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Speaker 1: Seven or two World of Work.

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Speaker 2: So on our World of Work feature today, I want

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Speaker 2: us to have a conversation about employees who remain in

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Speaker 2: unhealthy work environments, because it's actually more complex than just

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Speaker 2: thinking that someone stays right when you look at the

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Speaker 2: issues that they often raise, whether it's ben out, stress,

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Speaker 2: you know, the toxic workplace cultures, those are no longer

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Speaker 2: just fringe concerns. They've become quite central to how we

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Speaker 2: understand the modern world of work. And that's why globally

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Speaker 2: you've got so many employees now reporting record levels of

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Speaker 2: stress and disengagements. And even here at home, that pressure

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Speaker 2: is compounded by the tough economic climate, the high unemployment,

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Speaker 2: the rising cost of living. But what's particularly striking is

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Speaker 2: that even as more people openly acknowledge that their work

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Speaker 2: environments are unhealthy, many are still choosing to stay in

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Speaker 2: that employment. Whether it's the long hours, the poor leadership,

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Speaker 2: the lack of recognition, or maybe it's just the emotionally

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Speaker 2: draining workplace dynamics. The reality is that walking away isn't

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Speaker 2: always a simple or accessible option. So it raises an

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Speaker 2: important question. If people know their environment is affecting their

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Speaker 2: well being, what keeps them there. Is it purely financial

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Speaker 2: pressure or are the deeper psychological and cultural factors at

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Speaker 2: play that keep employees feeling stuck? And what does this

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Speaker 2: say about the way workplaces are structured and the expectations

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Speaker 2: we place on people to endure rather than to thrive.

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Speaker 2: And if you have been in a situation where the workplace,

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Speaker 2: the culture, the dynamics are just toxic, it's not good

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Speaker 2: for you even emotionally, but you are still in that company,

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Speaker 2: what are your reasons? What are your reasons? Is it

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Speaker 2: the financial pressure, is it the tough economic environment and

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Speaker 2: of course the picture of unemployment in this country, or

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Speaker 2: do you have other reasons why you've decided to stick

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Speaker 2: around with your own company regardless of how unhappy you

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Speaker 2: are working for it. Share your experience with us on

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Speaker 2: oh one one eight day three oh seven or two.

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Speaker 2: You can also send it once up on oh seven

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Speaker 2: two seven or two one seven oh two. May your

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Speaker 2: Pabe is a global executive coach and organizational culture specialist

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Speaker 2: who's going to guide us through this conversation. Mariyo, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for your time, Good morning, thank.

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Speaker 1: You morning, so good to be here. And before we

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Speaker 1: get into it, I know this is probably OFFQ, but

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to commend you for holding space on

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Speaker 1: the previous topic that we talk about. I mean that

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Speaker 1: you talked about rather I caught the tail end of it,

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Speaker 1: and as a coach, I just thought it would be

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Speaker 1: useful to just share very briefly that many people are

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Speaker 1: unable to move forward in relationships, in their jobs, in

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Speaker 1: their family dynamics because of that one thing. It's the

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Speaker 1: unlock for many, many people. And I've coached people through

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Speaker 1: that because people say, oh, my boss is not treating

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Speaker 1: you out, or I'm not happy in my relationship, but

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Speaker 1: the thing at the core of that that they actually

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Speaker 1: need to confront and deal with is the acceptance. For

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Speaker 1: many many people, the will look like acceptance that this

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Speaker 1: person doesn't love me, and I have to find the

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Speaker 1: courage to move on. And that's deep work and it's

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Speaker 1: painful work, but often that has been the unlock for

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Speaker 1: the people that I've worked with.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, what we're hearing, are you more and

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Speaker 2: more is like you know burnout? You hear that you

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Speaker 2: know more than before, a lot of people are talking

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Speaker 2: about that. A lot of people are talking about how

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Speaker 2: unhappy they are, but they're not necessarily leaving those jobs.

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Speaker 2: What's driving that disconnect? What are you able to share

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Speaker 2: with us?

