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Speaker 1: Now it's been ages since we featured a volume of

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Speaker 1: poetry in book clubs, so I'm really excited that we

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Speaker 1: had a gap today in which I can tell you

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Speaker 1: about a new collection called These Other Things We Have Lost.

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Speaker 1: It is the work of Janie Warman, who is a

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Speaker 1: South African born and educated writer who is these days

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Speaker 1: based in the UK and has been for a long time.

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Speaker 1: And she might be best known there as a financial journalist,

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Speaker 1: writing for titles like The Financial Times and The Guardian, etc.

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Speaker 1: But she has long harbored a love for and a

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Speaker 1: talent for writing poetry, and she's published her poems extensively

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Speaker 1: in magazines. She's even had her work included in a

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Speaker 1: famous South African textbook, which I think was my English textbook,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. And it's a real pleasure to

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Speaker 1: have Janis with us by a zoom this afternoon to

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Speaker 1: talk about the big step of releasing her debut poetry collection,

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Speaker 1: Janis Warman, It's called These Are the Things We Have Lost,

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Speaker 1: and it's a huge pleasure to have you joining us

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Speaker 1: on the show today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for your time, well, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: asking me. How wonderful to sit here in a slightly

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Speaker 2: gray English countryside and visualize Cape Town, which I presume

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Speaker 2: is warm and sunny. I might be wrong, but I

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Speaker 2: think the temperatures there have been pretty high recently, haven't they.

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Speaker 2: So yes, it's lovely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're a little on the bridge today, Jane's a

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Speaker 1: bit of cloud outside, not too stiflingly hot, but probably

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Speaker 1: as substantially more blue skies than you've got.

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Speaker 2: No, no, that's good. Yes. The other night I was

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Speaker 2: doing reading for the Red Willbarrow Poetrick Collective, and I

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Speaker 2: think it was in the forties there and here we

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Speaker 2: had a storm brewing, and that we had the wind

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Speaker 2: whipping the house. So it was a bit of a

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Speaker 2: game of contrast. But it's particularly good to be here

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Speaker 2: to discuss this with you, because actually poetry has been

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Speaker 2: kind of running right through my life from sort of

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Speaker 2: age six of my first very first publication in the

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Speaker 2: school magazine. But my dog got lost and got run

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Speaker 2: over but then survived, so it was a happy ending.

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Speaker 2: But even though I have spent most of my adult

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Speaker 2: life working as a journalist, largely financial journalist, sometimes a

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Speaker 2: political journalist. For example, I came back to South Africa

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Speaker 2: quite a few times, you know, covering I suppose the

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Speaker 2: change from you know, from I like to say, fascism

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Speaker 2: to democracy. Having grown up here and then writing about

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Speaker 2: some of the heroes of the struggle in this book

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Speaker 2: called Class of seventy nine, which with three people who

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Speaker 2: I was at the university with at Roads University studying journalism,

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Speaker 2: they did the brave thing. They stayed and fought, and

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Speaker 2: I'm afraid I was the one, along with my husband,

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Speaker 2: who left, but I wanted to do something to honor

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Speaker 2: what they did. And so there's a bit of a

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Speaker 2: theme running through the poetry. It did take me a

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Speaker 2: long time to get the book together.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, there's so much to pick up on

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Speaker 1: there because putting this book together through a lifetime of

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Speaker 1: poems written, and obviously that means they weren't written with

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Speaker 1: a sort of a cohesive theme or running thread central

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Speaker 1: to all of them. Thinking, you know, I must keep

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Speaker 1: on scene because this is going to be a collection

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Speaker 1: that gets published. You know, between the two hard covers,

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Speaker 1: how difficult or easy was it for you to group

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Speaker 1: together the poems you chose to include, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have discovered a beautiful and very poignant thread of

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Speaker 1: loss in some many different forms that was the sort

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Speaker 1: of running theme. Were you unwittingly going back to the

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Speaker 1: same sort of themes and content all along without realizing it?

