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Speaker 1: Seven o two, we get breakfast psychological wellness, we've doctor

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Speaker 1: corci Giani, it's not of psychological wellness.

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Speaker 2: And this morning you were speaking about, you know, something

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Speaker 2: that's really I suppose it's an important conversation to have

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Speaker 2: a difficult one as well for the parents and for children.

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Speaker 2: If you're a parent that's had to give tough love,

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Speaker 2: how did you go about doing that? But also if

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Speaker 2: you're a child that had to receive, will be on

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Speaker 2: the receiving end of tough love. I only hear about

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Speaker 2: your experiences there. It's an approach that many parents, you know,

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Speaker 2: go on, particularly as sometimes it's a final or a

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Speaker 2: last resort, and sometimes parents don't know how to go

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Speaker 2: about giving tough love, what it is, and how to

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Speaker 2: know when it's time for tough love. For that conversation,

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Speaker 2: we have the resident clinical psychologist, Doctor Corciciado is joining

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Speaker 2: us now on the line.

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Speaker 1: A doctor COSI, good morning, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: your time.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, good morning. Quite a topic for today, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: It is? It is?

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Speaker 2: And I've been you're thinking about it, just thinking about

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Speaker 2: how we speak about it so loosely.

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Speaker 4: Right, you'll hear I say, yeah.

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Speaker 2: We throw it into our lingo quite a bit, but

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Speaker 2: we never really take time to pause and really think

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Speaker 2: about what it is.

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Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, and that was my starting point exactly, that

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Speaker 3: it just rolls off the town in our language.

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Speaker 4: We just kind of.

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Speaker 3: Fraid here, and they're very loosely and in a sense

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Speaker 3: that talks to how that has been kind of, you know,

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Speaker 3: drawn into our social repertoire from the formal kind of

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Speaker 3: perhaps the academic space and the formal PEPs professional psychological

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Speaker 3: space into everyday parlance. And and this is what tends

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Speaker 3: to happen, you know, in the in the overlap and

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Speaker 3: in the interaction and the intersectionality. And it needs to

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Speaker 3: be that between the formal academic space, which can be

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Speaker 3: very isolating because it then only for us we lect

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Speaker 3: few that know what this means in the clinical space,

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Speaker 3: whereas the greater society gets left out of it. And

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Speaker 3: the more that language kind of encroaches and comes into

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Speaker 3: the ordinary people's lives and spaces, the more people have

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Speaker 3: a repertoire with which to make sense of their experiences.

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Speaker 3: The challenge, of course, is that it kind of gets diluted,

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Speaker 3: right because there is no formal you know, boundaries and

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Speaker 3: lexicon for it, it gets diluted, and it gets thrown

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Speaker 3: every so often, ever.

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Speaker 4: And ever so loosely.

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Speaker 3: So, and if we start there and say, what do

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Speaker 3: we generally refer to in society when we talk about

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Speaker 3: a tough love, And you've kind of already languaged it

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Speaker 3: in saying it's a final, generally last straws. It's the

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Speaker 3: final resort, and it's generally in that relationship, you know,

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Speaker 3: parent child kind of relationship, and it is associated with

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Speaker 3: harmful behavior. So the intent of it is to is

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Speaker 3: to motivate behavior change by discouraging or eliminating or discovering

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Speaker 3: discouraging the other person or encouraging them to eliminate harmful behavior.

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Speaker 3: And by nature then it becomes a reactive type of thing,

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Speaker 3: and it is a last raw reaction, or at least

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Speaker 3: it is meant to be.

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Speaker 4: It is when a person says.

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Speaker 3: I'm done, I'm spent. I have tried everything and none

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Speaker 3: of it has worked, So this is my last resort.

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Speaker 3: They're saying, I'm drawing a boundary, and I'm drawing a

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Speaker 3: double edged or a double sided boundary that says I'm

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Speaker 3: wanting to protect you from yourself because obviously this behavior

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Speaker 3: is harmful to you, right and by implication, because of

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Speaker 3: my association with you, it is equally harmful to me

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Speaker 3: or to us, you know, the greater family, so to speak,

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Speaker 3: it is equally harmful to us. It could either be physical,

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Speaker 3: you know, when somebody engages in certain behavior, harmful behavior,

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Speaker 3: they then perhaps become violent, and not just physical but psychological.

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Speaker 3: You know what it means, the distress that they have

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Speaker 3: to live with and the emotional toll.

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Speaker 4: That it takes on them.

