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Speaker 1: Seven oh two Weekend Breakfast The Nature Diary with Tim Neary.

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Speaker 2: It's twenty two minutes before seven o'clock and the special

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Speaker 2: Good Friday seven oh two weekend Breakfast with me caok

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Speaker 2: some Strom and this morning we are talking about cheetah,

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Speaker 2: which I love, my favorite anxious cats in a moment

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Speaker 2: to speak to doctor Kelsey Smith is a senior data

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Speaker 2: scientist with the Conservation Canine Unit, which areined in studio

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Speaker 2: by RESIDENCYSI and HU conservationist.

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Speaker 3: Tim Neary, who is insist.

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Speaker 2: He is incandescent with the rage that we don't have

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Speaker 2: hot cross buns in studio.

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Speaker 1: Morning, Tim, morning, what sort of establishment is this? Were

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Speaker 1: you coming on Good Friday and no hot cross buns?

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Speaker 1: I know them. They need to be toasted.

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Speaker 3: What's what toasted?

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Speaker 1: Oh you've got a restaurant here in this place. What's

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Speaker 1: wrong with them?

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Speaker 3: I don't know that they toast hot cross buns.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't mind. They need to start right. I'll

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Speaker 1: say the most awful thing the other day as well. Right,

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Speaker 1: hot cross without fruits fruit in it.

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Speaker 2: That is offensive. That is offensive. It is it's very wrong.

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Speaker 3: No, because essentially then just what is that just a bun.

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Speaker 1: Put a bun with a cross on it.

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Speaker 3: I don't think Jesus likes that.

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Speaker 1: I don't mind who liked it. It's not my seat.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: Look, I get it.

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Speaker 2: Some people don't like that sort of candy, stewed tried fruits.

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Speaker 1: But that's what it's about. It's men's Christmas min's spots, right.

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Speaker 2: I love mince pies, I love fruitcake. I love hot

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Speaker 2: Cross bunds. But some people cannot stand that fruit tea.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's the fruits that turns a lot

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Speaker 2: of people your problems my problems.

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Speaker 1: There's a simple way of dealing with this.

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Speaker 2: You're usually so you know, amenable dating, but hot Cross

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Speaker 2: bunds is where you.

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Speaker 3: Draw the line.

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Speaker 1: The one thing I do love about this time of

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Speaker 1: the year is that you get those boxes of marshmallow eggs. Yes,

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Speaker 1: right now, a box. Normally, if I if I can

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Speaker 1: control myself, a box will last me a year. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but they go in the deep freeze. Ah, in the

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Speaker 1: deep freeze. They're wonderful because then you can suck them

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Speaker 1: like a lollipop.

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Speaker 2: That's never occur to me. So wait, which one is

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Speaker 2: the hollow ones or the.

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Speaker 1: Marshmallows, marshmallow egg eggs. Oh you freeze them, take them

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Speaker 1: and freeze them.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, Okay, I can't promise posted hot cross funds,

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Speaker 2: but I can promise hot cross bunds on Sunday. I

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Speaker 2: will write wonderful. I will right my wrongs, Thank you

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Speaker 2: very much. Do you think cheetahs would like hot cross bunds?

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Speaker 2: Not really, No, strictly carnivorous.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't be good for their digestive system.

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Speaker 2: Really, no, okay, No, that's good to know, because, knowing me,

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Speaker 2: I'd probably try and give a lip cheeta a little

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Speaker 2: bit of my.

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Speaker 1: Hot cross binds. No, it might, it might object Okay, No,

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Speaker 1: it's only a nice bit of tender charcoal. I mean tender, tender,

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Speaker 1: tender spring berg.

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Speaker 3: Okay, no hot cross bunds. More for me I was doing.

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Speaker 1: I did a lot of work with cheetahs, so I've

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Speaker 1: got a very large passion for these creatures. And one

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Speaker 1: of the ones that we had on Swallow, we called

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Speaker 1: it gummy. Now, researchers, you're not supposed to name the animals,

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Speaker 1: fui to that. They all got names.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you to name them?

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Speaker 1: Attached to it? So we had two cheetah in Down

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Speaker 1: and Samara and these two boys they were known as

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Speaker 1: Mozart and Beethoven because friends of Samara who were French,

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Speaker 1: donated the money to move the cheetahs there. We took

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Speaker 1: one look at that. That's the Eastern Cape. They were

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Speaker 1: called button and they were brutes. They were lovely animals.

