1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800
Speaker 1: Twelve minutes past four. Let's focus our attention now on

2
00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: the details contained in that report by the Independent Police

3
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: Investigative Directorate IPID is the name by which you perhaps

4
00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 1: know them better. They looked into the conduct of the

5
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 1: officers who were first charged with looking into the theft

6
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,080
Speaker 1: of money from the president's game from Pala Pala, and

7
00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: then the recovery of that money. Kyle Kahan joins US

8
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 1: now investigative journalist from News twenty four. They were instrumental

9
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 1: in getting this report released. Kyl, A very good afternoon

10
00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 1: to you, and welcome to the show. I want to

11
00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,920
Speaker 1: read this sentence from your report, which seems to me

12
00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,279
Speaker 1: to be absolutely critical. It's captured in the headline as

13
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,639
Speaker 1: well the sentence. First, the IPID report, which has been

14
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,160
Speaker 1: secret since it was completed in October twenty twenty three,

15
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,880
Speaker 1: has drawn President Rama Porsa closer to what looks like

16
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,960
Speaker 1: a major cover up to hide the president and subsequent

17
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 1: theft of at least ten million round in cash from

18
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 1: the president's farm. The dollar amount five hundred and eighty

19
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And speaking of the headline, I know journalists

20
00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 1: don't always write those, but it does seem to make

21
00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: the same point. Pala Pala explosive IPID report pools Rama

22
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,480
Speaker 1: Pauls are closer to farm theft cover up. You're saying

23
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 1: this report and its contents have serious political and possibly

24
00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,160
Speaker 1: legal implications for the president. Tell us why, good afternoon to.

25
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,520
Speaker 2: You Grussian John, and as always, thank you for having me. Yes,

26
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,680
Speaker 2: I think it's very important that we delve into the

27
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 2: detail of the IPEd report here a little bit. And

28
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 2: what's absolutely critical is that within ten days, nine or

29
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,400
Speaker 2: ten days of IMMANUELA. David, one of the burglary suspects,

30
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,720
Speaker 2: being arrested in Namibia, the President issues an instruction to

31
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 2: his Special Envoy and Special Advisor, doctor vajohnny Chuk to

32
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: travel to Namibia. This is in June of twenty twenty two.

33
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,720
Speaker 2: June of twenty twenty two, and at that point we

34
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,120
Speaker 2: were in COVID restrictions. In June of twenty twenty we

35
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to travel. And he's the ostensible reason for

36
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,080
Speaker 2: this trip is for doctor Chowki to pass on a

37
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,720
Speaker 2: message relating to the national security of South Africa, Namibia

38
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 2: and another country that we still don't know. And accompanying

39
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,880
Speaker 2: him on this trip is Major General Wallyrud at the

40
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,920
Speaker 2: head of the Presidential Protection Service, and they cross from

41
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 2: South Africa to the No Man's Land area just after

42
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,679
Speaker 2: Nakoor border post, and then they are taken by helicopter

43
00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 2: to Vntok where they meet the then President of Namibia

44
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 2: behind Hainkob and a discussion has had between doctor Chowke

45
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,520
Speaker 2: and the Namibian president and then they returned to the country.

46
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 2: Now what is absolutely critical is that not only did

47
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 2: the president instruct Bijohnny Chokie to go to Namibia to

48
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 2: pass on this message, he also instructed Major General Wallyruder

49
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,639
Speaker 2: to a company Dr Chakia. Now, if the official version

50
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,560
Speaker 2: is true and accurate that this was completely unrelated to

51
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,640
Speaker 2: the parlor parlor break it, which is what all of

52
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 2: these individuals have maintained, I find it highly coincidental that

53
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,079
Speaker 2: wally Ruder, and this is what the iPad report confirms.

54
00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,960
Speaker 2: This is what is so crucial. Wally Ruder was conducting

55
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,160
Speaker 2: an investigation into the burglary. He was hunting down those suspects.

56
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 3: EMANUELA.

57
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,480
Speaker 2: David was their number one suspect, and all of a

58
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,839
Speaker 2: sudden he's arrested in Namibia and both of these men

59
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 2: two of President Sama Paula's closest allies most important functionaries

60
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,800
Speaker 2: traveled to that country within days of the arrest.

61
00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 1: In the course of iPad's investigations. How was the president's

62
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 1: explanation for this conveyed to the iPad investigators. Did they

63
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,680
Speaker 1: speak to him and questioned him in the course of

64
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 1: their work or was this an explanation that was perhaps,

65
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,600
Speaker 1: you know, for example, provided through a lawyer.

66
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 2: No, so, as far as I can tell from this

67
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 2: very short IPID report it's only fourteen pages, they did

68
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 2: not actually directly interview the President or directly interview Major

69
00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 2: General Wally Rudder or for that matter, doctor Vajohnny Chouca,

70
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 2: from what I can gather, from what it says, they

71
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 2: picked up a whole lot of information from another investigation

72
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,600
Speaker 2: that was happening around the same time by the Public Protector,

73
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,280
Speaker 2: and it looks like the Public Protectors investigators shared a

74
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 2: lot of documents with them, including affi davids and submissions

75
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: that were made to the Public Protector. And it is

76
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,240
Speaker 2: my understanding that some of the IPEd investigators also sat

77
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,760
Speaker 2: in on the interviews that the Public Protector did with

78
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,320
Speaker 2: some of the SAP's officials.

