Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven
Speaker 1: oh two.
Speaker 2: Let's walk little. The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is
Speaker 2: brought to you by Abster Corporates and Investment Banking. Abstrus
Speaker 2: a proud lead sponsor of B twenty South Africa twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five. Good evening, Welcome to the program. I'm Stephen Curtis.
Speaker 2: Lots to get through this evening, we'll stalk. I was
Speaker 2: kind of not at all surprised to see some very
Speaker 2: angry words coming from the ANC National Executive Committee meeting
Speaker 2: over the weekend. And are not just talking about the
Speaker 2: fact they didn't like the venue. All they wanted Coca
Speaker 2: Cola and not Kingsley Kola according to that Sunday Times
Speaker 2: Leads story. I'm talking, of course about the Monetary Policy
Speaker 2: Committee and their decision from the Reserve Bank to effectively
Speaker 2: give us a three percent inflation target. Well more on
Speaker 2: that in just a moment. Both Gene Scummann and Duma Corbole,
Speaker 2: both of them on hold for you. We'll talk also
Speaker 2: in the next couple of moments about what we expect
Speaker 2: would be the job losses caused by the amount of
Speaker 2: clothing that is being sold in South Africa by Shane
Speaker 2: and Temu. I mean, one of the key questions to
Speaker 2: all of this is why are they able to make
Speaker 2: clothes for a cheaper price than us? And there are
Speaker 2: lots of very important answers to that question. Our labor
Speaker 2: laws are different, the way in which people work, the
Speaker 2: resources around us, all sorts of things are very very different.
Speaker 2: But I think it's an important question if we want
Speaker 2: to actually take them on, we have to know why
Speaker 2: that is. Now. Look, I'm not convinced you get value
Speaker 2: for money if you buy cheaper things, and I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people are actually making the decision to
Speaker 2: spend money essentially on clothes made here because they know
Speaker 2: they'll last longer and over time the value is better.
Speaker 2: But if you ever only got that he ran and
Speaker 2: you need to buy a T shirt for your child,
Speaker 2: well you don't have many options. And I think that
Speaker 2: is kind of what's happening twenty five minutes from now.
Speaker 2: Also a lot to come around Africa, the cost of
Speaker 2: capital in Africa. We're always talking about development projects in Africa,
Speaker 2: how much capital costs, and then of course the role
Speaker 2: that a ratings agencies playing this. I wonder if you've
Speaker 2: ever done this, actually gone through your monthly or sort
Speaker 2: of annual bills, gone through your credit card perhaps and
Speaker 2: worked out how much it really costs you over time
Speaker 2: to order food to be delivered to you. I mean
Speaker 2: from the beginning of the pandemic and maybe a little
Speaker 2: bit before that, there's been an explosion in home delivery.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about your mister D's, your uber eats at
Speaker 2: things like that, and if you look at the hidden costs,
Speaker 2: and if you do it, say twice or three or
Speaker 2: four or five or six or gosh, ten times a month,
Speaker 2: the cost really adds up. Wendy Nola's been looking at that.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you have a view. I know you have
Speaker 2: a view on how much that's costing you or someone
Speaker 2: you know or dare I say, a younger person in
Speaker 2: your family. I'm sure they will be the culprit. I
Speaker 2: mean some people sort of live like that. There's a
Speaker 2: famous sort of news twenty four story years ago of
Speaker 2: I think mister D delivering the same thing to the
Speaker 2: same person as ordered for years. I mean it was
Speaker 2: a pizza or something the same kind. I mean, look,
Speaker 2: if you if you know what you like, and you
Speaker 2: like what you know, why I argue with it, but
Speaker 2: have you done the calculation perhaps, and don't forget your
Speaker 2: extra special shape shifter this evening July in Louisville. An
Speaker 2: unbelievable career starting in a very small Roman Catholic school
Speaker 2: outside ms Vingo in Zimbabwe. I mean he ended up
Speaker 2: studying at Columbia. I mean there's a story there. July
Speaker 2: and Louisville. Of course, the outgoing I suppose now I think,
Speaker 2: I say, the former CEO. I think that's right of
Speaker 2: Tungela Resources. We're looking forward to meeting him and seeing
Speaker 2: him in our studio in about an hour and seventeen
Speaker 2: minutes from now. Looking forward to your views tonight. Oh
Speaker 2: double one double A three oh seven two two one
Speaker 2: four four six five six seven and seven two seven
Speaker 2: oh two one seven oh two. The Money Show with
Speaker 2: Stephen krudis live on ninety two seven and one six FM,
Speaker 2: streaming on the Prime Media Plus.
Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.
Speaker 2: Well, the first signs of what I think is an
Speaker 2: inevitable pushback to the Reserve Bank's decision to aim for
Speaker 2: the lower end of the Monetary Policy Committee's inflation target.
Speaker 2: Those first signs coming through in the last twenty four
Speaker 2: hours senior A and C figures, including the head of
Speaker 2: its Economic Transformation Committee, the Deputy Minister Zuko good Limpi,
Speaker 2: saying that the A and c's National Executive Committee was
Speaker 2: very angry with the bank's decision. Effectively, now our inflation
Speaker 2: target is three percent. Technically, of course, as you know,
Speaker 2: the decision should really be made by the Finance Minster Goguana.
Speaker 2: We start tonight with the economist at Citybank, Genus Schuman.
Speaker 2: You and a good evening. This kind of reaction was inevitable.
Speaker 2: But we have a situation now where the Reserve Bank
Speaker 2: Governor and the Finance Minister seem to have different views
Speaker 2: on a vital issue. What kind of signal does this send?
Speaker 3: Good evening, Stephen. This is a turning into quite a
Speaker 3: consensuous issue in South Africa. So let me say that
Speaker 3: I think we all need to take a step back
Speaker 3: and agree. And I do believe that the Finance Minister
Speaker 3: and the Governor do agree on one thing is that
Speaker 3: high inflation for South Africa will stop it from being
Speaker 3: able to grow. High inflation or too high inslation will
Speaker 3: stop consumers from being able to spend, but particularly your
Speaker 3: lower income consumers because they are far more vulnerable to
Speaker 3: inflation than they are interest rates. However, we've heard the
Speaker 3: governor since twenty twenty one talk about the virtue of
Speaker 3: targeting something lower than four and a half percent. Now,
Speaker 3: there wasn't a formal change to the inflation target. If
Speaker 3: you think about it, the range still fits a three
Speaker 3: to six percent, and that's what's written into the constitution
Speaker 3: protect the currency, and according to all the documentation, there's
Speaker 3: a three to six percent range.
Speaker 4: Prior to the.
Speaker 3: Current governor, we had governors who preferred to target numbers
Speaker 3: just below six And when les Lecha Kaknago came in
Speaker 3: some time into his first term, he said, well, you know,
Speaker 3: four and a half percent makes more sense to us.
Speaker 3: We think lower inslation is beneficial to the economy. And
Speaker 3: I do believe he's absolutely right. Lower inflation is beneficial
Speaker 3: to an economy, particularly when you have so many low
Speaker 3: income consumers. The thing now, however, is that they've just
Speaker 3: changed their preference. Instead of targeting the middle of that
Speaker 3: official range, they now want to target the bottom. And
Speaker 3: where that becomes so complicated is what we see almost twofold. Firstly,
Speaker 3: you've got the fact that Generally people are worried that
Speaker 3: if you aren't able to achieve the inflation target that
Speaker 3: the South Africa Reserve Bank sets, they are known to
Speaker 3: be hawkish and they will then have to hike interest
Speaker 3: rates in order to achieve it. Hiking interest rate to
Speaker 3: something that no one really likes to see means your
Speaker 3: debt is more expensive, and naturally that's what generally people
Speaker 3: want to avoid. But I do think there is some
Speaker 3: misconception there. If you listen to the SOB, we do
Speaker 3: believe three percent is achievable the time, and they've said
Speaker 3: that they will be very tolerant of trying to get
Speaker 3: to this three percent over the next years. But the
Speaker 3: second channel, which you've now asked about, is the decision making,
Speaker 3: the politics behind all of this. And naturally, yes, I
Speaker 3: can understand how the Finance Minister would want to clarify
Speaker 3: the position of National Treasury in terms of who actually
Speaker 3: sets the inflation target, because he's probably being asked a
Speaker 3: heap from everyone that, well, we thought it was you
Speaker 3: that was supposed to make the announcement, and now he
Speaker 3: has to explain that they actually haven't officially changed the
Speaker 3: inflation target and it simply just a preference.
Speaker 2: I suppose the argument could be from the Reserve Bank,
Speaker 2: we're giving the minister space to actually make the announcement.
Speaker 2: We're just preparing the ground a little bit.
Speaker 3: Well in a way, absolutely. I mean they have been
Speaker 3: very transparent and you know, the South Africa Reserve Bank
Speaker 3: is just known for being so transparent and independent and
Speaker 3: very vocal. And they said to us that there is
Speaker 3: a window of opportunity here where inflation is already at
Speaker 3: three percent, and if they start to target three percent
Speaker 3: with a view to only achieve it in the future,
Speaker 3: that they do it right now, the benefits that this
Speaker 3: economy will receive are so much more than if they
Speaker 3: try and do this at a later stage. But of course,
Speaker 3: you know, we're going to have to wait and see.
Speaker 3: And I do think there is a window. You know,
Speaker 3: we've heard from a finance minister. It's not as that
Speaker 3: we're going to get to the m mtvp is later
Speaker 3: on this IEUR and suddenly receive a new inflation target.
Speaker 3: It's not even a guarantee that will get their next
Speaker 3: February and receive a new inflation target. These things do
Speaker 3: take time. But we told the work is being done
Speaker 3: and we're told that there are merits in targeting lower inflation.
Speaker 3: The National Treasuries Macro Policy Review from twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: said inflation targeting works and that there is merit to
Speaker 3: explore a lower target genis common.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Economist at City Bank listening to that,
Speaker 2: DUMA and economists and research associates at the so SO
Speaker 2: Policy Initiative, Dummer, good evening. You have a very different
Speaker 2: view on this.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think most South Africans agree that the governor
Speaker 4: was totally out of court order and unilaterally announced a
Speaker 4: new monetary policy, a three percent target number one, and
Speaker 4: he's trying to bully South Africa and the government into
Speaker 4: accepting the three percent target. Now where I you know,
Speaker 4: like right now, it's irrelevant whether you think it's a
Speaker 4: good thing or the bad thing. Everywhere in the world,
Speaker 4: every central bank in the world does not have political
Speaker 4: or goal independence. Political or goal independence is set by
Speaker 4: democratic processes. Now, this central bank governor has decided to
Speaker 4: implement this three percent target without informing the President, without
Speaker 4: getting the approval of the Cabinet, without getting approval of
Speaker 4: the other members of the GNU and National Treasury, and
Speaker 4: I think that's totally out of court order. I don't
Speaker 4: understand why isn't such a rush. He must wait for
Speaker 4: the democratic process to play itself out.
