1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: The dialogue with Clement. 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 2: It's not just another roundtable discussion. 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Let's walk the talk on seven not two. 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 2: So on our Thursday dialogue this morning, I want us 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 2: to have a discussion about this difficult and emotionally charged 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: case which has sparked a national conversation once again about 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: religious freedom, children's rights, and medical ethics. It's about this 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: teenage boy. You may have heard about this in the 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: news or read about it. There's a teenage boy who's 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: in critical need of a blood transfusion. He's been treated 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: for a liver and kidney disease, but his family is 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: refusing the treatment on religious grounds. And the case has 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: now drawn the attention of health authorities, legal experts, religious organizations, 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: and it's raising quite a difficult question, which is what 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: takes precedence when the child's right to life and parental 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: between the child's right to life and parental religious rights. 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 2: So who ultimately decides when a child's life is at risk? 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: The parents? Is it the doctors, is it the courts? 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 2: When does the state intervene? I mean, in this country, 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 2: the Constitution protects both freedom of religion and the right 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: to life and health care. But when those rights collide, 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 2: the situation becomes deeply complex. And as I said to 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: you in the first hour, my understanding is that for 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: competent adults, sure, if you don't like or you don't 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: want blood transfusion, you are legally protected under constitutional rights 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: to freedom of religion. If that's the basis of you 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: rejecting blood transfusion, for instance, if it's based on religious grounds, 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: you are protected under the constitutional rights to freedom of religion, 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: bodily autonomy, and human dignity. But when the patient is 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: a child, that legal framework shifts significantly. The right to 31 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: life takes precedents. So as a parent, you can't just 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: refuse life saving treatment based on religious beliefs. So where 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: should the line then be drawn between parental rights and 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: a child's right to life saving care. I would like 35 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: to hear from you. Maybe you understand where this family 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: is coming from, or maybe you've been in the same 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: shoes where you felt, we don't want this medical intervention 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: because it goes against our religious beliefs. Have you done 39 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: that as an adult? Have you done that as parents 40 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: of a young teen of a young child? Give us 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: a call on one one eight eight, three oh seven 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: oh two. Are your whatsaps on seven two seven two 43 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: one seven oh two. Let's start this conversation with Tifelimbilu Luvengo, 44 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: who is the head of Department of Surgery at the 45 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: Charlotte much like an academic hospital. Thank you so much 46 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 2: for making time for us. Good morning, Good. 47 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: Morning, Clement, and good morning to your listeners and extraally. 48 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: I was shaking when I learned that I was going 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 3: to be interviewed by Clement. 50 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: That's okay, sorry say that again, said I missed it. 51 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 4: No, I was shaking, shaking. 52 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: I said, oh no, I don't worry. You don't have 53 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: to shake. You haven't done anything wrong. Only when you've 54 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: done something wrong you should be shaken before you speak 55 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: to me. I appreciate you making time for us. I 56 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: just want to start off with what have you as 57 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: the hospital taken a decision on what to do next 58 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: because the family says no, we don't want blood transfusion 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: based on these religious grounds. I saw the Minister of 60 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: Health advised you as the hospital to perhaps consider approaching 61 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: the CODs. What what's your decision? 62 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I did indicate that it would be helpful to 63 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 3: talk and perhaps in general what we do and and 64 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: and indeed they they fund the head of surgery, Salott 65 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: and and so I'm responsible for the cutting side. But 66 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: we also have got the accounting officers and and and 67 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: the message from the broadly for the message from the 68 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 3: minister was precisely how we do we do things. So, yes, 69 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: we divite our patients into adults, those who are competent 70 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 3: to give consent, and and the regardless of whatever we like, 71 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 3: if a competent person says I don't need this, we 72 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: do not. We follow that. And and for some of them, 73 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 3: if they've given advanced directives, even when they become unconscious, 74 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: we really we go back and see that's what the 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: competent adults and said. When it comes to to patients 76 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 3: who cannot give consent, and and and then the question 77 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 3: is is the parents. Yes, that they're important, but when 78 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: it comes to a crisis where the life of a 79 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: child is at risk, that's that's that's when we do 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 3: present all the options we explain to today to the 81 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: parents or the guardians. And if they still feel that 82 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 3: they some treatment should not be given or they want 83 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 3: to take some parents men say I don't want my 84 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: child to be treated. 85 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 4: I don't want it. 86 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: So so you can, you go to the rights of 87 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: a child, and then we excalated to the the to 88 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: the court if it's necessary, so that we're provided guidance 89 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: and and it's it's not that we know the parents. Parents, 90 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: they still have the right, but where the child life 91 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 3: is at risk and we are sort of guided by 92 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 3: the law to say the child must be should be protected. 