I

198
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,440
Speaker 8: think by publishing these guidelines as this particular point, as

199
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,079
Speaker 8: they are out for public comment, what we're also aim

200
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 8: to do with them is to receive comments from business

201
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 8: and from the general public in relations and only what

202
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 8: they think, but where they think these guidelines can be enhanced,

203
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,680
Speaker 8: and where perhaps they may think that we've got it

204
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:30,480
Speaker 8: completely wrong.

205
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,640
Speaker 7: But we will certainly take all of.

206
00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 8: These comments on board to help us not only assess

207
00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,040
Speaker 8: exactly what's happening on the ground, but equally assess exactly

208
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,800
Speaker 8: what our policy position is more generally going forward.

209
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 3: Here, Okay, I mean, I accept your principle. I'm not

210
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:46,800
Speaker 3: arguing with you on that. I just want to ask

211
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 3: this one last question. As a consequence of this change,

212
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,800
Speaker 3: will more companies have to file notices with you because

213
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,319
Speaker 3: of changes to their shareholdings.

214
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,280
Speaker 7: That may very well be the result of defect Stephen.

215
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 8: But at the end of the day, I think the

216
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 8: important thing to take out of this is that what

217
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 8: the Commission is really fundamentally trying to do is to

218
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 8: ensure that if there is an acquisition of a minority

219
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 8: protection that ordinarily might not necessitate filing in to the

220
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 8: competition authorities, the as a consequence of these guidelines, firms

221
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 8: as well as dealmakers will be able to be in

222
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 8: a position to know that in fact, when for example,

223
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,840
Speaker 8: a partitionar particular minority protection is acquired as a result

224
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 8: of of of any acquisition that happens, the Competition Commission

225
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 8: will expect and would would need to have a look

226
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,440
Speaker 8: at that specific acquisition of that specific right, so that

227
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,800
Speaker 8: we are able to then just have some level of

228
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 8: oversight specifically in relation to what then is happening in

229
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,760
Speaker 8: a relation to that specific industry, that company, et cetera,

230
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 8: et cetera. So it is a level of oversight that

231
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 8: we now have and that is now literally being being introduced.

232
00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 8: But like I said, it's a confirmation for that's already there.

233
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,960
Speaker 8: So I've been necessarily new. We've just sort of put

234
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,240
Speaker 8: it out there to say, hey, this is what we're doing.

235
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:08,280
Speaker 7: This while we're looking at.

236
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,040
Speaker 3: Things Simperia Goomde. Thank you so much, really appreciate it.

237
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 3: Senior legal Counselor of the Competition Commissioned co author of

238
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,200
Speaker 3: the draft guidelines, Stephen.

239
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,679
Speaker 2: Is gone X at at Stephen.

240
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 3: Twenty minutes after six don't forget my question for you

241
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,360
Speaker 3: this evening. How many jobs do you actually have? Because

242
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 3: their numbers from stats to say, showing our economy creator

243
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,559
Speaker 3: twenty nine thousand non farming formal jobs between the second

244
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,000
Speaker 3: quarter of the year and the third quarter. But while

245
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 3: we created fifty thousand new part time jobs, twenty one

246
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 3: thousand full time jobs disappeared. Doctor Miriam Altman's director at

247
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,160
Speaker 3: Altman Advisory, Miriam, good evening, Good to talk to you

248
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,080
Speaker 3: on the Money Show. So many, so many people I

249
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,600
Speaker 3: speak to now and all sorts of different parts of

250
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,240
Speaker 3: the economy tell me they have more than one job.

251
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,880
Speaker 3: What's driving this big change? And it's an international change

252
00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 3: really to a kind of gig economy.

253
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 10: Well it's not a gig economy. That's how most people

254
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 10: in the world make a plan, is that they have

255
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 10: multiple things that they do. It's just that maybe historically

256
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 10: in South Africa that wasn't how people worked but it's

257
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 10: not just a gig economy. It's how like I said,

258
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,840
Speaker 10: most people in the world make a plan.

259
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 3: Always seeing a gathering pace here. I mean, I know

260
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 3: many people who will tell me that their parents had

261
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 3: one job, now they have three jobs.

262
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 10: Well yeah, and like I said, it's not necessarily a

263
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 10: bad thing. Maybe that people. That's why sometimes, like in

264
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 10: the National Plann Commission, we would talk about a livelihood

265
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,679
Speaker 10: rather than just a job per se. What you need

266
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,200
Speaker 10: is you need enough opportunities that you can assemble a

267
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 10: livelihood with you and you may do multiple things. It

268
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,239
Speaker 10: used to be that, you know, you had fewer people working,

269
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 10: you had a smaller economy. I guess people had single jobs.

270
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,840
Speaker 10: But it's not how things work in the world generally.

271
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 10: It's just that it maybe it feels new in South Africa.

272
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 3: Has something changed in South Africa then that that has

273
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 3: led to this only happening now if we're a bit

274
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 3: behind the rest of the world.

275
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 10: Well, you know, remember this was a police state, you

276
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,320
Speaker 10: know how many years ago and the economies opened up

277
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,000
Speaker 10: and there's more variety and there's more people who are

278
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 10: in it and doing different things. There's just more variety

279
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:19,880
Speaker 10: in the economy.

280
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 11: I guess I think my access.

281
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I think many people, I mean often a

282
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 3: bit of variety during the day is not a terrible thing.

283
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,520
Speaker 3: That don't mind doing a variety of jobs. But I

284
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 3: think there's also a sense that it was better in

285
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 3: the past because you could and this is a strange

286
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 3: thing to say, but there was a feeling that you

287
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 3: could live on one job, you could live in a

288
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,680
Speaker 3: situation in the middle class where you could make sure

289
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,400
Speaker 3: your children are educated on one job. I don't think

290
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 3: that's how people feel now.

291
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, let's just remember also, you know, just to put

292
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,520
Speaker 10: it in perspective, in South Africa, it wasn't better before

293
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 10: because a very small group of people got these good

294
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 10: jobs and then and then there was a majority of

295
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 10: the population as we will know, that was excluded. So

296
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 10: if you're white, you may be feeling that things aren't

297
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 10: going the way that it was. Having said that, a

298
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 10: lot of the research when I was at AHSRC some

299
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,480
Speaker 10: years ago, I did a lot of work on the

300
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 10: services economy. Now, most jobs globally, not just in South Africa,

301
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,160
Speaker 10: but globally. Even in countries that do well in manufacturing

302
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 10: like China and Korea, the vast majority of new jobs

303
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,840
Speaker 10: actually are in services. Now. The thing that's happening globally

304
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 10: is that most people, including the United States and all

305
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 10: these countries, are not able to make ends meet because

306
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 10: services jobs tend to pay less. Now, I'm not talking

307
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 10: about the high tech kind of person, but the vast

308
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 10: majority of people in the world. What they're doing is

309
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 10: they're cleaning and doing your nails and washing your hair,

310
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 10: and security and all sorts of stuff like that. So

311
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 10: now there's a lot more thinking in both developed and

312
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 10: developing countries like South Africa about the need for social

313
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,880
Speaker 10: security and social protection.

314
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,200
Speaker 3: I mean, the thing about it a part time job

315
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 3: is that, I mean, I think most people wouldn't be

316
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 3: doing more than one job on this they felt they

317
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 3: had to so to assemble that livelihood, as you call it.

318
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 3: They're doing it because they absolutely have to, and they're

319
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 3: possibly working. I mean, many of people are working very

320
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,320
Speaker 3: long hours to do that.

321
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 10: Oh sure. So I'm not saying that it's fine and easy.

322
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,119
Speaker 10: The issue is is that the system needs to be supportive.

323
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 10: So if you've got strong social networks, and you've got

324
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 10: fallback systems and strong communities and the cost of living

325
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,200
Speaker 10: as low, then you can make a plan. If you're

326
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 10: an economy like in South Africa, where most people find

327
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 10: it expensive, the security networks don't work that well, you know,

328
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 10: et cetera, then it's it's quite hard and it holds

329
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,280
Speaker 10: the country back. Actually, so again this is why even

330
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 10: countries like India, Brazil, South Africa. You know, historically these

331
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,560
Speaker 10: kinds of countries didn't think about systems as social protection

332
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 10: in this way, but increasingly around the world, countries find

333
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 10: that they need to do that. So like you remember

334
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 10: when the United States, you know, when the federal government

335
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 10: show down, the first time it shut down, you saw

336
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 10: federal workers like within a week or two weeks were

337
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 10: on a bread it were in breadlines.

338
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,760
Speaker 3: I not yeah, yeah, yeah, very well.