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Speaker 3: And therefore they are saying, we are setting this boundary

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Speaker 3: because there's actually an overlap between these two worlds and

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Speaker 3: none of them are benefiting from this behavior. So it

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Speaker 3: is about encouraging them. It is saying we will no

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Speaker 3: longer be part of your life because your life involves

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Speaker 3: this harmful behavior that harms you and in turn harms us.

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Speaker 4: And therefore, you know, it is.

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Speaker 3: About saying we will no longer be co creators, co participants,

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Speaker 3: enablers and accomplices in this behavior weather by any means possible.

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Speaker 3: So it could be a number of things. It could

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Speaker 3: say we are cutting ties with you, and which is

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Speaker 3: the absence?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I know.

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Speaker 2: Usually we speak about tough love on this you know,

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Speaker 2: grand scale, particularly with adulty or older children. But I've

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Speaker 2: been wondering, doctor, because the whether they are degrees to

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Speaker 2: this tough love thing. For example, a few days ago,

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Speaker 2: I saw something online about going about parenting even your

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Speaker 2: young children, and how children come out differently or grow

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Speaker 2: up to be different types of adults based on you know,

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Speaker 2: some parents who might want to intervene immediately even when

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Speaker 2: children struggle as they are young, you know, want to

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Speaker 2: come to their rescue. And then they are the parents

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Speaker 2: that almost want to stand to the side, and even

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Speaker 2: though it hurts you to see your child struggle, you

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Speaker 2: want to let them figure out, figure figure it out.

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Speaker 1: And I've been wondering, is that a degree of tough love.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say so, And which is why I wanted

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Speaker 3: us to to distinguish tough love and.

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Speaker 4: How it's usually used to what we are actually.

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Speaker 3: Saying and are in a sense advocating right when it

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Speaker 3: comes to the younger children in the absence of enhnce.

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Speaker 3: An important part of the definition of tough love is

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Speaker 3: that it is about self harm or harmful behavior, and

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Speaker 3: it is about intended you know, to It is intended

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Speaker 3: to to to to impose consequences.

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Speaker 4: It is punitive.

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Speaker 3: It is imposing consequences with the intention of, you know,

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Speaker 3: motivating and with the intention of inflicting some form of pain.

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Speaker 3: And that form that pain will come from things such

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Speaker 3: as cutting ties, which is that we will no longer be,

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Speaker 3: we will no longer care, no longer support. They cut resources,

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Speaker 3: some resources or all resources, and some of it may

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Speaker 3: include leave the house, we no longer want you here,

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Speaker 3: you know, because perhaps it has some physical or consequences

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Speaker 3: or even just emotional and psychological and not necessarily and

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Speaker 3: they're saying we are no longer be part of it,

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Speaker 3: and it is all of that is intended to inflict

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Speaker 3: pain as a form of motivating a rethink and a

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Speaker 3: cessation and a turnaround, you know, for it to be

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Speaker 3: a turning point towards the right behavior. And it says ultimately,

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Speaker 3: if you.

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Speaker 4: Choose this path, you're on your own.

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Speaker 3: And I guess in a sense it is about kind

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Speaker 3: of invoking that thing in us as human beings to

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Speaker 3: say we are social, relational beings.

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Speaker 4: We are never you know, loners.

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Speaker 3: We don't thrive in isolation, and not just in isolation,

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Speaker 3: but a rejection and an abandonment being.

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Speaker 4: Thrown out into the world on your own, with.

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Speaker 3: No place to fall back, no sanctuary, whether that sanctuary

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Speaker 3: is someone to call, someone I know cares about me,

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Speaker 3: someone I can reach out to, and someone I know

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Speaker 3: who proactively is in my corner. That is counter the

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Speaker 3: human what need in order to fill alive in order

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Speaker 3: to not only just survive, because it throws us actually

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Speaker 3: into survival mode, which is as human beings who want

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Speaker 3: more to thrive rather than just survive.

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Speaker 4: So you know that's kind of the the bubble of

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Speaker 4: tough love.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and how do you know how do you know

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Speaker 2: that it's time now for tough love? You know, because

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Speaker 2: I suppose it does sound to me as I said

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Speaker 2: that as a final response. You've tried everything, You've done everything,

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Speaker 2: and now you're you know, you're saying I need to

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Speaker 2: do this thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do.

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Speaker 4: It at my words end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what else to do anything.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but how do you throw in the towel? Yes,

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Speaker 1: you're throwing it in the towel. It's a final response.