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Speaker 2: I think I was really I mean these poems, I

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Speaker 2: mean written over quite a long period. Quite a lot

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Speaker 2: of them are pretty new, but there are others that

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Speaker 2: I wrote after twenty years ago, and I think the

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Speaker 2: theme emerged without me realizing it. And then when I

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Speaker 2: put the collection together, there was a poem called these

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Speaker 2: other Things We Have Lost, which is in fact about

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Speaker 2: my relationship with my father. And once I've written that

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Speaker 2: poem and I put the collection together, I thought that

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Speaker 2: is definitely the title, and then it began to be

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Speaker 2: pulled together around that. And then once see editor publishers

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Speaker 2: Volcanian at Flyer the Wall Press, who's who is really

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Speaker 2: amazing dynamic woman. She put together which she reordered some

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Speaker 2: of the poems, and then I saw what she done thought, yes,

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Speaker 2: that's exactly the order they should be in. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's really good to having someone else's eye on

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Speaker 2: your work. So no, I wasn't initially aware of that.

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Speaker 2: And then some of the endorsements I was lucky not

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Speaker 2: to get some endorsements from from some amazing poets, and

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Speaker 2: they rarely picked up on those themes of grief and loss.

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Speaker 2: Another theme is gender violence, which just emerged, you know,

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Speaker 2: by itself all the way along. I mean, it's something

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Speaker 2: i'd written about as a journalist, something i'm you know,

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Speaker 2: it's close to my heart, if you like. But it

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Speaker 2: was only once the collection was together that I realized

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Speaker 2: there was, in fact this overwhelmed kind of scene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or I mean you've picked up on. One of

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Speaker 1: the pieces which just stood out for me in this

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Speaker 1: collection is the one called this is the Poem in

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Speaker 1: which I Left You, which is the voice of a

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Speaker 1: victim of Jendebe's violence speaking and so so powerful. And

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Speaker 1: I read it and I thought, gosh, you know, it

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Speaker 1: feels like it had to be written by a woman

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Speaker 1: here in South Africa. But of course it's it's a

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Speaker 1: problem globally, not just here. We are just so confronted

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Speaker 1: with a day in and day out that it feels

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Speaker 1: like it's it's our personal challenge. I mean, a lot

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Speaker 1: of this work is informed by your life in South

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Speaker 1: Africa and by your experiences here, even though you have

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Speaker 1: been gone from South Africa for a long time, Janets,

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Speaker 1: how much and you know, even even down to poems

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Speaker 1: which speak to the loss of homeland and the loss

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Speaker 1: of connection to a place that you loved. How when

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Speaker 1: you look back and look sort of with a with

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Speaker 1: a with an outsider's I at the work you produce,

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Speaker 1: whether it's your young adult fiction, your nonfiction work, your poetry,

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Speaker 1: does that experience, that early experience of growing up in

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Speaker 1: a part South Africa just infuse itself into all of

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Speaker 1: your work, do you think at some level?

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Speaker 2: I think I think it does without my realizing it's

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Speaker 2: a lot of the time. For instance, when I began

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Speaker 2: to come back, which was you know, well, I was

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Speaker 2: out there on maternity lead from the Guardian with my son, Dominic,

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Speaker 2: who's now thirty six, and he, you know, a few

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Speaker 2: months after he was born, Mandela was released and then

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Speaker 2: I was I had this time off from work, so

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Speaker 2: I just thought her baby will travel went out there.

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Speaker 2: Then the local Guardian correspondent, Davee Beresford said, oh, please,

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Speaker 2: can you just do something on the budget for me.

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Speaker 2: It's the new budget for the Government of National Unity.