93 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 3: I'll give you if I give you examples in the 94 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: past where you know, the child had a very low 95 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 3: h B it's an emergency and we needed to do 96 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 3: the operation. You cannot do the operation in a child 97 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 3: where the hemoglobin is two and and and that operation 98 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: was needed to be done there. The parents refused, we 99 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 3: got the cancer, We've got the religious did that. They 100 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: came or explained, they spoke of different options, and we 101 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 3: said those options they are not going to work. 102 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: Now what options did they give, because I think even 103 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: for instance, they said, there are other alternatives where you 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: can generate blood without you know, going through the blood 105 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: transfusion route. 106 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, which we know, you know, you know they they 107 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 3: will say, for example, gives the drives something that you 108 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: can drive the bone marrow to work faster, to produce 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: more reserve and and and that also has to be 110 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: given time or please when you operate, make sure you 111 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: don't lose you don't lose more blood or what you 112 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: also do. Can't you take blood from this patient, you know, 113 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 3: a day or two before you operate, store it somewhere 114 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: and when you operate, you can give this patient the 115 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: same his or her blood and and and which for 116 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: some religious group is allowed. For others they will say, 117 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 3: the blood has left my body. It cannot happen. But 118 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: you also have a situation where a patient is studying 119 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: on a very low background, in a where struggling, there's 120 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 3: anemia or the breeding problem, so that patient has doesn't 121 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: ever reserve. You cannot you cannot take something to put 122 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: it in the bank with the hope that we give 123 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 3: it back when when when there's no you know, and 124 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 3: you also have I'll just give an example which is 125 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 3: not really the patient we're dealing with. If you have 126 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: a for example, transplant, the donor may be a related 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: relative that is blend. You can say, come that your 128 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: relative is going to donate this organ the operation is 129 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 3: going to be next week. Now, if you have a 130 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 3: situation where the donor is going to be when we 131 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 3: have someone who is unfortunate has passed on and the 132 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: family has you know, agree to donate those organs, which 133 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 3: is something that you cannot predict what's going to happen. 134 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: How then do you do you prepare a patient for 135 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: transplant when you do not know when the organs are 136 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 3: and do those things so that those are some of 137 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: the issues. But where the child is at risk, as 138 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: I said in the past, is escalated through the leadership 139 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: structure and it goes to it goes to the court. 140 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: There is always a judge on call every hour. 141 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: Of the day. 142 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 5: So we've been able to excla yeah. 143 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: Okay, so have you been able to escalate this and 144 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: this matter without getting into the diesels? Have you been 145 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: able to escalate it up to the court? 146 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 4: Yeah? You see. 147 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: The point is, you know, if you are not there yet, 148 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: there's a multi disciplinary that has to sit and explain 149 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 3: this is what we're going to do, and perhaps the 150 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: information and the plan what is going to be done. 151 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: It might have been interpreted as if the operation has 152 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: to do to you know, black transitioners to happen now, 153 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 3: the transplant has to happen now and then so it 154 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: may be that in certain situation there is an explanation 155 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 3: to say when the situation is like this, the transplant 156 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 3: will be necessary. And if it's going to be necessary, 157 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 3: there may be a requirement for blood and blood product transfusion. 158 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: The emphasis people are talking about hemoglobin red cells, but 159 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: blood transfusion is not limited to red cells. There's also 160 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 3: things that makes the body to clot. It's not going 161 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: to be addressed by things that you give too close 162 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 3: to hemo grob in eletropolitan and also dilution. You have 163 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 3: good plaitless day. 164 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for coming through. I appreciate it, 165 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: and I know it's very difficult for us to talk 166 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: about this case because of patient doctor confidentiality, but thank 167 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: you for just broadly helping us understand where you are 168 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: as the hospital and how you deal with these matters. 169 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: Professor Ti phelim Bi lu Luvenggo is the head of 170 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: the Department of Segery at the Charlotte matt Like Academic Hospital. 171 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: It's nineteen minutes after eleven. 172 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: To the dialogue with Clement. 173 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: It's not just another roundtable discussion. 174 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: Let's walk the talk on SAVEN. 