Speaker 2: Okay, but if we've had and as Gina reminds us,
Speaker 2: if we've had it has not always been the case
Speaker 2: that the Reserve Bank has targeted at the midpoint of
Speaker 2: three to six percent. We've had people targeting and being
Speaker 2: very comfortable with inflation just below six percent. If someone
Speaker 2: were interpreted three to six percent is just below six percent.
Speaker 2: What's wrong with targeting well just above three percent? I mean,
Speaker 2: if it's good one way, it must beak at the other.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's not his call. It's for us to
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it wasn't the call
Speaker 2: of the of the previous Reserve Bank governor who tolerated
Speaker 2: higher inflation either, is my point.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, But but the point is there wasn't a debate
Speaker 4: at the time about introducing a new target and to
Speaker 4: what most Souther Africans maybe seemed reasonable the mid range
Speaker 4: of the target. Now you're going to the short to
Speaker 4: the bottom of the target and setting effectively a new
Speaker 4: policy for the country. And it's none of his business.
Speaker 4: He must stay in his lane. Yeah, the second thing
Speaker 4: I want to say. The second thing I want to
Speaker 4: say is that you know that if you look at
Speaker 4: the last twenty five years inflation targeting, and I've looked
Speaker 4: at the wholes in five years, there's never been a
Speaker 4: situation where there's excess demand in the economy. Every single
Speaker 4: time when inflation goes up, it's got to do with
Speaker 4: things that are out of our control most of the time,
Speaker 4: supply side shocks, and interest rates are quite frankly useless
Speaker 4: in terms of supply side shocks. The interest rates, I mean,
Speaker 4: the inflation coming down now has got nothing to do
Speaker 4: with monetary policy settings. It's to do with supply side
Speaker 4: shocks working themselves out of the system. So using interest rates,
Speaker 4: some people say it's a bluntitude. I say, it's a
Speaker 4: totally useless tube in the sense that it's equivalent of
Speaker 4: prescribing water to address a broken leg.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I get that, But any other
Speaker 2: central banks adopted inflation targeting roughly the same sort of time,
Speaker 2: from kind of the late nineties into the early two thousands,
Speaker 2: we were one of those, and inflation until I suppose
Speaker 2: the pandemic was kind of under control compared to the
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, for example, in most parts of the world,
Speaker 2: including here, but.
Speaker 4: There wasn't The reason for inflation behind control was to
Speaker 4: do with the China factor. It's got nothing to do
Speaker 4: with most cases of the monetary policy settings. And that's
Speaker 4: what happens. It was, you know, China exporting cheap goods
Speaker 4: to the rest of the world. That is the biggest
Speaker 4: driver of the lower inflation. And this is my point.
Speaker 4: We learned during the pandemic, when I mean inflation went
Speaker 4: up and down throughout the world at exactly the same time,
Speaker 4: we peaked at the same time as the US a
Speaker 4: month later, and that shows that the drivers of inflation
Speaker 4: are not We're not domestic during the pandemic. It's got
Speaker 4: to do with rising oil prices, exchange rates and things
Speaker 4: that I've been talking about. So we need to re
Speaker 4: visit this whole issue of inflation targeting in my view,
Speaker 4: because we've got a prime lending rate of seven point
Speaker 4: five percent in an economy that's going to grow by
Speaker 4: one less than one percent this year. What logic is
Speaker 4: that it's one of the highest prime lending rates in
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 2: Here, Duma, thank you very much. Indeed, Duma orbule An
Speaker 2: economist and research associated at the Social Policy Initiative. Well,
Speaker 2: you've heard of both from him and from Ginas Schumann,
Speaker 2: two sides of quite a complicated coin.
Speaker 1: What have Stephen on seventy two seven oh two one
Speaker 1: seven oh two.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure you or someone you know, someone in
Speaker 2: your family is currently wearing a product that's been made
Speaker 2: by shean ortemu suggestion today that if it goes on
Speaker 2: like this, we could actually lose around thirty four thousand
Speaker 2: jobs in our clothing industry. The study commissioned by the
Speaker 2: Localization Support Fund. Eustace Maschambia is the CEO of Proudly
Speaker 2: Essay Eustace Good Evening. I mean, we know these companies
Speaker 2: is producing clothes much more cheaply than our companies. Clearly
Speaker 2: they haven't quite an impact on our textile industry.
Speaker 5: They definitely are, and I'm glad that we were able
Speaker 5: to get the Localization Support Fun the ministrialits. Can we
Speaker 5: ask them to conduct the paris so that we could
Speaker 5: all determine the impact of this one the economy, So
Speaker 5: the numbers are out. What you mentioned now in terms
Speaker 5: of the thirty four thousand jobs is what will potentially
Speaker 5: happen by twenty if they keep going at the rated
Speaker 5: which they are going currently. They already have taken up,
Speaker 5: you know, about a set of the total online or
Speaker 5: e commerce sales from South Africa. And they've done this
Speaker 5: in just about five years, and it took the other
Speaker 5: players about thirteen years to get to where these two
Speaker 5: players are just in the last four years. So clearly
Speaker 5: their aggression is paying dividends for them, but not doing
Speaker 5: anything for our economy.
Speaker 2: Okay, but I mean we've also seen so I mean,
Speaker 2: I remember five years ago in the start thinking my word,
Speaker 2: our textile industry has got like a year ago. What
Speaker 2: we saw instead was companies like the Machini Group, there
Speaker 2: are others. They started designing making clothes here quite cheaply,
Speaker 2: not as cheaply as the others, but very quickly. I mean,
Speaker 2: that was the big shift of a higher quality than
Speaker 2: Shane and Timil. And haven't they been able to fight
Speaker 2: their way back into the market. That was certainly my understanding. Yes,
Speaker 2: Shane and Timo have taken market share and they'll probably
Speaker 2: keep it, but we have seen South African producers actually
Speaker 2: kind of fighting their way back in.
Speaker 5: No, definitely, I think, you know, the social partner's been government,
Speaker 5: the organized labor and the unions as well as as
Speaker 5: the retailers coming up with the retail clothing, textile where
Speaker 5: that the master plane has really helped because those targets
Speaker 5: that are contained in the master plan is what everybody's
Speaker 5: working towards in terms of shifting white was previously or
Speaker 5: that especially in the if to ordering it in factors
Speaker 5: in that country. That has really helped in terms of
Speaker 5: ensuring that those factors where you know that have the
Speaker 5: capacity that is required, you know, are given any chance
Speaker 5: to stay alive because once we lose that manufacturing capacity,
Speaker 5: it's gone and we most times we can't get it back.
Speaker 2: No sure, I mean useless. Here's the bigger question, right,
Speaker 2: This is all about price. I mean it is about
Speaker 2: the app gamification of buying all of those things, but
Speaker 2: it is also about the price. We have people who
Speaker 2: are desperate, they're going to spend as little as they
Speaker 2: can and need to spend money on food. They're going
Speaker 2: to find clothes where they can for the children, and
Speaker 2: that means that price matters. And Sheen and Timu produce
Speaker 2: clothes more cheaply than we can. And this is the
Speaker 2: big question why is that?
Speaker 6: So?
Speaker 5: The big thing that we have seen with them, and
Speaker 5: the study touches on some of those aspects, is issues
Speaker 5: around economies of scale. It's issues there are export subsidies
Speaker 5: that I mean, these guys are export tuests from wherever
Speaker 5: they are making these products. They're making the products themselves,
Speaker 5: and I think that's how you phrase it in your introduction.
Speaker 5: These guys are making the products that they're sending to
Speaker 5: all of these countries all over the world. Then that's
Speaker 5: why when the study was done, comparison was done with
Speaker 5: some of the countries that we think, you know, at
Speaker 5: the same level in terms of the developmental agenda. And
Speaker 5: you can see some of them have banned these things
Speaker 5: from coming into their country.
Speaker 2: But I get all that use systems very to interrupted.
Speaker 2: It doesn't answer the question. I mean, I would start
Speaker 2: my answer to the question in a couple of ways.
Speaker 2: One is our infrastructure doesn't work nearly as well as
Speaker 2: the infrastructure around them. Two, and this is an important
Speaker 2: and very complicated point, I don't think they pay their
Speaker 2: workers as much as we pay our workers. Now, I
Speaker 2: don't want lowest salaries for people. At the same time,
Speaker 2: this is a reality. It's a race to the bottom.
Speaker 5: No, but you see, the other challenge that we must
Speaker 5: not ignore is the fact that we can't advocate for
Speaker 5: low labor. It's similar to what they have. I mean
Speaker 5: some of the so some of these things are made
Speaker 5: in sweat shops. I mean the ILO has reports on
Speaker 5: these in terms of the kind of working conditions in
Speaker 5: which this products are made. So we can compete when
Speaker 5: it comes to that. What we can tie and do
Speaker 5: is without going the aggressive, without saying they must not
Speaker 5: come in like they've done in other countries, is to
Speaker 5: ramp up our efforts of getting Sificans to be able
Speaker 5: to access localimate products. Hence the introduction of an online
Speaker 5: store by partly so can the shop Priday in clear
Speaker 5: accessibility of locallymate products. Make sure that consumers know that
Speaker 5: they can go to places where they can find products
Speaker 5: for for all spheres of society and for all sectors.
Speaker 5: Depending on which ta of products you want to buy.
Speaker 5: If you want to go the low the lower segment,
Speaker 5: you will go lower segment. It might not be the
Speaker 5: cheapest selling table, but you don't have to buy it
Speaker 5: and replace it next week, you know, because the quality
Speaker 5: is so bad that you can't even read because all
Speaker 5: of some of the things that came out of the study,
Speaker 5: So there are other considerations that have to be cleaning
Speaker 5: back consumers when they buy on those platforms.