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Speaker 2: So basically, you know, I was sort of straight back

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Speaker 2: into it, even embarrass Dominic horribly, but I even eventually

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Speaker 2: although I'd hoped my mother and my husband could give

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Speaker 2: dominic just one bottle, they couldn't, So while I was

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Speaker 2: filing the copy, they just brought them to me. So

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Speaker 2: while filing copy, I was also rest feeling myself, so

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Speaker 2: I didn't really have much time off from work in

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Speaker 2: that sense. And you know, then a decade later I

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Speaker 2: was back for the elections and writing for the Observer

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Speaker 2: and for the you know, the Spectator and so on,

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Speaker 2: and I never it never leaves you. There is one

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Speaker 2: poem I quite recently called packing for England, and that

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Speaker 2: sort of brought that to me. I think there's I

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Speaker 2: think there is a there's sound of loss. You never

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Speaker 2: really goes away, and when you come back to the country,

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Speaker 2: as much as you might love it and stay connected

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Speaker 2: and feel politically interested, the country always moves on without you.

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Speaker 2: And that's really that's something that's life. Is a heartache

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Speaker 2: for me. But you know it's in a way that's

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Speaker 2: part of the creative process, isn't it. If you know

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Speaker 2: what I think someone said maybe Macnice or Ordon happiness

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Speaker 2: rights white. So if you're completely happy, you may not

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Speaker 2: have a writ anything, and you'll.

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Speaker 1: Have nothing to write about. I want to say, if

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Speaker 1: it makes you feel any better, I once sent out

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Speaker 1: a press release with my infant daughter balanced on my

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Speaker 1: knees breastfeeding at the same time, so you're not alone

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Speaker 1: in that one alone. I just want to say, for

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Speaker 1: anybody who's coming in midway to this conversation, book talk

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Speaker 1: today focusing on a volume of poetry which has just

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Speaker 1: been released, a debut collection. Although that's misleading because these

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Speaker 1: are poems that have been written over years and years

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Speaker 1: of work by Janie woman South African born, raised and educated,

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Speaker 1: but spending most of our adult life writing in the UK,

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Speaker 1: and Janis I asked if you would pick out a

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Speaker 1: poem to read for us today, and I'm with one

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Speaker 1: eye on the clock. I'm going to ask you to

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Speaker 1: do that before we run out of time. Which poem

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Speaker 1: did you select?

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Speaker 2: Well? I had thought very hard about reading this is

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Speaker 2: the poem in which I left you. Yeah, because you

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Speaker 2: know that goes to the heart of what of what

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Speaker 2: I write. But in fact, my sister who is the

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Speaker 2: one who encouraged me to write, to put the books

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Speaker 2: into you know, the poems into a book. So she

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Speaker 2: even got a handmade book for her fiftieth from me

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Speaker 2: because she asked for it, and she has suffered from

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Speaker 2: some brief But I need to ask if I can

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Speaker 2: swear on air or not, because otherwise I have another

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Speaker 2: poem in mind.

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Speaker 1: Can we bleep it out? I'm not we won't know

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Speaker 1: where it's coming. How severe is the swearing.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's the F word, shall we say? I tell

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Speaker 2: you what I think I might do is these are

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Speaker 2: many serious themes. And one of the other themes, of course, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: is my mother's dementia, which was heartbreaking in the end.

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Speaker 2: She didn't know my sister and I, But I think

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Speaker 2: what I prefer to remember her is as the really lovely,

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Speaker 2: rather funny, very brave and loving woman who just adored us.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm going to read I've made a list

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Speaker 2: of things for you to worry about.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you chose this one because it was

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Speaker 1: one of my favorites as well. And Genesis, my producer

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Speaker 1: is sternly telling me we cannot, we cannot invite swearing,

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Speaker 1: knowing that's coming. So I think probably a wiser decision

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Speaker 1: to go with that one over to you.

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Speaker 2: This is definitely a safer option. I've made a list

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Speaker 2: of things for you to worry about, says my mother,

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Speaker 2: and I listen and laugh and tell her that before

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Speaker 2: she rang, I was fine, Thanks very much, And somehow

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Speaker 2: it makes me love her more because she prays for us,

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Speaker 2: children and grandchildren every day and during all important appointments

200
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Speaker 2: and exams, always making allowance for the time difference, because

201
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Speaker 2: she knows none of us believe, but that doesn't stop

202
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Speaker 2: her from slipping us the odd slim volume of Christian

203
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Speaker 2: essays because some of the things she worries about are

