1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,199 Speaker 1: Lunch with Pippa Hudson on Cape Talk. Join the conversation. 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: I want to start by saying this. I know stories 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: of trauma and of loss are very commonplace in South Africa, 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Unfortunately so commonplace that I suspect all of us have become, 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: to some extent a little bit desensitized because of that. 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: The sheer volume of loss that we hear about day 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: in and day out, whether we are talking about violent 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: crime or road accidents, it's so large that the figures 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: sometimes become almost meaningless to us. But every now and 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: then a story comes along that puts a personal face 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: to loss, and that forces us to confront the reality 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: behind those figures and to look at what they mean 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: to the person and the family involved. And sometimes, as 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: in the case of this book we talk about today 15 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: to make you count your own blessings a little bit 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: more carefully. And the story we want to share with 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: you is one of those. And I'm doing this interview 18 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: not because we want to pick over the bones of 19 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: somebody's incredibly painful experience, because I want to share with 20 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: you how she found a way to live with it 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: and to move forward in life despite what she had 22 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: gone through with me and studio is the writer Dominique Olivier, 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: whose book has just hit the shelves called Lessons from Loss, 24 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: Life on the Other Side of Grief. It has been 25 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: published by Penguin Random House and it has literally just 26 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: got into all good bookstores and I think on take 27 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: a lot as well if you want to buy a 28 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: copy after you've listened to this interview. And the reason 29 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: this book exists is it's utterly devastating, but it just 30 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: holds the most remarkable insight into how to live with 31 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: profound grief and still keep going. Dominique, it's a real 32 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: pleasure to have you with us today, and I wish 33 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: we didn't have to have this conversation, but I suspect 34 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: your book is going to be hugely impactful for others 35 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: who have suffered profound loss. So thank you for writing it, 36 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: and thank you for having the courage to speak as 37 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: frankly about what you've been through as you've done. It's 38 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: a huge pleasure to have you with us. 39 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: Thank you, Papa, Thank you for that warm welcome and 40 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: good afternoon to your listeners as well. Just to echo 41 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: your sentiment there, I often feel when people speak to 42 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: me about the book that I almost have to apologize. 43 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that you had to read this, just 44 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: because I know it's not the lightest to read. It's 45 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: definitely not a lie on the beach over December holiday 46 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: I kind of read. 47 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: But it's such an important one and it's one that's 48 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: going to be relevant to so many people. Let's get 49 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: the most difficult part out the way. Dominique were twenty 50 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: nine years old when life as you knew it was 51 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: just ripped away from you. Tell us what life was 52 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: like leading up to that morning, before that day in 53 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: October twenty twenty two when everything changed. Where were you at, 54 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: what was going on in your life? 55 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: Sure? So I was self employed. I had started my 56 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: own business at the start of that year, which was 57 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and I had just had my second child, 58 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: my second daughter, Florence. My husband had resigned from his 59 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: job like two months before that to become a stay 60 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: at home dad. So our grand dream that he was 61 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: going to look off to the two girls while I 62 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 2: kind of built the business and carried us financially. And 63 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: for those eight weeks between him resigning from his job 64 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: and the accident that happened, I think we're probably some 65 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: of our happiest, happiest times as a family. 66 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you have that to remember that you 67 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: had that moment of almost perfect happiness, because so much 68 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: was taken away from you just in the blink of 69 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: an eye. Tell us about the phone call that that 70 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: changed everything. I know it must be so hard to 71 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: revisit that moment, but can you briefly tell us what 72 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: happened that day? 73 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: Sure? So my husband left the house on the morning 74 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: of Friday, the seventh of October with our toddler daughter, Felix. 75 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: She was two and a half years old at the time, 76 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: and they left for a morning spent on the beach 77 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: in FISHUK with my husband's parents. So you know, your 78 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: typical morning with Granny and Grandpa at the beach, ice cream, 79 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: you know, sand castles, the whole shebang. I stayed at 80 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: home to look after Florence, and I was finishing up 81 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: some work for a client and around midday I realized 82 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: it feels like they're late in returning. I remembered that 83 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: jenre that's my late husband. He had sent me a 84 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: message when he had left FISHUK, and I kind of 85 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: picked up my phone to go look for that message. 