175 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: Not all right. Doctor Aaron Motzoldi, who's the Health Minister, 176 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: joins us on the line. We've got Lize Miller as well, 177 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: who's a senior attorney at the Center, who's at the 178 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: Center for Child Law, also joining this conversation. Let's start 179 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: with the Minister of Health. Minister, thank you so much 180 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: for making time. 181 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 4: Good morning, Good morning Clemmond, Good morning to a listener 182 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: of Radio seven o two. 183 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: When doctors believe that a minor needs a for instance, 184 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: blood transfusion to survive, or what procedures must hospitals follow 185 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: if parents refuse that consent, well, I'm. 186 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 4: Sure you've heard from the professor. We have got to 187 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 4: follow procedures in terms of the Children's Act, which says 188 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 4: whatever you do as an adult, you must always act 189 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: in the best interest of the child. That's number one. 190 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 4: Number two, you are aware that the Constitution gives rights, 191 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: and because even if you didn't ask directly, this question 192 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: arose because of religious beliefs. The Constitution gives rights. Some 193 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 4: of the rights are their right to religion and worship 194 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 4: and all that you know. But I still believe the 195 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 4: right to life, some all of them, all the other 196 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 4: rights as such in our consction, and at any rate, 197 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: rights have got limitations in terms of Section thirty nine 198 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 4: of the same Constitution that gives those rights. They're not forever. 199 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 4: They've got very serious limitations. And as such, a right 200 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 4: to life, as saying in my belief, would always tump 201 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 4: all the other rights. 202 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: Okay, So at what point then does the Department of 203 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 2: Health or the courts intervene to ensure that a child 204 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: receives that life saving treatment. So is that you have 205 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: to sit with the family first, you sit with the 206 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 2: religious leaders. How much time do you give it, because 207 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: in some instances the medical intervention is urgently needed. 208 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 4: We are informed by the treating doctor, Clement, the dreading 209 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 4: doctor will determine how agent the issues. And if it's 210 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 4: very agent, that couldn't be a treating doctor, they might 211 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 4: not even be time to consult those religious leaders we 212 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 4: are talking about. If you say an emergency, the treating 213 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 4: surgent in terms of the children's has got the right 214 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: to what you call, let's say, it's not even about religion. 215 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 4: It's just about giving consent, and there's no body to 216 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 4: give some consent. And the child is it's still it's 217 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 4: very young, and you believe that the the what you 218 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 4: call the operation is very agent to save somebody's life. 219 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 4: The threatings general, the super channel of the hospital has 220 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 4: got the right to give that consent. If there's still time, 221 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 4: they can refer to the menist or even go to court. 222 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 4: But it all depends on what the treating doctor is saying. 223 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 4: We guided by by by by by that treating doctor. 224 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: How common are these dispute minister in in healthcare system? 225 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 4: Uh, I knew. I knew them from as far as 226 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 4: I was a student, especially especially and unfortunately I have 227 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 4: to name the name of the religion because I'm not 228 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 4: cooking a story. I'm talking about my experiences, especially with 229 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: people who subscribe to Jehovah's Witness, which during our time 230 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 4: is to be called what Tower. And usually it's about blood. 231 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 4: I don't remember it being about any other thing other 232 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 4: than blood, because it looks like they're in some way 233 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 4: in the Bible that the human being is not to 234 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 4: receive blood from another human being. So that's exactly where 235 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 4: problems always exist, especially when it comes to two children. 236 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 4: When it comes to adults, I mean, if the adult 237 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 4: has pusen to die rather than received blood, it will 238 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: be very difficult for us putting anything. So our biggest 239 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 4: problem has always been with children. 240 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm also just wondering now that in cases 241 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: where the doctors or the state has intervened and said 242 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: this child needs to be saved and or their child, 243 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: they'll right to life takes precedents, and maybe the parents 244 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: aren't heavy with the decision. Do you know of any 245 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: cases where the parents have tried to, maybe you know, 246 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: sue the hospitals. Of course, that would fail because at 247 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: the end of the day, the courts would have to 248 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: look at what the rights to the child are. 249 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 4: They take precedence, they will try to sue the hospital 250 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 4: if the hospital moved on its own. You remember that 251 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 4: this whole thing was also teaked by what I said 252 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 4: to a reporter of Sowetter who was asking me in 253 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 4: general terms, and I spoke about going to court. Obviously, 254 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 4: when you talk to the parents and realize that they're 255 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 4: so adaman that they're going to try to see it's 256 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 4: better to go to court directly, so that to discourage them, 257 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 4: rather than saying the superintendent of the menace that can 258 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 4: just sign and give consent. That's when we ask to 259 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 4: the courts. But during my time as a student, maybe 260 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 4: we did not have to go there because we used 261 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 4: to use other means to save children. Don't make me 262 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 4: talk about this, but there are lots of means which 263 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 4: you do because there's an innocent child, maybe it's a baby, 264 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 4: a new born baby of three mans. You feel so 265 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 4: bad out of me, you know, do believe in something 266 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 4: that I believe does not exist because I don't think 267 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 4: God really is willing that tall must just die even 268 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 4: where help is there, because he is sure that people 269 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 4: cannot receive anybody's PLANOD. So you do other means to 270 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 4: make sure that you save this child. And let me 271 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 4: not talk about that because it was in the all 272 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 4: the days that we used to do something like that, 273 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 4: but received many babies, very very many babies using other methods, 274 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 4: you know, because you can see this is driven by 275 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 4: she believe. You know, religion can can cause well the 276 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 4: wars and all that you do. 277 