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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen.

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Speaker 2: Credits on seven oh two.

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Speaker 1: Let's walk little.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by Absent Corporate and Investment Banking, proud sponsors of GTR

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Speaker 3: Africa twenty twenty six enabling trade flows for growth at

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Speaker 3: its richtert FSP. Good evening, Welcome to the program. Seven

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Speaker 3: minutes after six. I'm Stephen Curtis. Quite a dramatic day,

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Speaker 3: all because of higher oil prices. And we had been

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Speaker 3: told that once we got to the one week ten

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Speaker 3: days mark or so in the conflict in the Middle

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Speaker 3: East around Iran, well suddenly we'd see oil prices going up.

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Speaker 3: They have come down a little bit in the last hour,

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Speaker 3: but very high, at one point above one hundred and

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Speaker 3: eighteen dollars a barrel, going down to around one hundred

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Speaker 3: dollars a barrel now but still that's being crude, but

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Speaker 3: still very very strong oil prices changes. There are forecasts

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Speaker 3: for the rest of the year comprehensively. We're expecting lower inflation,

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Speaker 3: lower interest rates would make everything sort of easier. This

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Speaker 3: would be the year to grow, and suddenly all of

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Speaker 3: that might just fall away. Well, let's hold thumbs that

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Speaker 3: something happens so that that doesn't happen. And of course

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Speaker 3: I get the sense if you look at the response

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Speaker 3: of Iran to what's happening in the attacks that they've

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Speaker 3: received from Israel and the US, they're not going to

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Speaker 3: give in easily. So I fear that this might go

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Speaker 3: on for some time now. We will talk to the

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Speaker 3: packaging company Impact in a moment. Their CEOs brew Strong.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot going on there. They've had the big

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Speaker 3: upgrade at them Quondor mill that had other issues. Does

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Speaker 3: seem that Citrus is helping them out. Looking forward to

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Speaker 3: that conversation. A bit curious about why there's a fall

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Speaker 3: in demand for wheelibins, though they said I would have

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Speaker 3: thought that would be pretty consistent oil prices. Of course

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Speaker 3: a big issue. Will speak to the head of Global

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Speaker 3: Emerging Markets at sun Dam for Olzbasa about that some

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Speaker 3: ton having a big day to day their latest results.

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Speaker 3: Will speak to their chief financial officer of Vicas Eila.

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Speaker 3: Fear seems that they've had fewer bad weather events. I

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Speaker 3: think where there's becoming more and more big issue in

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Speaker 3: insurance and then labor department getting ten thousand new labor inspectors.

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Speaker 3: What that's gonna do. Tony Healey's a labor consultant and

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Speaker 3: icon labor consultants. We'll speak to him about that. Good

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Speaker 3: to year from you tonight on a double one double

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Speaker 3: three oh seven oh two and two one four four,

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Speaker 3: six oh five six seven Voice Notes two of course

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Speaker 3: on O seven two seven oh two one seven oh.

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Speaker 4: Two Thelney Show with Stephen Cruders Live on ninety two

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Speaker 4: point seven and one six FM, Training on the Prime

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Speaker 4: Media Plus.

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Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 3: We won't just talk about oil prices tonight, though, I

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Speaker 3: was going through the sense statement from av I. They

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Speaker 3: had six month results out today and they said one

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Speaker 3: of the things that helped their bottom line or the

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Speaker 3: headline earnings was biscuit innovation. You did hear that correctly.

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about innovations and the biscuit category, and I

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Speaker 3: have a couple of questions for you. What makes a

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Speaker 3: perfect biscuit? What makes you buy one biscuit and not

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Speaker 3: the There Now, I'm expecting you please to come back

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Speaker 3: with taste quality, What tastes better with a cup of tea?

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Speaker 3: What tastes better with a cup of coffee? But I

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Speaker 3: think probably a cup of tea for a bikie. Hey,

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Speaker 3: cup of tea. If you want to be a little boring,

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Speaker 3: you can and tell me you'll go for the biscuit

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Speaker 3: with the least calories. If you have to be that person,

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Speaker 3: that's fine. I wonder if the biscuit market can sort

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Speaker 3: of do what the soda market has done with you

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Speaker 3: can kind of get you know, coke zero, pepsi zero,

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Speaker 3: whatever it's called, all of those things. But innovation in

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Speaker 3: the biscuit market, What for you makes a perfect biki?