86 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: To see when it had come through, and I saw, oh, 87 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: actually this was quite some time ago, quite like much 88 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: longer ago than it would have taken them to get home. 89 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: And I then started trying to phone him to find 90 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: out where he was. I'd kind of run through the 91 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: scenarios of like, maybe he had stopped at the grocery 92 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: store on the way home, or maybe he needed to 93 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: stop next to the road with Felix, maybe she had 94 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: been crying in the car or something. And I kept 95 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: thinking about these scenarios as I phoned him, and I 96 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: would phone him and his phone would go to voicemail, 97 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: and I would phone him again, and his phone would 98 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: go to voicemail. And I described it in the book 99 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: as well, this kind of feeling of like the annoyance 100 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 2: of him not picking up his phone kind of steadily 101 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 2: giving way to this fear that something had actually gone wrong. 102 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: And it was at that moment, almost precisely that moment, 103 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: that there was a knock at my front door, and 104 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: when I opened it, it was two police officers telling. 105 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: You that there had been an accident and that, yes, 106 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: you tell us what happened next to here. 107 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 2: Yes, So they asked me, first of all, I thought 108 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 2: it was a strange question. They asked me if I 109 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: if I had a baby with me, And the reason 110 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: that they asked me that is because the our car 111 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: that they had retrieved had two car seats in it, 112 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 2: but only one child was found. So after they established 113 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: that the baby was safe with me, they just told 114 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 2: me I needed to get to the hospital as quickly 115 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: as possible, that my daughter had been in this accident. 116 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: And I kept saying, but where's my husband? What about 117 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: my husband? And they kept saying, don't worry about him, now, 118 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: get to the hospital. Yeah. So what had happened is 119 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: they had they had been on the on the road, 120 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: traveling on the M three, and a truck carrying bricks 121 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: had burst a front tire on the opposite side of 122 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: the road and just like lost control, acrossed the median 123 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: and struck their car head on. It was the only 124 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: car that was struck. As far as I know, all 125 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: reports indicate that Jarnre died on impact. Felix was still 126 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: in her car seat and some stranger picked her up, 127 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: put her in his car, and rushed her to the hospital. 128 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: So there you are, everything that is familiar to you 129 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: suddenly taken away from you in an instant. And I'm 130 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,119 Speaker 1: going to summarize here for the sake of not making 131 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: this too painful for you to recount, but Jendre was 132 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: gone in an instant. Felix, you got to hospital, but 133 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: she was injured beyond the possibility of sustained life. And 134 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: as you write in the book, Dominique woke up. You 135 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: woke up that morning as a married mother of two, 136 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: and you went to bed a twenty nine year old 137 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: widow and a single mother to a newborn baby. Everything 138 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: about your life had been turned upside down in that moment, 139 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of people facing that would have almost 140 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: shut down and stopped functioning. And I'm sure would have 141 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: understood if you had, But you had a newborn baby 142 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: in the house, Dominique, it wasn't really an option for you. 143 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: One of the most powerful things to read in this 144 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: book is the conflict you felt going through that process 145 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: of knowing I want to go to bed and never 146 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: wake up again. I want this not to be my life. 147 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: I not want to never have to face this reality again. 148 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: But I don't have the luxury of making that decision 149 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: because there is a newborn baby relying on me for everything, 150 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: even when it was on saying some days just going 151 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: through the motions of getting up and caring for that 152 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: newborn and looking after Florence. Take us back to that moment, 153 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: I mean, because you were grappling with really, really difficult 154 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: emotions and struggling to be the mother your baby needed 155 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: because of the loss of your other child and your husband. 156 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: Yes, so it was quite a strange switch, because I mean, 157 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: she was six weeks old on the day of the accident. 158 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: The six weeks prior to that were absolutely fine and normal. 159 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: I mean, she was, I want to say, an easy baby. 160 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: She was friendly, she wasn't very demanding. I loved her instantly, 161 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: as people do when they have their children, and then 162 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: it's almost like the accident happened, and the next day 163 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: I picked her up and she was like a stranger. 164 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: You know. I knew that she was my child and 165 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: I wanted to keep caring for her, but accessing those 166 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: maternal emotions were so difficult. It almost felt as if 167 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: I was struggling to find affection for her, which didn't 168 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: mean that I stopped caring for her. It just took 169 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: me quite a few weeks to get back to, you know, 170 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: doing more than what was necessary, like to smile and 171 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: to want to play with her and engage with her 172 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: on that level. But it did eventually happen, and today 173 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 2: she's three and a half years old. She's bubbly, She's 174 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: the light of my life. She's a wonderful little girl, 175 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: and I love her so much. 176 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: Dominique, I mean, you write in the book that there 177 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: were times you worried about whether you would be able 178 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: to be a mother to her. The phrase you used 179 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: that was I too broken by this loss to be 180 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: able to even raise her to the point that you 181 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: actually sat down and wrote letters to family members giving 182 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: them instructions on what you wanted for her future care. 183 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: What was it that stopped you from acting on those letters? 