1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Cabinets today releasing a new National rail master Plan document 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: rarely that's supposed to guide how the railway system will 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: develop and grow over the next few years. Professor and 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Havanachaz a professor of logistics at Sidebosch University and director 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: of the Game Group. Thanks for your time. I do 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: appreciate it. So if this plan is followed, if it's 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: implemented properly, how would our rail network change. What are 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: the major features that we would see over the next 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: few years, I presume over the longer term. 10 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: Really, thank you for the invite. I really appreciate that. 11 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: It's very interesting. I think the first thing I want 12 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: to say about this, and I listened to your comment 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: about the correlation, which I so much think can understand, 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: but this is the this is the right thing to 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: do because what we had up there now so we 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 2: had a railway at a part of the business. Businesses 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: on the stress and then you make decisions that is 18 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: good for the business. You know, if you have limited 19 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: money to invest, limited way in which you can move, 20 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: you would go to your co line and your iron 21 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: our line, and the things that the country is really 22 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: neat in terms of development does not get done but 23 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: we have here, this is a real plan to use 24 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: their ow way as a development too, in the correct way. 25 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: And I think what it will see we will see 26 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 2: most importantly and this is and I'm also glad I 27 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: saw in the press announcement the Minister refer to the 28 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: rail bowl. Now, the Roads Act did a lot fast. 29 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: It's a meant that government's institutional road to give us 30 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: roads good roads. And if you think about why our 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: logistics work well on the road side and we have 32 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: the best best trucking operation of all our brigs peers 33 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: the reason why it works well because some rods us 34 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: with roads and we have private sector trucks. What we 35 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: have now is that the Minister's made a lot of 36 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: effort in making sure that we arrange private sector access 37 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: to the rail as we know, but we now need 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: you need to get that overord fixed and in order 39 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: to do that, we need to have that's split in ownership. 40 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: The ownership of the railways must get out of Transnit. 41 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: We must go to I'm not saying that our plan 42 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: specifically says that, but I'm talking about the things that 43 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: it could adress, and the doll should address the railways, 44 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: the infrastructure of the railways should go to the BOT 45 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: as an agency in the same way as that some 46 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: rollers there. Then the government can do what the government 47 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: should do, and private sector rail operators, including Transmit, can 48 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: do what transmitor is supposed to do. And I think 49 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: this is a range of things in such a way 50 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: that we can make that possible. I think we'll probably 51 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: see a smaller network. We have a twenty thousand kilometer 52 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: network in South Africa. At least five thousands of twenty 53 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: thousand really is not useful anymore and should have been 54 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: rationalized long ago. So you will see a smaller network. 55 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 2: You know, core network that runs next to the national 56 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: road system that connect time major cities is what you 57 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: should concentrate on, that you should fix, and that is 58 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: where the big opportunity is. If you think about the 59 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 2: transmits or had a growth in the railway volumes, all 60 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: of those area volumes wasn't wasn't cool and iron ore 61 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: and manganese. There's been absolutely none along our national routes, 62 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: and that those systems has not being developed yet. The 63 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: ways in which they do it has not been developed yet. 64 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 2: The shock of the current diesel price fuel price hight 65 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: that we're going to see now could have been a 66 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: released minimise by fifty percent on the threat logistic side. 67 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: If we had a railway, that MOTI way should so 68 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: so for sustainability reasons, for resilient reasons. We now need 69 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: to develop a railway which is not a company railway, 70 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: but it's a national railway. As far as the infrastructures concern, 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: this is not necessary. 72 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: So, I mean, I hear your argument. And government within 73 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: the transport sector, as you know better than almost anyone, 74 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: has gone quite far the sort of privatization route. Look 75 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: at Peer two and Durban things like that. Do you 76 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: think it still has the appetite to go as far 77 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: is your suggesting. I mean, it is quite fat. 78 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: This is what I suggested. I'm not necessarily to say 79 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: that's in the plan at the same time. Now, and 80 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: now I'm going to be straight. I was at the 81 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 2: transport conference that the Minister's Transport conference that you arranged 82 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: two weeks ago. I took part in a panel discussion there. 