Speaker 2: Eusters, thanks very much. Indeed. Eustace Mushimbia is the CEO
Speaker 2: of Proudly Essay The Money Show. Chris Stiarent's portfolio manager
Speaker 2: at ninety one Chris, Good Evening. Results out from glen
Speaker 2: Core and one of the many companies, particularly a mining
Speaker 2: company that's been hit quite hard. Bye, well, everything that's
Speaker 2: been going on. I'm talking geopolitically in particular.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Good Evening, Steven, Yeah, glenn Core. I mean they
Speaker 6: had had a production report out. I think we talked
Speaker 6: about that a week or two ago. This is their
Speaker 6: earnings numbers for the first half, little bit light of
Speaker 6: market expectations, although they've reiterated their full year guidance. They've
Speaker 6: been hit by lower col prices and some production problems
Speaker 6: in their copper business in particular. They are reiterating their
Speaker 6: gardens for the year. But they've got a lot to
Speaker 6: do in the second half, and I think you know
Speaker 6: they're earning miss here, giving the market a little bit
Speaker 6: of couse for concern, but also important to announcing today
Speaker 6: that although they'd been looking to move their listing out
Speaker 6: of London and possibly moving a listing to the S
Speaker 6: and P in the US, which the market I think
Speaker 6: had started to discount would be a better environment for
Speaker 6: them potentially to unlock value, particularly within their coal portfolio,
Speaker 6: which attracts continued ESG concerns. Deciding not to move their listing,
Speaker 6: electing not to list on the S and P. I
Speaker 6: don't think they would have found their way into the
Speaker 6: index due to domicile reasons that pushes the index funds
Speaker 6: away from them, and I think that was the key
Speaker 6: decision in.
Speaker 2: Not electing to move their listing. And then Quilt are
Speaker 2: their assets under a management and administration up by six percent?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean a good what looks like a pretty
Speaker 6: good trading update out of Quilt or or first half
Speaker 6: results should I say beating where it matters? I guess
Speaker 6: as it's under manner netflows better than anticipated revenues, perhaps
Speaker 6: a touch light of what the market was looking for.
Speaker 6: But it was a very very choppy quarter if you
Speaker 6: remember all that went on during the quarter, and you
Speaker 6: know they charged their fees based on average assets under
Speaker 6: management and given Liberation Day history onics from the market.
Speaker 6: We did see a very very large draw down during April,
Speaker 6: so that's quite possible that that was the source of
Speaker 6: the small revenue miss, but a big beat on the
Speaker 6: coast front, and as a result of that, a good
Speaker 6: earnings beat, also indicating that the ongoing regulatory review is
Speaker 6: going well. They believe that the provisions they've taken for
Speaker 6: the regulatory review are at least adequate and there may
Speaker 6: be opportunities for further capital distribution later in the year.
Speaker 6: So you know, the market taking the result in their stride,
Speaker 6: possibly the fairly guided outlook for the second half, taking
Speaker 6: some of the shine out of what looked like a
Speaker 6: pretty decent result for the first half.
Speaker 2: Chris, thanks so much, portfolio manager at ninety one, bringing
Speaker 2: the time to just after six thirty.
Speaker 1: Taking your call on one three seven.
Speaker 2: Well, that is the number of various comments coming through
Speaker 2: today on the Reserve Bank, on the Monetary Policy Committee.
Speaker 2: In fact, a doctor len Konar got in touch at
Speaker 2: doctor Connaugh, good evening. You were a director on the
Speaker 2: SAB weren't you some time ago? I think I have a.
Speaker 7: Good evening, Steph, and I have the world record I
Speaker 7: served for twenty four years, and I shared the audited
Speaker 7: committee for something like nineteen years.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, well, thank you for getting in touch.
Speaker 2: I mean you've been listening to.
Speaker 7: These with four different governors as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're going back a little bit a lot
Speaker 2: of experience. I mean, your view on what the Reserve
Speaker 2: Bank governor, the Monetary Policy Committee, the A and C,
Speaker 2: what they've all been saying about all of this.
Speaker 7: Stephen, there are points of view that resonate with each
Speaker 7: of the commentators. Number one, it's highly desirable that we
Speaker 7: do have an inflation target, as your own power is
Speaker 7: done in the USA, and we've set the band between
Speaker 7: three and six and Lesertia Raniajo came forward and announced
Speaker 7: last week that three percent is the target. The Reserve
Speaker 7: Bank administratively reports to the Minister of Finance. Functionally, it
Speaker 7: has a board of directors, so from a protocol point
Speaker 7: of view, it needs to consult from time to time
Speaker 7: with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Finances
Speaker 7: in the GNU. So there are a number of parties
Speaker 7: that he would need to liaise with. But if you
Speaker 7: look at the overall intent, is it highly desirable that
Speaker 7: we should target a lower inflation rate, and the answer
Speaker 7: to that is an unequal for though we should go
Speaker 7: out there. Sorry, it's an unequal vocal. Yes, we should
Speaker 7: go up there and target this lower interest rates steady.
Speaker 7: The mandate as far as the Reserve Mink is concerned,
Speaker 7: is to protect the value of the currency. I've heard Duma, Kubura,
Speaker 7: Gene Skumann, all of them have points of view. But
Speaker 7: in the end, if one looks at the community in
Speaker 7: sixty two million South Africans, we have pensioners and retirement
Speaker 7: funds that prefer high interest rates, consumers that prefer lower
Speaker 7: interest rates. So by us following this and targeting and
Speaker 7: inflation rate, we are trying to ensure that we have consumerism,
Speaker 7: we have a steady currency. You've seen the balance of
Speaker 7: trade and the volatility is within the currency. So my
Speaker 7: considered view is maybe the announcement by the Gardener should
Speaker 7: have taken place after consultation with the Minister of final
Speaker 7: But is this injurious to anyone? Does this You're a
Speaker 7: step out of line with the target And the answer
Speaker 7: to that is no. So we need to support the governor,
Speaker 7: support the independence of the Reserve Bank and bring down
Speaker 7: inflations so that our currency will not depreciate on average
Speaker 7: by six percent and has this been the case in
Speaker 7: the past twenty five years.
Speaker 2: Doctor len Conna, thank you very much indeed for getting
Speaker 2: in touch. Good to hear from you. A former long
Speaker 2: standing director of the South African Reserve.
Speaker 1: Bank's on the Money Show six to eight pm.
Speaker 2: Well I suggested from the CEO for Business and Commercial
Speaker 2: Banking at Standard Bank, Bill Blackie, that Africa is currently
Speaker 2: at an inflection point in terms of its development. Standard
Speaker 2: Bank holding the Financing Africa Forward Cost of Capital Summit today.
Speaker 2: We'll Bill Blackie on the line for you now. Bill,
Speaker 2: good evening. You suggest we're actually at an inflection point.
Speaker 2: Why do you believe that?
Speaker 8: Steve, thank you. It's wonderful to speak to you again tonight.
Speaker 8: You know, Stephen, we've been growing our business across Africa
Speaker 8: for many, many years now and we continue to see
Speaker 8: sustained growth and sustained returns from that investment. So we
Speaker 8: remain extremely positive about the growth of both South Africa
Speaker 8: and the rest of the continent, and that's why we
Speaker 8: do these initiatives and invest in these initiatives like Financing
Speaker 8: Africa Forward. This today was very much focused on our
Speaker 8: cost of capital in Africa, and there's a lot of
Speaker 8: data to show that actually in Africa we pay disproportionately
Speaker 8: high interest rates for that capital that we need for
Speaker 8: infrastructure investment. So that's what we were bringing role players
Speaker 8: and stakeholders together to really start to get practical about
Speaker 8: how we deal that.
Speaker 2: Public private partnerships seem to becoming more popular. I mean,
Speaker 2: is momentum building around.
Speaker 8: Those absolutely, you know, it's an absolutely essential art of
Speaker 8: the growth of the continent over the long run. Asterka
Speaker 8: itself has got some savings capacity, but when you look
Speaker 8: at the infrastructure gap that we have at the moment
Speaker 8: and the potential that we can unlock if we can
Speaker 8: invest in that infrastructure, we absolutely need to crowd in
Speaker 8: capital from a range of different sources and that's why
Speaker 8: public private partnerships would be so important.
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the major issues is strengthening government capacity.
Speaker 2: Governance weakness is a major problem. Are there certain changes
Speaker 2: that could improve governance or strengthen governance to use a
Speaker 2: better word.
Speaker 8: You know, without a doubt, I think consistently you see
Speaker 8: that improving across the continent. One of the great examples
Speaker 8: would be if you look at Kenyan this last period
Speaker 8: where they went through a downgrade, then went through the
Speaker 8: process of articulating their strategy to the market at Marrakesh
Speaker 8: last year, and he saw uptick in the ratings of
Speaker 8: the country off the back of that. So you know,
Speaker 8: there are many of these stories that we could share
Speaker 8: with yourself and your listeners.
Speaker 2: Bill Blackie, thanks very much, indeed, Seer of Business and
Speaker 2: Commercial Banking at the Standard Bank Group. Well, a major
Speaker 2: part of all of this is around credit ratings and obviously,
Speaker 2: as you know, the better your rating the GP or capital,
Speaker 2: the GP or capital, the more development, the better the rating.
Speaker 2: Harry join Ditmas a Specialty growth leader at Marsh Africa. Harry,
Speaker 2: good evening, And I suppose I mean we should ask
Speaker 2: how important sovereign credit ratings are in Africa. I mean,
Speaker 2: I remember how important it was when we were downgraded
Speaker 2: to sort of non investment junk status. It was a
Speaker 2: few years ago. Looking back, it probably has had quite
Speaker 2: a big impact on us and we're just one country
Speaker 2: in our continent.
Speaker 9: Hi there, thank you very much for having me on. Yeah,
Speaker 9: credit ratings are really important, made up of qualitative and
Speaker 9: and quantitative measures and really measure a country's ability to
Speaker 9: service its debt, and there are various ingredients within that,
Speaker 9: whether it's the GDP, whether it's the size of the
Speaker 9: informal economy, its ability to collect tax, and it's government debt.
Speaker 9: Of course, the better those measures, the more able that
Speaker 9: country is viewed to be able to service its debt
Speaker 9: and to be able to leverage debt in the international markets.
Speaker 9: Of course, the lower the credit rating, the less credit
Speaker 9: worthy that country is seen to be able to service
Speaker 9: its debt, and it's higher the cost of borrowing.
