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Speaker 1: Lunch with Pippa Hudson on Kpe Talk. Join the conversation.

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Speaker 2: It's time for health and wellness, and today we want

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Speaker 2: to focus on gut health as we contemplate how our

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Speaker 2: gastro intestinal system impacts virtually every other aspect of our

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Speaker 2: overall health and well being. It is something that's become

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Speaker 2: very much a talking point of late. I think increasingly

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Speaker 2: in the last couple of years, we've been hearing comments

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Speaker 2: like the gut is the second brain, and that the

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Speaker 2: gut brain access is the fundamental thing to look to

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Speaker 2: in health.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to talk a little bit today.

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Speaker 2: About why that is and why our knowledge is expanding

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Speaker 2: so much, and what we need to know about improving

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Speaker 2: the performance of this vital system. And we are using

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Speaker 2: as our jumping off point a newly published book which

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Speaker 2: delves into this subject and is full of advice not

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Speaker 2: only on how the gut works and why its health

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Speaker 2: is so important, but also packed with tips on how

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Speaker 2: to make changes in our own diet and lifestyle to

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Speaker 2: improve our gut health. So it's recipe book, part health guide,

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Speaker 2: and excuse me, it's called Gut Health the South African Guide,

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Speaker 2: published by Human and Rissau and with me in studio

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Speaker 2: is co author Vicky Debier, who is an award winning

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Speaker 2: food writer with a real passion for highlighting the links

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Speaker 2: between diet and health and Chatto before. I think it

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Speaker 2: was about diabetic health last time. But Vicky, it's wonderful

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Speaker 2: to have you back with us again to talk about

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Speaker 2: gut health.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to you, Thank you, Papa, it's lovely to be here.

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Speaker 2: And then joining us by a zoom this afternoon, doctor

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Speaker 2: Stephen Schmidt, who is the co author of the book,

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Speaker 2: a registered gastro enterologist who also has a real passion

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Speaker 2: for the subject of helping people heal their gut microbiome.

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Speaker 2: And if you don't know what that is, don't worry

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Speaker 2: because hopefully by the end of this interview you will

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Speaker 2: understand better.

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Speaker 3: Stephen, it's wonderful to have you with us as well.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Papa, thank you very much, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: having me.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge pleasure. Let's start with you, Steven. That

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Speaker 2: concept of the gut microbiome might well be a foreign

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Speaker 2: one to listeners today who've never heard the term before.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain what it means and why it's so

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Speaker 2: important to our overall health.

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Speaker 4: Sure, So the gut microbome, the actual word biome refers

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Speaker 4: to the genetics of microbiota. So you we have a

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Speaker 4: host of micro organism that are resident in certain parts

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Speaker 4: of our body, specifically and more prevalently in the colon.

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Speaker 4: So ninety eight percent of bacteria and other organisms are

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Speaker 4: resident in our in our gut, and their collective genetic ability,

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Speaker 4: which is about one hundred and five one hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty fold our own genetic makeup, is what regulates and

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Speaker 4: plays a huge.

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Speaker 1: Influence in our health.

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Speaker 4: The biome is in the colon and it interacts in

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Speaker 4: a sort of symbiotic way with our bodies.

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Speaker 1: So I always say to people that the gut is.

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Speaker 4: Really the portal or the gateway between the outside world

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Speaker 4: and our bodies.

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Speaker 1: And a large part of.

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Speaker 4: That is the actual bacteria, specifically in the biome that

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Speaker 4: controls a lot of things. It digests food that we

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Speaker 4: eat and makes nutrients, It makes vitamins, it makes neurotransmitters,

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Speaker 4: it makes even antibiotic carve substances and GLP and things

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Speaker 4: like that, and it feeds us and it fuels us,

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Speaker 4: and it even controls our mood.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so the simple thing of of what you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people think of food and digestive food

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Speaker 2: is so simply that you put in the food, it

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Speaker 2: gets digested and it creates.

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Speaker 3: The nutrients you need.

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Speaker 2: What you're saying here is much much more complex than

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Speaker 2: just fueling the body with energy that in fact, there

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Speaker 2: are all kinds of other bodily systems and processes that

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Speaker 2: are impacted by that process.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's clear.

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Speaker 4: I'd like to I like to say to people that

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Speaker 4: when you consume and eat, you feed theedual feeding system.

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Speaker 4: You feed yourself with proteins and fats and certain simple

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Speaker 4: sugars which you absorb in your small valve to fuel

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Speaker 4: you and to nourissue. But then a large part that

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Speaker 4: we cannot digest, especially the complex carbohydrates and the fibers.

