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Speaker 1: Seven two interview. The Portfolio Committee on Public Service and

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Speaker 1: Administration has highlighted the challenges of doing lifestyle audits for

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Speaker 1: government employees. This is so important given the heightened levels

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Speaker 1: of corruption in our country. Lifestyle audits are seen as

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Speaker 1: a valuable way of seeing how political and state employees live.

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Speaker 1: Government officials have repeatedly called for the use of lifestyle

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Speaker 1: orders to highlight corruption. However, the Portfolio Committee says there

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Speaker 1: are a few problems. On the line is Young de Villiers.

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Speaker 1: He's the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service

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Speaker 1: and Administration. John High, Good morning, welcome to seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and to your listeners as well.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go through this. What are the headwinds

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Speaker 1: in facing lifestyle audits because they so important.

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Speaker 3: Percent correct.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the most important things to just

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Speaker 2: understand from the listeners perspective is that last or is

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Speaker 2: all about does the lifestyle of the members of the

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Speaker 2: civil service, of the of the government employees, does their

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Speaker 2: lifestyle match their income? And if it doesn't, is corruption

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Speaker 2: involved in the fact that they might be driving cars

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Speaker 2: or having houses or living a lifestyle.

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Speaker 3: That is beyond their means. And I think it's easy.

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Speaker 2: To understand that if you can establish that, if you

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Speaker 2: can look at the government officials and the lives they live, then.

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Speaker 3: You can easily well, then that is one of.

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Speaker 2: The best gateways towards identifying and stopping corruption. So lifestyle

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Speaker 2: audits is basically the process of auditing the members of

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Speaker 2: the civil service and looking at their salaries and at

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Speaker 2: their assets and trying to establish if any corruption is

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Speaker 2: involved in it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but this should be an easy process. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if Ray pitches up next to your office and I'm

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Speaker 1: a dessor's clark and I pitch up in a push, well,

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Speaker 1: that's a problem. What should happen then? And what does

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Speaker 1: happen then?

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Speaker 3: Yes, in that in that case it would probably be easy.

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Speaker 2: But but I think the if you, if you, if

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Speaker 2: you can think about it in the following way, it's

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Speaker 2: it's actually very sophisticated corruption.

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Speaker 3: So so the government officials. And this is really something

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Speaker 3: to just mention.

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Speaker 2: The four majority of government officials are are not corrupt.

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Speaker 2: It is a small it's a smaller percentage of people

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Speaker 2: who are very sophisticated and have learned in various ways

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Speaker 2: to siphon money out of the state, whether it is

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Speaker 2: by the creation of ghost employees, or whether it is

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Speaker 2: by just good old supply chain management corruption. But but

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Speaker 2: the methods have become entrenched and the networks have become entrenched,

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Speaker 2: so you would probably find that that a government official

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Speaker 2: will still not arrive in his Porsche to the office,

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Speaker 2: but rather the Porsche will be standing in his in

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Speaker 2: his and his garage at home. And to establish that,

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Speaker 2: you need to go in to their bank statements. You

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Speaker 2: need to understand what cryptocurrency they hold, what cattle they

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Speaker 2: have on farms. You need to understand all of the

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Speaker 2: assets not only of them, but of the immediate family

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Speaker 2: as well. So you can establish is that if that

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Speaker 2: government official has been exposed to corruption or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get down to brass tax. How easy is

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Speaker 1: it to get? Then Number one launched the investigation. Number

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Speaker 1: two get that banking information and also for family members

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Speaker 1: because that's the problem.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so, No, it's proven, it's proven way more difficult

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Speaker 2: than initially thought. So when Lovestal Audits was rolled out

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, and I have just to say

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Speaker 2: this is still a work in progress, so the processes

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Speaker 2: are still being developed. It was foreseen that through the

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Speaker 2: use of what they called ethics officers inside departments, inside

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Speaker 2: government departments, civil servants will voluntarily do declarations and the

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Speaker 2: red flags will then be identified and then physical audits

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Speaker 2: can be done. But it should probably come as no

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Speaker 2: surprise that the self declarations and the ethics officers themselves

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Speaker 2: inside these departments have produced results which basically shows that

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Speaker 2: there's no corruption. Now we know that's not true.

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Speaker 3: So to cut to the.