Speaker 2: Have you seen other countries suffering when their credit rating
Speaker 2: is sort of downgraded? I mean, does it happen almost
Speaker 2: automatically you can kind of, you know, predict what's going
Speaker 2: to happen next kind of.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 9: Absolutely so. Look, pension fund banks, private equity funds all
Speaker 9: use credit ratings to set their strategies towards the country
Speaker 9: in terms of how much they want to lend and
Speaker 9: at what cost, and it impacts their internal limits and
Speaker 9: as I say, pricing, so systemically they're well entrenched in
Speaker 9: the sort of global financial architecture. So a downgrade can
Speaker 9: again increase the cost of borrowing. And I mean a
Speaker 9: country could could even fall outside of a risk appetite
Speaker 9: entirely and so reduce the amount that that country could
Speaker 9: invariably borrow to fund really important infrastructure projects or its
Speaker 9: sort of social strategies and what have you.
Speaker 2: Does it affect other things? So, for example, insurance for
Speaker 2: a large scale project, I mean, would that be affected
Speaker 2: by a ratings downgrade too, Yes, but it's the.
Speaker 9: Sort of tertiary impact I suppose, I mean many countries
Speaker 9: across the continent the sub investment grade. But from a
Speaker 9: from a from an insurance perspective, that means it's it's
Speaker 9: really critical for those lenders at a project level to
Speaker 9: have recourse for various insurable risks at a project level,
Speaker 9: whether it's to the construction of the project or the
Speaker 9: operation of it, to have recourse to well rated insurers
Speaker 9: to make them whole for insured events to that project.
Speaker 9: And so it's critical that where there are you know,
Speaker 9: lower lower rated countries, that there are well rated insurers
Speaker 9: sitting behind, often local insurers who are issuing these policies,
Speaker 9: which just means that that it's sort of critical that
Speaker 9: the well structured insurance policies sit sit behind, and well
Speaker 9: rated insurers sit behind. Insurance protection for these for these
Speaker 9: infrastructure projects. But also I suppose one other angle of
Speaker 9: insurance as well that that that does support flow of
Speaker 9: capital is insurance that the banks or the private equity
Speaker 9: funds take out to cover them against default of those
Speaker 9: loans to either governments or to to projects directly. And
Speaker 9: whether that's default insurance to help them leverage more capital
Speaker 9: into those projects, or political risk insurance and credit credit
Speaker 9: ratings influence the availability of those coverages.
Speaker 2: Are some sectors hurt more than others when there's a downgrade?
Speaker 2: I mean, does mining or agriculture have more vulnerable than
Speaker 2: other sectors?
Speaker 9: So yes, So projects that have or are dependent on
Speaker 9: governments or sub sub sovereign for payment streams or cash flows,
Speaker 9: so energy in particular, where there are government of takers
Speaker 9: and so governments are required to pay for whatever is
Speaker 9: being produced, whether it's energy or whatever else. Downgrade can
Speaker 9: influence the sort of the credit risk of that project
Speaker 9: and the availability or appetite of developers and investors to
Speaker 9: fund those projects and indeed the cost of delivering that project.
Speaker 2: Harry Droyan Didmas, the Specialty Growth leader at marsha Apaguet,
Speaker 2: thanks very much once.
Speaker 10: Up Stephen On well, we were talking about the Reserve
Speaker 10: Bank earlier on in the Monetary Policy Committee, but we've
Speaker 10: also been talking about what you're literally wearing.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about clothes, the price of clothes, Shane and
Speaker 2: Tim or the impact that they're having. And for some
Speaker 2: people it means they have more choice than ever before
Speaker 2: in terms of what they were and I'm talking about
Speaker 2: people in our country, South Africans. For others, of course,
Speaker 2: they're sitting at home thinking I might be working if
Speaker 2: it wasn't for them, or voice notes coming through tonight
Speaker 2: on seven two seven two one seven o two.
Speaker 11: As Steven, I think a quick example, which would be
Speaker 11: simpler would be to look at Apple, where it was
Speaker 11: more expensive to develop an assemble the Apple devices in
Speaker 11: the US compared to them being assembled in China. So
Speaker 11: it is a much cheaper alternative for that work to
Speaker 11: be done in China. So if you look at it,
Speaker 11: that means the labor in China is much cheaper compared
Speaker 11: to anywhere else in the world. Hence the clothings that
Speaker 11: are brought from China, for example, for Shinna and Demo
Speaker 11: are much cheaper because of the labor which is cheaper
Speaker 11: in that country.
Speaker 2: Absolutely You're entirely correct. It's a great example to point
Speaker 2: to actually with Apple. I mean, the other thing to
Speaker 2: just say is that India and China have the expertise,
Speaker 2: the people who can put lots of things together and
Speaker 2: create a production line that can do it, whereas I
Speaker 2: understand the US actually doesn't your thoughts. Tonight, double one,
Speaker 2: double A THREEH seven oh two an two one four
Speaker 2: four six O five sixty seven.
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Kutez is brought to you
Speaker 12: by APPS, a corporate and investment backing APPS as are
Speaker 12: proud lead sponsor of the twenty South Africa twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: Well, just a sort of carry on the conversation around tariffs,
Speaker 2: and we're talking about Apple in relation to Shin and Timu,
Speaker 2: and Apple's problems are all because the US President Donald
Speaker 2: Trump is essentially, by kind of individual executive order what's
Speaker 2: the word of the moment, unilaterally deciding that he's going
Speaker 2: to do what he wants to do when it comes
Speaker 2: to trade. And there's been some developments on really two fronts. First,
Speaker 2: the US President Donald Trump imposing a twenty five percent
Speaker 2: tariff on all goods from India, which surely is going
Speaker 2: to impact the relationship between India and the United States,
Speaker 2: and for quite a while they've actually been quite pali together.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's sort of complications, but they've been relatively
Speaker 2: pally together. The second is that our international relations mister
Speaker 2: Ronald lamarl A confirming on X following on from a
Speaker 2: post on X by a person called Masad Bulls who
Speaker 2: is described as a senior advisor to Trump, and LaMura
Speaker 2: essentially saying, yes, we did have a conversation. Difficult to
Speaker 2: know at the stage of it involved tariffs, and I
Speaker 2: suppose that takes us to a question of who has
Speaker 2: Trump's here, who's actually making the decisions? Well, he's clearly
Speaker 2: making the decisions, but who's influencing them? And that's quite
Speaker 2: complicated to actually know. I was pleased though, to see
Speaker 2: that there is communication. I do think that that's very important.
Speaker 5: All right.
Speaker 2: Coming up in the next half hour more from Wendy Noley,
Speaker 2: Consume an engine on this issue of the cost of
Speaker 2: having food delivered to you and what that amounts to.
Speaker 2: It can actually amount to quite a lot over a month.
Speaker 2: We'll also talk about a tokenism. How do you make
Speaker 2: sure that your company is not getting involved in tokenism,
Speaker 2: so true diversity if you prefer, and then don't forget
Speaker 2: your extra special shape shifter. This evening, July and Lauvel,
Speaker 2: the CEO of former CEO now at Tungala Resources, has
Speaker 2: some very interesting comments to make and has lived a
Speaker 2: very very interesting life. Looking forward to all of that.
Speaker 2: Good evening. You're at the Money Show. It's seven o'clock.
Speaker 12: And now The Money Show with Stephen Scribers on seven
Speaker 12: oh two.
Speaker 2: Let's walk little. The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has
Speaker 2: brought to you by Abster Corporate and Investment Banking Absurus,
Speaker 2: a proud lead sponsor of B twenty South Africa twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five. Good evening. Lots coming up in the next
Speaker 2: little while. Don't forget. We'll be speaking to Avita and
Speaker 2: i Do from jack Hammer Global in just a moment.
Speaker 2: There's always this of lingering question when we talk about diversity,
Speaker 2: of the issue of tokenism. I mean, how do you
Speaker 2: make sure it's not happening to you? How do you
Speaker 2: make sure company is actually truly diverse? Things like that?
Speaker 2: Are there traps that people fall into? I mean, I
Speaker 2: think that's something we need to look at. Wendy Nola
Speaker 2: has been looking at the cost of, you know, every month,
Speaker 2: of how much it's costing you to have food delivered
Speaker 2: to your door. I mean we all love it. I'll
Speaker 2: find it frustrating actually because it just takes so long
Speaker 2: and rather get a car and go and do it.
Speaker 2: But there are moments, family, children, people, et cetera, when
Speaker 2: actually it makes complete sense to just phone someone and
Speaker 2: say please deliver food or whatever it is. So we
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about that in the next little
Speaker 2: while and then don't forget your extra special shape shift
Speaker 2: tonight July in Lauvu. It was a Tranella resources for
Speaker 2: a very long time, just finished this last month there
Speaker 2: and of course really a very very interesting life story
Speaker 2: as well, so looking forward to that and of course
Speaker 2: hearing from you tonight.
Speaker 1: What up Steven on seven to two seven two one
Speaker 1: seven oh two.
Speaker 2: Well, I comment from Michelle on the WhatsApp line. Quite honestly,
Speaker 2: I think the people buying Shane and Timu clothes are
Speaker 2: not the low end of the consumer market, but rather
Speaker 2: middle class people who like the convenience. That's actually a
Speaker 2: very interesting question. I know there was a time when
Speaker 2: people would say, no, man, we need to make sure
Speaker 2: that people have data and things like that. I think
Speaker 2: more and more that's becoming less of a problem. I
Speaker 2: think people have access to data or access to someone
Speaker 2: who does if you see what I mean. So now
Speaker 2: I think that that becomes less of an issue. And
Speaker 2: maybe that's one of the reasons we've seen such an
Speaker 2: explosion in sort of online sources of clothing, that more
Speaker 2: and more people actually have data the ability to do it,
Speaker 2: and that means that Shin and Timure come in there.
Speaker 2: I mean, I must just say more and more it
Speaker 2: is about the app, and it's not about the service
Speaker 2: or the cost to an extent. I mean cost matters
Speaker 2: with clothing, of course, it does that about the app.
Speaker 2: And if you aren't able to to compete on the app,
Speaker 2: well then I don't know what's going to happen to you. Frankly,
Speaker 2: I think that rarely is one of the major issues. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Your thoughts O double one, double A three oh seven
Speaker 2: oh two and two one four four six, five sixty seven.
Speaker 1: No money, show business unusual.
Speaker 2: Business unusual is nine minutes after seven. Well, despite what
Speaker 2: might be happening publicly in corporate America, here still huge
Speaker 2: demands for companies to show that they're committed to true diversity.