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Speaker 1: They travel through to the colon.

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Speaker 4: The bacteria in the colon ferments and digests these these

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Speaker 4: complex carbo hydrates, which are basically long sugars that we

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Speaker 4: cannot break down, and then makes beautiful nutrients from it.

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Speaker 4: Specifically a thing called a butyrate, which is a short

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Speaker 4: chain fatty acid that is a huge fuel to specifically

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Speaker 4: the colon and other parts of the body as well,

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Speaker 4: and then of course the other things I mentioned. So

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Speaker 4: there's a there's a there's a massive interaction. It fuels

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Speaker 4: and it feeds, and it also controls our immunity, sort

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Speaker 4: of tempers our immunity, allows it to work well, but

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Speaker 4: stops it from overreacting. And then of course there's this

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Speaker 4: huge thing called the gut brain axis, where there is

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Speaker 4: a direct link between your colon and the bacteria, and

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Speaker 4: your colon and your brain, specifically your brain stem through

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Speaker 4: large nervous systems. One of those examples is a vagus nerve,

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Speaker 4: and there's a fascinating bidirectional action between what happens to

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Speaker 4: the brain and how it affects the biome and vice versa,

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Speaker 4: involved in health, good mood, and of course conversely disease

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Speaker 4: like Parkinson's and other neurodegenerative diseases and depression.

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Speaker 1: So the gut brain axis is a huge part of.

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Speaker 2: This Stephen, Now, I mean we have to really sort

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Speaker 2: of skip over and summarize a huge amount of information

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Speaker 2: that's so important today. So forgive me if I jump

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Speaker 2: ahead a little bit. But when we talk about gut health,

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Speaker 2: you talk about the balance of these bacteria and all

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Speaker 2: these micro organisms living within our gut and keeping them

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Speaker 2: in balance, balance for optimen functioning.

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Speaker 3: But we know that they're not.

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Speaker 2: All good bacteria, and that if they go out of balance,

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Speaker 2: the repercussions can be physical symptoms that you know, and

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Speaker 2: often those symptoms are just treated symptomatically without ever getting

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Speaker 2: to the question of why did these things go out

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Speaker 2: of balance to cause those symptoms. Shall we talk a

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Speaker 2: little bit about what happens where to cause what you

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Speaker 2: refer to in the book as dysbiosis, when when things

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Speaker 2: stop working optimally in this system.

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Speaker 4: Sure, A good way of looking at this quickly is

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Speaker 4: to look at the gut microbome as an ecosystem, an ecosystem.

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Speaker 1: Like a forest, like a national park.

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Speaker 4: If things are balanced and in control, everything works well.

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Speaker 4: As soon as there's a disturbance to such an ecosystem,

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Speaker 4: like perhaps cutting off the tall trees in a forest,

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Speaker 4: things go wrong. The concept of good and bad bacteria

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Speaker 4: I'm not always comfortable with, but I get the meaning.

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Speaker 4: What you have is you have a very intricate balance

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Speaker 4: to I mean the groups of bacteria, functional groups of

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Speaker 4: bacteria that control each other and stays in a balanced ecosystem.

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Speaker 4: Things that can go wrong is poor food. We live

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Speaker 4: in a toxic environment. We really eat bad food with

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Speaker 4: lack of nutrition and toxins, pesticides and seed wells and

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Speaker 4: the like.

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Speaker 1: Hardcore known and proven in trial.

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Speaker 4: Factors that affects your microbome badly are especially the antibiotics.

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Speaker 4: Courses of antibiotics really can cause havoc to the gut.

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Speaker 4: And other proven medications that can do the same are

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Speaker 4: things like the acid controlling medications and nonsteroial anti inflammatory drugs.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a host of others.

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Speaker 4: So eating poorly, living poorly, smoking too much, drinking too much,

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Speaker 4: and then definitely some of the of the allopathic medications

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Speaker 4: plays a.

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Speaker 2: Ugual okay, So lots of factors that can send things

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Speaker 2: out of kilter. Now, the core aim of this book

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Speaker 2: is to talk to us about what we can do

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Speaker 2: to firstly try and prevent that happening in the first place,

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Speaker 2: but then also to talk about how do we repair

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Speaker 2: the damage done if we have seen everything falling out

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Speaker 2: of balance. And before I had of it to VICKI

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Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about practically what that looks

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Speaker 2: like in managing in a home kitchen, Stephen, what can

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Speaker 2: a patient do to work on protecting and improving the

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Speaker 2: functioning of that microbiome. You've already referenced some of the factors.