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Speaker 1: So this is quite a layered and complex topic, and

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Speaker 1: we obviously have a very limited amount of time to

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Speaker 1: get into it. But some of the key themes that

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Speaker 1: have come up, certainly in the work that I do,

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Speaker 1: is that people, first of all, they recognize the burnout,

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Speaker 1: but they're unable to move forward because when you confront

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Speaker 1: your burnout, it then raises a new set of questions

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Speaker 1: because burnout isn't necessarily just being tired, it's also being

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Speaker 1: exhausted emotional, mentally, physically, having prolonged stress, and having this

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Speaker 1: sense of alignment within yourself that something is not quite

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Speaker 1: right and I'm not quite sure what it is. So

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Speaker 1: in order for you to confront that, you have to

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Speaker 1: be willing to have very difficult conversations with yourself, because

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Speaker 1: now the question becomes, well, what does feel right? What

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Speaker 1: will energize me? And because we don't want to face that,

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Speaker 1: it's much much easier to just stay put, because, hey,

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Speaker 1: most of us are in careers based on expectations, based

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Speaker 1: on societal expectations, are family, et cetera, et cetera, and

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Speaker 1: like you, rightfully said, the economy is not looking good.

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Speaker 1: So everybody around you is telling you, but you're so

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Speaker 1: lucky to have a job, but you have a home,

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Speaker 1: why should you even think of moving? So burnout is

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Speaker 1: something that would rather just neatly put away in a

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Speaker 1: box and continue with the life that we know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've spoken about the survival mode, and I'm

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Speaker 2: just wondering how that affects decision making in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: How much of them deciding to stay is driven but

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Speaker 2: by that survival mode.

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Speaker 1: When we're in a state of stress and anxiety from

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Speaker 1: burnout and we're in survival mode, what happens in the

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Speaker 1: brain is that our rational thinking shuts down and what

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Speaker 1: gets activated is the amygdala, the fight and flight response,

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Speaker 1: which is automatic. So when we're in that state, we

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Speaker 1: can't make decisions. We think that if we leave, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna die. If we leave, we're going to be homeless.

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Speaker 1: If we leave, our children won't our children won't be

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Speaker 1: able to go to school. And then we catastrophize what

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Speaker 1: the future could look like because we're not critically thinking,

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Speaker 1: we're not logically thinking, we're just thinking based on this

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Speaker 1: fear that if I look into what it is that

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Speaker 1: I truly want, it's probably going to go wrong, so

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Speaker 1: I may as well just stay put here. So it deeply,

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Speaker 1: deeply impacts our decision making because we're not rationalizing and

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Speaker 1: we're not contemplating the various scenarios, the various outcomes. We're

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Speaker 1: just thinking about the worst possible thing, which is danger,

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Speaker 1: and we need to get away from that danger. So

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Speaker 1: it's much easier to just stay put.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like a point where stress is now

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Speaker 2: being normalized and people stop recognizing that they are infact

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Speaker 2: in a harmful environment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, Definitely. Stress is something that humans generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: in the world of work globally and living with on

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Speaker 1: a day to day basis, and it's normalized to the

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Speaker 1: extent that everybody around us is experiencing it. So the

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Speaker 1: people that aren't stressed out like we are, we tend

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Speaker 1: to think that, oh, you know, if that's just the exception,

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Speaker 1: But the norm is that we should all be miserable,

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Speaker 1: we should all be stressed here. But when we're corageous

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Speaker 1: enough to look within and ask ourselves the deeper question

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Speaker 1: which we don't want to confront, then we can begin

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Speaker 1: to develop that self awareness and start ordering our steps

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Speaker 1: and making a plan on what it is that will

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Speaker 1: energize us, what it is that will bring us joy

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Speaker 1: and something that's more importantly aligned with purpose and aligned

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Speaker 1: with our values. Because many people tend to think that

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Speaker 1: purpose and values are separate from your work. But your

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Speaker 1: understanding of your purpose and your values greatly influenced of

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Speaker 1: how you show up in any particular environment. And if

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Speaker 1: you're not able to express that through the work that

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Speaker 1: you do, then it's one of the contributing factors that

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Speaker 1: needs us to burn out.

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Speaker 2: So what about then, endurance, because sometimes when endure stuff

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Speaker 2: in the workplace, that can often be mistaken for commitment.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder how workplaces have reinforced this entire idea.

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Speaker 2: And my second question to that is, what do you

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Speaker 2: think is the responsibility of employers here? What do they

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Speaker 2: need to do?

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Speaker 1: So the first question with resilience and self harm, endurance

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Speaker 1: and self harm in the workplace, it's idolized when you

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Speaker 1: work hard and you push hard, and you go mode

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Speaker 1: and you you never stop to feel whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that you're feeling, but you're just focused on performance. So

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Speaker 1: when we're in that space, it cuts us off from

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Speaker 1: our feelings, and some of us, naturally we're more action orientated.