184 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 2: So I always say to people, you know, it would 185 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: be lovely if I could tell you a story of 186 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: some like perfect Hallmark movie moment, you know, like maybe 187 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 2: there was like a golden sunbeam coming through a window 188 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: and she smiled at me for the first time and 189 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: I like melted my cold heart and like we were 190 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: just bonded in an instant. But it wasn't quite that. 191 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: I think it was something about the routine of looking 192 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: after her her and needing to do the same things 193 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: over and over, feeding her, changing her, rocking her to 194 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: sleep again and again and again. That kind of almost 195 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 2: chipped away over time, this feeling of I want to say, 196 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: almost apathy towards her, which started turning into liking her, 197 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: which turned into loving her, and that warmer kind of 198 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: affection that I feel for her so easily. 199 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: Now we're in conversation with dominic Olifeir, whose book Lessons 200 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: from Loss Life on the Other Side of Grief is 201 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: just the most remarkable documenting of her own journey trying 202 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: to piece together a life again after the sudden loss 203 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: of her husband and older daughter in a car accident 204 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: in October twenty twenty two. You know that routine that 205 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: you've spoken about, the just the sort of almost mindless 206 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: need to get up. We do this, you know, we 207 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: feed a baby, we change an happy et cetera. You're 208 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: write in the book how valuable having something like that 209 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: to hold on to you can be, even if you 210 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: have to sort of deliberately create a routine or creates 211 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: something to do to keep you busy, to give you 212 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: a sense of purpose and a reason to give up 213 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: every day. It's one of the very interesting tips you 214 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: share in this book that I was saying, if you 215 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: haven't got because not everybody who's in this position is 216 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: going to have a newborn baby needing care. It's almost 217 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: like a case of fake it till you make it. 218 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: Dominique that finds something, even if it's a plant to 219 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: care for, that makes you get up each day. 220 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I invent a little term for it. Well, 221 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,239 Speaker 2: I mean, I hope I invented it. There's any psychologist 222 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: too differs from me, please feel free to leave us 223 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: a comment. But I came up with this term for 224 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: it called pseudo purpose, as in a fake purpose almost, 225 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: And I write about how pseudo purpose can be invented. 226 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: It can be something like I'm going to get a 227 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: goldfish and put it in a bowl and remember to 228 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: feed it every day. And I say that the whole 229 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: point of pseudo purpose is to keep you going long 230 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: enough that real purpose can find you. Because real purpose 231 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: is coming, you just don't know when. But until it 232 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: can find and you you kind of just need a 233 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: reason to get your legs out of bed, put your 234 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: feet on the floor, and get up and do the 235 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: things that you need to do, one after the other. 236 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: Streaming countrywide on Prime Media Class on DStv channel eight 237 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: eight five and across the city on five six seven AM. 238 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: Diving straight back into conversation with Dominique Olafir, who is 239 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: with me in studio and if you are just tuning 240 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: in and missed the beginning of this interview. Dominique is 241 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: the author of a new book called Lessons from Loss, 242 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: Life on the Other Side of Grief. The loss that 243 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: she suffered was unthinkable. It was the loss of her 244 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: husband and her two and a half year old daughter 245 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: in a freak motor accident in October twenty twenty two, 246 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: leaving her at the age of twenty nine a single 247 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: mom to a newborn baby. And, as David writes on 248 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: the WhatsApp line, sending so much love to Dominique, i 249 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: lost my dad a few months ago to cancer, and 250 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to process the passing of a person 251 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: who lived a long life and died at a good age. 252 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine how difficult it be to handle and 253 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: process the loss of two beloved family members, a spouse 254 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: and a young child who had taken so suddenly. Her 255 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: strength amazes me, as it does me David, and I've 256 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: just said as much to her during the break that 257 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: it's one of the extraordinary things. And one of the 258 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: extraordinary things about this book for me, Dominique was your 259 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: ability to analyze with a very calm, sort of rational lens, 260 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: not just your own reactions, but also other people's reactions. 