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Speaker 2: You can stop smoking, you can improve the quality of

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Speaker 2: the diet, you can avoid some of the drugs that

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Speaker 2: might aggravate things. But particularly from a dietary perspective, do

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Speaker 2: you want to give us sort of an overview of

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Speaker 2: what a healthy, microbiome friendly diet looks like in your view?

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Speaker 4: That's a loaded question because there's a lot of debate

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Speaker 4: and controversy around that. But I always say to people,

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Speaker 4: and I strongly believe, is that the avoidance of the

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Speaker 4: real poor foods, the chemicals and the process and the

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Speaker 4: ultra processed foods is.

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Speaker 1: Probably the one key.

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Speaker 4: You will find a lot of debate on whether you

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Speaker 4: should go or carnivore, whether you should go or vegan,

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Speaker 4: or that you should mix it. There's a lot of

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Speaker 4: debate about that, and there's so much intervariability amongst people

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Speaker 4: depending on what diet they do. So as a it's

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Speaker 4: a very controversial and a difficult subject. But what I

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Speaker 4: say to people, if you have any gut symptoms, if

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Speaker 4: you are aware of your gut with regards to things

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Speaker 4: like heartburn and bloating and stool changes and pain and discomfort.

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Speaker 4: You are probably what we call a loose term dysbiotic,

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Speaker 4: or an imbalance of that ecosystem. You should pay attention.

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Speaker 4: That is a sign that you should that you are

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Speaker 4: probably this biotic. And it's not only about cut symptoms.

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Speaker 4: These things go far further because if you break the

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Speaker 4: good relation between bacteria and the gut and you get

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Speaker 4: what we call a leaky gut, then of course you

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Speaker 4: have an entrance to that portal of toxins and bacteria

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Speaker 4: and all kinds of nasty stuff that can cause a

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Speaker 4: myriad of disease.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for that.

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Speaker 2: Please stay with us on the line, doctor Stephen Schmidt,

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Speaker 2: the co author of Gut Health, the South African Guide,

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Speaker 2: who's with us by a zoom this afternoon with me

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Speaker 2: in studio. His co author Vicky Debier, who we've spoken

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Speaker 2: to before on the show about several of her previous

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Speaker 2: I mean they are always more than cookbooks, VICKI. They

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Speaker 2: are our health guides as well as cookbooks. Where did

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Speaker 2: your fascination with this idea of how we eat to

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Speaker 2: support the gut microbiome start?

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Speaker 5: Well, Papa, you know my son was diagnosed with type

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Speaker 5: one diabetes many years ago, and we started living a

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Speaker 5: low carb lifestyle and I really was always in the

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Speaker 5: pursuit of being healthy and having a healthy family, and

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Speaker 5: through that my research just came up, you know, with

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Speaker 5: the next the next undiscovered part of our health was

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Speaker 5: definitely gut health. So I did more and more research

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Speaker 5: and started doing fermented foods and including that in our diets,

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Speaker 5: and then I found it challenging in the beginning. So yes,

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Speaker 5: that's where it all came from.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Now, obviously years of research and trial and error in

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Speaker 2: your own home kitchen has fed into the recipe component

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Speaker 2: of this book, and again we can't obviously talk through

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Speaker 2: all of it, but I wanted to just sort of

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Speaker 2: skirt through with you a couple of the core principles.

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Speaker 2: And what interested me is you've broken up the recipe

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Speaker 2: section into three sort of steps of remove, repair, and restore.

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Speaker 2: Stevens already touched on the remove idea, the concept of saying,

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Speaker 2: be much more mindful of what you're putting into your

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Speaker 2: body and do what you can to avoid the things

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Speaker 2: that are lessed with lots of chemicals, the highly processed foods.

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Speaker 2: What more can one do under the umbrella of remove.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I think something that we've not touched on is

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Speaker 5: just your gut lining, you know, the mucus layer inside

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Speaker 5: your guts. So it's not just about the bio, it's

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Speaker 5: also about this lining that gets damaged and that's where

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Speaker 5: you get leaky gut, the little holes that come in

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Speaker 5: and toxins that go through to your lymph system and

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Speaker 5: your blood system. So in the repair or the phase,

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Speaker 5: we want to also heal the gut lining, and that

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Speaker 5: we do through focusing on protein, the correct amino acids

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Speaker 5: that the the building blocks they and things like bone broth,

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Speaker 5: things like eggs that's nutrient and dense. So first you

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Speaker 5: just want to heal that gut lining, also stop this

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Speaker 5: whole process, and with that with cutting out all those

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Speaker 5: other foods that we talked about, and specifically sugar, which