79
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 1: Involved if if you were to line up what and

80
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 1: I asked that question for a reason because obviously you

81
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,280
Speaker 1: get an explanation, and then if you don't engage, as

82
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: we've seen, I'm not suggesting that the engagement should be

83
00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 1: as exhausting as we're seen at the Madlanga Commission, but

84
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,160
Speaker 1: it does seen that under questioning, layers do get peeled back.

85
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 3: Whether they get peeled back to your.

86
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: Advantage or disadvantages is not always given or known, but

87
00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,640
Speaker 1: it is an interesting process that that that that IPID

88
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 1: has has undergone. If you were to single out what

89
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 1: the most difficult questions the president might have to answer,

90
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,280
Speaker 1: Kyle Kohn would be what what?

91
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 3: What are those?

92
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 1: Because yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot, No, there's a.

93
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 2: Lot, you know, And I think that this is a

94
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 2: very complex sort of you know, series of events. There's

95
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 2: a lot of moving parts, and with the effusion of time,

96
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,480
Speaker 2: there have been a lot of different versions on the record.

97
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,479
Speaker 2: But you know, if I had the opportunity to perhaps

98
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 2: get the president under oath somewhere and ask him a question,

99
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,880
Speaker 2: I would stick to the simple things. When did you

100
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 2: find out about the money? Well? What did you do

101
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 2: about that? You know? Because we know in New three

102
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 2: four is reported in the past that the president knew

103
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,920
Speaker 2: about the money being at his farm for forty four

104
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,120
Speaker 2: days before it was stolen. I would ask him, you know,

105
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 2: directly about the so called security issue that couldn't be

106
00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,479
Speaker 2: discussed over a telephone and necessitated his special on boar

107
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,360
Speaker 2: traveling during COVID lockdowns to another country. If you stick

108
00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 2: to those simple process like stories, I think that is

109
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 2: where we would most often find the contradictions. And it's

110
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 2: those contradictions that we've repeatedly pointed out. I mean the

111
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,400
Speaker 2: simple fact that you know. In twenty twenty two, I

112
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,720
Speaker 2: was just looking at the story just now, my com

113
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 2: Jeff Wicks and I wrote a story about the fact

114
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,040
Speaker 2: that the burglary suspect that spent a lot more money

115
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 2: than what people were saying were stolen. It's simple sort

116
00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,040
Speaker 2: of process based questions like that. I think that are

117
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 2: the most important.

118
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 3: The word instructed.

119
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 1: You put in quotes, and I assume that's because well

120
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: the words before say, the report notes that President Rama

121
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,520
Speaker 1: pausa quote instructed Ruder to travel to No maybe with

122
00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 1: this political advisor, but Johnny Childcare is with whether you

123
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 1: accept the premise or not the fact that he was

124
00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: involved in directing Major General Ruder to go with Vagini Chauke.

125
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: Is that in and of itself problematic for you that

126
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,800
Speaker 1: he was more hands on involved in a process still

127
00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: under scrutiny than perhaps he may have indicated before.

128
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think I think that's that's critically important

129
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 2: because it shows that he that you know, that is

130
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 2: a central thrust of my article that I wrote today.

131
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 2: It shows that the President was not just a casual observer.

132
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 2: He didn't simply tell Major General Ruder about the breaking

133
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 2: at his farm and then forget about it. You know.

134
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 2: That is of course the president and his spokespeople will

135
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 2: argue with me and say, but no, but we've given

136
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,440
Speaker 2: you a version of events. But I think that without detail,

137
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 2: without real tangible information about what the supposed security threat

138
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 2: was that mister Chalker had to go to Nimba for

139
00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 2: and what it related to and why now for you later,

140
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 2: six years later, we can't speak about this at all.

141
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,160
Speaker 2: I think those you know, without that information, we are

142
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 2: left in a void where the automatic and only logical

143
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 2: explanation is that that trip was related to the Polo

144
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,360
Speaker 2: Parlot break in more specifically related to the arrest of

145
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 2: Emmanuel Eller David and the investigation being run by Major

146
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 2: General Ruder. And if the instruction from the President to

147
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 2: his head of security and to his Special Envoy was

148
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 2: go to Namibia and speak to the black president, then

149
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,319
Speaker 2: the security services there to make sure that this news

150
00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 2: doesn't reach, you know, back to South Africa and sort

151
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 2: of embarrass me or cause me, you know, great political problems.

152
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,200
Speaker 2: If that is true, then the President was involved in

153
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 2: a cover up. And that is the question that I

154
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 2: most burningly want answered. I really do need. You know,

155
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 2: South Africa I think deserves to understand what exactly happened

156
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,400
Speaker 2: with that trip to Namobia.

157
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,440
Speaker 1: Cayl Karen thank you his work on the story. You

158
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 1: can pick it up on the News twenty side News

159
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,160
Speaker 1: twenty four. Once the IPID report was declassified, then gained

160
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 1: access to it by filing a Promotion of Access to

161
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:14,679
Speaker 1: Information request with iPad. And these are the fruits of

162
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,960
Speaker 1: them getting the report firstly and going through it.

163
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:18,920
Speaker 3: Twenty two minutes past four