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Speaker 2: How do you know that this is now the time

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Speaker 2: for me to apply to love and stop trying to

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Speaker 2: save this person from themselves through other methods.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess in a sense I want to say,

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Speaker 3: how long is the piece of strings? Yeah? And I'm

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Speaker 3: not one that suggests a very dichotomous way of looking

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Speaker 3: at it as an either, oh, a black or white thing,

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Speaker 3: because there's certainly room for it. And you will find

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Speaker 3: enough stories out there in the social space of people

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Speaker 3: that said that became the turning point for me, you know.

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Speaker 3: And by the same token, you will find people that

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Speaker 3: say that became the turning point for me. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I threw myself in because nobody cared anymore.

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Speaker 4: So what was the point of caring?

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Speaker 3: If no one cares for me? You know, they write

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Speaker 3: themselves off because they've been written off by society, tea,

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Speaker 3: and end up perhaps in the streets, so to speak,

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Speaker 3: if nothing worse, right, abandoning themselves because they have been abundoned,

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Speaker 3: rejecting themselves because they have been rejected. So it's a

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Speaker 3: very very very fragile space and quite a risk to take,

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Speaker 3: and it was one that I hope and one to believe.

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Speaker 3: No parents in their right minds will take that as

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Speaker 3: the first cause of action. And sometimes it is a

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Speaker 3: cost benefits, you know, assessment that says, could I risk

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Speaker 3: the well being of the.

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Speaker 4: Family on this one person?

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Speaker 3: Right, And yet by the same token there is it's

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Speaker 3: not it's not just a straight line or a very

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Speaker 3: very flat flat surface. Because yes, what often happens in

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Speaker 3: families and family systems theory and approaches teach us this

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Speaker 3: that we can very easily look at the rotten apple,

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Speaker 3: the black sheep of the family, right and and and

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Speaker 3: and throw them out in the dustbin of life without

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Speaker 3: actually necessarily looking at the system, because they are what

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Speaker 3: we usually would call in therapy, the identified patient, the

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Speaker 3: id identified patient is the one that holds the symptoms

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Speaker 3: of the system. It is the one that presents the

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Speaker 3: symptoms of the systems. And what the system then does

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Speaker 3: is that the system points bring us at this person

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Speaker 3: who summitizes the one who who shows up with the

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Speaker 3: symptoms the dysfunction of the family, and and everybody kind

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Speaker 3: of stands aside, absolves themselves and stand on the pedestal

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Speaker 3: and points at this.

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Speaker 4: And we've seen this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I used to work in you know, adolescence

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Speaker 3: ward in my in my internship, and we we end

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Speaker 3: up in the ward with these kids that have to

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Speaker 3: be hospitalized. And yet the people that actually needed are

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Speaker 3: the ones that are outside the system that we are

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Speaker 3: going to have to work with them alone and then

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Speaker 3: put them back in the toxic systems that have put

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Speaker 3: them in the world to begin with.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes have we found in those instances that the

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Speaker 2: tough love makes people worse or it worsens the situation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, indeed, it can't just be the only thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, even if you say, can we get some

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Speaker 3: distance from this harmful behavior, it still needs to have

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Speaker 3: some form of infrastructure around it. So to your point

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Speaker 3: directly to the question, yes, it is often the one

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Speaker 3: that is more likely. And human beings, we are not

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Speaker 3: as simple and straightforward. We cannot just be pigeonholed and

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Speaker 3: say one class one will always equal to that.

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Speaker 4: Not how it works.

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Speaker 3: No one thing will work in the same way for

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Speaker 3: any two people, right because two people are the same,

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Speaker 3: including siblings, No two people are the same. The same

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Speaker 3: thing may have a different effect on another than it will.

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Speaker 3: And so you want to be very deliberate and conscious

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Speaker 3: and alive to what is unfolding in that system even.

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Speaker 4: As you go to that point. So yeah, no, go ahead.

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Speaker 3: So I'm saying that we want to look at tough

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Speaker 3: love and to the point where we're saying, coming back

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Speaker 3: to the identified patients, what is this person telling us

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Speaker 3: about the system? Because there are different roles that different

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Speaker 3: members systemically play in the family. Some are the ones

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Speaker 3: that amplify things. Others are the ones that will, you know,

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Speaker 3: push things under the rug, you know. Others are the

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Speaker 3: ones that will absorb things will land on them because

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Speaker 3: they kind of are very sensitive, it will land on

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Speaker 3: them and they will flag.

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Speaker 4: It for healing, for repay.

