1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Well, the most recent big news as that the Commissioner 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: of Police, General Fani Massimola, has been served with a 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: summons to appear in court on the twenty first of April. 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: And this is in connection with the same SAPs tender 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: problem for which police officers were arrested yesterday, appeared in 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: court earlier today. The vast majority of those appearing out 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: on bail. And we're talking about a major general, six brigadiers, 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: four colonels, a captain and a civilian James Murray, managing 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: director of the Medicare twenty four group, which it is 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: alleged got the tender through corrupt means. It all started 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: with Jeff Wicks's investigation entitled Nine Lives. The Independent Directed 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: against Corruption has been investigating the issues raised by that. 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: The ad Hoc Committee in Parliament has been looking into that, 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: as has the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry. Of course, the 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: Parliamentary Committee and the bad Lugger Commission going a little 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: wider than just this tender allegation. 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: Jeff, Good, afternoon, Good at New John, thank you for 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: having me. Just let's go. 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: Back to how Wuzi Katmatlala and this tender. First came 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: to your attention, which then led to nine lives, which 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: then led to a lot of other things. 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, John. So, I mean, we've we found Vusi 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: Muzi Matlala at Tembisa Hospital and we actually first reported 24 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: on him in November twenty twenty two, and we knew 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: then because of his connections to Morgan Marmela, he would 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: be a point of focus for us, so we kept 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: our eyes on him, and of course he was awarded 28 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: the tender of June in June of twenty twenty four, 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: and we published our first story in that December, and 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: that contributed to the unraveling of his empire, which we 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: see happening in real time now. 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: And Jeff, it's a long way to go before all 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: guilty verdicts are obtained, if indeed those charged are guilty 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: of the offenses with which they will be charged, and 35 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: there will be appeals and there will be delays, and 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: our court system can sometimes grind very inefficiently. But to me, 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: this is a very positive development. These arrests and the 38 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: summons served on the top cop are positive developments about 39 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: tackling the cancer that is crime in our country. 40 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: I completely agree with you. I think the difficult reality 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: we must confront is that the South African Police Service 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: is an organization which is not fit for purpose, and 43 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: there are serious probity questions around a lot of its leaders, 44 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: not least the National Police Commissioner. And I think the 45 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: essence of what he will have to face before court 46 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: relates to exactly what he did after he was warned 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: that there are serious issues with this tender and the 48 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: money that was dispersed at mcclala after he received those warnings. 49 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: I think that's going to be the high water mark 50 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: for him. But broadly speaking, what we've seen before the 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 2: Mid Lunga Commission leading up to this point, what our 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: own investigations have revealed for several years, is that the 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: police are dysfunctional and they seem to be more occupied 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: with serving the interests of certain factions and actually getting 55 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: down to the business tackling crime. 56 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: So I didn't read out the list of names, but 57 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: I did sort of number them. A major general in 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: the Sex brigadiers for Colonels, a captain and a civilian. 59 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: I mean the look. I suspect a lot of people 60 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: in the senior ranks of the police are promoted for 61 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: political rather than performance related reasons. But that is a 62 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: role call of dishonor which is frightening in a way. 63 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there's a lot of brass in that role call. 64 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: And you know, I've always felt John that that because 65 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: of the way in which the police work, and because 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: we're constantly inured by the scandals that they themselves self propel, 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: is that we hold police offices to an extremely low standard. 68 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: You know, it's distressing to me that offices of such 69 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: a significant rank, who are very well paid and who 70 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: carry an immense responsibility to the people of this country, 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: are so easily bought and paid for. Not to say 72 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: that there's any sort of guilt, we were not saying 73 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: that now, but at least there's a prima fuy case 74 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: in this matter enough to get all of these you know, 75 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: ranked officers into a dock. 76 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: And in terms of the arrests, the individuals and you're reporting, 77 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: do you think that in this particular case. I mean, 78 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: there are a lot of other cases because the you know, 79 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: the hospital corruption matter, bar Beta de Dio Koran, there's 80 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: a lot of work still to be done there, the 81 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: cut along hospital and so on. But in terms of 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: the specific three hundred and sixty million round healthcare tender. 83 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: Do you think that the people who are on prema 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: farchy evidence at the center of it all, that there's 85 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: been a clean sweep. 86 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: I believe so, John, I think you know, when we 87 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: consider that all of these officers were part of or 88 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: primarily part of the BIT Evaluation Committee, it tells us 89 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: that perhaps in the case of this tender, there was 90 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: there was a preconceived outcome in mind. You know, they've 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: they've been charged in relation to the material misrepresentations they 92 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: made to the BAC, which obviously paved the way for 93 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: the award. And what underpins that is is fraud is fraud. 94 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 2: So you know, what again gives me pause is that 95 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: it's not only this tender that we've had to report 96 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: on that which has come out of the police. The 97 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: police's own procurement section has been a site of extraction 98 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: for many years. I mean it was it was so 99 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: during COVID, it has been through technological procurement of you know, 100 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: forensic equipment. So you know, this is a common trope 101 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: that we're seeing and it's really more of the same. 102 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: If anything, what does entire scandal should do is catalyze 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: some sort of change because the police themselves, the ones 104 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: who are actually procuring their equipment, cannot find themselves arrested 105 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: in the dock for procurement fraud. You know, the irony 106 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: of that is at least not lost on me. 107 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: And I One thing I'd like to see, and I'd 108 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: like to see it immediately, and whether it's done by 109 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: the police minister, whether it's done by the President. I 110 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: would like to see Fanny Massimola relieved of duties immediately. 111 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: Preventive suspension statement that says does not mean that we 112 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: think him guilty because blah blah blah blah, presumption of 113 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: innocence is on. But how can somebody you know, So 114 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: we've got Funny Massimolo, we've got Shadwick Sabi, and we've 115 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: got Changelam Gwanazi, and we've got all these generals accusing 116 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: each other of wrongdoing, and here is an actual criminal 117 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: case pending against the top cop. And how can he 118 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: be allowed to go back into his office tomorrow? 119 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 2: Jeff, Well, that's the question, John, And you know we've 120 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: your little Prissie was perfect because you both you and 121 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: I have seen this movie before you even have the 122 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: wording of the statement down that falls to the president 123 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: and now to the sitting police minister. But it really 124 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: is a pretty damning indictment on the probity of the 125 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: SAPs at large. 126 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: Jeff Wex, I'm sure there will be more from him 127 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: and the people he works with in the News twenty 128 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: four investigative team. Jeff, thank you very very much for 129 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: talking to us.