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Speaker 1: So generally speaking, human beings advanced strongly in one of

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Speaker 1: three centers. So some of us are deeply caught up

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Speaker 1: in our thinking, some of us deeply in action, and

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Speaker 1: others deeply in emotion. So the people that are go

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Speaker 1: go getter them, they're driven to constantly and consistently take action.

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Speaker 1: It becomes much much harder for them to take that breather,

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Speaker 1: to stop, look around and say, what am I actually

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Speaker 1: doing here? Is there something else that I want to

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Speaker 1: be doing with my life? So we keep going to

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Speaker 1: the detriment of our health and we ignore the signals

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Speaker 1: that are there, because our brains will always indicate to

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Speaker 1: us that something is wrong, that something doesn't feel right.

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Speaker 1: But if you don't stop to listen to that, and

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Speaker 1: you're just caught up in achievement, then it can easily

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Speaker 1: pass you by and you end up harming yourself in

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Speaker 1: the long run. And the interesting thing about these emotions

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Speaker 1: is that in as much as we don't talk about them,

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Speaker 1: it's not like they disappear. Emotions and feelings take up

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Speaker 1: real estate in our minds and our bodies, and it

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Speaker 1: often manifests the sickness. So you will find yourself having

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Speaker 1: a constant headache or there's a pain somewhere in your body,

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Speaker 1: and you don't stop to think that, why have I

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Speaker 1: normalized living with this pain? So it could be that

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Speaker 1: built up emotion over time that's telling you that this

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Speaker 1: isn't right. We need to do something different, we need

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Speaker 1: to become aligned. And the second you are the second question.

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Speaker 2: About the employers themselves, because some of them, like I say,

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Speaker 2: they see that someone is enduring here, some people are

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Speaker 2: not coping, some people are here because of any other pressures,

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Speaker 2: and I'm wondering, what isn't that those employers can do?

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Speaker 2: Is it all about your you know, organizational culture like

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Speaker 2: shifting that what responsibility do they have here?

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Speaker 1: It's definitely a split responsibility. And as I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: this is a complex layered conversation, but it's definitely the

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Speaker 1: responsibility of both employer and employee, and a great place

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Speaker 1: to start as an employee if this is something that

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Speaker 1: they've never actively thought about. Is to expose people to information,

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Speaker 1: is to expose employees to self mastering? What does that

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Speaker 1: look like? And interestingly enough, one of the reasons that

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Speaker 1: I left my very nice corporate job at Multi Choice

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Speaker 1: was because I went on a workshop that Multi Choice

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Speaker 1: offered all of its employees and it was talking about

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Speaker 1: change and what holds us back from change and how

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Speaker 1: do we motivate ourselves to take action. So after going

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Speaker 1: on that course, I knew that within three months I

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Speaker 1: had to resign and pursue something that's more meaningful to me.

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Speaker 1: So exposing people to information is the responsibility of the employer,

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Speaker 1: and then with the employee, they have to be willing

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Speaker 1: to go deeper within and ask themselves those hard questions.

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Speaker 1: Because when you look at the latest stats, for example,

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Speaker 1: from the State of the Global Workplace, which is produced

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Speaker 1: by Gallops, it shows in there that seventy two percent

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Speaker 1: of employees within Sub Sahara Africa feel that they're struggling

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Speaker 1: that work. So only eighteen percent feel that they're thriving.

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Speaker 1: Only ten percent right at the bottom say that they're suffering.

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Speaker 1: But the majority of people are in the middle, which

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Speaker 1: is struggling seventy two percent. And these are people that

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Speaker 1: are just getting by. They're doing just enough to make

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Speaker 1: things work for themselves. But hey, it's not an amazing

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Speaker 1: space to be in for whatever reason, but they just

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Speaker 1: choose to continue. So having a two pronged approach will

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Speaker 1: really enable organizations to get to employees to that space

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Speaker 1: to say, Okay, maybe this department isn't for me, maybe

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Speaker 1: this company isn't for me, Maybe this area of expertise

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Speaker 1: it's something that I've run the course on. Now I

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Speaker 1: want to do something different. So being curious as well

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Speaker 1: as an employee is so so important because we can't

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Speaker 1: point at the organization, and this is what most people do.

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Speaker 1: They'll point fatures that they if only my boss, if

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Speaker 1: owning the culture, if only this, but from the work

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Speaker 1: that I've done, the moment that you empower a person

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Speaker 1: to believe that they are responsible for building the life

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Speaker 1: that they want. Ultimately, then it equips them to be

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Speaker 1: able to take action towards what they really want.