339
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 10: Yes, So when I was doing I was doing a

340
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,639
Speaker 10: lot of work. We introduced the idea when I was

341
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 10: at HSRC many years ago, like twenty years ago, about

342
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 10: thinking about working the concept of working poverty. I got

343
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 10: that idea from an economist, James Gallbraith in the United States.

344
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 10: If he was showing that people who had worked their

345
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,919
Speaker 10: entire life. In the United States, it was very common

346
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,440
Speaker 10: for working class people. You work your entire life, you

347
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 10: think you should be able to retire, but people were

348
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,440
Speaker 10: actually below the bread line, like in other words, low

349
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 10: below the poverty line.

350
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 3: The fact that technology is changing so quickly. Everyone's depending

351
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 3: on what you look at. So what confronts you online

352
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 3: claims to be making money that way, that's that technological change.

353
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 3: I'm sure that's playing effected.

354
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 10: Oh sure, but it always does. There's new jobs that emerge.

355
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 10: What you know, like the character and the challenge that

356
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,600
Speaker 10: people say is if you don't have strong community networks

357
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 10: and other forms of social protection, then you do rely

358
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 10: on your entitlements at work. In other words, you're pinching

359
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,359
Speaker 10: your medical aid and so on. So there's fewer people

360
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,119
Speaker 10: that have access to that. So then what needs to

361
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 10: happen is you need to have social systems or government

362
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 10: systems that ensure that people have these public services like

363
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,600
Speaker 10: quality education, quality health, that the cost of living is

364
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 10: kept low. You know, that is incumbent on the state

365
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 10: to be stepping in and making sure that people can

366
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 10: make a plan and live a reasonably decent life, that

367
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,879
Speaker 10: a normal person can do that and in South Africa

368
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 10: that's just not the case.

369
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, doctor Mariam Meltman, thank you, Director at Oulpman Advisory.

370
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,640
Speaker 3: My question how many jobs do you have? Twenty seven

371
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,200
Speaker 3: off to six the money show the market set three

372
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,439
Speaker 3: Red Lunghayes's founder herein Yet Capital Advisors bit for good evening.

373
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,000
Speaker 3: The ran going, I mean at one point below sixteen ninety,

374
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 3: so stronger than sixteen ninety to the obviously the US

375
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 3: Federal Reserve had a hand in that, but still the

376
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 3: round going very nicely.

377
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, agreed, Dieven, thank you for chowing to them. The

378
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 11: RAND isn't going very nice. I think a lot of

379
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 11: it has to do with well, two primary drivers.

380
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 12: One is the gold price golf breaking another technical level

381
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 12: today and I'll make the call now will be about

382
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 12: four hundred dollars fairly soon, I think.

383
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 11: So as the gold price gets stronger, we know that

384
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 11: that is money pouring into minors man, and all that

385
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,119
Speaker 11: money coming into the rappid is going to look bit

386
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 11: for the RAG. So there's the actually then there's our

387
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 11: own local situation that's actually looking better and better.

388
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 7: We have you know, by.

389
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 11: Now we've mostly forgotten about this, but the lights are

390
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,920
Speaker 11: on all this time, right, and we have a seemingly

391
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 11: stable government of national unity and sentiments around the country.

392
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 11: I think the general feeling on the ground is that

393
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 11: things are actually it's not too bad and getting slightly better.

394
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,360
Speaker 11: So I think we have you know, we're an attractive

395
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 11: space in the world right now for foreign investments, and

396
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 11: the world seems relatively bullish. We might look at the

397
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 11: equity markets ralling and field disbelief or whatever the place is,

398
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,640
Speaker 11: but they keep cutting into strates. Tick keeps running up,

399
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 11: and as long as it's risk gone, you know, money

400
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 11: is going to flow to risk care markets. And when

401
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 11: it comes to these emerging markets, we're probably one of

402
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 11: the most attractive ones.

403
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 3: When we saw that in business confidence figures today as well,

404
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,880
Speaker 3: miss the price down nearly four percent. I think they're

405
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 3: closed a little bit stronger than that. They announced that

406
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 3: deal yesterday, their share price starts to tank the we're

407
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 3: ex dividend yesterday as well. I don't quite know how

408
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 3: to understand this reaction. It's a very strong one.

409
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 11: That is a very strong one. So look, generally, what

410
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 11: happened is whatever the purchase price is that the acquiring

411
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 11: company is paying, the share price loses that value and

412
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 11: the company being acquired, you know, that company share increases

413
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 11: in value and then two to balance each other ound

414
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 11: at the end, right so mister Price buy one hundred

415
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,439
Speaker 11: percent of business, I doesn't say about eight point eight billion,

416
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 11: So there's quite a bit of sort of value that

417
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 11: has to come off the balance sheets to buy the

418
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 11: other company that then returns to the balance sheet. So

419
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 11: it's kind of like a net zero type situation. And

420
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 11: I think you know, if you look at the month,

421
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 11: the company's valuations drops are roughly seven or eight billion

422
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 11: over the last two days, right, so we're kind of

423
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,199
Speaker 11: roughly in line, although you know there's a lot of

424
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 11: concern I see three six one Asset Management even wrote

425
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 11: a letter to mister Price to say, you know, guys,

426
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 11: South African businesses have eight terrible truck record for buying

427
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 11: international companies and thinking we're going to make it and

428
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 11: just never getting it right. And we're doing it again.

429
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 11: And if you look at the financials of this NKAD business,

430
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 11: you know they've been losing money for the last five

431
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 11: years and suddenly there's a massive turnaround, which looks like

432
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 11: it's a shareholder loan being converted into equities for the

433
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 11: most part, and then suddenly you buy one hundred percent

434
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 11: of it? Are we you know, it's a category to transactions,

435
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 11: so shareholders can't stop it. Management gets to make the decision,

436
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 11: but they're calling for consultation and they're calling for sort

437
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 11: of justification.

438
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 7: What's the plan.

439
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 11: How do you think this is going to be a

440
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 11: justifiable sertain The market really not liking the deal, but

441
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 11: you know, some people, I suppose I'm more or less

442
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 11: a bullet. Some people are positive on it. But the

443
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 11: market in general, and judging by the share brus there

444
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 11: are also contributing factors. Xd is definitely a factor. Big

445
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 11: asset managers not being happy with it is also a factor.

446
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 11: And then you know that creates a little bit of

447
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 11: an echo chamber and a bit of a panic. Before

448
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 11: you know it, the stocks down fifteen percent.

449
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 3: Betri Riddling has thank you very much, indeed found it

450
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 3: Herenia Capital Advisors just on six thirty.

451
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: The Money Show on seven notes.

452
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 3: Monday till Friday, six to eight pm, seventeen minutes to

453
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 3: seven Just to update you, by the way, the Electricity

454
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 3: Ministry two nights ago, you would have heard a conversation

455
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 3: with some of the people involved and Carol Payton, of course, sir,

456
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 3: the journalist who broke the story. Looking at the fact

457
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 3: that the tenders which government is issued in the Electricity

458
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 3: Ministry has issued that will see foreign companies coming in

459
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 3: to help us sort of rebuild our national grid, that

460
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 3: their BEE partners won't need to have any expertise whatsoever.

461
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: But one of the important questions, and let me get

462
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 3: to the number of this is why you would do

463
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: that and give up the opportunity of building your industrial base.

464
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 3: So if you have the companies who are experienced in

465
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: this field have capacity, this kind of type would help

466
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 3: them build their capacity. You heard the CEO of one

467
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: of those companies saying exactly that the way things are

468
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: going to be now where these companies that the BEE

469
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 3: companies will not have to have any experience, means that

470
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: almost any be compliant company can be a part of it.

471
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 3: You can imagine the opportunity we'll keep trying for the

472
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 3: Electricity Ministry on this. I do think it's important Issue two.

473
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 6: With email him on Stephen at seven O two dot

474
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 6: co dot Z.

475
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: Well after data earlier in the week showing consumers are

476
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 3: feeling more confident today and news that businesses are feeling

477
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 3: more confident too, the SA Chamber of Commerce and Industry

478
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 3: saying their business Confidence index higher in November than it's

479
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: been oh for many, many years. Richard Downing is an

480
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 3: economists who compiles the index for Sacky. Richard, good evening.

481
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: You say in your release the main reason for such

482
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 3: a big increase in confidence was the large number of

483
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 3: foreign tourists in the country in November, presuming the G

484
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: twenty and the B twenty one big factors in that.