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Speaker 2: To the chase, what we've seen now is that you

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Speaker 2: need independent auditors like the SIU, the especial investigative users

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Speaker 2: on the Western Cape, they actually use an external lifestyle

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Speaker 2: auditing firm to come in and to have access to

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Speaker 2: govern the employees, to senior management, and to be able

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Speaker 2: to go into their bank accounts and have a look

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Speaker 2: at what's going on there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you have a look at what happened at

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Speaker 1: VBS Mutual Bank and about two point four billion rand,

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Speaker 1: what's just stolen and they walked off of two point

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Speaker 1: four billion rand. But then trying to catch those responsible,

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Speaker 1: some did go to well, don't get me wrong, I

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Speaker 1: wanted two mayors win to jail. But in saying that

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Speaker 1: family members as well and friends and the money was

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Speaker 1: ciphered North to bars and restaurants and all sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: It's such a complicated web. Like you say, we've got

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Speaker 1: to get better at this and more advance in the

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Speaker 1: criminals a hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And it really does start with improving legislation, which falls

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Speaker 2: firmly obviously in our labs and the members of Parliament

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Speaker 2: and the members of my committeees of that. So what

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Speaker 2: we are doing as part of our oversight is now

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Speaker 2: as to now constantly engaged with the SIU and of

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Speaker 2: the Department of Public Services and Administration, whose responsibility is

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Speaker 2: to develop legislation and regulations around the lives of public servants.

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Speaker 2: So we have to basically create better laws. We have

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Speaker 2: to make sure that there's a law a regulation that

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Speaker 2: says if you are employed by government, then your immediate

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Speaker 2: family members are all so subject to lifestyle audits and

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Speaker 2: you are subject to lifetal audits and you have to

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Speaker 2: not not you may you must produce three years worth

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Speaker 2: of bank statements and an asset and liability register of yourself.

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Speaker 2: So in short, we are we we are now seeing

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Speaker 2: that we need to improve legislation. That's where it starts.

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Speaker 2: That's we need to start to empower the SIU and

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Speaker 2: external auditors to go into these government official lives and

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Speaker 2: actually have a proper transparent look at what's happening with

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Speaker 2: their lifestyles.

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Speaker 1: Because certain politicians as well their sons and daughters also

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Speaker 1: benefit from tenders and the government contracts and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Shourely that plays into it as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I mean it's it's a well known fact

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Speaker 2: that a lot of the corruption starts with the politicians

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Speaker 2: and is then enforced by by government officials. So they

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Speaker 2: are they are working together to whether it is a

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Speaker 2: tender or.

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Speaker 3: Where that it is the creation of.

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Speaker 2: Ghost employees, whatever the form that the corruption takes, often

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Speaker 2: politicians are involved in it because the work of politicians,

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Speaker 2: one of the most important things we have to do

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Speaker 2: is oversight. But if if, if the oversight is compromised,

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Speaker 2: and you know, this really does go back to to

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Speaker 2: ca the deployment over the previous.

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Speaker 3: Thirty years as well.

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Speaker 2: If the politicians employ the right people for corruption inside

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Speaker 2: their departments, then they start colluding with each other.

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Speaker 3: Then there's no oversight and then you get corruption.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And as we stand at the moment, how easy

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Speaker 1: is it to institute a lifestyle order?

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Speaker 2: No, it is It's not easy at all because mostly

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Speaker 2: at the moment when the department does it, they rely

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Speaker 2: on the honesty and of employees to come forth and

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Speaker 2: do their declarations. Now that's an obvious problem. What we've

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Speaker 2: seen is that when the when the President gives and

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Speaker 2: he has done this before, when gives a proclamation to

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Speaker 2: the s i U to go into a department, then

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Speaker 2: suddenly their powers are strengthened, and then they don't have

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Speaker 2: to ask questions. Then they can they can go in,

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Speaker 2: they can draw bank statements, they can ask the tough questions,

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Speaker 2: and they don't need permission. And that is what the

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Speaker 2: committee has said. We ultimately need to move towards we

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Speaker 2: need through through empowered legislation and through the use of

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Speaker 2: technology and through the SARS the you know, the mutual

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Speaker 2: cooperation of SARS and Home Affairs. We need to be mean.

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Speaker 2: We need to create automated systems that automatically go into

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Speaker 2: into the lives and into the bank accounts of public

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Speaker 2: officials so that we can have transparency and be sure

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Speaker 2: to cats corruption at its call.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In other words, have a one stop shop. If

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Speaker 1: you have saws and you have banks, and you have

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Speaker 1: everyone together, a command can do that. Where are we

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Speaker 1: with this legislation? What are the timeframes?

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Speaker 2: So we are we will start looking at developing new

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Speaker 2: legislation in twenty six twenty to twenty.

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Speaker 3: Nine, so it's a three year it's a three.

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Speaker 2: Year window under which we will need to develop or

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Speaker 2: improve on the on Palmer which is the Management Act

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Speaker 2: for the for the public service and so so it'll

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Speaker 2: take approximately three years. But that doesn't mean that the

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Speaker 2: investigations are you know, are going nowhere. At the moment,

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Speaker 2: we have the SU involved in various departments and corruption

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Speaker 2: is being investigated and as I said, it is it

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Speaker 2: is still a developing you know, the mythology is still

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Speaker 2: being developed. That's why the legislation only comes from twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six to twenty twenty nine. And we will use

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Speaker 2: what we've what we've learned now and then developed new legislation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look that is a long way off. It does start.

