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Speaker 1: Views and News with Saskia falcon In for Clarence Ford.

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Speaker 2: We all have a voice.

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Speaker 1: Use yours called OTA one double four six, five, six seven,

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Speaker 1: join the conversation on KTOK and Yes, quite a landmark

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Speaker 1: for South African democracy is what they say when President

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Speaker 1: Sril Rama Porza makes those changes to the Public Services

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Speaker 1: Amendment Act. Now President so Ramaposa officially signed the Public

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Speaker 1: Services Amendment Act twenty twenty five into law on the

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Speaker 1: twenty sixth of March, with the Act published in the

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Speaker 1: Government Gazette on the first of April. This legislation represents

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Speaker 1: one of the most significant overhauls of South African government

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Speaker 1: administration since nineteen ninety four, and specifically designed to professionalize

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Speaker 1: the public service and curb political interference on the line.

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Speaker 1: We have analyst Ivor Chipkin who's going to help us

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Speaker 1: unpack this. Good morning, Ivor.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Sasca.

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Speaker 1: I think you've got to take it back to basics

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Speaker 1: for us, first and foremost, what exactly does the Public

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Speaker 1: Service Amendment Act do?

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Speaker 2: Well? It becomes a little bit more realistic or understandable

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Speaker 2: in the Western Cape because some of the things which

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Speaker 2: the Actor is going to do nationally is has been

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Speaker 2: what's happening in the Western Cape now for for some time,

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Speaker 2: if not, if not formally what the actor what we

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Speaker 2: currently have a sitchu of what we had till a

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Speaker 2: feud until the day before April Fool's Day. Actually the

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Speaker 2: law was passed, camp was gazetted, as you say, on

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Speaker 2: the first of April. But it's no joke. Prior to

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Speaker 2: that we had a situation where not by not by

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Speaker 2: culture of a political party or tendency is in a

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Speaker 2: political party, but by the actual law of Since nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety four Public Service Act, the political executive which was

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Speaker 2: another name for either the president or a national cabinet

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Speaker 2: minister or a provincial minister, had extraordinary powers over the

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Speaker 2: public administration in South Africa in two respects. One is

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Speaker 2: that they had powers over recruitment, so all public servants

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Speaker 2: in South Africa were effectively recruited through a political process

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Speaker 2: or process controlled by by a senior politician, extraordinary by

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Speaker 2: international standards. The second powers they had by virtue of

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Speaker 2: the Public Service Act was that they had authority over

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Speaker 2: the operational decisions inside departments, hr decisions the organization of

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Speaker 2: the department, even questions of it, what computer systems were used,

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Speaker 2: et cetera within departments. These were not administrative matters. These

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Speaker 2: these are rather the discretion of the politician. So these

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Speaker 2: are extraordinary powers over the administrative operational aspects of government,

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Speaker 2: held held in politicians hands. What the Public Service Amendment

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Speaker 2: Act of twenty twenty five does is it takes those

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Speaker 2: powers away from the politicians and it gives them appropriately

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Speaker 2: to the administrators, in other words, to director generals and

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Speaker 2: heads of department. So we have a situation now which

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Speaker 2: I think is really really very positive. The director generals

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Speaker 2: and heads of department no longer have to beg their ministers,

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Speaker 2: whether it's an NEC or a capital minister or the president,

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Speaker 2: don't have to beg them for their powers in order

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Speaker 2: to do their basic jobs. They have those powers, but

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Speaker 2: from the day one of the jobs.

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Speaker 1: How do you think that's going to affect accountability in

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Speaker 1: the public service?

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Speaker 2: Oh, you put your finger something very important. We need

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Speaker 2: to be very careful and not going too far in

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Speaker 2: the other direction. So we've had a highly politicized public

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Speaker 2: administration for the last thirty years. We now don't want

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Speaker 2: to create a situation where they become so autonomous that

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Speaker 2: we can't get them to do what they're supposed to do.

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Speaker 2: So we're busy working on any side. Organization that I

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Speaker 2: run South Institute has been is working on an accountability

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Speaker 2: framework which will be published, which will be published soon.

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Speaker 2: We're working on a white paper and the appointment of

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Speaker 2: Director generals. And we have been big supporters that we

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Speaker 2: have Intellectually, I think we have developed ACT and then

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Speaker 2: we've played a big role in getting it through getting

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Speaker 2: through the parliamentary system. So big supporters of it, but

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Speaker 2: also very aware of the dangers of executive what you

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Speaker 2: put your finger on, of going too far in the

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Speaker 2: other direction.