485
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 13: Well, I think, you know, one must look on a

486
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 13: broader base for dirisions for this increase in the Confident index,

487
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 13: And I think you've got to do with the global

488
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 13: context we're operating in, and and and I think the

489
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 13: main thing that we can see is that actually the

490
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 13: industry that I to drive the index to higher levels

491
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 13: were actually more market related financial market related except for

492
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 13: one index, and that was the overseas tourists that actually

493
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 13: increased substantially from from the middle of the year ap

494
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 13: to where we are now. So that I think is

495
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 13: why is the biggest reason for the Business Confidence Index

496
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 13: we actually moved up. If you look at, for instance,

497
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 13: the golden platinum price and what that index actually did

498
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 13: and many Jake share prices, and so those movements is

499
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 13: actually the main reason for the index performing at the much.

500
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: Higher level that we last saw in.

501
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 13: Well when when you know, did the increase we saw

502
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 13: it from from about June to where we are in November.

503
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 13: It's about the same that we saw in the when

504
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 13: when the when the COVID restrictions were lifted, and that

505
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 13: was in twenty one. So this is quite unique and

506
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 13: a special sort of circumstances prevailing at the moment.

507
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 3: It certainly seems like it is. There are there higher

508
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 3: levels of confidence confidence in the areas of the economy

509
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: that are more likely to employ people. So the financial sect,

510
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 3: of course it employs people, but it doesn't necessarily create

511
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 3: a lot more jobs. It does in the longer term

512
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: Golden platinum obviously, the investment in that sector is a

513
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: very long term thing. The sectors that will create jobs.

514
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 3: Are we seeing more confidence there.

515
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 14: Now?

516
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 13: That is I think the real problem. I mean you,

517
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 13: as I said, you know, the biggest movements was actually

518
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 13: in terms of financial indicators and accept for tourism. But

519
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 13: I think that if you look at manufacturing and you

520
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 13: look at a medium term trend and you see that

521
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 13: there were the increases that we see in manufacturing, in construction,

522
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 13: in the retail, the volumes of retail solar sales, there's

523
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 13: not much of a movement there actually away from the

524
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 13: longer term trend that wasn't very good. So that is

525
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 13: a challenge that we actually facing is to convert the

526
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 13: sort of level of let's say, or what we see

527
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 13: at the moment that is more sort of feeling good

528
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 13: type of thing into real activity. And I think and

529
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 13: that is where economic growth comes in, which is the

530
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 13: most important part of this. And to have growth, you

531
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 13: must actually create the circumstances or an environment where long

532
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 13: term investors come in we're fixed capital and and actually

533
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 13: invest in in in bricks and mortar as they usually

534
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 13: had to say, but let's say computers and machines and

535
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 13: whatever the case may be nowadays.

536
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: And that is the important thing behind us.

537
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 13: I mean, it's about investor confidence in the end driving

538
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 13: the economy. And again that depends upon your policy position,

539
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 13: what dryed, what direction your investors is the economy might

540
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 13: be moving in. And I think we just saw about

541
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 13: two days ago I am f again visiting South African

542
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 13: make recommendations about we must really start working hard at

543
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 13: structural sort of sort of important improvements in the economy.

544
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 13: And one can lesson go on a missipalities and logistics

545
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 13: and all that stuff. But that is the crux of

546
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 13: the method. It's about an economy function properly local authorities,

547
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 13: which is the base for activity, actually real activity.

548
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: We should perform better.

549
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 13: And I think that is the main issues that we're

550
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 13: facing Richard.

551
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 3: We've seen, you know, people talk about the good news

552
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 3: the actions that government has taken, the improvements of transmit electricity.

553
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: Is there an obvious next step? I mean, I can

554
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: think of several One would be getting on top of

555
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: the construction mafia, for example, and I think that is

556
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 3: beginning to happen so early days. Is there an obvious

557
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: next thing that government should do well?

558
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 13: I think the next thing is I think a medium

559
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 13: term budget policy statement that we so, I mean, one

560
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 13: can one can look at those things and we see

561
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 13: small changes taking place in terms of first your economic

562
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 13: allocation away from say salaries or wages to more fixed

563
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 13: the investment and that type of thing, capital in capital

564
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 13: and and and sort of not borrowing. That is the

565
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 13: immediate stuff that we're facing at the moment. I think

566
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 13: that one of the biggest issues is actually the public sector,

567
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 13: you know, which is a very important sector actually in

568
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 13: the economy. That is not functioning properly. And we can

569
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 13: go on and on. I mean, and we look at

570
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 13: crime sort of prevention and policing and all that that stuff,

571
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 13: you know, and and I think that is the challenges.

572
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: It is more than challenges.

573
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 13: It's becoming a problem actually, and it can become critical

574
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 13: we don't attend to it immediately.

575
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: Richard Downing, thank you the Economist to compiles the Business

576
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: Confidence Index for the Essay Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

577
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 15: The Money Show Steel Protest is brought to you by

578
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 15: Abscess the IV. Discover the latest shaping digital assets across Africa.

579
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 15: Download the ABSO Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty twenty five.

580
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: Six men us now to seven the time. Well, we've

581
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: been hearing through the week. Our farmers are expecting big

582
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 3: maze office this season. We've had a lot of rain

583
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: in the high felt. But it looks like dairy prices

584
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: around the world so think better which we import a

585
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,719
Speaker 3: lot of cheese as well. I suppose that those prices

586
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: are going to forll and with chocolate prices. There's been

587
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: a big surgeon milk production and that's pushing down the

588
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: prices of certain items. Tabila and Kunjana is an agricultural economist. Tobila,

589
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: good evening. We'll get to the chocolate in the moment,

590
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: but first our proper dinner. Why has there been such

591
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: a big surgeon global dairy production? This New Zealand finally

592
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: got something right.

593
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 9: Good earning US two India. It seems like, yeah, New

594
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 9: Zealand is getting big to its formatlora because I remember

595
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 9: it has always been a leading you know, dea producer

596
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 9: across the world. And of course, once kind of influentials

597
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 9: such as New Zealand or even the European Union which

598
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 9: is also big, you know, the global supply is always

599
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 9: going to be you know increasing at that time, and

600
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 9: it seems like we are experiencing that. And not only that.

601
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 9: Another issue is that because of you know, milk and

602
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 9: other products that are there, they're not necessarily you know,

603
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 9: stable products. They are sort of you know, supplement our foods.

604
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 9: So once economies are not doing where were the demand

605
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 9: was not really there, So when we have a subdued

606
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 9: demand and the oversupply, then we are highly it'says going

607
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 9: to be the case where we're going to see you know,

608
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 9: the prices for all the products like batter as you're

609
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 9: mentioning and appoints the milk itself.

610
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: I'm presuming that most of the milk we consumers actually

611
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: produced in South Africa. Are we going to see people

612
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: importing milk here in some way trying to looking for

613
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: a market?

614
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, given that now it's such a because once you

615
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 9: have bigger players that are there influentially, you can never

616
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 9: know how the market schoolers are really gonna you know,

617
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 9: is gonna react. But the overall view, general view is

618
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 9: that once you you know, for instance, he acros mention

619
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 9: that South Africa we produce very larger amounts of our

620
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 9: own milk and actually were even domating in some way

621
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 9: of selling it. But the air products that are dairy

622
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 9: that we book that we do buy, you know, from

623
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 9: the likes of cheese that are coming from the countries

624
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 9: in the European Union. So those products are going to

625
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 9: relatively go down, which is a good thing for the consumers,

626
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 9: especially those that are really into cheese and other products

627
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 9: that are made of milk. But generally that's how the

628
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 9: you know, the fushion sends. But for South Africa specifically

629
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 9: and for milk, we are really doing cold. But the

630
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 9: air products, especially process products that we do buy outside.

631
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 3: We're seeing also cocoa products. Cocoa prices are down, and

632
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 3: I mean it's been a big story of the last year.

633
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 3: They're actually and cocoa obviously goes into choclate. It's down

634
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: forty five percent on the Yeah, wow.

635
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 9: That's a significant one. I remember. I'm not sure if

636
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 9: it was with you, but I did discuss this some

637
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 9: time ago when we had a record of around twelve

638
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 9: hours wasn't used all as pertern of cocoa last year,

639
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 9: and that was very much, you know, a show for

640
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 9: a lot of people, with a lot of you know,

641
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 9: people saying that this is how this happening. But there

642
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 9: were a lot of drivers to that, and one of

643
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 9: them was the fact that you know, about sixty to

644
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 9: seventy five percent of cocoa from the world, it comes

645
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 9: primarily from the West African countries, largely Correvo, Ghana and Nigeria,

646
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 9: and that region was experiencing an El Nino that is

647
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 9: drivet kind of the situation. So therefore that really impected

648
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 9: the production and one countries that are very influential like that,

649
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 9: and with the concenteration of heavy the cocoa itself, that

650
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 9: sage was expected. As a result, we saw you know,

651
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 9: that sage to the towlf thousands. But for now we're

652
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 9: feeling roughier, just around a little bit six thousand years

653
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 9: the town of Cocoa, which is still a little bit higher,

654
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 9: you know, but relatively lower compared to what we saw

655
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 9: last year. So these somehow it's had some good news,

656
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 9: especially for the lovers chocolate will going to the festival

657
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 9: and even to the eliot of you know, the barbines,

658
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 9: for the guys that are into Valentine's and all that.