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Speaker 3: And when do you have them?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Seven two, seven oh two one seven o two The.

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Speaker 1: Money Show with Steven On seven o two seven o two.

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Speaker 3: The paper and packaging company Impact confirming more demand for

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Speaker 3: boxes to transport citrus fruit, helping them to trade strongly

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Speaker 3: in a difficult economy. Revenue up five percent, headline earnings

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Speaker 3: per sere where lower. Bruce Strong's the CEO at Impact, Bruce,

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Speaker 3: good evening. You've been investing in the business. There's the

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Speaker 3: big upgrade at the condor mill. Is that investment paying

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Speaker 3: off yet? Or do you still need to wait a

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Speaker 3: little while.

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Speaker 6: Good Evening, Stephen. In fact, that project was only completed

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Speaker 6: during the second half of last year, and it takes

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Speaker 6: quite a while for those projects to ramp up, so

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Speaker 6: it's not yet contributing to earnings, which is one of

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Speaker 6: the reasons why our return on capital is still relatively

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Speaker 6: low considering that size of that investment. But we've still

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Speaker 6: remain very optimistic that it will deliver great returns in

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Speaker 6: the future. And we're benefiting now from some of the

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Speaker 6: projects that we've did in that we've done in the

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Speaker 6: past focused on the citrus exports, which you mentioned, and

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Speaker 6: they've helped us in what was otherwise a very difficult market.

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Speaker 3: How important is the citrus industry becoming The industry has

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Speaker 3: been growing very strongly. Some other sectors of your business

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Speaker 3: you are very low demand, is such as suddenly becoming

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Speaker 3: a lot more important.

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Speaker 6: So we took a viewer probably ten years ago that

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Speaker 6: we need to focus our business on sectors of the

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Speaker 6: economy that are not necessarily completely reliant on consumer spending

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Speaker 6: growth in South Africa, and one of the is export fruit.

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Speaker 6: And we've got a long history of South Africa of

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Speaker 6: very successful producers of both citrus and other fruits and

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Speaker 6: fresh produce that have developed their businesses despite not having

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Speaker 6: much support or government intervention, which is quite unusual because

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Speaker 6: most of those industries are supported by governments around the world,

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Speaker 6: and so we've invested quite extensively behind that sector. We've

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Speaker 6: also invested behind the returnable crate sector, which is quite

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Speaker 6: an interesting business. You mentioned the wheeli bins earlier, because

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Speaker 6: you don't need a lot of consumer spending growth to

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Speaker 6: see growth in wheelibins, because that's about the service delivery.

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Speaker 6: And also the recycling industry, where you've seen more and

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Speaker 6: more businesses move towards socially economy type business models, and

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Speaker 6: that is not just a dream for us, it is

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Speaker 6: our business. We collected over six hundred and fourteen million

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Speaker 6: telegrams of recyclables last year, most of which we used

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Speaker 6: in our own business to make new products, and we

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Speaker 6: are by far the biggest recycle on the African continent,

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Speaker 6: I have to say. So those are all areas that

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Speaker 6: you can develop your business in spite of a relatively

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Speaker 6: weak consumer economy. But make no mistake, it's not tough

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Speaker 6: out there, even from a consumer point of view. And

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Speaker 6: otherwise in South Africa and the citrus and other agricultural

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Speaker 6: products helped us last year.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what's the margin on a citrus box because

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Speaker 3: it has to do certain things. It has to be

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Speaker 3: very light, it has to protect the fruit. Quite a

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Speaker 3: lot must go into it, and if you specialize in it,

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Speaker 3: you can probably reduce your costs.

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Speaker 6: Look, make no mistake, it's a very competitive business making

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Speaker 6: fruit cortons. Generally, they generally highly decorated, and they require

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Speaker 6: a lot of reliability and strength in quality, because it's

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Speaker 6: not unusual for a citrus carton to leave South Africa

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Speaker 6: and only rather at its destination four to six weeks later.