204
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Speaker 2: really wild, but she is wise and knows us, and

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Speaker 2: six thousand miles are nothing to her. Because she makes

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Speaker 2: lists before she rings us, and despite taking all possible

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Speaker 2: care over timing, often the land line rings in the

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Speaker 2: middle of a crisis. A child has broken an arm

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Speaker 2: falling off the slide, the labrador has eaten eggs and

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Speaker 2: is allergic and must be rushed to the vet right now,

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Speaker 2: because she is always apologetic as if it is her fault,

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Speaker 2: when of course it isn't, because we know she will

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Speaker 2: go and pray for the child or the dog, making

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Speaker 2: a lance for the time difference. Because when I had

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Speaker 2: my son, she prayed for me for the twenty two

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Speaker 2: hours I was in labor, and she was the first

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Speaker 2: person my husband rang, but not before he stood over

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Speaker 2: my exhausted, shining face and our son in my arms,

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Speaker 2: and told me I must decide right now on a

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Speaker 2: name for my shortest as he had to wring her.

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Speaker 2: And because that is why he is Dominic and not

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Speaker 2: Benedict or Lucien after the painter, And because one day

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Speaker 2: he told me he rarely likes his name, And because

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Speaker 2: somehow I know that is down to her too.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's beautiful, Janus woman is the poet. And that

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Speaker 1: is a poem called I've made a list of things

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Speaker 1: for you to worry about. I mean, it speaks and

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Speaker 1: so many of our listeners are in this phase of life,

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Speaker 1: Janus of the Sandwich generation as we call them, that

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Speaker 1: we're not quite done parenting the children we have raised,

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Speaker 1: but we are also in that phase of having to

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Speaker 1: say goodbye to the people who raised us and to

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Speaker 1: be gentle with them through difficulties in their later years.

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Speaker 1: And that poem speaks straight into that space with such tenderness.

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Speaker 1: And I mean this is an example of the very

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Speaker 1: personal aspect of this volume of poems. Other poems speak

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Speaker 1: to the wider issues of loss, and Grief and trouble

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Speaker 1: in the world, and I you know it's it's it's varied,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful, it's thoughtful, it takes you into spaces that

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Speaker 1: make you think every single page. Janis's you've mentioned your

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Speaker 1: publisher is Fly on the Wall Press. Now that's a

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Speaker 1: British publisher. Where do South Africans get hold of a

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Speaker 1: copy of this collection if they'd like to read more?

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Speaker 2: Well, I have had look and I believe it's available

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Speaker 2: on Amazon in South Africa. But also there is another

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Speaker 2: there's another I think a locally based literature Fellah which

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Speaker 2: is it is available on but the name escapes me.

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Speaker 2: I've written that down before I rang you. But we're

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Speaker 2: considering a publisher and I is actually to try and

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Speaker 2: get some local distribution deal in South Africa. So we're

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Speaker 2: going to speak to a couple of publishers about that

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Speaker 2: and see if we can do that. Because there has

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Speaker 2: been a lot of interest in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Well, look, after we

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Speaker 1: finish this conversation, if you're able to track down the

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Speaker 1: name of the seller you couldn't think of, you're welcome

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Speaker 1: to mail me and I'll share that with the audience

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Speaker 1: a little bit later in the show when the news

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Speaker 1: arrives in my mailbox, Janice. But in the meantime, Fly

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Speaker 1: on Thewallpress dot co dot uk is the publisher's website.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like to go and find the page for

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Speaker 1: this collection and read up more about it. It's called

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Speaker 1: These Are the Things We Have Lost and the poet

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Speaker 1: we've been speaking to, Janie Woman. A great pleasure to

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Speaker 1: have you with us. Congratulations on finally giving birth to

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Speaker 1: your poetry baby, and please tell your sister that we're

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Speaker 1: so grateful she encouraged you to do so. She's definitely

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Speaker 1: earned the dedication on the front page of the book.

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Speaker 2: Great thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Great pleasure, love us. Thank you so much, joining us

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Speaker 1: by zoom from the UK. Janus Woman