659
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: I presume chocolate prices are very sticky, by which I

660
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: mean that they were probably quite careful to increase the

661
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 3: price quite slowly. They wouldn't have wanted to shock people.

662
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: It's also something you can I mean, I'm told you

663
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 3: can live without. But now now you're in a position

664
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: where prices are coming down. Unless there's a nice big

665
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: price war, which would be wonderful, people might keep the

666
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 3: prices where they are. There also probably gotta gotta got

667
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: some money they'd like to recoup.

668
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 9: You know that. The thing with market stibing is that

669
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 9: was constant. If you talk about chocolate, now you're talking

670
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 9: about the value edition of it and if you actually

671
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 9: gate the countras that dominate. That is the life of Germany, Belgium, Italy,

672
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 9: you know, the open Union, because that's where the chocolates

673
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 9: are coming from, which is exactly worse and Africa exports

674
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 9: is for us, you know. So as a result of

675
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 9: that we have seen a spill over into our market.

676
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 9: But of course the Markeat is always going to be

677
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 9: careful in terms of how things look like because I

678
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 9: remember another issue that has been impacting okay here is

679
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 9: in a disease they call it a solent, something specularly

680
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 9: from the West Afranca. So those are some of the

681
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 9: issues that you know, we cannot really say, you know,

682
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 9: in the long run, but at least for now, things

683
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 9: are really looking good for you know, for everyone, including

684
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 9: the sellers of the chocolate and then of course the buyers.

685
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 9: But we're hoping that things are going to stabilize because

686
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 9: I mean, there's a lot ot of ebenly across this.

687
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 9: It's not the disease outbreaks. Here is the speculative trading

688
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 9: in it because of the imbalances in the market and

689
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 9: the changes in their production dynamics, and of course the

690
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 9: experts themselves.

691
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: Tabillian Conjana, thanks very much, indeed, and agricultural economists fascinating

692
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: to z a. Quickly things change and normally you see

693
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 3: big stories when prices go up, but when prices go down,

694
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: you don't see the same story. But the story here

695
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: is is forty five percent. I mean that really is extraordinary.

696
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: Talk about the US and their new visa waiver program issues.

697
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: It's around your social media. We talk about small businesses

698
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: in the end of year as well. And don't forget

699
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 3: investment school tonight, Zaronia and Jaibar. What am I talking about?

700
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: I'm not entirely sure actually, but I'll know by eight o'clock.

701
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 3: Good evening. You're with The Money Show. It's just gone.

702
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: Seven and now The Money Show with Stephen Scridits on

703
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: seven oh two. Let's walk little.

704
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Crutius is brought to you

705
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: by Abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

706
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: across Africa. Download the abser Africa Digital Assets inside twenty

707
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: twenty five. Eight minutes now after seventh the time lost

708
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 3: to come. We'll speak to Sepa Malolla Zoondie in just

709
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: a moment our tech expert. What's happening in the US

710
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: if you're going to go there, the visa, a waiver program,

711
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 3: all the sorts of things. But social media suddenly becoming

712
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: a big issue. People being banned just because of something

713
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 3: they said on social media. Also looking at small business focus.

714
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: What do you do if you're a small business the

715
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 3: end of the year, do you have a little party

716
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 3: for clients? People love it, by the way, I mean,

717
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: they do like to be invited. It costs you a

718
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: bit of money. How do you manage that? And then

719
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 3: in investment school Jaibar and Zoronia, what it means for

720
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: you and what they actually are. It's quite a technical area.

721
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 3: I'm quite looking forward to it, actually because I know

722
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: so little about these two reference rates and why they're important.

723
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: So I'm quite looking forward to Investment School tonight. Good

724
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 3: to hear from you as well. Double ONEAA three seven

725
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 3: O two two one four four six five six seven

726
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 3: and Voice Nights on seven two, seven, O two one

727
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: seven O two.

728
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 5: Thelney Show with Stephen Krudis Live on ninety two point

729
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 5: seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

730
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 6: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

731
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 3: I was fascinated by something I saw today from IATA there,

732
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 3: the International Airline Association, and they suggesting that in terms

733
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: of the average real sort of rate, the average real

734
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 3: airfare in twenty twenty five US is thirty four point

735
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: seven percent cheaper than it wasn't twenty fifteen. In other words,

736
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: if you're flying now, you're paying nearly forty percent less

737
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: in real terms than you were ten years ago. I mean,

738
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 3: that is unbelievable, and I mean it talks to so

739
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 3: many things. I mean I sometimes look at airlines and

740
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 3: I sort of think, how are you making any money?

741
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: And the answer is they're making very very little. And

742
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: we've seen that in South Africa. Actually quite a few

743
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: have sort of gone under a terrible phrase to use

744
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 3: with an airline, but quite a few have been sort

745
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: of grounded. Let me say it like that. There are,

746
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 3: of course one or two one in particular that seems

747
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 3: to be doing as particularly well, but the airline industry

748
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 3: making very little money per passenger. And I do wonder

749
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: what will change. Is there too much capacity, is there

750
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: are two are not enough people flying? I don't know

751
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 3: if it's just that. I think globally, if you look

752
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 3: at what's happening in the US, there's a big problem

753
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 3: with their infrastructure. The airports are not as good as

754
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: they should be. You see some fantastic airports and other

755
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: parts of the world, parts of Asia, some parts of

756
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: Europe and parts of Asia particularly, and just that that

757
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: infrastructure I think has an impact. Now people worried about

758
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: regulations in Africa. Visa restrictions are a major issue. You

759
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: just don't get the demand that you should. But sure,

760
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: next time you're on an airline and they don't have

761
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: the movie you want or you can't get the drink

762
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: that you want, just remember you're paying nearly forty percent

763
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: less than you were ten years ago.

764
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: How many taxt Thursday.

765
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: Well, Sipumalela Zoondie joins us now of course in Sepermalela

766
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: good evening the US saying it's going to look at

767
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 3: social media histories of people from countries that don't require

768
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 3: a visa. So this means that when you arrive in

769
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: the US, or when you when you apply for a

770
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 3: visa or whatever it is, you could actually find that

771
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: people are going through your ex your LinkedIn. I mean,

772
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: they've been doing that a bit before, but they certainly

773
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: seem to be ramping it up.

774
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 16: Hello Ceveland. Yes, it seems like it's something that they want.

775
00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 11: To do a lot more of.

776
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 16: They even saying that they want access to emails from

777
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 16: the last ten years and U seeing that some of

778
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 16: the conversations we have, you know, email, our private messages

779
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 16: that you could be having with family, potential employers even

780
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 16: and other individuals. But it's social medium, and it's now

781
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 16: being extended to emails as well, and also social medium

782
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 16: of people from about forty countries because it's about forty

783
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 16: countries that have a visa waiver to enter the US.

784
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: They want to look at your email.

785
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 16: That's what they're saying. They're saying that it's been a

786
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 16: proposal at the moment, Yes, but they're saying it's an

787
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 16: email for the last ten years, and it's a proposal

788
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 16: that they've put out the public to the public has

789
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 16: about sixty days to comment on this and to say

790
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 16: whether they agree with this move or not.

791
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 3: What are they looking for? And they speak clear, Aren't

792
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 3: they just looking for people who are anti the US

793
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 3: President Donald Trump? And you know what on social media

794
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: they're playing.

795
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 16: Oh totally, that's what it is. Right, They're looking for

796
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 16: people who probably have been critical of the United States

797
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 16: of America and its laws and some of its actions,

798
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 16: especially of late in the rest of the world. Maybe

799
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 16: also they're looking for your political views because a lot

800
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 16: of people do share their political views, and when they

801
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 16: now go into your email, they probably are looking for

802
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 16: stuff that you haven't even shared publicly. You'll probably shared

803
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 16: it with friends and family, but you haven't really shared

804
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 16: it publicly.

805
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated about how they would do this because they

806
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 3: would want to do it quite quickly, right, and they

807
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: must be using I don't know, software from Palenta or

808
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 3: someone AI in some way, because you can't go through

809
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 3: I mean, if you had to sit down and go

810
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: through a teenagers social media, I mean, trust me on

811
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 3: the super Malaenia, you don't have the time. I mean,

812
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: they must be using some very clever software to do

813
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 3: it well totually.