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Speaker 6: And now with all these traveils in the Middle East,

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Speaker 6: you'll find a lot of the fruit might be left

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Speaker 6: in transit somewhere. So if your fruit boxes are not strong,

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Speaker 6: you eventually compromise the entire palette or the entire content

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Speaker 6: of fruit when it arouses its destination. Because often that

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Speaker 6: fruit is priced on inspection. So if people open the containers,

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Speaker 6: they see how the boxes look and how the fruit

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Speaker 6: looks inside the boxes, and they'll choose a price on

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Speaker 6: that basis. And so if you don't have good quality

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Speaker 6: boxes which are reliable, then you are compromising the entire shipment.

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Speaker 6: And so it is. I wouldn't say there's huge margins,

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Speaker 6: but it's a higher value product for good reason, and

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Speaker 6: we're very pleased to be in that sector.

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Speaker 3: The low demand for wheelibins, I mean, as you say,

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Speaker 3: it's about service delivery. Normally we rent them from the council.

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Speaker 3: If you go through your council, though, you'll see a

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Speaker 3: sort of rental for a wheelibin. I would have thought

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Speaker 3: demand for that would be pretty consistent.

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Speaker 6: What changed, Well, there should be consistent demand, but unfortunately

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Speaker 6: some of our municipalities are not that gear to spending

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Speaker 6: the money they've been allocated, and so we have seen

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Speaker 6: in the last couple of years that you know, the

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Speaker 6: budgets haven't been fully utilized in some cases, and in

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Speaker 6: other cases they've run out of budget before they've fulfill

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Speaker 6: all the requirements. So, as you correctly point out, they

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Speaker 6: are very much service delivery oriented, and we often see

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Speaker 6: when it comes to local government elections arise in the

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Speaker 6: purchases of wheelibins because there's no better indication of service

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Speaker 6: delivery than somebody getting a new WHEELI binch. So that

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Speaker 6: was quite unusual to see that drop in demand last year.

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Speaker 6: But we're still optimistic that going forward we'll still see

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Speaker 6: a recovery in that area because still a large percentage

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Speaker 6: of the South African population is unserviced by refuse removal.

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Speaker 6: And the best way to achieve that is by giving

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Speaker 6: them wheelbins, and you know the appropriate infrastructure to do so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you would think that that might be the way

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Speaker 3: to do it. You can use them for all sorts

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Speaker 3: of things anyway. And I remember, going back twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: I think it was you were very worried about electricity

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Speaker 3: supplies then sort of stage six load shedding. At the time,

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Speaker 3: you invested in generating your own power. Looking back now

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Speaker 3: we don't have load shedding anymore. Has it saved you

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Speaker 3: my money? Has it been worth it?

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Speaker 7: Yes, Stephen.

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Speaker 6: Today we have eighteen megawatts or power embedded into our

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Speaker 6: business and that saved us over forty five million rand

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Speaker 6: in costs last year compared to grid consumption. So I'd

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Speaker 6: say it's definitely paid back. And in many cases in

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Speaker 6: our converting operations, those solo installations do allow us to

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Speaker 6: operate without the grid in many cases, so they do

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Speaker 6: not only provide a lot cost, but they provide some

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Speaker 6: resilience against power interruptions that is more difficult in the

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Speaker 6: larger operations. But no doubt they've contributed very nicely over

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Speaker 6: the last couple of years.

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Speaker 3: I mean that must going forward, that will really help

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Speaker 3: your business to sort of stay profitable, maybe even employ

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Speaker 3: more people simply with simply by getting off the grid.

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Speaker 6: Indeed, I think that is the case really strong.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much, indeed, cooed impact. So interesting to see

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Speaker 3: companies reporting back on the investments they've made. I haven't

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Speaker 3: come across one that regretted, I must just say. And

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Speaker 3: if you look at the cost of electricity and how skyrocketed,

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Speaker 3: you can see why. Seventeen after six.

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Speaker 2: Stephen is on.

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Speaker 1: The Money Show six to eight PM.