Speaker 2: It often doesn't come actually from government. I mean, in
Speaker 2: some ways it does. But what you really want to
Speaker 2: do is if you operate in South Africa, you have
Speaker 2: a diverse set of customers and you want to make
Speaker 2: sure your customers are reflected in your business. Otherwise you're
Speaker 2: going to make well wrong decisions. Adita, and I do
Speaker 2: is the Africa MD at Jack Hammick Global, Adita, good evening,
Speaker 2: welcome back. Do we find that there are sort of
Speaker 2: traps of tokenism quite a strange phrase that we see
Speaker 2: in corporate South Africa. Do we see some equality programs
Speaker 2: just make mistakes?
Speaker 13: We do, I think, And obviously this is a really
Speaker 13: important issue to think about right now in terms of
Speaker 13: the fact that it's Women's Month. But yeah, tokenism it's
Speaker 13: when the diversity is very visible but not actually powerful,
Speaker 13: and you know, you think companies are actually just meeting
Speaker 13: these box ticking exercises. Women are being appointed to meet scorecards,
Speaker 13: but they're not really empowered to shift strategy or culture.
Speaker 13: And the thing is that it's insidious or it's confusing
Speaker 13: because it wears the mask of progress and you'll see
Speaker 13: the one woman on an all male executive team or
Speaker 13: the single black female board member very publicly celebrated, but
Speaker 13: when you really scratch the beneath the surface, that actual
Speaker 13: influence of her role may be limited. So I think
Speaker 13: there are companies that are falling into this tokenism trap
Speaker 13: where you get the same few women sitting on all
Speaker 13: the boards, or women are clustered into these so called
Speaker 13: soft rolls like HR or legal or marketing and not
Speaker 13: in the P and L or strategic operational roles, and
Speaker 13: you can actually physically count how many women are the
Speaker 13: room in the room. And I'm not saying that there
Speaker 13: are no words in powerful roles. We do have four
Speaker 13: female CEOs in the JSE Top forty. There are some
Speaker 13: executives running business lines. But there's also evidence that the
Speaker 13: pipeline of female leadership is quite leaky.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I mean, how do you know? I mean,
Speaker 2: sometimes a company can have worked quite hard at it
Speaker 2: still made a few mistakes, but it's clearly trying to
Speaker 2: sort of change things, and sometimes actually they're not interested,
Speaker 2: and it can be quite hard to work out the
Speaker 2: I mean, it shouldn't be, but I do wonder if
Speaker 2: there are case is where there is a desire to
Speaker 2: change things, but things happen. I mean, staff get a
Speaker 2: poached to.
Speaker 13: This is true, and you know, maybe they're moving to
Speaker 13: more progressive companies, but I think the impact will be
Speaker 13: felt where you know you do have a stronger pipeline
Speaker 13: of women coming in. You ask the question about whether
Speaker 13: equality programs are failing, and they're getting it wrong. And
Speaker 13: I think the ways in which they get them wrong
Speaker 13: is they focus on the numerical representation but not the
Speaker 13: actual in baked cultural transformation of what inclusion means. I
Speaker 13: think a lot of companies assume that the burden of
Speaker 13: change lies with the women, and they focus on surface
Speaker 13: level things like confidence workshops and not actual systemic redesign
Speaker 13: of what it means to have women in top roles.
Speaker 13: And again, like I said, if you're concentrating women in
Speaker 13: the so called softer roles or the group roles or
Speaker 13: the shared services roles, and you're not enabling them to
Speaker 13: run actual business roles, then that's a problem.
Speaker 2: I've watched the conversation between a person who was perhaps
Speaker 2: promoted because of their color, who with a person who
Speaker 2: actually did an MBA thesis on exactly that issue. It
Speaker 2: was fascinating to sort of watch the dynamics of that conversation.
Speaker 2: And doesn't that happen too. So companies come across a person,
Speaker 2: they want to hit the others, tugers, they want to
Speaker 2: look a particular way. All of this is natural. They
Speaker 2: come across a person and that person And I've had
Speaker 2: people complain about this to me, And yes, I'm a
Speaker 2: white man, but I've had black people tell me this.
Speaker 2: They feel they get promoted too quickly. It's a strange
Speaker 2: thing because you'd think, well, who gets promoted too quickly that,
Speaker 2: I mean, why would you complain about that? But actually
Speaker 2: there are deep season problems there.
Speaker 14: It doesn't.
Speaker 2: It doesn't.
Speaker 13: I think they're like, you know, we're talking about tokenism.
Speaker 13: But I think there are also very few companies who
Speaker 13: are going to put people in a core business role
Speaker 13: without the confidence that they're able to do the role.
Speaker 13: And I think they're probably also doing the candidates themselves
Speaker 13: and the rest of the organization a disservice by implying
Speaker 13: that a woman or a person of color is getting
Speaker 13: a role purely on the basis of demographic because one,
Speaker 13: it engenders negative feelings and the rest of the organization,
Speaker 13: and two, it sets that person up for failure. So yes,
Speaker 13: there are instances where people do get promoted a little
Speaker 13: bit too quickly in our haste or our excitement to
Speaker 13: meet a diversity target without putting the proper support systems
Speaker 13: and fail safes in place to make sure that that
Speaker 13: person is set up for success. But I don't think
Speaker 13: it's common that a person is getting a role purely
Speaker 13: because of their color. Yeah, so I mean or their gender.
Speaker 13: But that being said, yes, there are instances where this
Speaker 13: issue of tokenism comes into play, and we really have
Speaker 13: to understand what is tokenism and showcasing and what is
Speaker 13: true inclusion and diversity, because, like you said, I think
Speaker 13: there are companies who are committed to getting it right,
Speaker 13: they're just going about it in the wrong ways. And
Speaker 13: you know, just as a couple of examples of things
Speaker 13: that they are doing, it's this performative allyship rather than
Speaker 13: real support. You know, all these companies right now are
Speaker 13: posting about Women's Month on LinkedIn, but are they interrogating
Speaker 13: what is essentially an all male leadership team. They're sponsoring
Speaker 13: gender summits but maintaining unequal pay bands. They're attending diversity
Speaker 13: workshops but not actually speaking about bias when it appears
Speaker 13: in their meetings. So what our point is is that, yes,
Speaker 13: we know that there are companies who are committed to
Speaker 13: getting it right, but are they going about it in
Speaker 13: the right way.
Speaker 2: How do you know if a workplace is properly inclusive
Speaker 2: with regard to female representation. And it can't just be
Speaker 2: the numbers. So we look to the numbers because that
Speaker 2: we can understand, or fifty plus one whatever it is,
Speaker 2: okay that we get, But it goes so much deeper
Speaker 2: than that, and that's where it starts to get really
Speaker 2: complicated to try and actually conduct an assessment of a
Speaker 2: company culture, for example. And I mean assessing culture doesn't
Speaker 2: rely on numbers. It relies on something else exactly.
Speaker 13: And I think you know, looking at numbers and representation,
Speaker 13: that's a bit of a cognitive shortcut. That's a measurable
Speaker 13: that companies want to focus on because you can put
Speaker 13: that up on a slide deck and it looks great, right.
Speaker 13: But true inclusion is more than just the numbers. It's
Speaker 13: the psychological safety where people feel that they can speak
Speaker 13: up without being labeled as emotional or difficult. It means
Speaker 13: equitable access to menship or sponsorship, and especially stretch opportunities.
Speaker 13: Are people being given the opportunity to work beyond what
Speaker 13: they're currently doing to grow into a role. And I think,
Speaker 13: especially where women are concerned, it's workplaces that are designed
Speaker 13: for real lives and what women are going through. They
Speaker 13: don't penalize pregnancy, they don't penalize menopause or caregiving. We
Speaker 13: know that the domestic load still falls mostly to women,
Speaker 13: but we're fixing the broken run where women feel that
Speaker 13: they can't acceed into leadership roles because they have to
Speaker 13: take a time out to focus on a domestic load.
Speaker 2: Can men actually assess if their company is doing the
Speaker 2: right thing or the company they work for or is
Speaker 2: it something that only women can? Let me just explain
Speaker 2: where I'm going with this. A couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: I was at a workshop, you know, involving a lot
Speaker 2: of companies and different people, and one what male CEO
Speaker 2: stood up and gave a presentation that was Adita. He
Speaker 2: put together in file minute spires PA, right, Okay, there's
Speaker 2: no way to get around it. The guy after him
Speaker 2: another guy that both that both looked like me, if
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Both white men talked to
Speaker 2: the audience in a way that to me seemed to
Speaker 2: show that he had a much deeper understanding. And I
Speaker 2: was watching the audience and women were, as far as
Speaker 2: I could see, he was really speaking to them directly.
Speaker 2: They were nodding, they were you could see they really
Speaker 2: believed him. I thought that was very interesting. It's hard
Speaker 2: to put all of that into words, but that was
Speaker 2: kind of my sense in the room. So what I'm
Speaker 2: trying to get to is, I don't know if men
Speaker 2: can rarely assess whether they're doing the right thing or not.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you actually have to ask the woman who work
Speaker 2: with them.
Speaker 13: You are absolutely right. But I think if we take
Speaker 13: a step back and think about the fact that, first
Speaker 13: of all, South African business culture is still pretty patriarchal
Speaker 13: in many ways, and if men do not actively dismantle
Speaker 13: the structures that benefit them, gender equality is just going
Speaker 13: to stall at the policy level, because if we're seeing
Speaker 13: gender equity as a women's issue rather than a business imperative,
Speaker 13: then nobody's really going to address the problem. So male
Speaker 13: leaders who have this disproportionate power and access also hold
Speaker 13: the keys to change. They need to audit the system
Speaker 13: and not just the individuals. They need to be asking
Speaker 13: questions like who is getting promoted and.
Speaker 14: What is our pipeline?
Speaker 13: Who gets the stretch rules, who gets the benefit of
Speaker 13: the doubt. They also need to sponsor women, especially women
Speaker 13: of color. And that doesn't just mean mentoring them, because
Speaker 13: women don't need mentors, they need allies. They need to
Speaker 13: refuse to participate in anything that's exclusionary. You know, those
Speaker 13: golf days, they still happen, the all male panels, they
Speaker 13: still happen. Sexist banter still happens. And if men are
Speaker 13: not saying no to these things, that means that the
Speaker 13: power is that the power vests and remains vested in
Speaker 13: a select group of people. Means calling out unfair processes,
Speaker 13: especially if they benefit just you. It means giving up space.