814
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 16: Not they probably would have to consult some sort of

815
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 16: AI in order for them, because when you think about

816
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 16: the airport and how difficult it is to get everybody

817
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 16: through as it is, so now you have a whole

818
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 16: lot of people who you have to go through every

819
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 16: social media platform that they've ever been in, and it's

820
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 16: different from when they've applied for a visa because there

821
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 16: you keep the passport for let's say a couple of

822
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 16: days while you do the work. Here, it's at the

823
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 16: airport and they need to go through very quickly, so

824
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 16: they would probably have to consult some sort of AI

825
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 16: tool in order for them to do this effectively if

826
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 16: it's going to pass at all.

827
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 3: They've been doing this a little bit. I mean I've

828
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 3: heard of cases where people from visa exempt countries. Britain

829
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: was one. I think there was an Australian example of

830
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 3: people who said certain things and found themselves being turned

831
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 3: back when they arrived at the US. I mean they've

832
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 3: been doing this a little bit already. I don't know

833
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 3: how effective it's been.

834
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 16: Yes, especially for your high profile individuals. I'm even thinking

835
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 16: there was a South Africa is not a visa free

836
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 16: country travel to the US. But there's even been No

837
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 16: is a music producer from South Africa who mentioned that

838
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 16: he'd posted something and suddenly as this that he'd received

839
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 16: was revoked through the US so he couldn't he could

840
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 16: no longer call there, even though it had initially been

841
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 16: pen Quanta. So they have already been have started drinks,

842
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 16: especially this year more than more than before.

843
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 3: One of the things I find interesting is that if

844
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: you want to say, stevens social media accounts over the

845
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 3: last three years or even five years, that's fine. But

846
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: over ten years, people change so dramatically. So not just

847
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 3: that your views change, but you know the old claim,

848
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 3: oh my social media was hacked, right, And what you'll

849
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: be able to do is you'll be able to say

850
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: that post ten years ago didn't come from me because

851
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 3: I looked different, I had a completely different profile picture,

852
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: I had a beard, eyed hair, whatever. I don't have

853
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: those things anymore. Whatever it is, you'll be able to

854
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 3: do that. I mean, you start to get into a

855
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 3: really complicated space when you're trying to prove something from

856
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: ten years ago.

857
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 16: It goes beyond that, right, because it also goes to

858
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 16: whether it's not going to chase away travelers as well,

859
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 16: from especially from those because the reason the visa free

860
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 16: countries is because they are countries that are probably probably

861
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 16: are better than most countries economically, and they have very

862
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 16: very many options in terms of where they can go.

863
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 16: So when they now know that they're going to be

864
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 16: stopped at an airport and they're going to take a

865
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 16: very long time to be processed and there's going to

866
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 16: be in a way an invasive method that's going to

867
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 16: even look through their private conversations where they've shared private

868
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 16: information with certain individuals, and think about all the things

869
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 16: you share on your email with with your employer, when

870
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 16: you're applying for stuff, et cetera, et cetera, And so

871
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 16: would people not then want to go elsewhere as opposed

872
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 16: to a space where that's be problematic.

873
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 3: Have we seen other governments doing this acting against people

874
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 3: on social media. I mean, I know of cases where

875
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: people have been arrested for things they've said on social media,

876
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 3: but that's usually very political.

877
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 16: It's unusual for the United States of America or for

878
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 16: let's say Western democracies who do this. But yes, we've

879
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 16: seen quite a lot of this. The latest on us

880
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 16: for example of Tanzania, where there was a clam down

881
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 16: around election time of people and their views on social media.

882
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 16: Arrest and the like that happened there. So it happens

883
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 16: quite often, even social media shutdowns, when governments feel that

884
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 16: people are engaging in content or conversations that are untowards

885
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 16: towards the state. It's rare that you've seen it are

886
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 16: being done by a Western government in the way that

887
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 16: is proposed by the United States of America.

888
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 3: I mean, some people might censor themselves. Might be a

889
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: bit late now, I suppose. But social media, I think

890
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: it's changing so much anyway. I mean, obviously it depends,

891
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 3: but I know some people just don't spend nearly as

892
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 3: much time on certain parts of it, excess lost a

893
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: huge number of users. Something does seem to be shifting.

894
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 3: And I don't know how useful this is going to

895
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 3: be to the US.

896
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 16: I'm not even sure if it's useful at all, because

897
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 16: does someone change their views about America or about whatever

898
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 16: issue just because they've been refused entry into the country.

899
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 16: So I'm not sure about chaining views. But there has

900
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 16: been this narrative in the United States because when you

901
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 16: think about TikTok, from the beginning of the year, when

902
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 16: Trump came in as president, or just before he came

903
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 16: in as president, there was almost this stance that TikTok

904
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 16: needed to be shut down or it needed to be

905
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 16: owned by an American. Eventually, in the last month or so,

906
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 16: there was an agreement that the version of TikTok that

907
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 16: Americans are going to have access through is going to

908
00:46:55,320 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 16: be partially American, American owned, and it will be American control,

909
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 16: which means then that there could even be content that

910
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,479
Speaker 16: might be deleted, content that might be limited in terms

911
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 16: of visibility. So there has even before Trump I took

912
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 16: over in this second and last term of Face, this

913
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 16: view that there needed to be more control of conversations

914
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 16: that people are having on social media and what they

915
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 16: have access to and what visible to Americans.

916
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 3: Especially Sepermelela Zondie. Thank you so much, So interesting to

917
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 3: watch this play at our tech expert on The Money

918
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 3: Show nineteen minutes after seven, Small Business Focuses.

919
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: Next The Money Shows Small Business Focus.

920
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: Twenty one minutes after seven, The time a year end

921
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 3: heading into the Christmas season. Lots of conversations about what

922
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 3: you're going to do, what we're not going to do,

923
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 3: and how small business manages that some Colobo Uberzon entrepreneur

924
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 3: and business strategies from co Coloba. Good to have you

925
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: with us again. If you're an entrepreneur, if you're running

926
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: a small business, I mean, should you be in the

927
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: business of having a year end function or something.

928
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 17: Like that, Hie, Stephen, Always a pleasure to join you.

929
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 17: Thank you so much for having me again. I mean,

930
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 17: it's quite an interesting one, right because entrepreneurs pinch pennies,

931
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 17: and the question is is that a worthwhile spend.

932
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 14: I think if we kind of.

933
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 17: Go down to the essence of kind of this year

934
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 17: in functioned like madness that we're seeing at the moment.

935
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 14: Is that it is a way to pause, reflect.

936
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 17: It is a way to thank different stakeholders, be it

937
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 17: your staff, be it your clients, be it other stakeholders

938
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 17: that are quite keen your value chaining for the year

939
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 17: that you've done and collaborated over. So while maybe you're

940
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 17: not throwing the biggest of parties, but in essence you've

941
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 17: got to find a way to still do those things

942
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 17: in order to.

943
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 14: Be top of mind, especially if some of your.

944
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 17: Clients are large corporates who are kind of spoiling their

945
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 17: clients and staff at this time of year.

946
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all about that sort of personal relationship

947
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: at this point, and any face time that you can

948
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 3: get them to see you is probably a good thing.

949
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: Whether you do a kind of look at the low

950
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 3: key seven point thirty, but we'll have good coffee and

951
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 3: we'll sort of and you'll make it yourself, or or

952
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 3: it's a kind of slightly something better than that. I mean,

953
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 3: all of that's a good thing.

954
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 14: One hundred percent, And I think your spot on it's

955
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 14: about FaceTime.

956
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 17: I think I think post COVID, we've kind of gotten

957
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 17: comfortable hiding behind screens and there's nothing like in person

958
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 17: and like you say, in order for you to remain

959
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 17: top of mind, but also most importantly, build relationships. I

960
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 17: think we often like to hide behind the company, the corporates,

961
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 17: the business. But all these things aren't actually real. It's

962
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 17: the people who are real. And you know we're biased,

963
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 17: we're not always objective. Then the reality is we also

964
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 17: have recency biased, which is we remember the most recent thing.

965
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 17: We remember the most person is the loudest. And therefore,

966
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 17: this is a season where entrepreneurs actually do need to

967
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 17: show up, not just for themselves to have a moment

968
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 17: of reflection and a pat on the back for the

969
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 17: year and strategizing for the new year, but for their

970
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 17: staff members who decided to kind of go this hard

971
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 17: journey with you and take a risk on.

972
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 14: The dream and vision that you're building.

973
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 17: But also for those clients who have also believed in

974
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 17: your business and decided to go the course with you.