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Speaker 2: M oh one one eighty three seven two. Are you

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Speaker 2: one of those employees who remains working even at this

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Speaker 2: unhealthy under unhealthy work environment and what is your reason?

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Speaker 2: Because you know, as Mayo said, this is a very

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Speaker 2: layered conversation. Some people may say it's the financial pressure

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Speaker 2: I need to take care of my kids. For other people,

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Speaker 2: it may be other reasons. But what is it for you?

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Speaker 2: Are you working in an environment that is unhealthy, that

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Speaker 2: is toxic and how do you deal with that every

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Speaker 2: single day when you go to work? How are you

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Speaker 2: handling that? You can send your WhatsApps as well on

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Speaker 2: oh seven two seven two one seven two. One of

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Speaker 2: the WhatsApp texts that have come through comes from Anonymous,

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Speaker 2: who says high Clement Anonymous here, It's so sad that

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Speaker 2: I have emotionally and mentally checked out of my current employer,

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Speaker 2: and I've made peace that my growth is kept as

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Speaker 2: I'm the type. I'm not the type they want in management.

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Speaker 2: I have stopped attending company events and I'm just coming

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Speaker 2: here because of my financial benefit. I am actively seeking

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Speaker 2: employment and I still I can't wait for the day

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Speaker 2: I find something else, somewhere else, Kunzi Ma. That's a

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Speaker 2: message coming there on the what's up line? And then

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Speaker 2: another person was actually asking a question Mayo, about what

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Speaker 2: the tell signs are. How do they know that they

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Speaker 2: have reached that breaking point? They haven't resigned, but how

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Speaker 2: do they know that they've reached that that breaking point? Because,

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Speaker 2: like we said, for other people, some people are like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is a workplace, that's what they've been told these

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Speaker 2: things happen in the workplace. Of course you're going to

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Speaker 2: feel like they're in the workplace. But how does someone

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Speaker 2: know that this is breaking point, this is unhealthy. I'm

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Speaker 2: just enduring here. I'm not happy, and something's got to

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Speaker 2: be done.

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Speaker 1: I'd be weary of saying that if you're experiencing these

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Speaker 1: five things, then it's a fine right. I can only

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Speaker 1: speak from my experience and from the research and the

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Speaker 1: insights side that I have. So generally speaking, there are

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Speaker 1: a few key things, but it doesn't mean that it

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Speaker 1: will be the same for every single person. Like I

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Speaker 1: said earlier about our personality, so to sum it up,

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Speaker 1: it really is about looking at your emotions, looking at

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Speaker 1: your mental health, looking at your physical health, and examining

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Speaker 1: your stress levels, and also reflecting on your feelings. How

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Speaker 1: do I feel? Am I obsessing about work all the time?

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Speaker 1: Am I ruminating about situations? Do I feel like a

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Speaker 1: self censered censored, self sensitive myself at work? In other words,

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Speaker 1: I'm not speaking my truth? Do I feel drained and

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Speaker 1: depressed and completely removed from the work that I'm doing?

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Speaker 1: So those, generally speaking, are indicators for us to go

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Speaker 1: deeper and start asking ourselves, Okay, if this is not

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Speaker 1: what I want, then what does what I want actually

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Speaker 1: look like? Because in some instances it could mean speaking up.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't always necessarily mean leaving. We could be that

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Speaker 1: person that takes up the it and says, I AM

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Speaker 1: going to change the symvi mo. And in that we

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Speaker 1: grow within the organization, We grow our influence, and we

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Speaker 1: engage with people who are also feeling the same way,

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Speaker 1: and we can be the change that we want to see.

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Speaker 1: As cliche as it sounds, but that sometimes is the

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Speaker 1: journey of certain individuals.

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Speaker 2: Here's what's a voice note that's come true?

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Speaker 3: Hi, clements and team thing for me. The workplace which

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Speaker 3: I'm at, I wouldn't it's not toxic, but I'm just

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Speaker 3: it's not in purpose, you know, it's not in line

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Speaker 3: with my purpose. So I forced myself to go because

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Speaker 3: I have three children to feed, the school fees to

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Speaker 3: be paid, and yeah, and I think it's just me.