Speaker 13: You don't just invite a woman to the table. You
Speaker 13: move over and you give her space and you call
Speaker 13: out the bias because true allies understand that gender equity
Speaker 13: is not about charity or guilt. It's about strategy and
Speaker 13: fairness and equity.
Speaker 2: Ad Vita and I do thank you Africa a MD
Speaker 2: at jack Hammer Global The Money Show, Consumer Ninja, Wendy
Speaker 2: know that your consumer Ninja with us now. Of course, Wendy,
Speaker 2: you've been looking at this issue. So I mean, I
Speaker 2: see it happening all the time, and as if you
Speaker 2: drive anywhere in the evening, you'll see so many people
Speaker 2: delivering food on motorbikes. It's incredibly convenient. It must be
Speaker 2: a little bit more expensive though, and I wonder sometimes
Speaker 2: how much money we're spending on all of that. What
Speaker 2: have you been looking at?
Speaker 15: Okay, so I have to say it. It was a
Speaker 15: bank's press release which prompted this discussion, which is quite
Speaker 15: unusual for me. But yeah, so as you say, those
Speaker 15: little motorbikes are not just foods that has been ordered
Speaker 15: from delivery apps such as Uber Eats and mister d
Speaker 15: but also your grocery delivery. So we're not talking about
Speaker 15: grocery deliveries. We're talking here about people who who want
Speaker 15: to eat and then they click going to the app,
Speaker 15: click and it you know, there comes the little motorbike
Speaker 15: with their food. And what Standard Bank did during the
Speaker 15: course of last month, which is saving some months or
Speaker 15: non saving months for South Africans. As it turns out,
Speaker 15: they took a look at what kinds of things their
Speaker 15: clients were Tierney spending their money on in otherwise habits
Speaker 15: that if they tweaked them a bit, because nobody wants
Speaker 15: to go called turky and anything. If they spent a
Speaker 15: little bit more mindfully, they could actually create a new
Speaker 15: habit of redirecting that money in the two have to
Speaker 15: go hand in hand. You've got to just save, you've
Speaker 15: got to spend it mindfully, put it away into a fund.
Speaker 15: It didn't account for emergency spending because it's not happening.
Speaker 15: Too many South Africans are saying they want to save
Speaker 15: for any day because we know through experience that rainy
Speaker 15: days happen, and they happen quite often, but it's actually
Speaker 15: not happening. So here is how the bank's head of
Speaker 15: Money Management and Advisory direct us to put it.
Speaker 16: So in the context of savings month at Standard Bank,
Speaker 16: we want to have the conversation around practical ways, you know,
Speaker 16: to free up cash flown to actually get the money
Speaker 16: to save. So as part of this exercise, we looked
Speaker 16: at individuals spending across different income categories and you know,
Speaker 16: categorized what people are spending on. So one of the
Speaker 16: things we looked at is subscriptions. Another thing we looked
Speaker 16: at is things like spending on takeaways and especially food
Speaker 16: delivery et cetera. So really to have a conversation around yes,
Speaker 16: we all know it's important to save, but how do
Speaker 16: I start practically doing it? And if we're saying times
Speaker 16: are tough and it's difficult, you know, to save, what
Speaker 16: are some of the ideas that we can start sharing
Speaker 16: with individuals who say, maybe look at this. And it's
Speaker 16: not necessarily to say stop spending on a certain item
Speaker 16: or certain category, but it's more to say, if you
Speaker 16: just take a bid of that money and you start
Speaker 16: redirecting it towards a savings account, you know, what can
Speaker 16: the impact of that be and how can you actually
Speaker 16: use that to kick start your savings?
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's what they wanted to do. What levels
Speaker 2: of sort of spending on food delivery apps do they
Speaker 2: actually find?
Speaker 15: It was quite an eye open to Stephen. I have
Speaker 15: to say, first of all, more than forty five percent
Speaker 15: of their clients across the board have no accessible emergency
Speaker 15: savings at all. And then among private banking clients between
Speaker 15: earning between twenty five and fifty eight thousand a month,
Speaker 15: more than a third of them have no emergency savings
Speaker 15: at all either. So used to says we know that
Speaker 15: growing one's income isn't always easy because there are external
Speaker 15: factors we can't control. But obviously we can control what
Speaker 15: we're spending on takeaways, right.
Speaker 2: You've got to control what you can control. Now, we
Speaker 2: can't make as much money as we want, but we
Speaker 2: only spend as much as we need to and want.
Speaker 2: I suppose yeah.
Speaker 15: And you know those of us whose work or home
Speaker 15: address is very well known to the mister d's and
Speaker 15: that eats drivers. The starting point would be, actually, let's
Speaker 15: look at it. Let's be mindful what what are we
Speaker 15: actually spending on these apps? And you don't have to
Speaker 15: do any maths. You just have to go into your
Speaker 15: audit history on the app or apps and it will
Speaker 15: tell you all. Stand at bank Starter shows that customers
Speaker 15: spend on average seven hundred and seventy five round a
Speaker 15: month on takeout and food delivery from fourteen major food
Speaker 15: glass food or quick service restaurants as the industry calls
Speaker 15: them QSR franchises. And as I said, that's not including
Speaker 15: groceries and supermarket meals. So it's the customers in the
Speaker 15: late twenties and thirties who are most guilty and adverted
Speaker 15: is of this. They're hugely embracing it. This is the new,
Speaker 15: this is the way to go. And higher the income
Speaker 15: that they're earning, the more they spend. Those earning more
Speaker 15: than sixty or around sixty thousand spent one thousand rand monthsly,
Speaker 15: going up to around one three a month during holidays.
Speaker 15: Lower to middle income earners, those earning under twenty thousand
Speaker 15: spend four hundred and seventy two rand, and those earning
Speaker 15: twenty five thousand a month six hundred and fifteen rand
Speaker 15: a month.
Speaker 2: That's a lot, Steven, So, I mean it sort of
Speaker 2: edges up right. You don't kind of realize how much
Speaker 2: you're spending on this because you never sit down and
Speaker 2: work out what it's costing you a month.
Speaker 15: Well, that's the thing I think that applies. And I
Speaker 15: mean Dorot used to mention subscriptions as well. We don't
Speaker 15: want to go into that here, but that's the other
Speaker 15: thing that every month coming if your credit cards. And
Speaker 15: I think part of it, Stephen is it's you're not
Speaker 15: handing over money. You're not handing over catches. Not this
Speaker 15: conscious okay here, sixty eight rand or whatever. It's all
Speaker 15: clicked done coming off your card, you know, and it's
Speaker 15: I think that adds to it, and I just wanted
Speaker 15: to add something that that bank would appressionally didn't mention,
Speaker 15: and I think a lot of people don't actually realize,
Speaker 15: is that the food's not costing you extra over and
Speaker 15: above what you would pay if you ordered and collected
Speaker 15: yourself or went and ate inside one of those QSR places.
Speaker 15: It's not just the delivery fee of twenty rand or whatever,
Speaker 15: but all the restaurants actually according to a News twenty
Speaker 15: four report back in twenty twenty three, they investigated this
Speaker 15: quite in depth, and most national chains charge between twenty
Speaker 15: percent and thirty percent more for meals than what their
Speaker 15: menu prices are for you know, normally, so that they
Speaker 15: add on their app costs for being on those apps
Speaker 15: to their customers, and that is a lot twenty to
Speaker 15: thirty percent. Then you're paying delivery on top of it,
Speaker 15: and that's going to erode your bank account quite nicely
Speaker 15: if you are regular.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very quickly. Okay, So I mean, do you
Speaker 2: just stop doing it automatically? Do you go cold turkey
Speaker 2: or do it's another way.
Speaker 15: I don't think cold turkey is a good thing. We're
Speaker 15: going to We're human beings, are resistant to that. So
Speaker 15: so don't order as often or reduce the cost of
Speaker 15: the of your takeaways. So don't pay the delivery. If
Speaker 15: you don't pay the app, marke up price, go and
Speaker 15: collect yourself or sit in the restaurant. You know, it's
Speaker 15: it's this convenience click and there it comes on the
Speaker 15: scooter thing. That's that's taking away money that if we
Speaker 15: save the money, don't just save the money that you
Speaker 15: put it away and have a goal and or just
Speaker 15: you know, when your car breaks down and you've got
Speaker 15: to suddenly find eight thousand rand. I mean for most
Speaker 15: people that will set them back for months and they're borrowing. Yeah,
Speaker 15: and that's more interesting.
Speaker 2: It's a drama.
Speaker 15: So you know, there's one of two or three fewer
Speaker 15: takeaway meals or not having the scooter come to your door.
Speaker 15: You know, there's the trade off is that you've got
Speaker 15: peace of mind and it isn't this emotional trauma when
Speaker 15: suddenly you need to find extra money that you don't have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, And I mean in the end, basically the
Speaker 2: moral of the story is, and this is something you
Speaker 2: learn when you leave your late twenties and nearly thirties,
Speaker 2: is that convenience costs.
Speaker 15: Absolutely, So it's other forms of food as well. I mean,
Speaker 15: if you go into a supermarket, there's so many products
Speaker 15: on the shelves that are screaming pick me because I'm
Speaker 15: quick and convenient, and we're.
Speaker 7: All like, oh well, I.
Speaker 15: Are so busy and luck let's do it the quickest,
Speaker 15: easiest way. All that convenience costs. So if you buy
Speaker 15: the instant oats instead of spending a whole two or
Speaker 15: three minutes cooking thoughts the traditional way on the stove
Speaker 15: is going to cost you a lot more over time.
Speaker 15: The pre cut and bagged veggies are great, so convenient
Speaker 15: rather than cutting your own button nut or whatever. All
Speaker 15: these purchased decisions might seem petty, the pre cooked sources
Speaker 15: instead of just spending two minutes doing yourself.
Speaker 2: They all add up.
Speaker 15: And all those habits collectively are what are some of
Speaker 15: the things that are stopping us or you know, from
Speaker 15: being able to put a little bit away to help
Speaker 15: ourselves for when there's inevitable dramas happen to us.
Speaker 2: Wendy and Know No, thank you very much indeed on
Speaker 2: speed doll and free delivery to your home of Wendy
Speaker 2: and KnowI your consumer Ninja every Wednesday evening, Wendy, thanks
Speaker 2: very much. The Money Show shape Shift is well. One
Speaker 2: of the people who's been part of corporate life, part
Speaker 2: I suppose of what you would call money show life.