975
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 3: I mean I've been at a situation at a sort

976
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: of financial are end party where I've bumped into a

977
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 3: person from a different part of a company I was

978
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 3: working for. That conversation led to something that led to

979
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: something else. It's the same for a small business. Even

980
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: if you are a team of five people and you

981
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 3: see each other every day, if you're meeting over a

982
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 3: cast over over a quick beer or a glass of

983
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 3: diet Fanta because that's all you have or for whatever reason,

984
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: you're still in a different space. And I think that's important.

985
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: Even if you're in the office, I find there's a

986
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: moment where people can relax with the boss. Yep, you know,

987
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 3: boss has rolled up their sleeves and is having a

988
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 3: beer diet Fanta too, And that's an important moment. I think.

989
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 3: I think we should We shouldn't lose those moments.

990
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 14: Exactly. It's an important moment.

991
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 17: While some would say if the bus doesn't stay too long, Stephen,

992
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 17: so that the rest of the team can have a

993
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 17: real party, But like you say, it's important to show up.

994
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 14: It's important to connect outside of.

995
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 17: The work, connect with the people, allow for the best

996
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,439
Speaker 17: ideas to happen. You know, the best ideas don't happen

997
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 17: when we're sitting behind our chairs at our desks kind

998
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 17: of running through the to do list or on team scores.

999
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 17: It really does happen in the more natural moments of connection,

1000
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 17: which we've got to create space for. And like you say,

1001
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 17: whether it's a free picnic at Zoo Lake or a

1002
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 17: leisurely walk at kirstin Bosh if your in Kpe town,

1003
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 17: or like you say, kind of you know, I've had

1004
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 17: some entrepreneurs who open up their homes and say, you know,

1005
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 17: you've given so much into the business, come over.

1006
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 14: To our home as our host you for a briye

1007
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 14: or host you for.

1008
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 17: A lunch in order to keep the cost down, and

1009
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 17: that really brings people in but also kind of shows

1010
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 17: them your human side, because I think as entrepreneurs, at

1011
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 17: some point, people do kind of forget that we.

1012
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 14: Are humans and that we can have a bit of

1013
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 14: fun and.

1014
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 17: That we also have stresses and concerns that everyone has,

1015
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 17: and that we have partners, we have families, we have homes,

1016
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 17: and I do think that this is an opportunity that

1017
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 17: entrepreneurs shouldn't miss out on.

1018
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I like the idea of a picnic because

1019
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 3: there are so many places to do it. Going into

1020
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 3: the season, you know, I think from I think from Friday.

1021
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 3: I think from tomorrow things are going to calm down dramatically.

1022
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 3: We have the sixteenth public holiday on Tuesday. What should

1023
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 3: we be focused on as an entrepreneur right now?

1024
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 14: So I think first things first, if you're an entrepreneur,

1025
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 14: make sure you've got all your invoices paid.

1026
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 17: December and January are very very long months, and they

1027
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 17: are still bills to be paid. So if you aren't

1028
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 17: on top of your finances, aren't on top of your

1029
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 17: collections and creditors, I mean you're already late, but kind

1030
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 17: of frantically go through those tonight and make sure that

1031
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 17: you're making personal calls and popping at people's offices tomorrow.

1032
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 14: Then once you've made sure that kind of the key,

1033
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 14: keep the lights on, keep the live things are sorted, then.

1034
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 17: I'd suggest that it. I know entrepreneurs hate going down.

1035
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 17: I know they believe in work, work, work all the time.

1036
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 17: That I do challenge entrepreneurs and ask them, when you

1037
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 17: came up with the idea for the business that you're

1038
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 17: currently building in, what setting were you in?

1039
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 14: Were you working like a dog or were you on holiday.

1040
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 17: Were you in the shower or were you sitting behind

1041
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 17: your laptop being super productive? And I really import entrepreneurs

1042
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 17: to take the time, especially if you're doing business with

1043
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 17: large corporates. It's kind of dead season effectively for about

1044
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 17: a month and a half relee un till about the

1045
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 17: mid jam. End of jam is the reality from a

1046
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 17: corporate clients perspective. Then it is to use the time

1047
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 17: to be intentional in planning and thinking and reimagining.

1048
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 14: What is the next step for your business.

1049
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 17: I find a lot of entrepreneurs are surviving day to

1050
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 17: day and actually we need to be a little bit

1051
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 17: more intentional. And by intentional, I'm not asking you to

1052
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 17: go on a strategy off site and pan the next

1053
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 17: five years.

1054
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 14: That just doesn't work.

1055
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 9: You know.

1056
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 17: What we are asking you to do is say where

1057
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 17: has the business gone into, what has worked, what hasn't worked,

1058
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 17: What are the key three things one achieved nexture and

1059
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 17: how do we go about that and how do we

1060
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 17: make sure that there are priorities So when we check

1061
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 17: in at a quarterly basis and half your basis, those

1062
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 17: are the key things that we are driving.

1063
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: So Koba, thank you very much. Indeed, some Kobobus, entrepreneur

1064
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 3: and business strategist, The Money.

1065
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: Show, Investment School.

1066
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: Twenty four minutes now to eighth the time. Well earlier

1067
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 3: this week on The Money Show, you heard a conversation

1068
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 3: about the fact that the Johannesburg Interbank average rate Jaibar

1069
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,280
Speaker 3: is being phased out. It's being replaced by the South

1070
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 3: African Rand Overnight Index average, which is known as Zoronia.

1071
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: I realize Erronia sounds like a place, but it is

1072
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 3: in fact an a rate. Now these are reference rates

1073
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 3: that you have no direct control over, but they do

1074
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 3: have an indirect effect on you, particularly on your loans

1075
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 3: and your mortgage. So tonight on Investment School, what are

1076
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 3: these rates, what do they do, how do they work,

1077
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 3: who moves them around? What on earth are they for?

1078
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 3: And why are we moving from Jaibar up to Zoronia? You.

1079
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 3: Zacharli is a senior Associate in Banking, Finance and Projects

1080
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 3: at CDH and Astrod Rabe is an Associate director at Deloitte.

1081
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 3: Good evening to you both, and I really appreciate the time.

1082
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 3: It's such a fascinating subject, so thank you for coming.

1083
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 3: Let me start with you. Good evening, and why do

1084
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: we have these different reference rates and what are they actually?

1085
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 6: Good evening, Steven, Good evening to your least listeners, and

1086
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 6: thank you for having me on the show tonight. So

1087
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 6: just to start off, we have we had Jiba, which

1088
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 6: is a forward looking rate built on submissions by a

1089
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 6: panel of banks, and the market realized that those banks

1090
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 6: were thinning out and so the quote became less representative.

1091
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 6: So this is now being replaced by Zarnia, which is

1092
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 6: now transaction based rates derived from actual overnight rand deposits.

1093
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 6: So in planting language, even we're moving from an estimate

1094
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 6: to our measured reality, which will offer us great such

1095
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 6: as transparency, robustness, and in alignment with monetary policy. So, in essence,

1096
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 6: these are the rates, and you also we can use

1097
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 6: them in cash markets.

1098
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 3: Basically, I need we need to go back a little

1099
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 3: bit here. What on earth are they for? So I

1100
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 3: understand what an interest rate is. It's the rate at

1101
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 3: which the reserve bank lends money to other banks. Because

1102
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 3: the reserve bank changes, lowers or raises the interest rate

1103
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 3: to other banks, those other banks transfer that raise or drop.

1104
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 3: To me, what are these what are these reference rates for?

1105
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 6: Thanks Steven, We use the reference rates which underpinned the markets,

1106
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 6: as I mentioned earlier, So it's basically how we derive

1107
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 6: our interest rates in the loans that are are serid

1108
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 6: by banks.

1109
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 3: Astra. Do other places have rates like this as well?

1110
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 3: Are there other rates not just these two that people use.

1111
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 2: Lang and thank you for having me?

1112
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 4: So there are a lot of different rates that are

1113
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:28,479
Speaker 4: out there. Your gibar rate is a very specific rate

1114
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 4: in that it's an interbank rate, right so Jibar Johannesburg

1115
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 4: interbank average rate. So it's not something that your typical

1116
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 4: consumer will really come across. The normal kind of rate

1117
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 4: that someone will have on their home loan will.

1118
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 2: Typically be a prime rate.

1119
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 4: That's what everyone knows, but there are certain instances where

1120
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 4: you might have a gibar rate that links into it.

1121
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 4: And yes, there are many different rates out there, but

1122
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 4: this is a particular benchmark rate that is being phased

1123
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,919
Speaker 4: out now as you see also mentioned you know, due

1124
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 4: to to thinning of the market, but there was.

1125
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: A much broader issue.