261 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: And you write quite extensively about, you know, the cycles 262 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: of the grief and the rage and the y me 263 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: and the questioning you went through. But you also bring 264 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: a lot of clarity to recognizing how different people responded 265 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: to you differently, and how other people managed your grief 266 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: and responded to it. And you met such interesting comments 267 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: about how sometimes a person would say something that was 268 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: actually hurtful to you, but being able to find the 269 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: distance to recognize that wasn't coming from a place of malice, 270 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: that it was often coming from a place of just 271 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: not knowing what to say. Do you want to elaborate 272 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: a little bit, I mean, is that something that that's 273 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: come with time and distance from the event, or were 274 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: you able to have that sort of sense of grace? 275 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: I think is the word I'm looking for in the 276 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: thick of it. 277 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 2: It's an interesting question I need to I was trying 278 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: to think back a little bit now to figure out 279 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: when exactly this idea came to me. I don't think 280 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: it was quite in the thick of it, if I'm honest. 281 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: There were a couple of comments that were made that 282 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: did get under my skin a little bit. And there 283 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: are often the kind of comments that people don't really 284 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: think about at the time when they say them. So 285 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: for example, I remember at the memorial service, this was 286 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: about a week after the actual accident, a person at 287 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: the memorial service said to me, or, this is all 288 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: part of God's plan, And I kind of like, I 289 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: was like, you know, I understand where that's coming from, 290 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: but like, I don't really want to believe that that's true. 291 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to believe that there was a plan 292 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: that involved me falling in love with someone, marrying them, 293 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: having this baby, raising her for two years, and then 294 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: losing them both in this way. What kind of plan, 295 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing. Or people will say 296 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: things like, oh, they're in a better place, you know, 297 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: So the place where they are here with me is 298 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: not a good place. There's a better place. 299 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: Than this, you know. 300 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: So those kinds of things, they definitely, like I say, 301 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: a few of them did get under my skin in 302 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: the moment, but I remember sometime after the accident reading 303 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: about the psychological trick. It's similar to Ockham's razor. It's 304 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: called Hanlan's Raizer, and Hanlan's Raiser basically says, never ascribe 305 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: malice to that which can be explained by ignorance. And 306 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: it's this kind of stepping back, as you said, and 307 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: recognizing that the person who has said this thing to me, 308 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: even though it may hurt me, that wasn't their intention. 309 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: There isn't malice there. It's just ignorance. And we speak 310 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: of ignorance very negatively. It has a very negative connotation, 311 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: but in this instance, I actually think ignorance is somewhat 312 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: of a blessing. What a blessing to be ignorant about 313 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: traumatic loss because the only way you can gain experience 314 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: in it is by going through it yourself. 315 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, it's such a profound insight that and dominic. 316 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: It's also something that you applied to on a wider scale. 317 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: When you look at loss in this book and you 318 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: talk about how you hope this book might help other 319 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: people who are going through loss of their own. You 320 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: very very clear about saying, please, let's try and move 321 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: away from the sort of the idea of a hierarchy 322 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: of loss, that my grief isn't as bad as your 323 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: grief because what you went through was worse than all 324 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: also trying to rationalize that, well, yes I'm going through 325 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: something difficult, but it's much worse for somebody else. As 326 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: you rightly say, if it was a ladder, you would 327 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: be sitting on the top rung. I don't think anybody 328 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: can imagine anything worse than what you had gone through. 329 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: But you have a lot of grace, again to use 330 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: that word quite deliberately, for recognizing that for each person, 331 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: the worst loss or trauma that they have faced is 332 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: their worst. I mean, how did that change your perspective 333 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: going forward on recognizing and looking around you and going 334 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: there's nobody else on this top step with me, But 335 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: there are a lot of other people who have faced 336 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: their own kind of profound loss. 337 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that insight very much came from speaking to 338 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: other people about their losses. I found a very strange 339 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: thing happened to me after the accident. I started kind 340 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: of attracting people who had lost things into my life. 341 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure why it happens that way, or 342 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: maybe that I only recognized loss in them because I 343 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: had gone through it myself. But the more that I 344 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 2: spoke to them, we would eventually get to a point 345 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: in the conversation where they would say something to me 346 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: along the lines of, oh, well, I know what I 347 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: went through is nothing compared to And I would always 348 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: want to almost flinch when I heard that, because why 349 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 2: why are you taking this pain that you feel that 350 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: is such a valid response to the loss that you've had, 351 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: and why are you minimizing it to nothing because you 352 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: feel like you need to compare it to what happened 353 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: to me. I saw in these people that I was 354 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 2: speaking to so many similarities in the things that were 355 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 2: happening to us after our losses, the things we were 356 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: going through, the things we needed to process, so many 357 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: similarities that the things that we lost almost became irrelevant. 