Speaker 2: Perhaps that was a small part of his life for
Speaker 2: quite a long time, played a big role in our
Speaker 2: mining industry. Is July and lawful, and he's coming to
Speaker 2: the end of his time as the CEO at Tunkala Resources.
Speaker 2: They're in this sort of transition period and he will
Speaker 2: slowly be stepping off that stage. And I'm pleased to
Speaker 2: tell you that he's in our studio nowly good evening.
Speaker 2: It's wonderful to meet you and thank you for coming
Speaker 2: through and agree to be our shape Shifter tonight.
Speaker 14: Now, thank you so much for inviting me in. Retiring
Speaker 14: is a good thing. I've finally met it to the
Speaker 14: f center of Seminoortu Land. Thank you well.
Speaker 2: We're very grateful that you game. I think whenever I
Speaker 2: were you know, the time I spent on Google looking,
Speaker 2: looking and preparing for tonight, and I noticed you included
Speaker 2: it in your LinkedIn profile as well. Is that you
Speaker 2: grew up in gokomehre particular part of some barbie. It's
Speaker 2: near Masvingo. If you look at it on a map,
Speaker 2: you went to a Roman Catholic school. They're still up,
Speaker 2: They're still going. The silver website I saw today. What
Speaker 2: was that kind of community like at the time. I mean,
Speaker 2: Zimbabwe's changed a lot over the years.
Speaker 14: I mean Zimbabwe has been blessed with lots of mission schools.
Speaker 14: So all my schooling life was through mission schools. I
Speaker 14: went to Pakame for primary. Actually, go Comerera was a
Speaker 14: small part of my high school. High school education. I
Speaker 14: went to Surren Mission, one of the oldest missions in
Speaker 14: in in Zimbabwe, which was an Anglican mission. Then I
Speaker 14: went to go Coomerera and something quite significant up beened
Speaker 14: at Cocomerera because I met my my wife.
Speaker 2: We've been together for that long. Sure do you think
Speaker 2: so we talk about education all the time in South Africa?
Speaker 2: Was there something about the quality of that education that
Speaker 2: helped you along the path that maybe young people in
Speaker 2: many government schools here don't get anymore?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 14: I hold the view that the Rhodesian government did one
Speaker 14: thing right for the black population of of den Rhodesia
Speaker 14: and Zimbabwe. They never denied us qualege education. We continue
Speaker 14: to get Cambridge education all the way into into independence.
Speaker 14: And when Robert and Gabe came on, the two things
Speaker 14: that your prioritize, actually, if you think about it, was
Speaker 14: education and free health. And they built schools everywhere, but
Speaker 14: with very good qualege education. And I think that set
Speaker 14: us up. And for people like me who education was
Speaker 14: a ticket to changing your circumstance, I was really lucky
Speaker 14: to have been born where I was born.
Speaker 2: I mean I noticed that you spent some time at Columbia,
Speaker 2: and I was fascinated by this. I mean, Columbia's in
Speaker 2: the States. It's a big place, it's well known, it's
Speaker 2: writing with Donald Trump, everybody is. It's quite a journey
Speaker 2: from Gokomere to Columbia. I mean, did you ever while
Speaker 2: you were there look back and think, gosh, it started
Speaker 2: a long way away.
Speaker 14: You know that part of the journey is an interesting
Speaker 14: one for a young person who grew up in the
Speaker 14: SECONDSS that I grew up, because what is to happen
Speaker 14: is you're never really sure how good you can be, Yeah,
Speaker 14: until you get to a place like Columbia where you
Speaker 14: begin to mix with colleagues from all over the world.
Speaker 14: In fact, in my class there were forty of us
Speaker 14: from thirty four different countries, and all of a sudden
Speaker 14: you begin to understand what world class leadership looks like.
Speaker 14: But secondly, you actually just realize I belong, I can
Speaker 14: be just as good as the next guy. And I
Speaker 14: think it just gives you so much confidence and just
Speaker 14: liberates you to be yourself, to go out there and
Speaker 14: seek to be the best version, not the next guy,
Speaker 14: not of by Jack Welsh, but of yourself.
Speaker 2: You get away from the idea, well, I can only
Speaker 2: be as good as this place, and in fact you
Speaker 2: become July and Lavul, the.
Speaker 14: Best vision of July and Love, and there's only one
Speaker 14: of you.
Speaker 2: I like the way you put that you studied metallurgy,
Speaker 2: you studied the science of metal. Was there something about
Speaker 2: mining that you wanted to do already by that stage
Speaker 2: quite a young person?
Speaker 14: Actually, Interestingly, I mean I told my friends that I'm
Speaker 14: a filled medical student because I lasted one semester.
Speaker 2: Rather than me.
Speaker 14: And then what happened was somewhere along the way in
Speaker 14: that first semester I met a guy called her Kova.
Speaker 14: He was a senior executive technical director of Anglo American
Speaker 14: Zimbabwe then, and he started talking about mining and the
Speaker 14: things that you can do in mining, the difference you
Speaker 14: can meet for communities where they were actually mining, the
Speaker 14: role that metals in minerals actually play in the developmental
Speaker 14: store of humanity. And I just felt, these guys are
Speaker 14: doing something really cool. It's different to actually spending time
Speaker 14: in a in a in a theater. So I just
Speaker 14: switched immediately. I'd found my passion.
Speaker 2: Sure, and you you you enjoyed that immediately. I mean,
Speaker 2: you were studying. It's one thing to decide to do something.
Speaker 2: Now you're actually doing it, you're working in mining. Did
Speaker 2: you find that actually that passion stayed with you?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 14: I was lucky to work for an organization as biggest
Speaker 14: Anglo American because what it provided was such a varied experience.
Speaker 14: In fact, I've only worked for two organizations, Anglo American
Speaker 14: and Tangala, But in reality I worked in so many
Speaker 14: different places, so many different experiences, if you can, if
Speaker 14: you can imagine, I studied in coort, I went to pherochrome,
Speaker 14: from ferrochrome to Nico to PGMs, which I enjoyed thoroughly,
Speaker 14: and cycle back to court different organizations. Although you're an
Speaker 14: Anglo American. You're experiencing so many different things, so many
Speaker 14: different markets, so many different commodities, different challenges, and it
Speaker 14: just grows you as a human being.
Speaker 2: So you spend a lot of time kind of in
Speaker 2: the science of mining, managing mining, and then at some
Speaker 2: point the kind of I don't know, did leadership tap
Speaker 2: you on the shoulder? Did someone tap you on the shoulder?
Speaker 2: Was quite a transition, going from kind of science of
Speaker 2: mining to sort of leadership. I mean, when do you
Speaker 2: think you sort of first found yourself in a kind
Speaker 2: of leadership position.
Speaker 14: Probably around about the mid nineties. I made leadership positions first,
Speaker 14: first line management, quite airly in my career as a youngster.
Speaker 14: And at that point in time, obviously you you're full
Speaker 14: of yourself. You think you're the best, do you know everything?
Speaker 14: In fact, you almost think the guys who from what
Speaker 14: you don't know enough anyone to change everything. So I've
Speaker 14: been fortunate to be in leadership positions probably for the
Speaker 14: greater part of my career. That transition, more often than not,
Speaker 14: is not something that you get prepared for because your
Speaker 14: training as an engineer mostly as an individual contributor. In fact,
Speaker 14: we engineers think we are the smartest thing in any
Speaker 14: industry go into and all of a sudden you're not
Speaker 14: being asked to get the best out of other people.
Speaker 14: And that's a transition. Just generally, both in mining and
Speaker 14: most manufacturing organizations, we don't prepare young people very well for.
Speaker 2: What makes a good leader. And I suppose, you know,
Speaker 2: I could walk past any bookshop and any airport in
Speaker 2: the world and they would have a leadership section. And
Speaker 2: I often think, you know, maybe I've got it wrong,
Speaker 2: But there's just a lot of nonsense there. In your experience.
Speaker 2: I mean, you've been with some of the best leaders
Speaker 2: in the world, some of the best leadership teachings in
Speaker 2: the world. What works? I mean, I can think of
Speaker 2: certain things off the top of my head, setting an
Speaker 2: example as one is being decisive, maybe another what for
Speaker 2: you is the kind of key to it actually getting
Speaker 2: the best out of people because lots of people try
Speaker 2: and lead in the fail.
Speaker 14: You know, you're so right. I mean, leadership is about followers.
Speaker 14: Sometimes we forget that to be a leader, you've got
Speaker 14: to have followers. But it also teaches you that in fact,
Speaker 14: to be a leader yourself, you have to be a
Speaker 14: good follower. So this idea of taking people along with
Speaker 14: you irrespect of what it is and realizing that in
Speaker 14: fact people choose to follow you, there's not much you
Speaker 14: can do. It doesn't matter whether it's in politics or
Speaker 14: in brisoners. Actually, when you stand in front of people
Speaker 14: with an idea that you want people to buy into,
Speaker 14: always remember that people are making a choice. Is this
Speaker 14: an idea that we're willing to give our very best
Speaker 14: to realize or not. So that's the first thing about
Speaker 14: leadership that I learned over the last three decades. In
Speaker 14: a bit. The other one really about what makes good
Speaker 14: leaders is to realize what delivers differends. And it doesn't
Speaker 14: matter whether difference is in sport or in business delivering
Speaker 14: good results. Actually, it's about realizing that we're not shout
Speaker 14: of good ideas. In fact, you know what, you can
Speaker 14: hire a consulting organization could be McKinsey ben. They'll give
Speaker 14: you brilliant ideas, but there's one thing they will never
Speaker 14: give you is how to translate those ideas into results,
Speaker 14: which is executing. And therefore, how do you build good
Speaker 14: teams that are complimentary and willing to get together, to
Speaker 14: work together to deliver superior results better than the next guy.
Speaker 14: Because in minding, if you think about it, generally, we
Speaker 14: all are endowed with good resources. What differentiates the win
Speaker 14: from the non winner is how well we execute to
Speaker 14: deliver that value into the marketplace. Is it about putting
Speaker 14: the right team together? Is it about you talk about
Speaker 14: a vision? Is it about something else?
Speaker 2: I mean, clearly, you've got to sell people on the idea,
Speaker 2: almost make them sort of you know, almost make them
Speaker 2: think it's not quite theirs, but give them ownership of it.