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Speaker 1: I also see that senior public servants, specifically department heads

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Speaker 1: and their direct reports and our bard from holding political

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Speaker 1: office within any political party. So there's truly this I

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Speaker 1: suppose separation between political and administrative. You sound very positive

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Speaker 1: at the risk of being overly optimistic. Does this actual

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Speaker 1: then separate politics from administration and clear those ambiguous boundaries.

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Speaker 2: Well, what we've had for a long time now, especially

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Speaker 2: during the period of state capture, was the ability of

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Speaker 2: political parties to deploy their candidates into senior positions and administrations,

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Speaker 2: and into senior positions on the boards of state companies,

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Speaker 2: and many of those deployees were also simultaneously officers of

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Speaker 2: the political party in otherwise they held political office in

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Speaker 2: US in those parties. So that situation is now is

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Speaker 2: now illegal, is now prohibited. And I think these are

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Speaker 2: important steps because what we do want, we do want

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Speaker 2: a separation between political office and administrative office. And we

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Speaker 2: understand why the rather of elected politicians in the democracy

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Speaker 2: is to set policy, give the direction of policy, to

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Speaker 2: hold the whole government to account. That's their essential role

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Speaker 2: and the engine of which is their administration. His job

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Speaker 2: is to is to get on and implement those policies.

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Speaker 2: What we don't want is a situation if we've had

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Speaker 2: over the last thirty years where the politicians are simultaneously

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Speaker 2: the implementers. We've got that situation at local government level,

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Speaker 2: which is often produced, which produces regular, regular failures and

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Speaker 2: in our menstalities, and we've had that at provincial and

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Speaker 2: national and national level as well. So what the what

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Speaker 2: this act is trying to do. It's trying to better

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Speaker 2: distinguish between what the job of a politician is and

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Speaker 2: what the job of a public servant is. And I

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Speaker 2: think in this regard it's a it's a very important step.

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Speaker 2: You sound skeptical, and I think that's appropriate. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 2: had We've gone through a lot, We've gone through a lot,

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Speaker 2: We've been there some big changes and another big change. And

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Speaker 2: I think, but can I give you, Can I give

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Speaker 2: you why why I'm optimistic?

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Speaker 1: Yes, please tell me why you're optimist, sir, will.

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Speaker 2: If you read, if you take a historical put on

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Speaker 2: a historical hat on. If you read the descriptions of

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Speaker 2: the US, the United States public administration in the later

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Speaker 2: in the early twenties, for example, I mean, it sounds like,

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Speaker 2: you know, South Africa, we're complete amateurs. If you want

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Speaker 2: to understand what corruption sounded like or looked like. You know,

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Speaker 2: US administrations are just extraordinarily violent and corrupt on a

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Speaker 2: scale which which really makes us look amateurs. China as well.

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Speaker 2: It's it's just incredible scale of corruption. In the nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenties and then again after the Second World War, the

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Speaker 2: United States implements exactly the kinds of reforms that we're

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Speaker 2: implementing now in South Africa. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: the similarities is uncanny. The reforms are transformational. In the

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Speaker 2: US case, it's you know, to use the Trump expression.

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Speaker 2: It's really it's those reforms that really make America great,

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Speaker 2: and this is what Trump is busy undoing. It's the

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Speaker 2: same pattern across the world. The European recovery after the

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Speaker 2: Second World War, a lot of it is on the

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Speaker 2: back of the exact kind of reforms of South Africa

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Speaker 2: is implementing, beginning to professionalize public administration, begin to get

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Speaker 2: politicians off the back of public administrators. China, China set

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Speaker 2: the market in this regard. I mean, the idea of

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Speaker 2: relatively autonomous public administration comes from China. For Karama's worker Oud,

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Speaker 2: it's a long history that Asian tigers are all premised

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Speaker 2: on a separation of politics from an administration and the

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Speaker 2: professionalization the administration. Singapore, the great example which is often used,

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Speaker 2: does exactly what we're beginning to do in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: So this is the reason I do think to be optimistic.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think these it sounds very technical, it

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Speaker 2: sounds so dry, it sounds incredibly boring, but these are

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Speaker 2: the kinds of transformational reforms which turned things around.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look on paper, it sounds like this is

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Speaker 1: going to strengthen democratic governance. It sounds like it's going

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Speaker 1: to strengthen accountability and in a country like South Africa

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Speaker 1: where sure implementation is not maybe our strongest skill. You know,

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Speaker 1: is this actually going to improve service delivery to our citizens?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Because because what we look

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Speaker 1: at it as now is like it gets lost in

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Speaker 1: the corruption. There's just so much that So now we've

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Speaker 1: got a mechanism, we've got something that we can hold

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Speaker 1: people to account, but is it something that will translate

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Speaker 1: practically to better service delivery to some time?