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Speaker 3: But if we don't read that system symbolically and just

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Speaker 3: focus on the symptoms, we will end up doing the

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Speaker 3: wrong things that may exacerbate rather than eliminate or at

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Speaker 3: least seek to ameliorate or correct the dysfunction or whatever

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Speaker 3: the issue is.

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Speaker 2: We're talking to doctor Kosygia and they are resident clinical psychologists,

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Speaker 2: and today we're talking about something really really important and

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Speaker 2: that is tough love. Have you been on the receiving

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Speaker 2: end of tough love? Did it do you any good

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Speaker 2: or did it just make you and things worse? Did

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Speaker 2: you find yourself out in the cold and feeling unloved

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Speaker 2: and wanted and how did you respond to that or

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Speaker 2: did it, you know, achieve the results that I think

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Speaker 2: many parents are hoping for, making you reflect, making you rethink,

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Speaker 2: you know, making you, you know, almost come back in

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Speaker 2: and come back to your senses. How did how did

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Speaker 2: you go about experiencing it? And if you're a parent

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Speaker 2: who's had to give tough love, how did you go

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Speaker 2: about doing that?

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Speaker 4: At?

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Speaker 2: Doctor COSSI really making an important point there. Parents sometimes

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Speaker 2: don't reflect on how the systems and their homes might

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Speaker 2: be the problem and and as a result, the children

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Speaker 2: may be reacting to a systemic problem. Get in touch

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Speaker 2: with us, So number two die zre it double one

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Speaker 2: a three or seven oh two or seven to seven

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Speaker 2: oh two one seven.

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Speaker 1: Two, Doctor Cossey, At what point should.

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Speaker 2: Parents, you know, almost reflect and consider whether this tough

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Speaker 2: love thing is working or not?

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Speaker 1: Because you know, once.

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Speaker 2: You've done that, you've kicked either child out of home

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Speaker 2: or you've told them they can't have access to certain things.

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Speaker 2: It's very difficult to come back from that sometimes, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think let's let's, you know, let's go back to

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Speaker 3: that question where we're talking about what is our best

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Speaker 3: starting point in our in parenting, and not just in parenting,

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Speaker 3: but just generally in our behavior and our social rules

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Speaker 3: of engagement, so to speak. So what we want to

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Speaker 3: to to understand is that there is the self for

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Speaker 3: the self, right who you are as an individual to yourself,

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Speaker 3: and who you are in relation to others as a

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Speaker 3: social being. And so very often this is where the

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Speaker 3: friction point comes in. And each one of us comes

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Speaker 3: as a unique being, endowed with our own temperament, so

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Speaker 3: to speak, and and there and and and therefore from

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Speaker 3: the get go we will not react to the same

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Speaker 3: stimulus in the same way, and in in in our upbringing,

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Speaker 3: our early formative years. And this is the word formative

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Speaker 3: is very instructive here, and that it is about how

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Speaker 3: do we shape the self? And in shaping the self,

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Speaker 3: there is no one size fits all, because you would

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Speaker 3: be if that were the case, we would invariably be

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Speaker 3: forcing squares into circles. And in saying so, yes, we

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Speaker 3: may need to, because that's what socialization is about, right.

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Speaker 3: Socialization is about how do we shape this person into

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Speaker 3: being a functional member of society and.

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Speaker 4: What does that mean?

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Speaker 3: It is about being aware of themselves and honoring who

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Speaker 3: they are as the individual. And yet that that does

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Speaker 3: not come at the expense of others. And our starting

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Speaker 3: point is that children are mostly by nature, and it

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Speaker 3: is part of our biological endowment that the human brain

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Speaker 3: develops in time and and neurological plasticity of the brain

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Speaker 3: tells us that there's a reciprocal relationship between the development

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Speaker 3: of the human brain and the social interaction.

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Speaker 4: Right, so the nature nurture.

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Speaker 3: Dynamic is constantly, you know, unfolding it. There's a constant

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Speaker 3: in a relationship between the two. They ebb and flow

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Speaker 3: with each other, in that the brain shapes what we do,

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Speaker 3: and then what we do shapes how the brain develops

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Speaker 3: and what we do, whether evolutionally on your own or

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Speaker 3: as part of how others in your social space shape

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Speaker 3: your behavior right and manage how you behave And so therefore,

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Speaker 3: if we start off by thinking about children being, life

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Speaker 3: revolves around them, and as it necessarily does, because we

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Speaker 3: are born into a helpless vulnerability, and we need the

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Speaker 3: protection and the care and love and support of significant

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Speaker 3: others in our lives for us to survive and thrive.