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Speaker 5: we didn't mention. Now, sugar is also part of this

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Speaker 5: whole gut issue, can cause this piosis, and things like gluten,

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Speaker 5: those things emulsifiers in processed foods. Cutting those out you

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Speaker 5: need to first just calm the gut down, and that

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Speaker 5: that you can do through going on a clean protein

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Speaker 5: diet full of things like bone that contains gelatine, glutamine, collagen,

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Speaker 5: things that heel.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you go through that healing and repairing phase

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Speaker 2: and then you get to the restoring and VICKI, I

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Speaker 2: mean this book leads us towards categories of things you've

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Speaker 2: touched on and mentioned. They're like fermented foods, for example.

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Speaker 2: But it also I mean, it's full of just delicious

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Speaker 2: looking recipes for for good food, wholesome food made from scratch,

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Speaker 2: not relying on a lot of store bought, long shelf

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Speaker 2: life kind of things, but really going back to basics.

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Speaker 2: And you always open a health related cookbook and you

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Speaker 2: wait to see the list of ingredients that's fifty ingredients long,

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Speaker 2: and thirty of them have got to be bought in

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Speaker 2: a specialist store at great expense.

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Speaker 3: This is not one of those books.

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Speaker 2: These are the kinds of ingredients you used to seeing

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Speaker 2: and the kinds of dishes you used to seeing. So

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Speaker 2: there is chicken liver patter, there is chocolate ice cream.

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Speaker 2: They're lovely lamb cofters. There's food that you want to

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Speaker 2: eat that's not going to feel like deprivation. But what

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Speaker 2: are some of the tweaks that need to be made

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Speaker 2: to sort of adjust your thinking as you move towards

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Speaker 2: this kind of eating.

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Speaker 5: So I think it is focusing on the protein and

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Speaker 5: the first that, like we said, then including the vegetables

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Speaker 5: that contain the fibers that we require. I think there's

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Speaker 5: a lot of confusion about the right kind of fiber.

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Speaker 5: We all here we have to eat fiberfore our guts,

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Speaker 5: and then people eat whole wheed and nuts and seeds

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Speaker 5: and ancient grains and stuff like that, and that's not

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Speaker 5: what we require. We want the fibrous vegetables, things containing inuline,

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Speaker 5: things like onions, garlic, cabbage, asparagus. You will see the

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Speaker 5: typical vegetables are used in all the recipes. All of

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Speaker 5: them are guts, healthy that your microbiots are used to

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Speaker 5: ferment and create all these wonderful things that Stephen talked about,

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Speaker 5: the buturette and the things that you need. So very

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Speaker 5: specifically we focused on those plant materials, very specifically focused

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Speaker 5: on protein and then including fermented foods into your diet

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Speaker 5: and to learn how to do fermentation. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: an age old process that's always been part of the

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Speaker 5: human world, but somehow we've forgotten about it because now

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Speaker 5: we have processed foods. We have freezers, we have coal chains,

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Speaker 5: we have canning. We forgot to ferment, and that's actually

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Speaker 5: such an important integral part of our gut health.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And the good news is, if like me, you

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Speaker 2: cannot bear the taste of com butcher, there's a whole

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Speaker 2: chapter full of alternative fermented foods.

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Speaker 3: The pickles caught my eye.

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Speaker 2: I'm a huge pickle fan, so that's definitely one that

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Speaker 2: I look at and feel I can manage if you

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Speaker 2: want to move in this direction. So a whole section

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Speaker 2: at the back of the book full of these suggestions

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Speaker 2: on walking through those steps of the calming down first

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Speaker 2: and dealing with any out of balance problems, and then

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Speaker 2: how to maintain that gut health going forward. And VICKI

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Speaker 2: really have some really tasty looking recipes. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 2: to trying, Stephen. Somebody asking whether it's ever too late

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Speaker 2: to adopt this approach to gut health because they've heard

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Speaker 2: that the human gut bicro biome is unique to each individual,

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Speaker 2: something like a fingerprint is the phrase they've used. And

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Speaker 2: if that is the case, can you really change it?

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Speaker 2: Is the question is it ever to later start or

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Speaker 2: are you born with a certain sort of micro microbi

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Speaker 2: or footprint that is yours forever.

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Speaker 4: I have an attitude of it's never too late to

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Speaker 4: do anything about your health. So absolutely never too late.