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Speaker 2: I think you know your your caution is completely appropriate.

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Speaker 2: There's one. There are a couple of things that I

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Speaker 2: think our speak speak or reason to be optimistic. One

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Speaker 2: is that in a small to a small extent, the

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Speaker 2: legislation is its own implementation, because that as of today,

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Speaker 2: cabinet ministers, provincial ministers, the president no longer has certain

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Speaker 2: powers over the administration which they enjoyed for so long.

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Speaker 2: So that's already done. Those powers are removed from them

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Speaker 2: and existing public servants, director generals that others suddenly have

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Speaker 2: powers at their disposal, which which over the last over

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Speaker 2: the last thirty years, they've had to really fight for

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Speaker 2: and struggle to get. So they have those powers now

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Speaker 2: whether this crop of administrators can public servants can can

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Speaker 2: can use those powers effectively, well, that we don't know,

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Speaker 2: and in many cases that's going to be very, very

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Speaker 2: very uneven. But in the medium term and in the

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Speaker 2: long term, why I'm increasingly optimistic that what this is

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Speaker 2: going to begin to change the incentives that politicians are

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Speaker 2: going to want to encourage institutions to perform, to tract

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Speaker 2: an appoint good public servants because this is a really

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Speaker 2: big factor. The performance of government departments has become an

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Speaker 2: electoral issue. It wasn't that it wasn't an electoral issue

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Speaker 2: for the first for the first fifteen years of our democracy.

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Speaker 2: But from around twenty sixteen, what we're beginning to see

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Speaker 2: is that South Africans are beginning to evaluate whether they

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Speaker 2: support a party or not, sometimes based on its performance

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Speaker 2: in government, and increasingly so, and this is why we've

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Speaker 2: seen such a dramatic decline of the African National Congress

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Speaker 2: to twenty twenty four days of the election. So I

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Speaker 2: think South Africans are now increasingly using their vote partly

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Speaker 2: as a decision around whether they think it government is

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Speaker 2: performing in government. And I think, so what is with

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Speaker 2: the legislation plus with the changing political culture. I think

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Speaker 2: all of the spodes well for our future.

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Speaker 1: Ah, you're making them increasingly helpful. We're speaking to i've

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Speaker 1: Or Chipken, an analyst about the Public Service Amendment Act.

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Speaker 1: I want to say, how long do you think it'll

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Speaker 1: take before we start seeing the effects of this new legislation.

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Speaker 2: Tough question. I think it's going to be very, very uneven.

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Speaker 2: But I do think in those departments, of which there

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Speaker 2: are many, where there are they are, they are capable,

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Speaker 2: a capable people already in place. They suddenly have the

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Speaker 2: they suddenly have the legal resources to get on with

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Speaker 2: their jobs. That's, as I say constantly, persid of having

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Speaker 2: to beg the feet of the minister for the powers,

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Speaker 2: for the powers they need. I think they we're going

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Speaker 2: to start seeing quite quick movements. They'll be able to

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Speaker 2: operationalize their plans and get the get there, get their

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Speaker 2: acts together quite quickly. So where those places are are

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Speaker 2: not sure, but I think we're going to see it's

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Speaker 2: going to be very uneven, and we're going to very

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Speaker 2: quickly start seeing which departments are really really don't have

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Speaker 2: the institutional capacity and which departments do so. But it's

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Speaker 2: going to come back let's let's let's let's revisit that

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Speaker 2: question in six months time. But my bet is that

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Speaker 2: we're going to start seeing differences.