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: Yes, true, minister, thank you so much. Thank you for 278 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: coming through to join this chair. Doctor Aron Monzoldi is 279 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: the Minister of Health. Lizel Miller, as I said, senior 280 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: attorney at the Center for Child Law Little thank you 281 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 2: so much for also joining this conversation. We're talking here 282 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: about the Constitution, which protects both religious freedom and the 283 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 2: right to life. So when those rights flash, like in 284 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 2: this case involving this child, how does the law resolve it? 285 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 6: Hik Clement, thank you for having me. I'm very grateful 286 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 6: that the Minister already sets out some of the provisions. Indeed, 287 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 6: there is a right to access health care. And then 288 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 6: what we haven't mentioned yet is that the child also 289 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 6: has the right to have their best interests considered paramount 290 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 6: in every matter that affects them. And then there is 291 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 6: also the child's right to participate in decision making about 292 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 6: their health. And so what we haven't really touched on 293 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 6: here is the fact that the Children's Act tells us 294 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 6: when who should give consent. And actually what it says 295 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 6: is that a child who is over the age of 296 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 6: twelve has the right to give consent to medical surgery, 297 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 6: but it says that they must do so with the 298 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 6: assistance of their parents. So if the parents refuse but 299 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 6: the child has a different view, for instance, then like 300 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 6: the Minister said, there's always the option that the superintendent 301 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 6: can override that consent in specific circumstances, to circumstances, specifically 302 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 6: when the urgency is you know, when it's so urgent 303 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 6: that they have to make a decision to save the 304 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 6: child's life I assume, possibly in the middle of an 305 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 6: operation or something like that. And then if the if 306 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 6: refusing the treatment will lead to serious and lasting injury, 307 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 6: the superintendent can also override the decision. Now I agree 308 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 6: with the minister. If I was a superintendent, I would 309 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 6: approach the court before to get to have the court 310 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 6: do the consent, because, like you said, the Act does 311 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 6: not allow the parent to refuse if it is only 312 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 6: on the basis of religion. 313 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 2: What happens though, if the child is under the influence 314 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 2: of the parents. So if the child is over the 315 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: age of twelve and says to the doctors, I do 316 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: not want For instance, let's say this said blood transfusion. 317 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: But because that's what you know, the child also believes, 318 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 2: and that's what the parents, that's a position the parents 319 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 2: have taken, and the child doesn't necessarily want to, you know, 320 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: take a different position. Then what do the doctors do 321 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: in that case when they know that what is best 322 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: in the best interest of this child right now is 323 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: that he receives this medical intervention. But the child says no, 324 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 2: I don't want it, just like my. 325 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 6: Parents say, well, and I mean that's likely the children 326 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 6: follow up and you know, at that point still the 327 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 6: religion of their parents. But even the child's contains or 328 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 6: refusal can be overturned by a court, and so when 329 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 6: they're in court, they will have two weigh up various factors, 330 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 6: and so the best interest is one of them, and 331 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 6: the best interest isn't as straightforward as just you know, 332 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 6: not letting children die. There's also the interest of the 333 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 6: child being part of his community, the possibility being shunned 334 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 6: once he's had a blood transfusion. So there are many 335 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 6: things to consider when you're defining on the best interest. 336 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 6: But these cases have so far the courts have, in 337 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 6: all the cases that I've been that I'm aware of, 338 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 6: overridden that refusal and granted the hospital the authority to 339 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 6: go ahead with the operation. But there is a case 340 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 6: in the UK, and this could very well happen here 341 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 6: where a child who was over twelve refused cancer treatment 342 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 6: and the court did not. The court respected his wishes 343 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 6: and I think he eventually died without getting cancer treatment. 344 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 6: So it's definitely possible for a child to have a 345 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 6: different view and to refuse treatment and for the court 346 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 6: to be okay with that. So that's why I'm very 347 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 6: interested to know what the views of this child is. 348 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So in your experience a little, do these cases, 349 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: you know, usually end up in court and how quickly? Then? 350 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: In your experience, have you seen decisions being made, you know, 351 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: when time is so critical because sometimes you know, you 352 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: need urgently to get that blood transfusion and the transplant 353 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: has to happen now, or maybe in other medical emergencies 354 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 2: where there's not really time to wait for three days 355 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: before a judge can make a room on the matter. 356 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: How do they not really handle these cases? 357 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 6: I mean, an urgent matter can come before a judge 358 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 6: at any point, so I mean normally there's just kind 359 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 6: of the considerations of being able to you know, put 360 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 6: your case before court and then for the other party 361 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 6: to you know, bring their case, so you need at 362 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 6: least a few hours, you know. But there are cases 363 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 6: where you find out the judges cirk and say, look, 364 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 6: can we can we come see you, you know, at 365 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 6: five o'clock today, And that's possible, But like you say, 366 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 6: when it's something that kind of has to happen in 367 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 6: the next hour or two, then the superintend it will 368 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 6: make the decision without the court supervision and then you know, 369 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 6: place the consequences later. But like the Minister, state the 370 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 6: difference and it will likely you know, find favor with 371 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 6: the court. Is this was truly an emergency? 