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Speaker 1: And Sabella was was first of all, was named Kali

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Speaker 1: because they were two that were brought from the Kalahari

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Speaker 1: and on the under the then cheeta reintroduction program. And

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Speaker 1: one was we called Keli and the other we called Hari.

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Speaker 1: So Kelly went off down or Horry, I'm not too

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Speaker 1: sure which went off, And that was called Sabella after

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Speaker 1: the owner's daughters. And then that's Swallow. We had one

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Speaker 1: cheetah which I will not discuss because that called that

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Speaker 1: had me at the b C C. S A or

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Speaker 1: whatever it was or threats thereof why because somebody objected

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Speaker 1: to its name.

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Speaker 3: Let's not get your name the cheetah, Mohammed.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to discuss this cheetah.

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Speaker 3: I knew the moment, she said.

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Speaker 1: But one of the ones that had been strapped up

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Speaker 1: with wire and had been kicked to et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: as called, and was missing a few teeth, so we

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Speaker 1: called it Gummy, and we used to sit down when

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Speaker 1: Gummy Gummy was wonderful. You'd go out and Gummy wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be seen for weeks, and I'd go and park my

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Speaker 1: I had a sang On Corando thing, and I would

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Speaker 1: pocket on top of the hill and put my deck

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Speaker 1: chair out bello a few times and then sit back

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Speaker 1: and wait and Gummy would appear. And we used to

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Speaker 1: always say this, any body got a shot spring back

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Speaker 1: for Gummy because Shanny couldn't have the.

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Speaker 3: Teeth, So how did she eat very well?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: No, she still went very well. But yeah, it's I

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Speaker 1: think Chito one of the one of the gentlemen of

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Speaker 1: the bush. Okay, and look at little things they are,

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Speaker 1: and they do get they get quite a bad wrap

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Speaker 1: on farm lands, and you can understand it, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And it's I always say that, you know, we say

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Speaker 1: that animals are man eaters, lines a man eaters. No,

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Speaker 1: it's not that they get up in the morning and

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Speaker 1: think I'm going to snack on googs. Okay, it's a

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Speaker 1: case of googs doesn't run fast enough and get out

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Speaker 1: the hell out of the way, right. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what happens if you're getting chased by a cheetah orline?

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Speaker 1: What does happen? Did you just grab the person in

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Speaker 1: front of you throw them to the side so that

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Speaker 1: they lost right? Right?

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Speaker 2: So, as mentioned, we're speaking to senior data scientists with

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Speaker 2: conservation with the Conservation Canine Unit. Back to Kelsey Smith,

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Speaker 2: doctor Smith, A very good morning to you. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: Weekend Breakfast.

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Speaker 4: Good morning, and thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, doctor Smith. Why

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Speaker 2: is it that cheetahs are well, they seem to be.

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Speaker 2: Is it accurate to call them? I guess like nervous,

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Speaker 2: skittish creatures because when we think of the cats, all

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Speaker 2: of the cats with itsatiga or a lion or we

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Speaker 2: think of them as quite, you know, sturdy, aggressive, but

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Speaker 2: cheetas seemed to be a little bit.

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Speaker 3: More gentle than its other cousins.

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Speaker 4: Yes, for sure. I think it's probably because amongst the predators,

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Speaker 4: they probably lowest on the food chain, So I think

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Speaker 4: it's just something that they have evolved to be very

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Speaker 4: wary as a survival instinct.

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Speaker 2: I attended a game drive. I think it was last

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Speaker 2: year and one of the things we were told we

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Speaker 2: saw a mother and three cubs and a cheetah mom

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Speaker 2: and three cubs, and we were told that one of

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Speaker 2: the leading causes of death in cubs is lions eating cheetas,

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Speaker 2: So other cats predate on little cheetas, Yes, very.

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Speaker 4: Much so, so within our meta population, the lions is

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Speaker 4: a very high cause of mortality even in some adult cheaters.

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Speaker 4: That's then followed by leopards and spotted hyaenas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, cheetas across the country. Because do we still have

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Speaker 1: free roaming cheatas in South Africa?

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Speaker 4: Yes, we do. There has recently been a very large

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Speaker 4: census on them, so we do still have them. And

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Speaker 4: within South Africa we kind of categorize the cheetas in

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Speaker 4: for management units, so we have the free roaming cheetas,

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Speaker 4: then we have the unmanaged free ranging which is on

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Speaker 4: the Kruger and the Halhadi, and then managed free roamers

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Speaker 4: which is the meta population which is what I work with,

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Speaker 4: and then the cats of population as well.