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Speaker 1: And then are they milestones or stages that that South

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Speaker 1: Africans should be you know, looking out for as the

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Speaker 1: act is rolled out? I mean you mentioned that it's

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Speaker 1: so miller in some cases to legislation that was implemented

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Speaker 1: in America, So you know, are these certain milestones that

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Speaker 1: we need to be watching for that need to support

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Speaker 1: the successful implementation of it. It's twenty one minutes after

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Speaker 1: eleven o'clock. It is Views and News with me saskm

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Speaker 1: in for Clarence Ford, and of course we're talking to

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Speaker 1: i've or Chipken about the Public Service Amendment Act. And yes,

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Speaker 1: it's really groundbreaking, a landmark for South African democracy. And

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Speaker 1: I was back now I do believe he's the director

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Speaker 1: of the New South Africa Institute. Those milestones. Are there

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Speaker 1: any milestones that we should be watching out for to

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Speaker 1: let us know, you know, these are the we're moving

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Speaker 1: in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think they are. One is we still haven't

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Speaker 2: quite figured out how to appoint Director generals, so the

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Speaker 2: legislation doesn't make that clear. So I think that that's

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Speaker 2: an important one, so hard enough to crack. How should

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Speaker 2: dgs be appointed? So I think when we see that

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Speaker 2: policy debates or resolution of that question, I think that's

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Speaker 2: an important Maleston and we've got We'll be releasing a

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Speaker 2: document in the next two weeks or so with some

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Speaker 2: suggestions about how to do that. Then the next step

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Speaker 2: would be thinking around how public servants more generally should

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Speaker 2: be should be recruited. There are there's been in place

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Speaker 2: for some time now, but not much not too much

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Speaker 2: movement on the implementation of it. What's called a professionalization framework,

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Speaker 2: which is which lays out a broader strategy around how

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Speaker 2: public servants in general should be appointed, where the National

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Speaker 2: School of Government should be should play a role. And

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Speaker 2: the other reform that passed into law on the first

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Speaker 2: of April was a piece of legislation which turns the

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Speaker 2: National School of Government into a government department. Whether that's

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Speaker 2: a good idea or bad idea, I'm undecided yet. But

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Speaker 2: nonetheless there are our whole lot of plans around better

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Speaker 2: training for public servants. I'm encouraged because part of that

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Speaker 2: part of the professionalization framework includes a minimum entrance exam

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Speaker 2: for public servants into the public service for the first time.

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Speaker 2: I think that would be a good move, although I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen the enough detail around it to fully comment,

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Speaker 2: but so I think there there, there, there's some There

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Speaker 2: are some key further developments which need to take place.

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Speaker 2: How do we appoint dgs, how do how do we

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Speaker 2: think about the training of public servants? Do we need

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Speaker 2: a minimum entrance exam? And then the point that you

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Speaker 2: raised out at the beginning of this conversation and accountability framework.

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Speaker 2: Now that we've given these guys some degree of autonomy,

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Speaker 2: how do we stop them from becoming independent? Iron iron

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Speaker 2: cage is what do they call them? How do we

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Speaker 2: make them accountable to our politicians make sure that they're

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Speaker 2: doing their doing what politicians want them to do. So

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Speaker 2: we're busy developing that that accountability framework. So I think

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Speaker 2: there are important what you called milestones as we can

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Speaker 2: evaluate and then of course what we need is to

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Speaker 2: see whether this is having concrete benefits inside departments. So

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Speaker 2: I think we need constant monitoring and evaluation of how

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Speaker 2: government departments are performing, and we're going to start We're

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Speaker 2: going to play a bigger role in that regard as well.

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Speaker 1: Sounds it sounds really good. It sounds good, it sounds

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Speaker 1: really big.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're also cynical into Africa over the last

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Speaker 2: long time, but this is this is genuinely something positive

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Speaker 2: and move so Africa in the right direction. I know

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Speaker 2: some of the major business leaders think are calling this

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Speaker 2: a groundbreaking development. I agree with them. I think they're there.

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Speaker 2: Their enthusiasm ministry regard is is worthwhile. I think we

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Speaker 2: can retain our skepticism but also be be optimistic. This

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Speaker 2: is something genuinely important.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask just one question about how it

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Speaker 1: might change the way political party is operate within government

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Speaker 1: because dynamics are going to shift now because politicians have

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Speaker 1: less operational power.

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Speaker 2: So fantastic question how much something which I've been working

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Speaker 2: on as well. My colleague who is also my wife,

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Speaker 2: Yellen n I V D E which and I have

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Speaker 2: written a paper called Elite Contestation. We published it in

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Speaker 2: the Journal of Southern African Studies and exam We look

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Speaker 2: at exactly exactly this dynamic and what we've argued in

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Speaker 2: that paper is that for the longest of time, because

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Speaker 2: of the Public Service Act, things like the Public Service Act,

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Speaker 2: the route to state resources has been through the political

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Speaker 2: party through the ruling party, in particular through the NC.