358 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: It's just the fact that we cared about something very 359 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: deeply and that thing is now gone and that is 360 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: going to hurt. That's a universal human experience. So that 361 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 2: kind of got me thinking about this idea of like, 362 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: why do we rank things the way that we do, 363 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: you know, and why are we in this situation where 364 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: I'm so uniquely equipped through my experience to support other 365 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: people in their grief, and the very people that I 366 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: want to support often pull away from me out of 367 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: this idea that they don't want to be disrespectful or 368 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 2: something along those lines. It's actually mad. 369 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: You know, so much so to the point that when 370 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: and I don't want to say too much on this 371 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: because I want listeners to go and get the book 372 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: and read this for themselves, but I mean you said 373 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: earlier purpose will find you again. You have also learnt 374 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: with time that love may find you again. And one 375 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: of the things that really struck me when you first 376 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: met the person who was going to become a person 377 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: who ignited love again, your comment was that it was 378 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: such a relief to be able to talk to somebody 379 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: who didn't know you before the accident, who wasn't attached 380 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: to you emotionally as the Dominique who existed before the 381 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: seventh of October twenty twenty two, because in being able 382 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: to share with them, you didn't feel like you were 383 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: burdening them with your pain. You weren't hurting them because 384 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: everybody else who knew you and loved you Dominique was 385 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: hurting for you, and if you spoke to them about 386 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: what you were feeling. You seem to have been acutely 387 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: aware of the fact that that was perhaps inflicting pain 388 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: back on them again. I don't want to say too much, 389 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: as I said, I want listeners to go and read 390 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: for themselves, but the opening up of the potential to 391 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: love again and to start imagining a different life moving 392 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: forward is such an important turning point for you, because, 393 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: as you rightly say, you didn't just grieve the loss 394 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: of Gendre and of Felix. You also grieved the loss 395 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: of Dominique as she was. Talk to us a little 396 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: bit about the moment or the process leading to the 397 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: point where you started realizing that, Okay, that Dominique has 398 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: gone forever. What has happened has happened and can never 399 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: be changed. But I have to now building new dreams 400 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: and a new path forward for the new Dominique to 401 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: have a future. What was that process like for you? 402 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: So for me it started almost instantly. I woke up 403 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: on the eighth of October with a very keen awareness 404 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: that nothing was going to be the same again and 405 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 2: that I was going to have to find some new 406 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 2: direction to move into. And while in the beginning my 407 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 2: steps were a bit hazy, and I was kind of 408 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: faltering around in the dark a bit. I kind of 409 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: think of it as like move moving through a tunnel, 410 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: or having tunnel vision. At the at the beginning, close 411 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: to the accident, I could see very little ahead of me. 412 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: I could kind of envision making it to the end 413 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: of a day, or maybe to the day after tomorrow. 414 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: Eventually I got to be able to think about things like, Okay, 415 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: the end of this week, but still not sure what 416 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 2: next week holds. And then eventually, as I got to 417 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: the point where I was able to open my heart 418 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: to someone again and embrace the idea of loving again. 419 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: Only at that point did my vision really broaden to like, oh, 420 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: one day, maybe we could do XYZ on an undetermined 421 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: point in the future, you know. And I don't know 422 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: what all the steps are to get to that point yet, 423 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: but I can kind of see it's almost like a 424 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: light in the distance, like a lighthouse. There's something there 425 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: as opposed to just what's right in front of me. 426 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: Now, you've been through extensive therapy, and I know it 427 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: has been very helpful to you, but you also are 428 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 1: left and I mean it would be impossible not to 429 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: be listening to what you've been through with some degree 430 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: of PTSD, if we can call it that broadly, how 431 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 1: do you manage that in the moments when it does 432 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: impact you because it presents the form of extreme anxiety 433 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: about the people that you love, which is completely understandable 434 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: given what you've been through. But how debilitating is that? 435 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: Or or have you found a way to look at 436 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: in the face and live with it? 437 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: So it's gotten slightly better, It's gotten slightly better. Fortunately, 438 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 2: I was an absolute menace at the start, especially with 439 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: my family members, and it took a little while to 440 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: understand what the trigger was. And that's why I find 441 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: therapy so useful, because I'm not sure without therapy that 442 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: I wouldn't that I would have been able to identify 443 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: exactly what the trigger was. Initially, I just thought it 444 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: was people traveling in cause, so if a family member 445 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: left the house, that space between them leaving the house 446 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: and returning was a very anxious time for me, and 447 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: I would kind of pester them, you know, on WhatsApp, 448 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 2: like where are you? When are you coming back? Can 449 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 2: you share your location? You know, those kinds of things. 