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Speaker 1: When you say meta population, what do we mean by that?

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Speaker 4: So a myth population is essentially a population of population,

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Speaker 4: so it's geographically separated groups that remain connected through movements.

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Speaker 4: So in natural landscapes, this connectivity occurs through dispersal, so

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Speaker 4: an animal moving from one area to another. But in

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Speaker 4: South Africa, across our network of fenced reserves, this movement

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Speaker 4: is restricted obviously by the fences. So while these protected

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Speaker 4: areas have been instrumental in protecting so many species, it

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Speaker 4: also results in small, isolated populations, which increases the risk

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Speaker 4: of inbreeding and local extinction. So to address this, it

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Speaker 4: was proposed to manage the cheetas on these reserves as

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Speaker 4: a meta population, so a single connected system where carefully

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Speaker 4: plant translocations, so the movement of animals by humans effectively

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Speaker 4: simulates this dispersal to maintain the genetics and stabilize small populations.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that fact of cheetas on these small reserves.

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Speaker 1: If we go somewhere into Kruger as an example, you

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Speaker 1: might see mom and one cub. You might see mom

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Speaker 1: and four or five cubs at the start, but at

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Speaker 1: the end there's my mom and one cub. When you

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Speaker 1: go to these small reserves, you seem to see mom

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Speaker 1: and four cubs or five or six cubs living continuously.

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Speaker 1: Is that a problem for you guys to manage? So

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Speaker 1: that you can't keep them all in one place, surely, yes, exactly.

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Speaker 4: So essentially what we do is so cheetah cubs often

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Speaker 4: disperse the mom at around eighteen months, and then because

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Speaker 4: the reserves are not big enough to maintain viable populations,

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Speaker 4: there's a carrying capacity for how many cheatahs they can

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Speaker 4: have on their property. We then assist them in finding

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Speaker 4: new homes for their most of the cubs once they

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Speaker 4: reach that dispersal age, and then we move them. As

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Speaker 4: in a natural system where or an open system where cheetahs,

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Speaker 4: once they dispersed for mum would move away from her,

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Speaker 4: we simulate that movement and move them to another reserve.

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Speaker 2: Talk to us about the logistics of moving cheetah, particularly

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Speaker 2: at cross border, it sounds like quite an involved ADMINI process.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it is, so it does. It does involve quite

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Speaker 4: a few logistics in terms of permits and just organizing

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Speaker 4: around the transplantation. So you have to obviously get the

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Speaker 4: provincial permits to be allowed to move the cheeta and

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Speaker 4: then coordinate with the vets and so that is for

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Speaker 4: the most part of what we do is we move

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Speaker 4: the cheeta. We provide the transport of the cheetah from

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Speaker 4: Reserve A to Reserve B.

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Speaker 1: Now you've you recently though, you had a lovely story

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Speaker 1: between Malaui, South Africa and Rewilding. What on earth went?

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Speaker 1: What happened there? Besides the odd line schnecking on a cheetah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they happen to have cheeta for breakfast when theyre going

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Speaker 1: to catch a reasonable springbook. What's wrong with them? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Exactly, So, yes, it was an interesting case. So we

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Speaker 4: had a female in the wonder. There was a reintroduction

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Speaker 4: a few years ago of cheetahs, which is where the

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Speaker 4: METS population is so great is that it does provide

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Speaker 4: a source population for restoration of the species in its

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Speaker 4: historical range. So one of these was in the Wander

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Speaker 4: and in twenty twenty five an additional female was taken

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Speaker 4: to Lauander from South Africa that had very important genetics

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Speaker 4: and she ended up having a litter. Unfortunately, she was

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Speaker 4: killed by lion, so the decision was made to do

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Speaker 4: a hands off revelitation of her cubs, and fortunately one

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Speaker 4: of them died, so there was one female room. And

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Speaker 4: around the same time a cheetah in South Africa also

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Speaker 4: unfortunately died and she left one female cup. So the

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Speaker 4: decision was made to bring that female cup from Malawi,

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Speaker 4: bring her to South Africa and try and bond her

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Speaker 4: with this other female cup because that sibling association early

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Speaker 4: on in life is so important for early survival. So

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Speaker 4: we brought the female over and luckily her and the

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Speaker 4: other female accepted each other relatively quickly, and they will

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Speaker 4: then move to another location in a case it in

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Speaker 4: where they've now started their rewilding process, after which we

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Speaker 4: will then send them back to Malawi as a source

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Speaker 4: of genetics supplementation.