372 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, it's it's quite something else. It's eleven thirty one. 373 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: Let's get the latest in play. 374 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: Witness held the dialogue with Clement. 375 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: It's not just another roundtable discussion. Let's walk the talk. 376 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: Seven not twenty four minutes before twelve o'clock. All right, 377 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: So you've heard from the Minister of Health, doctor Aaron Mozzoledi. 378 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 2: You've heard from the head of the Department of Surgery 379 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: at Charlotte much like the academic hospital. You've heard from 380 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: Lizzie Muller, who is a senior attorney at the center 381 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: of a child law. I think you sort of get 382 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: a sense of what does the law say when there 383 00:23:53,480 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: is a clash between the rights to religious freedom, right 384 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,239 Speaker 2: and the right to life. What do you do what 385 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 2: actually takes precedence in a matter that involved a child? 386 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 2: That involves a child. It was interesting that lizel mentioned 387 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: this case in the UK where a child who was 388 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: about twelve or so refused cancer treatment and died later on, 389 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: and the doctors had to respect that decision. And I 390 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 2: wonder in cases where yes, the child is under the 391 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: authority of the parents, and maybe the hospital says, we 392 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: are going to overrule the parents by actually approaching the 393 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: courts to give us the green light to practice what 394 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: the constitution says, which is the right of the child, 395 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: takes precedence in a matter where parents may want to 396 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: say no to certain medical interventions on the basis of 397 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 2: their religious beliefs. But what if that child also says, 398 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: I agree with my parents, I don't want blood transfusion, 399 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: like in this case, I mean the child. I'm not 400 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: aware if this child has said anything in this matter. 401 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: I think he's about fourteen fifteen, yeah, fourteen fifteen. But 402 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: if the child says I also don't want it, what 403 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: do the doctors do. Do they do like the doctors 404 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: did in the UK when the child said I don't 405 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: want cancer treatment, and you say to the child, Okay, 406 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: if you don't want blood transfusion, this is the only 407 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: option that can work for you right now. And then 408 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: do you just say to the child, then we'll have 409 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: to just keep you here until your lost breath. How 410 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: do you handle that? I mean, it sounds really complicated 411 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 2: to me. Let's chat on one one, eight, eight three 412 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 2: or seven oh two. Doctors Musa you calling us from 413 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: so wait to good morning? 414 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 7: How are you? 415 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: It's Adam, I'm okay, how are you good man? 416 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 7: You know, I think we just as South Africa as 417 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 7: h ass as people sometimes with of education and educate 418 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 7: ourselves is important. Let me tell you, I'm not so 419 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 7: much about talking about this case in particular, but the 420 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 7: case is an organ donation in general, where we die 421 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 7: with our useful kidneys, useful cornea useful heart because of 422 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 7: some religious beliefs that God or someone on the other 423 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 7: side or my answerstors on the other side or ask 424 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 7: me this and then. But people are happy to donate blood, 425 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 7: which is also easy if you can argue it's an organ. 426 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 7: Blood is an organ, you know. And I think people 427 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 7: in general are for donation and receiving. I know instances 428 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 7: where someone over all their their pre decisions, they left 429 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 7: so they listen. I don't listen to this, guys. I 430 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 7: want this thing. Okay, you give it to me, Okay, 431 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 7: the very same relig religious But I want to go 432 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 7: further and say, you know, I think you should have 433 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 7: this talk where we discuss organ donations because I can't. 434 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 7: I think in this country we want to donate, but 435 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 7: we just are not given an opportunity to do that 436 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 7: and to donate our skin donate everything in other countries, 437 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 7: believe it or not, clements people opt out of donations. 438 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 7: So everyone is assumed to want to donate. So if 439 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 7: you don't want to donate, you're gonna go and make 440 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 7: an application to say I want to die with my organs. 441 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 7: I'm not gonna donate. But when you die and you've 442 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 7: not you're not objet out, then we're gonna use the organs. 443 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 7: I think it's the best thing. I mean in this 444 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 7: country of psychologist, a simple thing as a cornea. They 445 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 7: have to get it from the US Europe people who 446 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 7: want it and people are dying and either closed I 447 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 7: mean with close two guys like you know what I mean, 448 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 7: like we should we should have that. I wanted to 449 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 7: sweature a minister on that that. I think we should 450 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 7: they should lovey know whatever, white pep what what what 451 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 7: in comments on in this country we should help this 452 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 7: option of option out. We are assumed to want to donate. 453 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 7: If you don't want to sign. 454 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so then it becomes just an assumption and 455 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: if you don't want, if you want to opt out, 456 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: you have to go through the process. Yeah, I got you. 457 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: Doctors Kombozo, thank you for your call. Let's hear what 458 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: the other listeners think. Let me bring in quickly Mosare 459 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: who is the founder of Open Eye Foundation, who is 460 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: also an organ donation recipient. And Mosa thank you so 461 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: much for joining our conversation. 