Speaker 14: You know, the idea of selling this concept that we say,
Speaker 14: you've got to sell the idea is important, but the
Speaker 14: idea itself must be compelling. But actually that's not the
Speaker 14: biggest part of building winning teams. Building winning teams is
Speaker 14: about bringing together a group of people who can compliment
Speaker 14: each other in a way that together they are better
Speaker 14: than some of the individual parts. And secondly, it's just
Speaker 14: about you as a leader realizing how do you surround
Speaker 14: yourself with people who are willing to go to war
Speaker 14: with you, We're willing to hold you on your shoulders,
Speaker 14: that they can buy so much into whatever simple idea
Speaker 14: that you've got that not only do they support it,
Speaker 14: but they can actually build it into a much better
Speaker 14: idea because ultimately, if you think about it, I mean
Speaker 14: we all think the most transformational leaders are the ones
Speaker 14: who are We've got these blinding insights and ideas. Yeah,
Speaker 14: you do find the odds anomalies like ill n mask,
Speaker 14: but most of us I just put the human beings
Speaker 14: who are able to orchestrate thousands of people who are
Speaker 14: willing to take sometimes which is ideas which are not
Speaker 14: well phoned and just molded into a winning formula.
Speaker 2: Is leadership in Southern Africa harder than in other places?
Speaker 2: We have very diverse groups of people. Sometimes we argue
Speaker 2: each other until someone from outside Southern Africa comes and
Speaker 2: then we all fight together against that person. I sometimes
Speaker 2: think that is leadership harder in Southern Africa than in
Speaker 2: other places.
Speaker 14: You know, since since I've now had the opportunity to
Speaker 14: have a business in Australia and we set up business
Speaker 14: in Dubai, I used to believe on this mantra that
Speaker 14: if you have worked in South Africa and Southern Africa,
Speaker 14: you probably have very the best training and because it's
Speaker 14: quite tough to operate here. But the reality is actually
Speaker 14: you find every jurisdiction. Every culture is. It's a challenges
Speaker 14: and differences. It's not about whether it's hard to hear
Speaker 14: or not. Is whether we can whether you're able to
Speaker 14: understand the local narrative and the belief systems that make
Speaker 14: people work up day in day out wanting to give
Speaker 14: their best, and your ability to harness that latent energy
Speaker 14: to make people give that extra discussion or effort. And
Speaker 14: it doesn't matter way it is.
Speaker 2: Your extra special shape Shift Tonight is July and Glovell
Speaker 2: the Sierra Tungala Resources. He's with us for another ten minutes.
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Hrutez is brought to you
Speaker 12: by APPS of Corporate and Investment Backing. APPS is a
Speaker 12: proud lead sponsor of B twenty South Africa twenty twenty five,
Speaker 12: The Money Show, Shape.
Speaker 2: Shifters July and Love or your special shape Shifter Tonight
Speaker 2: the er at Tunguala Resources. I do you'll be pleased
Speaker 2: to hear July have some questions about mining. There was
Speaker 2: a time about five years ago when people started to
Speaker 2: get very excited about how the world was changing and
Speaker 2: moving away from coal. There's quite a strong environmental lobby
Speaker 2: in South Africa. We know for example, what happens around
Speaker 2: Escum's coal fired power stations. Did you ever think, I mean,
Speaker 2: there are more and more ways to generate electricity. How
Speaker 2: long do you think we'll be using coal?
Speaker 14: Four steed to appoint you? Or you want me to
Speaker 14: tell it.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, well I'm.
Speaker 14: Knows other than to say that, I think most people
Speaker 14: who have written the obituary for coal would be disappointed
Speaker 14: because the reality is and and and if you go back,
Speaker 14: I mean, I've been talking about call since since five years,
Speaker 14: which is the way you're talking about. If you look
Speaker 14: at the emerging market Southeast Asia, Africa to some extent,
Speaker 14: where there's billions of people who still need to come
Speaker 14: out of energe poverty into the kind of modern energe
Speaker 14: services that the first world actually experience. What they need
Speaker 14: is access to reliable, affordable source of energy. This idea
Speaker 14: that they've got to have a choice, a binary choice
Speaker 14: of either for a few us call in particular or
Speaker 14: renewables for me is a false choice. Yeah, I think
Speaker 14: these energy sources can quite exist, and that certainly is
Speaker 14: what we're seeing in China is a very good example.
Speaker 14: China is deploying renewables faster than anybody else combined on
Speaker 14: the globe today. Indeed, they're building new paser stations. Is
Speaker 14: that reality that if you want to continue to drive
Speaker 14: economic prosperity, particularly in the in the maging markets, you
Speaker 14: can't wish away this energy source that most people would
Speaker 14: like who would love to hate?
Speaker 2: No, sure, I mean I get that. I do wonder
Speaker 2: if we're kind of at peak coal or very close
Speaker 2: to peak coal, and then usage will start to go down,
Speaker 2: possibly quite quickly.
Speaker 14: I think we probably are pick Cole if you ask
Speaker 14: my opinion. The decline is going to depend on a
Speaker 14: number of things. And I think what has slowed down
Speaker 14: decline is, in some instance the activists of the have
Speaker 14: been their own West enemies by exaggerating the extinction of
Speaker 14: humanity if we continued as called.
Speaker 2: That's one.
Speaker 14: But secondly, this idea of any security has become a
Speaker 14: far more dominant issue in developing energy policy in a
Speaker 14: lot of countries, and you beginning to see countries saying
Speaker 14: we can't rely fastly on a concentration of energy from
Speaker 14: one region and or only important energy. And therefore countries
Speaker 14: that if got call within their own borders are beginning
Speaker 14: to develop that as a resource to secure their own
Speaker 14: energy sources going forward, and I think that is what
Speaker 14: is going to slow the decline from what it ordinarily
Speaker 14: would have been.
Speaker 2: Mining in South Africa we're going to ask you a
Speaker 2: political question now, so prepare yourself. Mining in South Africa
Speaker 2: kind of it seems to me to be in a
Speaker 2: complicated space. It is always fighting with government. I thought
Speaker 2: that maybe those fights would come to a stop, but
Speaker 2: they haven't. Why do you think that is? Understand the
Speaker 2: idea that resource extraction is inherently political. Okay, by resource extraction,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about mining. Is it just the character of
Speaker 2: the current minister that's leading to all of these fights?
Speaker 2: Is there something else that's really driving these fights all
Speaker 2: the time, because it's got to be better for everybody
Speaker 2: if there's a better relationship.
Speaker 14: Firstly, I think the I want to to change the
Speaker 14: narrative that this disagreement between or the tension between mining
Speaker 14: and mining industry and government and or communities is a
Speaker 14: South African feature. It's not. I see the same thing
Speaker 14: in Australia where we where we operate that there's always
Speaker 14: tension between the mining industry and government and we're always
Speaker 14: going to be lobbying for policies that actually allow us
Speaker 14: to deliver value the way we do. Part of it
Speaker 14: is actually a consequence of what we're extracting out of
Speaker 14: the ground. It is an endowment that is onned by
Speaker 14: national states, and I think our role is business is
Speaker 14: to realize that we've got to do this not only
Speaker 14: for the benefit of shareholders, but certainly to make sure
Speaker 14: that the people most affected by what we do that
Speaker 14: have entrusted this natural endowment to us a better off
Speaker 14: as a sut of what we do. I accept that
Speaker 14: that tension is never going to go away, but it's
Speaker 14: one I think if we just learned to listen to
Speaker 14: each other, we can manage a lot better. So Africa is,
Speaker 14: by its very nature, very loud country. Sometimes our disagreements
Speaker 14: are a lot louder than actually the reality.
Speaker 2: On the ground. Do you think we can do better
Speaker 2: than we've done? Can we get on a little more
Speaker 2: easily path?
Speaker 14: I think where we can get a lot better is
Speaker 14: not to focus more on our disagreements, but actually to
Speaker 14: focus on those things that we agree on, which is,
Speaker 14: let's grow the mining industry. Let's ensure that investment continues
Speaker 14: to come into this country. Part of it, Stephen, is
Speaker 14: actually a consequence of way South Africa's policy spensation comes
Speaker 14: from there. We actually a lot of our politicians come
Speaker 14: out of the Union, uh, and they've got almost this
Speaker 14: innate zero order belief that business cannot be trusted and
Speaker 14: that's the result. That's what they bring to any conversation
Speaker 14: that we actually have, when in fact we all share
Speaker 14: the same interest. Let's extract this resource economically for the
Speaker 14: betterment not only for shareholders, but actually for the people
Speaker 14: of this country too.
Speaker 2: July, we've got literally a minute left. What do you
Speaker 2: do for fun? You've been running a big company. It's
Speaker 2: very stressful and very stressful environment. Lot's been going on
Speaker 2: around the world. How do you relieve that stress.
Speaker 14: I've got lots of things I do photography, I read
Speaker 14: a lot, and I've got lots of books I need
Speaker 14: to catch up on. And I've discovered golf.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 14: Wow, you should meet me a few months after this. Whatughly,
Speaker 14: I've improved my handicamp. That's what I intend to do,
Speaker 14: hopefully when I stop working and I wake up every
Speaker 14: day without the schedule. You see me on the golf
Speaker 14: course standing in front of winding fairways, imagining what I
Speaker 14: could do to change this world just with the club.
Speaker 2: I can hear you you've retired, you had already what
Speaker 2: kind of photography, wildlife photography, sunsets.
Speaker 14: I I like microphotography. I like event photography because you
Speaker 14: see fascinating things if you go into downtown that you
Speaker 14: can just capture and frame. In that small frame, you
Speaker 14: find history, You find perspectives that you never knew existed.
Speaker 2: July, it's been wonderful to have you here. Thank you
Speaker 2: very much. Indeed, July and Lovo is for a little
Speaker 2: while longer to see her at Tunguela Resources.
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Hurtez is brought to you
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Speaker 12: twenty five.
Speaker 2: Well, before you go off and start thinking about golf
Speaker 2: courses and fairways and things, let me just remind you
Speaker 2: of what's happening about the markets in the US. They
Speaker 2: are trending up now. The Dow Jones is up point
Speaker 2: three percent, anastic just up over a percent, and the
Speaker 2: S and P five hundred up point seventy three. So
Speaker 2: another positive day there don't forget investment school tomorrow, and
Speaker 2: of course so much going on at the moment. We
Speaker 2: saw that with nen Call's results a little earlier today
Speaker 2: being a very busy show. If I may just say,
Speaker 2: it's good to hear from you on the Money Show.
Speaker 2: We're back tomorrow. Good evening, it's eight o'clock