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Speaker 2: As the NC declines and as this legislation takes force,

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Speaker 2: so political parties will will not be so important as

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Speaker 2: in playing a gatekeeping role to state resources. And what

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Speaker 2: we're arguing is that that's going to change the shape

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Speaker 2: of on the form of elite competition in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: So I think that this is again a hugely, hugely

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Speaker 2: positive development for the part of political culture. If you

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Speaker 2: think about it, then in elsewhere, for example, your route

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Speaker 2: to state resources is not necessarily to the political party,

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Speaker 2: your roots, your routing to you rather sorry, you're rooting

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Speaker 2: to economic resources. You know, senior positions in government, senior

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Speaker 2: positions in the economy. Access to too large economic contracts,

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Speaker 2: for example, is very seldom through through through through a

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Speaker 2: political party or through or through government. In the US

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Speaker 2: and in Europe, for example, it's huge competition for access

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Speaker 2: to elite universities. That's usually your way into the into

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Speaker 2: the into into the elite. But in South Africa, your

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Speaker 2: way into the elite for for many people that's been

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Speaker 2: through the ruling party. And I think that dynamic potential

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Speaker 2: is going to start changing now.

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Speaker 1: Oh, such an important dynamic to shift. You've got one

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Speaker 1: voice note to listen to while you're still on the line.

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Speaker 1: I have all it's choice note.

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Speaker 3: Well, just vibits on this new legislation. It is so

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Speaker 3: obvious that it had to be this way from day one.

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Speaker 3: I cannot believe that it's taken the city years for

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Speaker 3: the penny to drop and one and how the original

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Speaker 3: masters of our democracy did not see it and influences

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Speaker 3: from day one. That's all under the bridge. I fully

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Speaker 3: view your guests. I am self domistic. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I ah there, someone agrees with you.

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Speaker 2: I've alla and I've won you other I'm doing well

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Speaker 2: you are this morning, I'm having a good day.

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Speaker 1: Why wasn't it like this from the get go?

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Speaker 2: It's a great question, and it's an important question. Not

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Speaker 2: because our policymakers and Nancy and II when they came

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Speaker 2: to power, this was under consideration. But remember that because

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Speaker 2: of some of the sunset causes, it drough the negotiats

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Speaker 2: of the settlement. The ANSI comes to power inheriting essentially

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Speaker 2: in a part of era public service, part of their

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Speaker 2: public service, keep their jobs and their pensions. Also, homeland officials,

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Speaker 2: the bunches, bureaucracies are kept in place and c for

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Speaker 2: good reason, I think at the time is deeply suspicious

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Speaker 2: of this, of this administration to implemented policies. So and

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Speaker 2: at the time Tawe Becky even worried that this public

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Speaker 2: the part of their public service, was going to be

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Speaker 2: a source of counter revolution, and yet they were stuck

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Speaker 2: with them. So they developed a workaround, and the workaround

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Speaker 2: was the Public Service Act, which gave them political control

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Speaker 2: over the administration. So that's that's the origin. The question

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Speaker 2: which which does arise is having this may have been

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Speaker 2: appropriate for the first couple of years of as South

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Speaker 2: Africa's democracy consolidated, but why wasn't this changed after that?

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Speaker 2: And the main reason, I think is that because the

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Speaker 2: ANC and our ruling party became very comfortable with this

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Speaker 2: situation because gave them lots of access to state resources.

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Speaker 2: So I've been working on this now for a while.

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Speaker 2: For too long, it's been the argument for sound The

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Speaker 2: Professor Macera Mulle has been working on this as well.

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Speaker 2: Colleagues that SAPAM have been working on this. So the

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Speaker 2: arguments have been there for a long time if we'd

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Speaker 2: make any arguments, but the arguments didn't didn't get traction

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Speaker 2: until very very recently.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to sit and watch and wait and

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Speaker 1: see and be very hopeful. I will thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for chatting to us this morning. That is, I've

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Speaker 1: Or Chipken, the director of the New South Africa Institute

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Speaker 1: of Course, chatting to us about understanding South Africa's newly

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Speaker 1: newly landmark change to the Public Service Amendment Act,