1126
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 4: So so an interbank rate isn't something that is specific

1127
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 4: to South Africa. It is a global rate they often

1128
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 4: refer to as eyeball rates, and there was a lot

1129
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 4: of manipulation of the rate, So it's traders that actually

1130
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 4: went and they had to go and submit to the

1131
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 4: rate at the end of the day, and that opened

1132
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 4: it up to manipulation. The news Auronia rate that is

1133
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 4: being introduced in about a year's time removes that element

1134
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 4: of manipulation. So it is a very representative rate. It

1135
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 4: is a very robust rate, and as such, it's just

1136
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 4: a much better rate to be using.

1137
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 3: Okay, I really need to go back to the very

1138
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 3: beginning with this. It's quite it's quite technical. Why do

1139
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: we need a reference rate in the first place. I'm

1140
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 3: trying to get to what purpose it serves and why

1141
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 3: do we even need it.

1142
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: I mean, there are different purposes.

1143
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 4: It's really just an to bank type of funding funding

1144
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 4: element between the banks, and other rates are.

1145
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: Built off the back of it.

1146
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 4: Like I said, your your normal consumer out there won't

1147
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 4: really be too affected by it. It's just something that

1148
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 4: is needed between the banks when they trade amongst each other,

1149
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 4: and then it can be as a basis for other

1150
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 4: financial instruments.

1151
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 2: It can just be pulled in there.

1152
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 3: Okay, smacide, what would happen if we didn't have a

1153
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 3: reference rate? Let me try and get to the question

1154
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 3: in that.

1155
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 6: Way, So Stephen, like as has been said by Astrid,

1156
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 6: it's used as a benchmark interest that is used by banks.

1157
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 6: It's a benchmark interest that is used by banks and

1158
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 6: financial institutions to set the cost of borrowing.

1159
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: And the examples that she's given.

1160
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 6: Gaiba software and the prime rate, why we needed for

1161
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 6: fair pricing. It ensures loans and natural products are priced

1162
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 6: consistently and transparently.

1163
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 2: It makes it.

1164
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 6: There is market alignment, so it keeps interest rates linked

1165
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 6: to market conditions.

1166
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: There is risk management.

1167
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 6: It is used in derivatives as has been mentioned, and

1168
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 6: it's also used as a fallback.

1169
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 2: So if we.

1170
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 6: Didn't have this rate, then we'd have unfair pricing, we

1171
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 6: wouldn't have market alignment, et cetera.

1172
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I think, I think, I think I get it now.

1173
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: Who manages these rates? That's tru Let me start with you.

1174
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 3: So there was a reference earlier that the that Jibar

1175
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 3: was put together by bank bids and Zoronia is more accurate.

1176
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 3: So so let me just go back a bit. Who

1177
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 3: manages these rates in the first place.

1178
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 4: So ultimately it's published by the SAB, the South African

1179
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 4: Reserve Bank, but the current Gibar rate. As I've mentioned,

1180
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 4: it's based on trader submissions at the end of the day,

1181
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 4: and then it kind of gets average based on the

1182
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 4: number of submissions they get at the end of the day.

1183
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 4: Zornia is a similar construct, but it is based on

1184
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 4: actual traded volumes. So certain trades that are traded between

1185
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,479
Speaker 4: the banks, they those will be issued, and that rate

1186
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 4: is then fed to the SAAB, and the SAB will

1187
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 4: then go and publish that rate the following business.

1188
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 3: Day, and then all of the banks will follow that rate.

1189
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 3: And I presume all of them. I mean, there's no outliers.

1190
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 3: All of the banks would follow that and use that

1191
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 3: as a basis for something.

1192
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so if you're moving away from Jibar, the bulk

1193
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 4: of contracts will.

1194
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 2: Be moved over to Zornia.

1195
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 4: There are some exceptions, as they always are, but the

1196
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 4: generalized thinking is, yes, move.

1197
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: From Jibar over to Zornia for everybody.

1198
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,919
Speaker 3: Monside, is it possible? So Zoronia, I accept it must

1199
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 3: be better than Jibar, And I presume partly is that

1200
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 3: because of the way it's constructed as more accurate and

1201
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 3: ha's reduced the word volumes. Is that because it is

1202
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 3: taking into account how much trading, whereas Jibar is just

1203
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 3: looking at the last trays of the day.

1204
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 6: That's great, Stephen. So Giba is forward looking, so it's

1205
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 6: almost an estimate, whereas Zoronia is based on the previous

1206
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 6: night's transaction, so it's transaction based. It's more accurate.

1207
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 3: Could they one day be a better way to create

1208
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 3: a rate that would make it better than Zoronia and

1209
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 3: more accurate in some way?

1210
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 6: Most likely, Stephen, Given that Jaba has been in the

1211
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 6: market for a number of deca it is possible that

1212
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 6: the market could come up with a better interest rate.

1213
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 3: Okay, So as to the way that these developed, they

1214
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 3: presume they have a long history. I presume they've been

1215
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 3: quite a long way around. Quite they've been around for

1216
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 3: quite a long time. Do is there a sort of

1217
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 3: best way to do it? I mean, you spoke about

1218
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 3: other similar rates, reference rates in other countries. How are

1219
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 3: those rates then constructed?

1220
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 4: When you say they've been around for a while, you

1221
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 4: mean reference rates in general?

1222
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

1223
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 4: So this, this move over from Java to Zornia is

1224
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 4: not something that is specific to South Africa. The move

1225
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 4: from an eyeball rate as we call it, to a

1226
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 4: new reference rate has been done globally. South Africa is

1227
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 4: actually lagging behind a bit. We're one of the last

1228
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 4: jurisdictions to transition at this point. So yeah, there are

1229
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 4: definitely at other rates in the global markets, but the construction,

1230
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 4: the way that the that rate is calculated is actually

1231
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 4: the same the South African MPG as we call it,

1232
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 4: which is the Market Practitioners Group who has been working

1233
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 4: on this for a long time now. They looked at

1234
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 4: many different types of rates that could be used to

1235
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 4: replace Jaibar. They ended up on Zoronia, as we know,

1236
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 4: and it's a similar construct to what has been done

1237
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 4: globally in each of the large jurisdictions as well. So

1238
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 4: we haven't really deviated much from global thinking.

1239
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 3: Either, Okay, And I mean I'm presuming that the United

1240
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 3: States will have probably quite a big series of reference rates,

1241
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 3: and the UK will as well, and will are they

1242
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 3: likely to have more reference rates than we do?

1243
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 4: I mean, it's possible, sure that that's really up to

1244
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 4: the individual jurisdiction on what they require.

1245
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 3: Sin Mocilla. When we look at these rates, what then

1246
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 3: impact does it have on actual ordinary people? And I

1247
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 3: know there's been reference to the fact that quite a

1248
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 3: few home loans. I thinks about one hundred thousand of them,

1249
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 3: maybe a few more are linked to Gibar. Why would

1250
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 3: some home loans be linked to Jibar and others are not.

1251
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 2: I think.

1252
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 6: Borrowers in general should take into account that there will

1253
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 6: be timing risks, so the market or banks will a

1254
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 6: main agreements take into account the compounding the spread risk.

1255
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 6: There is a credit acclastment spread that will be taken

1256
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 6: into account as well as operational risk that will be

1257
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 6: included in these home loans. So it's not going to

1258
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 6: affect all of them. It's just going to affect those

1259
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 6: that reference giber and those that had already referenced transitioning

1260
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 6: language would then it would then immediately follow through that

1261
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 6: it will be Zoronia. But if it was referencing Giba,

1262
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 6: then it would need to be amended, whereas if it

1263
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 6: were if it didn't reference Giba, then it obviously wouldn't

1264
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 6: be amended. So that's a difference between the two home

1265
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 6: loans where one references jib and the other one doesn't.

1266
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what is credits adjustment risk?

1267
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 6: Credit adjustment risk is used when you were sitching contract,

1268
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 6: so they adjust the repayment essentially in the contract.

1269
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 2: But it's a it's a it's a Zoronia.

1270
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 6: It's a manner in which Zeronia will be calculated. So

1271
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 6: you wouldn't find it in Giba, for example, but you'd

1272
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 6: find it now in Zoronia. So the backward looking if

1273
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 6: it would then take into accountact credit adjustment, so you

1274
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 6: adjust the credit based on the previous transactions.

1275
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 3: Astroid. When this happens, does it will it actually change

1276
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 3: the amount of interest that someone will be paying on

1277
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 3: a mortgage? If you're going from one reference rate to another.

1278
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 3: It would seem to me that it would have some

1279
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 3: impact on what people are actually paying.

1280
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 2: No, so it won't.

1281
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 4: The whole principle behind the move from Java to Zoronia

1282
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 4: is the principle of economic equivalence. It means that you

1283
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 4: shouldn't have any sort of economic impact in that move

1284
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 4: from the one reference rate to the other.