450 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: But with time and with therapy, I came to understand 451 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 2: it wasn't just the idea of people traveling in cars. 452 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: That the underlying fear was that somebody would leave the 453 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: house and not come back to it. So it didn't 454 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 2: matter if I knew where they were, or that they 455 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: weren't in a car anymore, or you know, they were 456 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: at a meeting or whatever. The fear was just that 457 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: they wouldn't come back, that some you know, an asteroid 458 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 2: would fall just on that restaurant, you know, and the 459 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: person inside that I loved like just wouldn't come home 460 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: to me. So it did. It definitely peaked at a stage. 461 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: My anxiety, I would say peaked around the time just 462 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: before I got engaged, so giving away some other book 463 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: now as well. I have since gotten engaged, and just 464 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: before making that commitment to another person, my anxiety was 465 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 2: out of control to the point where I would wake 466 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night and roll over 467 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: and put my hand on his chest to see to 468 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: verify that his heart was still beating, because I was 469 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: scared that if I closed my eyes and fell asleep, 470 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 2: he would die in his sleep and he would leave 471 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: me in that way. So at that point I kind 472 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: of realized that I needed more serious intervention. I had 473 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: been speaking to a particular therapist for a long time, 474 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: but at that point I sought out someone who specialized 475 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: in anxiety disorders and went to them and said, look, 476 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: I have I feel like I have the toolbox. I 477 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: can talk about my feelings. I know why I feel 478 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: the way that I do. Now I need you to 479 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: tell me what to do when I feel like I'm 480 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: about to have a panic attack or I can't control 481 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: my thoughts, like, please tell me what to do. And 482 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: that person, I think we had like four or five 483 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: sessions over the course of a month. It was very intensive. 484 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: Helped me with actual like breathing exercises, thought readirection, those 485 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 2: kinds of things to just get myself out of that 486 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 2: anxiety spiral before it could end in a panic attack. 487 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: And I'm so glad we had time to talk about 488 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: that on air, if only to let people know that 489 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: that kind of help is available dominic, and you don't 490 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: have to just suffer through this as a natural part 491 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: of the grieving process that you just have to live with. 492 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: That help is there if you know to look for it. 493 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: We just scratch the surface of a truly remarkable book 494 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: that has so much I think practical insight and advice 495 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: for anybody who is going through loss of any kind, 496 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: grief of any kind. And I do want to tell 497 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: you two things. Firstly, that the book is in bookstores 498 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: as we speak, so Tudy and others commenting on just 499 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: how amazing it is listening to this interview. Please go 500 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: and look for a copy in your favorite store. It's 501 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: called Lessons from Lost. The other thing I want to 502 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: say is that dominic and I are going to continue 503 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: this conversation at the official book launch at the book 504 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: launch next week Tuesday evening five point thirty for six 505 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: So there's no cost to attend, but you do need 506 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: to RSVP. So if you would like to come and 507 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: listen to a little bit more depth around her story 508 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: and have the opportunity to engage with her directly and 509 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: get her to sign a copy. If you've bought one, 510 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: please do just send an email to book Lounge at 511 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: gmail dot com and tell them that you would like 512 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: to join the event. It's Tuesday, the thirty first of 513 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: March at five point thirty for six pm. Dominique, I 514 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: mean just respect, huge respect, not only the clarity and 515 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: the thought and the honesty with which you speak is 516 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: the way that Dominic writes spoiler, and that she is 517 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: a professional writer. It's why she does it so well. 518 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: And it's a remarkableok book that I think is going 519 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: to be helpful to so many people. So thank you 520 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: for writing it, and thank you so much for joining 521 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: us to talk about it today. 522 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: Thank you for the opportunity. And I always say to 523 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: people that I wrote this book for everyone, and I 524 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: kind of hope that no one ever has the need 525 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: to read it, but if they do, it's there. It's 526 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: a resource for everyone. 527 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: Dominicqu Ulafair the author of Lessons from Loss, and it's 528 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: published by Penguin Random House