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Speaker 4: And therefore we are born into.

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Speaker 3: And therefore what is written into us is that when

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Speaker 3: we cry, people respond, right, And therefore it writes into

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Speaker 3: us that yeah, this is about you, dude. So just

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Speaker 3: do what you want, make your cry, do your thing,

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Speaker 3: and they shall all dance, and they do in life

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Speaker 3: they do, right.

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Speaker 4: So who is in charge?

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Speaker 3: The infant is in charge you the end you go

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Speaker 3: marching to their orders and therefore not surprising that they

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Speaker 3: think life revolves around them. And therefore socialization is about

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Speaker 3: evolving from that into saying you are not the only

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Speaker 3: person in life. In fact, you depend on others, and

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Speaker 3: so at some point you also have to reciprocate their

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Speaker 3: investment in you.

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Speaker 2: Oh, doctor Cossey, so much to process. There's so much

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Speaker 2: to think about that. I think for our parents also,

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Speaker 2: you know, the parents that are really are struggling, they

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Speaker 2: don't know what more to do. I think these are

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Speaker 2: important lessons. Let's quickly take a call Lula my you

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Speaker 2: in Winchester Hills and you have a question.

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Speaker 5: Go ahead, hello, ladies, just a quick one. Doctor Cosey,

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Speaker 5: please share what tough love is not. I'm hoping that

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Speaker 5: you're not going to give me tough love by well,

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Speaker 5: I would like to think that eventually we can agree

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Speaker 5: that there's positivity in tough love with met it in

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Speaker 5: the madness, right, But yeah, what is it not.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks, good question, doctor.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And which is what my point was earlier on

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Speaker 3: that tough love is not just a kind of Firstly,

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Speaker 3: before I even say that saying that, I'm not saying

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Speaker 3: there is no room for tough love in this world, right,

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Speaker 3: And and I'm equally saying, how long is a piece

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Speaker 3: of string? Who knows no one human being is the

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Speaker 3: same as another, the same so called tough love, whatever

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Speaker 3: the boundaries are of it, may have a positive or

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Speaker 3: negative consequence on a different human being or at a

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Speaker 3: different time. So it's a much more complex thing than

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Speaker 3: just throwing the key, you know, at the problem and

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Speaker 3: walking away.

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Speaker 5: So we need to have and I would.

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Speaker 3: Say, you know, we want to create a system that

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Speaker 3: helps the persons because what we generally rely on is

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Speaker 3: the person's willpower, and will power is personal motivation, which

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Speaker 3: is what tough love is doing. Tough love is saying,

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Speaker 3: this is your social capital that are putting pressure on you.

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Speaker 3: So it's a type of peer pressure on you to

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Speaker 3: then influence your personal motivation. But equally important is the

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Speaker 3: other time make that we often don't include. And I

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Speaker 3: would I propose a six source framework. And I often

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Speaker 3: talk about this that human behavior is fundamental. Drivers are

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Speaker 3: person our motivation and ability.

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Speaker 4: That two need to go together.

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Speaker 3: What we often do is to drive motivation because we

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Speaker 3: just think this person just lets the motivation. We often

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Speaker 3: don't compliment that and invest importantly in the ability side,

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Speaker 3: personal ability and social ability. And hence, I say, from

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Speaker 3: a social systems point of view, we want to say,

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Speaker 3: what is this family system enabling or disabling in this child?

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Speaker 3: And that then puts them in a situation where they

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Speaker 3: end up resorting to this because what we often will

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Speaker 3: say to children, don't do this, don't do this right?

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Speaker 3: But do we tell them what they must do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, hi, doctor, you're gonna have to leave it there,

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Speaker 2: but thank you so much your insights.

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Speaker 1: They I think we can go on and on and.

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Speaker 4: On, right.

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Speaker 3: I hope we've thrown enough crumbs on the path absolutely

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Speaker 3: to give some sort of frame away in which people

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Speaker 3: can at least have a look and reflect on these things.

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Speaker 2: And this is definitely the type of conversation that you

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Speaker 2: revisit from time, you know, to time, just to almost

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Speaker 2: share notes, write compare notes about how you are doing it?

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Speaker 1: Am I doing it right? Am I not? But I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate your Insights. Thank you so much for your.

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Speaker 4: Time, absolute pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Right that's doctor Cocchia and if she's the resident clinical

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Speaker 2: psychologist on the show, and you'll definitely be hearing more

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Speaker 2: from her next week