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Speaker 4: The gut biome is very malieable and can be changed

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Speaker 4: on a dime. What is true is that the way

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Speaker 4: you were born and the way you were raised, like

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Speaker 4: breastfeeding and exposure to nature and animals and an end

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Speaker 4: does appear to establish a core, a core which can

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Speaker 4: be really strong or a core that can be weak

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Speaker 4: or poor. So the core that you establish is likely

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Speaker 4: will determine later in life how easily you can manipulate

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Speaker 4: and fix. But from experience, if you take people that

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Speaker 4: are on dire circumstances with really bad illnesses and you

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Speaker 4: go through this process that we have gone through, including

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Speaker 4: a Vicki's plan or our plan, you physically can take

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Speaker 4: people with serious gut problems off allopathic medication and maintain

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Speaker 4: them on diets.

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Speaker 1: So it's never too late.

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Speaker 4: The gut is too important, it's too powerful, and thank god,

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Speaker 4: it is malleable and changeable.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we have to leave it there. Sorry that we

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Speaker 2: can't delve deeper into the specific dietary issues. I have

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Speaker 2: got people asking about carnival diets and vegetarian diets and

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Speaker 2: how they fit in. We don't have time to go

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Speaker 2: in that level of death to damn afraid, but I

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Speaker 2: would recommend you you try and get hold of a

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Speaker 2: copy of the book to read for yourself the approaches

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Speaker 2: to what you're asking about, Stephen. If we were to

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Speaker 2: leave our listeners with one core message about doing what

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Speaker 2: they can to best support the health of the gut

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Speaker 2: and the gut microbiome, you know, if people make just

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Speaker 2: one change away from this interview today, what would you

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Speaker 2: want it to be?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 4: One change? I think people have to understand we live

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Speaker 4: in a toxic world. We're exposed to all kinds of toxins.

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Speaker 4: You have to realize and understand that appalls. Can it

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Speaker 4: change these symptoms and problems. You have to become aware

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Speaker 4: and act on your awareness. And a very good place

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Speaker 4: to start, and I'm punting the book now, but a

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Speaker 4: very good place to start is to start with a

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Speaker 4: building block like information, like books like podcasts to learn

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Speaker 4: the process. If I personally had to say remove one thing,

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Speaker 4: I would remove sugar stroke fructose from our diet.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Stephens, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I really wish we'd had another two hours

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Speaker 2: with you to go deeper into what is an absolutely

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Speaker 2: fascinating topic and the latest developments in how medical science

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Speaker 2: is dealing with approaches to the gut biome. I wish

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Speaker 2: we'd had time to talk about the leaps in fecal transplants,

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Speaker 2: for example, which is another fascinating subject all of its own.

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Speaker 2: But we really appreciate your time this afternoon in a

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Speaker 2: very busy schedule. I know, doctor Stephen Schmidt, thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for joining us by a zoom this afternoon.

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Speaker 1: It's a pleasure, and thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: It's a huge pleasure, and VICKI to you as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've skirted very very briefly over what is

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Speaker 2: a very information dense couple of chapters on practically adopting

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Speaker 2: these principles in your home kitchen. If I were to

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Speaker 2: ask you the same question, one change that you would

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Speaker 2: encourage everybody to to at least explore what would you

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Speaker 2: like them to just.

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Speaker 5: Start cooking again, make your own food. Just cook your

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Speaker 5: own food, start, start from scratch. Chop a onion, chop

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Speaker 5: the garlic. Know what goes into your food.

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Speaker 2: VICKI, thanks for helping us do that and so practically

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Speaker 2: and approachably as well. Gut Health the South African Guide

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Speaker 2: is the name of the book the co authors, Vicky

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Speaker 2: Debier and doctor Stephen Schmid. It includes that section of

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Speaker 2: eighty recipes for gut healing and fermented foods that if

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Speaker 2: you'd like to explore, we'd love to encourage you to

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Speaker 2: try the mark. So for those who are asking, it's

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Speaker 2: on shelf now. It's called Gut Health the South African Guide.

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Speaker 2: I'm delighted to say the publishers have given us a

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Speaker 2: copy to give away to one of our audience today.

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Speaker 2: So if you have enjoyed this conversation I would like

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Speaker 2: to read more deeply on it, we'd love to gift

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Speaker 2: you a copy. Just send a what's up to seven

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Speaker 2: two five six, seven one five sixty seven with your

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Speaker 2: name and the words gut Health, and the first person

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Speaker 2: to send that through will receive a copy. Vicky, lovely

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Speaker 2: to have you with us and thanks for fitting us

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Speaker 2: in during I know, a very whirlwound visit back to

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Speaker 2: South Africa.

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Speaker 3: Really real pleasure to chat to you today.

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Speaker 5: Thankive it, Thank you