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Speaker 1: One of the things though that israel the pleasant is

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Speaker 1: lying or unpleasant is lines. For example, when people say

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Speaker 1: you rewild the line, that's not going to really happen. Chito,

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Speaker 1: though you've got a very good success right of.

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Speaker 4: Rewind Yes, we do.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 4: There has been quite a few captive cheeta which have

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Speaker 4: been successfully rewilded. It's amazing. Even with the captive cheeta,

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Speaker 4: the something instinct is very much all there. So it's

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Speaker 4: really just the predators dabbiness that needs to they need

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Speaker 4: to learn.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that this particular female had very important genetics.

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Speaker 2: Talk to us about that. What would count or how

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Speaker 2: how is that determined? That a particular animal has very

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Speaker 2: important genetics.

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Speaker 4: So within our METS population, as Tim was saying, so,

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Speaker 4: I mean I've fought, I have records of Sabella and

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Speaker 4: Britain's way. So from the start of the Met population,

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Speaker 4: because we started with a relatively small founder population, some

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Speaker 4: cheese genetics are very well represented throughout the METS population

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Speaker 4: and the same as in the one there where they

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Speaker 4: started was a small founder population and have bread from that.

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Speaker 4: So this cheeta that was introduced in twenty five, she

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Speaker 4: had very distinct genetics as opposed to the population that

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Speaker 4: is already there. So just in terms of strengthening the

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Speaker 4: genetic diversity within that population, her genetics were very important.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: There's one thing though that I think might be nice

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Speaker 1: for folks to knows was the Endangered Wildlife Trust kicked

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Speaker 1: off with cheetah. Effectively, the very first photograph, the very

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Speaker 1: first painting by Clive Walker that was sold to raise

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Speaker 1: the very first rand for the Endangered Wildlife Trust was

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Speaker 1: the painting of a cheetah. Oh wow, yes, so there

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Speaker 1: we go. So you can't escape cheetah in the EWT

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Speaker 1: because it keeps on, it keeps on coming back because yeah, okay, right,

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Speaker 1: so as you say, you go back to button. Soare

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Speaker 1: and Sabella and you have a look at this, move

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Speaker 1: them around the countryside. Do you also pick up, though,

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Speaker 1: as an example, the genetics of the king cheeta and

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm not sure whether you can give us a

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Speaker 1: bit of information where people have the idea that the

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Speaker 1: king cheeta is a completely different animal.

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Speaker 4: No, so the king cheeta is really just a genetic mutation.

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Speaker 4: So it's very rare, and for the most part, we

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Speaker 4: don't have well, we don't have any king cheeta with

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Speaker 4: in our met population. I think it was very isolated

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Speaker 4: cases and I don't think it's ever made its way

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Speaker 4: into the met population. So we have very distinct color

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Speaker 4: variants I guess within the met population, where some are

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Speaker 4: very light and some are very dark. But we've not

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Speaker 4: had that specific genetic mutation within our met population.

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Speaker 1: What are the challenges that you face with that animal

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Speaker 1: now as well? Because I'm assuming everybody would say let's

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Speaker 1: grab all the cheeta so that the lines don't eat them,

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Speaker 1: and will with the menzoos and on small farms, No,

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Speaker 1: you want them back in a natural, natural environment. What

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Speaker 1: is the challenges that you face?

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Speaker 4: So I think it's as you said, people become attached

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Speaker 4: to the teeta and you want to be able to

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Speaker 4: you want to protect them. That our whole model is

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Speaker 4: towards creating as natural a system as possible, even within

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Speaker 4: these offensed reserves, So we try and let natural processes

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Speaker 4: take place. So although we assimilating the dispersal aspect of it,

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Speaker 4: the cheats are still exposed to other predators. Their self sufficient,

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Speaker 4: they hunt for themselves. The one instance where we do

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Speaker 4: sometimes intervene is when there is often cheetah So when

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Speaker 4: mum has been killed, then we often do intervene and

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Speaker 4: rewild those cubs.

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Speaker 1: Cat's very as as sort of a whole species. Is

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Speaker 1: there a future for them, particularly the free roaming or

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Speaker 1: is it okay? So we will only see these cats

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Speaker 1: in the future within game reserves, within small small reserves.

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Speaker 4: IM hoful that there is still a future for the

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Speaker 4: free roaming population. I have just been to Namibia recently.