462 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 5: Good morning, Oh, thank you so much to you, Hi guys, 463 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 5: and good into the disins as well. 464 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: My understanding is that you you you work with a 465 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: lot of families, you have to cancel them who often 466 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: have to receive organ donations. What what what are the 467 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: scenarios that you normally deal with. I suppose you are 468 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: not surprised of this case that we're seeing at Charlotte 469 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: Ment like the academic hospital. 470 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 5: Yes, thank you so much. Well, firstly, let me start 471 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 5: by really saying that a great work. Get seven or 472 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 5: two for bringing up this topic. I mean it's a huge, 473 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 5: huge topic or deal in our country. I'm quite young. 474 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 8: I was. 475 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 5: I'll just give a bit of a background a bit. 476 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 5: I was diagnosed with keeping favor at the age of 477 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 5: twenty one, and so you can imagine at that age, 478 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 5: I was quite confused. They didn't know what's happening. I 479 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 5: was quite sick, very very sick. And we started this 480 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 5: organization to ensure that would educate parise black people on 481 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 5: chronic illnesses that lead to organ failure. But our main 482 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 5: mission is to ensure that black people understand the importance 483 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 5: of organ donation, blood donation, all the organs, heart, liver, 484 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 5: and kicknings as well. So eventually I got transplant cented 485 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 5: twenty thirteen. I mean that really saved my life, lived 486 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 5: my life, the lives of my family as well, because 487 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 5: I could work when I was sick. I mean, don't 488 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 5: want dialysis every day, three times a week. You know, 489 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 5: it's quite difficult, so you can't really to match. So 490 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 5: I just want people to get the context of how 491 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 5: important organ donation or maybe transplant is, isnt blood transfusion, 492 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 5: how important it is because we thought that we're going 493 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 5: to have a problem, We're gonna have problems. I myself 494 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 5: have received blood numerous times because it would be animic 495 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 5: if you're keeping failure. And one also when they do 496 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 5: the operation, of course, when they do a transplant, they 497 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 5: would need to transfuse them, so yeah, man, we've dealt 498 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 5: with a lot of families. Can you get to your 499 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 5: question quickly? I will dealt with a number of family 500 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 5: But this is not a issue. It's quite not that 501 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 5: common back years. It happens that you find people that 502 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 5: believe strongly in religion that they say they don't want 503 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 5: blood transfusion. But in this case, then find a young person, 504 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 5: a child for that mental minor someone that his parents 505 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 5: have to say yes or no to receiving blood or 506 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 5: the organ to religious beliefs. Our job is to just 507 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 5: advise feminist you know. Our job is to also stand 508 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 5: on the fence and talk to doctors to make them understand, 509 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 5: you know, because I understand where black people come from 510 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 5: in terms of their cultural or their religious beliefs, and 511 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,719 Speaker 5: we need to uphold we need to really uphold those decisions. However, 512 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 5: like I said, it's quite different in this case because 513 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 5: child needs an organ and we need to ensure that 514 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 5: in everything that we do, life is. 515 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 2: Preserved. 516 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 517 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: Well, what are some of the concerns that you know, 518 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: families would raise with you, people who would later on 519 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: be recipients of organs that that that get donated. Do 520 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: you find that the reason that is being advanced for 521 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: refusing the donations, whether giving or receiving is based on 522 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 2: religious reasons or sometimes it's just people who are scared, 523 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: who don't really understand what this process entails. 524 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 5: Look, we've we've we've we've done quite a lot of educational, 525 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 5: educational semin as. We've done a lot of campaigns. I mean, 526 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 5: I've workedometers from Solito to Pretoria, anotherkilometers in the Eastern 527 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 5: Cape working for a guy by the name of Oliphant 528 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 5: who needed a kidney. So we're doing campaign to campaign 529 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 5: for organ donation in the country. Look, people, people, when 530 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 5: you're in a situation where you're supposed to receive an organ, look, 531 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 5: that's the only thing you want, you know, you want 532 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 5: to get that organ so that your life can get 533 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 5: back to normal. And we find out that people make 534 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 5: unimportant decisions. You know, our people are not well educated 535 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 5: in terms of organ donation or rather how or what 536 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 5: what will the organ do for you? You know, our 537 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 5: people are not well educated. And our people do receive 538 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 5: the message gender education very well. I mean ability to 539 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 5: clinics of being in hospitals. You know, we've sat down, 540 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 5: we've discussed this with the Department as well, the only 541 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 5: thing is that we need to do more campaigns. We 542 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 5: need to educate our people even more in schools, you know, 543 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 5: even in churches. I remember a campaign traditional healers here 544 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 5: in so Way too, and we have over we have 545 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 5: over three hundred traditional healers and the discussion was simple, 546 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 5: Please do advise people to go see the doctor if 547 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 5: they do come to you and the we suspect that 548 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 5: this person has engage keeping failure or this person needs 549 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 5: and again also adviser that they should take blood or 550 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 5: that orgain that their answertors won't have a problem with 551 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 5: them receiving that that organ. So it's a bit of 552 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 5: a of a cash need two challenge that we are 553 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 5: faced with as an organization because we have to actually 554 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 5: educate our people and explain to them the importance of 555 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 5: organ donation and that they need to donate organst not 556 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 5: blood only, but we do in those orgainst in our country. 