83 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: But I also listen carefully what the economics reforms are. 84 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: I would call him of the presidency set at that conference, 85 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: and that does not really Dix and his views wasn't 86 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk on his pay are, but 87 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: his views wasn't that much different from what I'm saying now. 88 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: I think this is the direction that you probably need 89 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 2: to go to the government for me to think about how 90 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: it funds the core the infrastructure. Then I'm not talking 91 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: about the export lines, you know, the co line and 92 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: iron on line. They conveyer belts for some minds to 93 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: the see. They're not talking to the general logistics of 94 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 2: South Africa. They are just conveyed also some minds to 95 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: the sea. I think with one year to concession them 96 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: those minds, we have all the appetite in the world 97 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: that's necessary to make sure that those things work the 98 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 2: best they think. I think the call price recently went 99 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: up thirty percent. So for every million tons of coal 100 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: that we don't export currently, we we lose in a 101 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: region of two point two billion RAM. You know, there's 102 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: probably another fifteen million tons that could be experted. But 103 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: I'm talking about the general freight system, and I think 104 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: they I'm so glad year about the National master Plan. 105 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: I was glad to year about the bill. I'm actually 106 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: quite amazed about all the things this monissaries are getting done. 107 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: You know, she's setting up that, she's setting up the regulator. 108 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: She made sure about private sector access. It got a 109 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: first network statement and then subsequent network statements published. She's 110 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: now working on her own master plans. She had released 111 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: the draft she you know, and and she's she's talking 112 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: about that elbow. Just getting a lot done and they're 113 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: all going in the right direction as far as an 114 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 2: economic reformance concept. So this is great, great news. 115 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: So when you make your rail network smaller, so you say, 116 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: for example, a five thousand kilometers of railway railroad that 117 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: you decide you're never going to use again. This might 118 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: sound like a silly question, but I can't get it 119 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: out of my head. That does that allow you? Obviously 120 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: it allows you to concentrate your resources on other areas. 121 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: But are you also able to use the track that's 122 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: being laid and use that as part of the network. 123 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: You're talking about running next to the national road. I mean, 124 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: obviously it would have to be refurbished, et cetera. But 125 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: would it help. 126 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: I think the track itself is that's not really I 127 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: think you're going to sell that this trap skills perhaps still, 128 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: but it's a careful process that goes around the rover 129 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: a lines that you don't find to use anymore, and 130 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: I know that the partner of transport is working on that. 131 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: For instance, you protect the right of way permanently, you 132 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: don't give it a way, you keep the keep that 133 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: In places like Europe and Britain they use those cycle 134 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: tracks and things like that. It's a careful process and 135 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: the way in which you do it. But mostly and 136 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: you're touching in a very sore point as sort of iconcern, 137 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: we're going to need a lot of steel because refurbishing 138 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: railway lines, we're going to need a lot of steel. 139 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: And I'm just sort of looking backwards into the supply 140 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: chain and started crying again about those steel mows and 141 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: what we are going to do about that. You know 142 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: that is that is that is that is quite a 143 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: sad story. But no, I don't think you're going to 144 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: use that and the other anyo railway in the world. 145 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: There is probably any countries because with you sort of 146 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: scrap metal, it's quite valuable. No wagon or a passenger 147 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: coach for something that you scrapt, just a railway coach. 148 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: There's one hundred thousand grands with of scrap metal. That 149 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: says there so Yeah, there's a lot of work, a 150 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: load of us. Right, we're going in the right direction. 151 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: That is great profession Havnacaz, thanks very much, indeed really 152 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: appreciate the professor of logistics at the University of Sembars 153 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: and director of the game group. And just to comment 154 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,559 Speaker 1: about cycle tracks where railways used to be a couple 155 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: of times in my life have been lucky enough and 156 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: I do cycle recreationally. Let me just speak clear, and 157 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: you'll bump into an area with the railroads. Happen to 158 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: be twice actually, and the great thing about them is 159 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: that you can ride alongside the railway because the train 160 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: can't go up steep hills and do you know what 161 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: neither can Stephen, It's seven o'clock 162 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: This