1285
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 2: The credit adjustment.

1286
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 4: Spread that also referred to is a spread that they

1287
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 4: put on top of the pure Zoronia rate to ensure

1288
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 4: that this new rate is the same level as your

1289
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 4: gibar rate currently, So when you.

1290
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 2: Switched from one to the next, the level ought to

1291
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:05,919
Speaker 2: be the same.

1292
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 4: There's a lot of difficult math behind it, but essentially

1293
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 4: it just takes into account that differential between the two rates,

1294
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 4: So there really shouldn't be an impact now.

1295
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 3: So Astra, if I had just got an email that

1296
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 3: asked me to open a PDF to examine a contract

1297
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 3: because one thing's going from Jibar and one thing is

1298
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 3: going and it's now gain to Zerrooni. If I had

1299
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 3: one of those mortgages and it turns out that what

1300
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 3: I am paying is not going to change, my next question,

1301
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 3: knowing nothing about how any of this works, would be

1302
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 3: then why the change? If you see what I mean.

1303
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 4: Yes, it comes down to the robustness of the underlying rate.

1304
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 4: So the bulk of the use of Jibar isn't in

1305
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,919
Speaker 4: your retail mortgages or anything.

1306
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: It's between the banks.

1307
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:01,679
Speaker 4: And because the Gibar rate was open too many, that

1308
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,759
Speaker 4: can then mean that your banks who have the bulk

1309
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 4: of the use of that particular rate, they could potentially

1310
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 4: they haven't as far as I know in South Africa,

1311
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 4: but they could potentially shift the rate to then move

1312
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 4: their positions or make them look like they have better

1313
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 4: positions than what they have. And that is the reason

1314
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 4: why we need to move. Unfortunately, anyone who has a

1315
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 4: home loan that references Jibar will be impacted by it,

1316
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 4: but they just need to know that at the end

1317
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 4: of the day they actually have a more robust rate.

1318
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 4: But it's just the technicals, the fundamentals of the rate

1319
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 4: that has changed to make it less susceptible to any

1320
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,640
Speaker 4: sort of manipulation. Other than that, there should not be

1321
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 4: any impact on your normal homeowner.

1322
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 3: Europe Investments School on The Money Show, we're discussing the

1323
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 3: end of Jibar and the arrival of Zeronia. We're talking

1324
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 3: really about reference rates that banks use to lend money

1325
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 3: from one to the other and why reference rates are

1326
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 3: import Astro Drabe is an Associate director at Deloitte. Sie

1327
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 3: Moselle Zekali is a Senior Associate and Banking Finance and

1328
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 3: Projects at CDH. There are guests on Investment School tonight.

1329
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 3: It's eight minutes state.

1330
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 15: The Money Show. Stepel Protest is brought to you by

1331
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:21,719
Speaker 15: abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets across Africa.

1332
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,960
Speaker 15: Download the ABS Africa Digital Assets Inside twenty twenty five.

1333
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 2: The Money Show Investment School.

1334
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 3: An investment school tonight we're talking about the end of

1335
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 3: Jaibar and the arrival of Zeronia. These are reference rates

1336
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 3: and why they're important. Sid Masille Zakali is a senior

1337
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 3: Associate and Banking Finance and Project at CDH. Astro Drabe

1338
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 3: is an Associate director at Deloitte s Masill. When you

1339
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 3: are moved from one rate to another, let me go

1340
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 3: back a little bit. Actually, because this is a technical area,

1341
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 3: is there a difference between how much one rate moves

1342
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 3: compared to the other? In other words, I suppose the

1343
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 3: correct word might be volatility. If they are both at

1344
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 3: value X, would you expect them to move up and

1345
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 3: down in the same way over time or would one

1346
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 3: be more likely to be slightly more variable or volatile

1347
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 3: than the other?

1348
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 6: Thanks, Steven, one would be more volatile than the other

1349
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 6: if one is forward looking, would think that the backward

1350
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 6: looking would there would be a difference between how they

1351
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,439
Speaker 6: are calculated, given that the one built in credits and

1352
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 6: liquidity and the other doesn't. Given that the one could

1353
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 6: be risk free or backward looking, so there will be

1354
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:50,960
Speaker 6: differences between how they are calculated.

1355
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:55,839
Speaker 3: Okay, So which one is more volatile? Zeronia or Jibar?

1356
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 3: Is it possible to know.

1357
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 6: Now, I think that Zeronia, given that it is more

1358
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:10,680
Speaker 6: so Jiba, is more volatile, and hence the move to Zoronia.

1359
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 6: So you'd want a more accurate rate, and I think

1360
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,600
Speaker 6: that's why that informs the move to Zoronia. But it

1361
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 6: would be a commercial discussion that we had with the

1362
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:24,720
Speaker 6: respective lender.

1363
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:31,720
Speaker 3: Okay okay astrod the what would make one So why

1364
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 3: why is being forward looking give you a different sort

1365
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 3: of measure of volatility than being backward looking? I suppose

1366
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 3: to put it another way, what is it about Zeronia

1367
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 3: that makes it more stable stable than Jibar?

1368
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 4: So the backward looking element means that it's based on

1369
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 4: actual trades that have happened in the past, as opposed

1370
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 4: to being a forward looking estimate, which is what Jaibar is.

1371
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 2: So Jaibar is.

1372
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,879
Speaker 4: Based, like I said, on based off of trade volumes

1373
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 4: going forward, but estimated rate. So it's because of the

1374
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 4: estimation element of it, it just it'll work a little

1375
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:14,679
Speaker 4: bit differently. There are obviously other operational elements that come

1376
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 4: in here on forward looking versus backward looking, but that's

1377
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 4: something that you're your large financial institutions would be more

1378
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 4: worried about but it's the overnight element of Zoronia which

1379
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 4: makes it a for lack of any other way saying,

1380
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 4: it's almost like a risk free rate.

1381
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 2: That risk free.

1382
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 4: Element then also removes some of that volatility that your

1383
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 4: credit and liquidity elements under the GIBI rate might store.

1384
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 7: Show.

1385
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 3: So were to say that have we lost anything by

1386
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 3: being so late to act? Should we have acted earlier

1387
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 3: and sort of been you know, as quick as some

1388
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 3: other countries were to change the way they did things.

1389
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 6: Certainly, Stephen, we should have acted earlier. But we are

1390
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 6: informed by the London market, so when they move, we

1391
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,600
Speaker 6: essentially move along with them. I think that the the

1392
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 6: timing is perfect, but yeah, given the backlog, it will

1393
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 6: take some time before Zeronia comes into effect. But yeah,

1394
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 6: we we could have made the change earlier. But again

1395
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 6: we're informed by the London market.

1396
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 3: Why are we informed by the London market?

1397
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 6: They regulate I guess they regulate loans universally, and so

1398
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 6: we we I guess. Also, the law that applies in

1399
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 6: in London is what we have adopted in South Africa,

1400
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:01,719
Speaker 6: so we're most likely going to what the London market

1401
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 6: is doing.

1402
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 3: It's the kind of classic thing of economies they follow

1403
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 3: each other, and when it comes to monetary policy and rates,

1404
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 3: they all kind of keep in touch, but they don't

1405
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:13,000
Speaker 3: follow each other. The governor will remind me. Thank you

1406
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:17,640
Speaker 3: very much, indeed. Mossill Zakali is a Senior Associate and

1407
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 3: Banking Finance and Projects at CDH. Estra Drabe is an

1408
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 3: Associate director at Deloitte. It's a very technical area. It

1409
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 3: shouldn't worry you personally. If you are a home owner,

1410
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:32,880
Speaker 3: you will have to ask some advice about it. But

1411
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 3: it is a very interesting and quarte technical area. I

1412
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,679
Speaker 3: learned a lot of night now Astrod and sid Mesilla.

1413
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 3: Thank you very much indeed for your time.

1414
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 15: The Money Show Steve Crotest is brought to you by

1415
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 15: Abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets across Africa.

1416
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 15: Download the ABSTH Africa Digital Assets Insight twenty twenty five.

1417
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:58,520
Speaker 3: Well in the US, things turning a little bit positive

1418
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 3: despite that AI scare from Oracle earlier. The Dow Jones

1419
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 3: is up one and a quarter percent, then Astek is

1420
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 3: down half a percent still, the S and P five

1421
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:09,320
Speaker 3: hundred up points zero two, so a lot still to come.

1422
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 3: I think. Also, people just the buoyancy still on the dow. Jones,

1423
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 3: I'm sure from the cut in interest rates last night

1424
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 3: in the US that's also strengthened the rand. We'll be

1425
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:22,200
Speaker 3: back tomorrow. Good evening, it's eight o'clock