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Speaker 3: What I'm currently doing is applying in the direction which

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Speaker 3: I would like to go in and just doing courses

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Speaker 3: that are line to that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, thank you for that voice note and

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Speaker 2: all the best. Hey, I hope you find a place,

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Speaker 2: a place that you because those places do exist, places

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Speaker 2: where you feel privileged to be there, You feel you

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Speaker 2: know there's a proper support system, and you want to

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Speaker 2: really all your energy take it out on making sure

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Speaker 2: that this entire company succeeds because the work environment, the

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Speaker 2: culture just allows for that. What are the long term

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Speaker 2: effects though, of staying in a toxic or draining work

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Speaker 2: environment like that, because some people will try and push

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Speaker 2: it as far as they can, as you've said before,

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Speaker 2: because of the different circumstances. Some people are trying to

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Speaker 2: feed their families. So I mean, if I leave here,

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Speaker 2: where do I go? How am I going to pay

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Speaker 2: for school fees? But how do you then? What's what's

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Speaker 2: your advice one for people who are in that situation?

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Speaker 2: Is it better to get therapy? Is it better to

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Speaker 2: speak to a colleague who maybe understands the situation? How

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Speaker 2: do you deal with something like that?

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Speaker 1: The first step that I encourage people to do is

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Speaker 1: to ask themselves what am I afraid of? What is

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Speaker 1: it that I'm so terrified of? If I leave or

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Speaker 1: if I speak up, then this thing is going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Because fear is such a huge deterrent of people going

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Speaker 1: for what they really want. And it's also about understanding

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Speaker 1: that we never build anything of value within our comfort zone.

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Speaker 1: At some point in life, we have to be willing

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Speaker 1: to step out. We have to be willing to take

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Speaker 1: that risk. But most of us, because we haven't clearly

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Speaker 1: defined where we want to be, then we don't have

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Speaker 1: that impetus, that energy, that motivation to step towards what

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Speaker 1: we want because we don't really know what it is.

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Speaker 1: So facing our fear that and understanding that to achieve

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Speaker 1: something we've never achieved before, we have to become someone

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Speaker 1: we've never been before. That's what will take us closer

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Speaker 1: to where we want to be. And in terms of

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Speaker 1: how do we address it now, I firmly believe that

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Speaker 1: each and every one of us is living our purpose

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Speaker 1: in some shape, in some form. Some of us are

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Speaker 1: not aware of it, some of us are completely aware

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Speaker 1: of it. So I would challenge people to think, where

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Speaker 1: I am right now, how can I begin to live

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Speaker 1: my purpose? It could be possible in your work environment,

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Speaker 1: it could be possible outside. But taking a step towards

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Speaker 1: what we really want gives us the energy and the inspiration.

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Speaker 1: And when we focus our minds on what we want,

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Speaker 1: then suddenly the past appears. We take that first step

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Speaker 1: and then the next one reveals itself. And not to

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Speaker 1: get caught up in thinking, but there's no jobs. It's

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Speaker 1: really really hard because I've come across people. Or for example,

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Speaker 1: when I went horse riding last year, there was a

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Speaker 1: woman there we were chatting who works at the stable,

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Speaker 1: and she was saying, I absolutely hated corporate and I

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Speaker 1: quit with nothing to go to because I knew that

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Speaker 1: it was making me sick. So her going to do

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Speaker 1: horse riding and managing stables and something. For some of

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Speaker 1: us that might feel like it's something completely crazy. But

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Speaker 1: coming back to your question, what are the things that

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Speaker 1: people will experience if they don't pursue their dreams. On

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Speaker 1: the very very very very extreme end, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to lie. For some people it results in death. We

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Speaker 1: read about people in the news that take their lives,

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Speaker 1: that works themselves to the ground, that just suddenly one

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Speaker 1: morning they never wake up, and a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is to do with their work environment. Now, on the

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Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum, what will happen is that

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Speaker 1: voice will keep growing and growing than us, and at

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Speaker 1: a certain point it will manifest as sicknesses, where we're

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Speaker 1: not feeling well, where our mood, our attitude is just very,

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Speaker 1: very negative, And there's an element of acceptance in that.

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Speaker 1: So again it varies with some people. Others accept and

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Speaker 1: they still continue to give their work. Others accept it

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Speaker 1: makes them feel worse physically, mentally, spiritually. So really honoring

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Speaker 1: our journey and paying attention to who we are and

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Speaker 1: what we want is the single most important thing that

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Speaker 1: we can do for ourselves, because, like I said, it

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Speaker 1: is our responsibility as individuals to build the life that

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Speaker 1: we want. It is nobody else's responsibility, not our employer,

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Speaker 1: our husband, our partner, our lovers. It is our responsibility period.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it, Mario Phoebe, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: guiding us to do such an important conversation. She's a

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Speaker 2: global executive coach and organizational culture specialists. That takes us

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Speaker 2: to eleven thirty one