557 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's a serious need. Mosa, thank you for 558 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 2: coming through. Masampora, founder of Open Eye Foundation and organ 559 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: is also an organ recipient. It's thirteen minutes now before talk. 560 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: The dialogue with Clement. 561 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 9: It's not just another round table discussion let's walk the 562 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 9: talk save a All right, let's hear from you now 563 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 9: on one one eight three seven on two, Bennard, let's 564 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 9: start with you. 565 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 2: You're calling from Victoria. Good morning, Go ahead. What are 566 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 2: your thoughts? 567 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 10: Climent? My question is very simple and short. I want 568 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 10: to know why is it the big issue to those 569 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 10: Christians who uphold Gods standard rules? 570 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: What do you mean? 571 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 10: Why is the big is a big issue? Our listen 572 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 10: over the radio? Why it's such a big issue if 573 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 10: someone opposed to God standard rules and he wants to 574 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 10: die or or she wants to die with her boots on, 575 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 10: depending on God standard rules. 576 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 4: In terms of what are. 577 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 2: Got standard rules? What are those Gods standard rules? 578 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 10: What's rules? He says, don't share any blood of another 579 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 10: person into your own body. 580 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: So you can share paths, but not blood if it. 581 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 10: Don't share any parts or any form of bloody. 582 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: Child can have a liver transplant, but just not the blood. 583 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 2: But he can take an organ that belongs to somebody else. 584 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 10: Even that the one God that approved. 585 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 2: So why did the parents then bring the child to hospital? Then? 586 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: Why why are the parents then bringing the child to hospital? 587 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 2: What one other option do you think is there? 588 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 4: So? 589 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 2: If in this case, the child has a serious critical 590 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 2: kidney and liver disease which requires a transplant. The family 591 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: knows that if the family believes that there must never 592 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 2: be an organ transplant or there must never be the 593 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 2: share of blood, what are you taking the child to 594 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 2: the hospital for. 595 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 10: Because because the child was seriously ill and maybe parents 596 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 10: they were not away if there would be some sort 597 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 10: of an organ transplant or you know, anything that related 598 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 10: to blood. Man, But now the doctors have told them 599 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 10: and they will tell them their position, so they'll take 600 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 10: the child's out the end or rely on God. 601 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 2: No, I understand, Oh he's just got the call. My 602 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: understanding is that the parents don't necessarily have an issue 603 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 2: with the liver transplant. It's just the blood transfusion. But 604 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 2: the doctors are saying, no, no, no, if we go 605 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 2: through that surgery, this child is going to die. There's 606 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 2: going to be complications. The likelihood is he won't survive 607 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 2: because we need blood transfusion. So the family says no, 608 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 2: come up with other alternatives. So if is the issue 609 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 2: the blood or is the issue the paths as well? 610 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: My understanding is that the family hasn't raised the issue 611 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 2: of the again but once again, the doctors also rely 612 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 2: on what the constitution says, and our constitution is very clear. 613 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 2: You as an adult can say no, I don't want 614 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 2: blood transfusion. I don't want the transplant. But if you're 615 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: representing a child, what takes precedents here is the child's 616 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 2: right to life. So you, as a parent may feel 617 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: that our religion doesn't allow us to even do a 618 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: blood transfusion to save this child's life, but the doctors 619 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 2: have to rely on what the constitution says in an 620 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 2: instance where the right to religious freedom and the right 621 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 2: to life collide. In a case where it's the parent's 622 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,399 Speaker 2: religious reasons who are guardians of the child, the right 623 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 2: to life for this child takes precedents. But if the 624 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 2: child is twelve thirteen and says no. In the UK, 625 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: they've allowed the child who's refused cancer treatment who later died, 626 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: and I suppose in our context here, maybe the doctor's 627 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 2: also allow that. But I'd like to hear from the 628 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 2: doctors themselves who have faced something similar job. What are 629 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 2: your thoughts? 630 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 11: Good morning, good morning, Can you hear me? 631 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 2: Yes, we can go ahead. 632 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 8: I'd just like to say that that prohibition was put 633 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 8: in the Bible in the Book of Leveticus and then 634 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 8: brought again to Christians in the Book of Acts. And 635 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 8: so this is a very important thing because even specialists 636 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 8: have used artificial blood with success and with a good recovery. 637 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 8: And also doctor Denson Cooley his book, he mentioned that 638 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 8: he would not allow any of his family to have blood. 