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Speaker 1: It is a long way off. How easy is it

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Speaker 1: to get the SIU involved in an investigation if you

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Speaker 1: think that there has been corruption, well.

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Speaker 3: If you if you look, it should be easy.

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Speaker 2: But it isn't necessarily always so in some departments where

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Speaker 2: where Director General so DJ's and the Minister have worked

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Speaker 2: together and asked the the s i U to come in,

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Speaker 2: and I would all will use Minister Leonschriber of Home

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Speaker 2: Affairs as an example. The Director General and the Minister

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Speaker 2: have worked together, They've asked the SU to come in

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Speaker 2: and a lot of corruption has been has been exposed

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Speaker 2: and we've we're really happy with the results of the

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Speaker 2: lastal orbits being done in Home Affairs, where we all

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Speaker 2: know there has been vast corruption. But if you look

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Speaker 2: at the Minister of Basic Education, so Viegarube, when she

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Speaker 2: engaged her senior team, her Director of General of with

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Speaker 2: about the use of the s i U to do

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Speaker 2: last orders, she was met with massive, massive, uh a

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Speaker 2: fight against it and it went to such a degree

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Speaker 2: that that that it seems now that the officials in

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Speaker 2: her department has briefed parliamentary members in her committee against

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Speaker 2: giving giving them information to try and dis creditors to

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Speaker 2: try and stop this process from happening. Now you only

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Speaker 2: have to ask the question why would someone want to

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Speaker 2: stop life thought orders happening in a department, and the

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Speaker 2: obvious answer must be because there's corruption, then.

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Speaker 1: No, they're guilty. In other words, what happens in a

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Speaker 1: situation like that, you go straight to the president is

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Speaker 1: what do you approach the hawks? There's got to be

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Speaker 1: a way around us, not just to have a lifestyle audit,

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Speaker 1: but to say that probably a crime is being committed.

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Speaker 1: Yet what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think you have to firstly, as if

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Speaker 2: you're a minister, that you have to you have to

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Speaker 2: push hard to we call the secondment, to succomb the

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Speaker 2: s i U or an external investigator order to come

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Speaker 2: into the department. And then you need to push hard

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Speaker 2: against those who are pushing against you.

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Speaker 3: So I mean that this is this is the thing.

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Speaker 3: You know. People who comply easily are probably the innocent people,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: So so it's almost a clear indication that the civil

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Speaker 2: servants who are pushing back, that's where your focus needs

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Speaker 2: to be. And then you need to to to to

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Speaker 2: to go in and and use all the all the

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Speaker 2: leverage you have to to make them to make them comply.

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Speaker 2: If they don't, then I think that's where you need

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Speaker 2: to ultimately go to go to the president president and

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Speaker 2: ask for a proclamation to go in there, which will

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Speaker 2: then give you the ultimate dower that that nobody can

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Speaker 2: can stand in the way of.

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Speaker 1: And you are the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on

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Speaker 1: Public Service and Administration.

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Speaker 2: How bad?

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Speaker 1: How bad is it? How widespread is the problem? How

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Speaker 1: urgent do we need these lifestyle audits?

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Speaker 3: Well, I almost want to say it's it's bad because

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Speaker 3: we don't know how bad it is.

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Speaker 2: And that's that really is is the answer. It's the

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Speaker 2: fact that we are we are now in the Government

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Speaker 2: of National Unity, really pushing these these last orders and

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Speaker 2: they haven't been done for the last thirty years, means

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Speaker 2: that it is probably really bad. It means that the

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Speaker 2: corruption networks are entrenched, and that that for thirty years

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Speaker 2: under the previous government, officials have have had the chance

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Speaker 2: to refine their techniques and to really become comfortable in

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Speaker 2: their corruption networks. So it is urgent, and it is

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Speaker 2: serious and and we know we I mean every every

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Speaker 2: rand that is stolen from the state, every rand of

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Speaker 2: taxpayer money that that that is is going into corrupt

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Speaker 2: officials pockets, was a rand that was meant to to

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Speaker 2: build a road, to upkeep a hospital, you know, to

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Speaker 2: to to to to give food programs, to show their children.

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Speaker 3: And improve their education.

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Speaker 2: So it really is serious. We we as a state.

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Speaker 2: We can't afford this government count afford to to waste money.

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Speaker 2: We need to reinvest as much of our money into

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Speaker 2: our people, into our infrastructure, because that's the only way

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Speaker 2: we're going to get the economy going and create jobs.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely yonder Willias, thank you so much. He's the chairperson

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Speaker 1: of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration seven

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Speaker 1: oh two Land reaction to what you just heard there.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like this is long overdue.