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Speaker 4: They have quite a large free roaming population there and

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Speaker 4: through research and collaboration with the farmers, they've been very

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Speaker 4: successful in decreasing that conflict between the farmers and the cheetas.

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Speaker 4: So there is hope that we can do the same

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Speaker 4: here that they have been successful in that, But so,

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Speaker 4: as I said, there is cheetah on within the Kruger

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Speaker 4: and then we've got our mets population, and the mets

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Speaker 4: population is doing very well. So we've had a growth

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Speaker 4: rate of about eight percent per year since it was

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Speaker 4: formerly established, and so it provides a good source population

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Speaker 4: for those reintroductions if and where needed.

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Speaker 1: Is there a lot of education still needed.

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Speaker 4: Pardon?

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Speaker 1: Is there a lot of education still needed for farmlands

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Speaker 1: for the general public on these animals.

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Speaker 4: And yes, I think so, as you said, there's maybe

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Speaker 4: a at times a misconception in terms of that cheetahs

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Speaker 4: are a dangerous animal and predation on livestock in that

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Speaker 4: so hopefully I think the educate awareness of the cheetah

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Speaker 4: is increasing and hopefully it will still continue to do so.

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Speaker 2: I know one of the things at some point that

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Speaker 2: was a big fact that affecting the cheetah numbers was

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Speaker 2: habitat loss.

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Speaker 3: Is that still the case, yes.

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Speaker 4: Very much.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 4: That's where unfortunately within South Africa, and I think even

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Speaker 4: on a global scale, we don't have those large connected

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Speaker 4: ecosystems anymore less and less so, and so that is

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Speaker 4: the value of the met's population model, where it shows

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Speaker 4: that you can still have viable populations of these species

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Speaker 4: within fragmented landscape, provided that you manage them to a

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Speaker 4: certain extent.

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Speaker 1: Well, something I think one wants to follow gelsee if

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Speaker 1: people do want to find out more about the work

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Speaker 1: that you guys do, how do they do that?

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Speaker 4: Thanks Amia. So we have an Instagram page through WT Carnivores,

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Speaker 4: and then obviously we have our EDWT website. We post

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Speaker 4: a lot on the Instagram of our field work and

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Speaker 4: what we're up to.

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Speaker 2: Kelsey, I must thank you very very much for giving

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Speaker 2: us your time this morning. It's been a great pleasure

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Speaker 2: to having you on the show.

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Speaker 4: Hey, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: That is doctor Calsey Smith, Senior data scientist with the

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Speaker 2: Conservation K nine units. I'd like to own a cheetah

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Speaker 2: and I'm not allowed to.

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Speaker 1: No funny enough, it's I have a tattoo of a

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Speaker 1: cheetah on my shoulder really top the tear lines and

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Speaker 1: the eye ah googs. Yeah. It's interesting the number of

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Speaker 1: when I was at the early stages when I was

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Speaker 1: involved with the cheetah, people had cheetah in tennis courts

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Speaker 1: in Senten and the individual used to go and buy

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Speaker 1: them a leg of lamb once a week. Wrong food,

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Speaker 1: it's too fatty, and it was quite interesting. That's where

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Speaker 1: a lot of old horses horse meaters et cetera. Horse

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Speaker 1: meat is one of the good meats that you can

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Speaker 1: use because it's very it's not fatty. And that's for

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Speaker 1: work with cheetah, et cetera. The late and fun Dake.

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Speaker 1: I think if she hadn't have had the passion for

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Speaker 1: cheetah in South Africa, we wouldn't see the cheetah where

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Speaker 1: they are today. And she drove it she and she

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Speaker 1: was hard about the way that she drove cheetah conservation

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Speaker 1: in this country and it was needed. Unfortunately, now that

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Speaker 1: she's passed away, et cetera, and the work when back

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Speaker 1: to the EWT and they do a very good job, okay,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's important and it might sound well, why

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Speaker 1: are you moving those animals around? It's all about genetic bottlenecks, etc.

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Speaker 1: You have to move the animals around and they are

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Speaker 1: lovely and the hilarious thing though when they do charge

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Speaker 1: you and they get a little bit testy and they've

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Speaker 1: got a bounce, they bounce up and down and split

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Speaker 1: it you and you normally can set them go go away,

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Speaker 1: and they do just that. They are lovely animals. I

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Speaker 1: had them, I had fifteen years of the most incredible time.

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Speaker 2: So Tim is always great to have you in studio.

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Speaker 2: And that takes us to seven o'clock and our laters

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Speaker 2: out with this news.