639 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 11: Because it's like Russian roulette. You don't know what disease 640 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 11: is going to come from that blood. So this is 641 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 11: a prominent person. And other than that, they asked, as 642 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 11: I said, asked specialists who will successfully use artificial blood. 643 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 2: They have done it. 644 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 11: So the creator of the universe, the creator of men, 645 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 11: knows what's bast for us. We don't always know exactly 646 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 11: the reason, but that's then he's put a pay for us. 647 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 11: So each one must a sad who do they want 648 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 11: to please? 649 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 2: All right, thank you, thank you Shelly for your contribution. 650 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 2: N'msa you're encampedent part good morning morning. 651 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 12: I advocate for blood or orgain donation, but the problem 652 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 12: that we experience in our community. While the people that 653 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 12: I was a child giving a lecture, she said to me, hey, 654 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 12: challenge is dead if she donates her path and later 655 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 12: in life hey, children that experiencing problem and they go 656 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 12: and see a sangle mouth for whatever reasons, and that 657 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 12: some grama will be telling them that which is bed 658 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 12: luck because your mother or your father is crying. And 659 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 12: then you'll like ask them what happened to your mom 660 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 12: and they will be like say, my mom died suddenly, 661 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 12: but she donated a liver and what ever. And then 662 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 12: he said, then the single almost starts conceising them, because 663 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 12: that is what is happening in our community, confusing them 664 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 12: that your matter is crying because he's complaining, where is 665 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 12: he livera? Meanwhile those are just doing this. I think 666 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,399 Speaker 12: the challenge in our community we still need to teach 667 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 12: people about that because yes year is that they're going 668 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 12: to experience that luck about their parents who are complaining 669 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 12: but by apple or because one again, what's itchally even 670 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 12: to another person? 671 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that's my story. 672 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your call, Hilda, you're in force, Lores, 673 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 2: good morning. 674 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 13: Good morning, Tlament. 675 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 2: Clement. 676 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,479 Speaker 13: I thought the minister will be there because I wrote 677 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 13: him an email yesterday. Treament, I'm a real leologist by professions. 678 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 13: I'm registered under Allied Health Professional Professional Counsel so We've 679 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 13: got two bodies of the government, the Health Professional counselor 680 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 13: doctors who are practicing Karl medicine, doctors who are registered 681 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 13: under Allies Health Professional Counsel practicing using natural medicine, so reflectology, homeopathy, 682 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 13: natural perths and other professions were not available in our 683 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 13: country until doctors who came from overseas, they came in 684 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 13: the country and open schools so we study and then 685 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 13: all these professions Homo Party reflectors, they went to parliament 686 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 13: so for approval until the Minister of Health Mantosha balam 687 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 13: Simanga has approved in two thousand and two. Seis people 688 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 13: of South Africa have got now a freedom of choice 689 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 13: as to how they heal. They can now then Allied 690 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 13: Professional Council has formed. So my problem with this, we 691 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 13: were hoping that these professions, because we're not available in 692 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 13: our country, want this to wear for our people. It 693 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 13: will be available in public hospitals because my truty is 694 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 13: to stimulate the organs that are malfunctioning. The actual concut. 695 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,800 Speaker 13: The Chinese doctors were at t Unchid are available, but 696 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 13: we are not allowed to work in public hospitals. We 697 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,320 Speaker 13: wait privately and our poor people they don't have money 698 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 13: to come to us. If the minister, why I wrote him, 699 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 13: you say they, I remind him that look, we want 700 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 13: her to work in public hospital. This has been proved 701 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 13: that the plopment. If you don't allow this, must cope 702 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 13: to the Parliament that you don't want this treatment from 703 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 13: our people. So I'm expecting his email today. If you 704 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 13: don't RESPECD said to him, come come to Copet, to 705 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 13: the media people myself. You're depriving people. Even this the 706 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 13: blood transfiguring for the child, the plant must go to 707 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 13: the machine and come there to. 708 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:35,439 Speaker 7: The point that one is wrong. 709 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 13: You've got to talk machines. Way we put your foot 710 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 13: and connect the machines and then the plot can be 711 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 13: clean natural without being extracted from your board those professions 712 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 13: the minister now so now I don't know. I'm waiting 713 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,839 Speaker 13: for his answer that you can wait with him. There 714 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 13: doctors under allied professional countries that they can say this. 715 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 2: Child okay, and you're in boxible high Hi. 716 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 14: I'm in Boksburg and I am a social work transplant professional. 717 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,479 Speaker 14: And yes, the organ donation is very important and maybe 718 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 14: based on the first speaker is that there's always an 719 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 14: assessment that needs to be done to determine whether the 720 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:22,439 Speaker 14: family can protect and still protect the organ that will 721 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 14: be given to the individual. So there are a lot 722 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 14: of cycle education that needs to be provided. 723 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,280 Speaker 8: To patients and the family. 724 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 14: Yet sometimes the blood times it's a lot of customer 725 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 14: around thoughts. 726 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I have to cut it there. The line 727 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 2: is deteriorating so bad, and I really would have loved 728 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 2: to hear from you as a transplant social worker. It's 729 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 2: dien a minutes, not before top