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Speaker 3: All sorts of consequences beginning to come through already from

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Speaker 3: higher oil prices, South African government bonds having their words

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Speaker 3: set up since the pandemic. Over the last kind of

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Speaker 3: eight days, inflation predictions changing dramatically, huge concern interest rates

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Speaker 3: will stay higher for longer, and of course massive concern

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Speaker 3: about much higher fuel prices here for those buses. The

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Speaker 3: head of global Emerging markets at slum investments for all's

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Speaker 3: good evening. The conflict in the Middle East or around

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Speaker 3: Iran really started last weekend. It seemed to take until

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Speaker 3: this weekend for oil prices to really jump to go

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Speaker 3: past one hundred dollars a barrel. What happened at that

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Speaker 3: point that suddenly pushed oil prices so high? Was it

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Speaker 3: just a realization this is going to go on for

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Speaker 3: a while.

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Speaker 8: Yes, good evening, Stephen. I think it's a it's a

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Speaker 8: few things, right. So initially the US and Israel thought,

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Speaker 8: you know, they would take out the leader of Iran,

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Speaker 8: the supreme leader, and it will be over quickly. They'll

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Speaker 8: be uprising and it would be over quite quickly. The

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Speaker 8: sooner they realized that it wouldn't you know, the attacks

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Speaker 8: continued from both sides, and Iran did exactly what they

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Speaker 8: said they would do.

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Speaker 7: They attacked all the.

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Speaker 8: Proxies in the Middle East, Bahrain, Saudi, the UAE, all

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Speaker 8: of these regions, and Kata got eat quite significantly, and

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Speaker 8: they closed the Strait of Humus. So that combination sparked

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Speaker 8: fear because twenty five percent of global crude oil goes

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Speaker 8: through the Strait of Humus.

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Speaker 7: But also, you know, Kata.

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Speaker 8: Switched off their gas reserves, Saudi, all of these regions

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Speaker 8: started shutting down some of the capacity. So a combination

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Speaker 8: of all these things, and I think over the weekend,

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Speaker 8: you know, Iran coming out and saying that they don't

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Speaker 8: want to cease fire, you know, actually spook the market

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Speaker 8: to say, well they they can go on for quite

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Speaker 8: a while. With us, well, they've been preparing for a

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Speaker 8: long time. And if you look at over in the US,

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Speaker 8: there's so much confusion. Nobody knows exactly what the end

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Speaker 8: goal is. You know, the is no or for MPIA.

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Speaker 8: So oil prices over the weekend went up thirteen percent,

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Speaker 8: and then we got up this morning in Hong Kong

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Speaker 8: they spiked a further twenty five percent. Luckily fortunately it's

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Speaker 8: come to back down now, but still crude oil trading

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Speaker 8: at one hundred and two dollars a barrow.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the issue of uncertainty your the point you make,

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Speaker 3: and I think it must be like it's exactly the point.

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Speaker 3: No one knows when this ends because the US, that

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration don't seem to have a very clear

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Speaker 3: outcome in mind. If we did, then maybe traders could

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Speaker 3: make could make better informed decisions.

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Speaker 8: Yes, I think if you know, if they said, look,

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Speaker 8: we after the nuclear facilities, and as soon as we

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Speaker 8: get those facilities, you know we're done. But they said

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Speaker 8: that a few months ago, and they bombed these facilities.

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Speaker 8: So we're not sure what the in goal is. It

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Speaker 8: was a regime change that didn't work. Now it's finding

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Speaker 8: uranium freeing people.

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Speaker 7: You see.

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Speaker 8: The thing is we don't learn what the in goal is,

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Speaker 8: so we're not sure how it ends. And I think

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Speaker 8: the market is booked about that. So you know, oil

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Speaker 8: prices are clear signal for me. Gold was a bit disappointing,

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Speaker 8: you know, down one percent, but you know gold almost

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Speaker 8: doubles from last years three thousand to five thousand and

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Speaker 8: one hundred an ounce. But you know, the market is

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Speaker 8: pooked and we see seeing it manifest in brincrude oil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I was surprised that gold as we

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Speaker 3: is not higher than it already is. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: do wonder if that's just a function of where gold

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Speaker 3: was before this conflict and there's just no sort of space.

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Speaker 3: The other thing, of course, is the dollar is a

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Speaker 3: lot stronger, and I do wonder if people are maybe

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Speaker 3: going back there a little bit. It's certainly stronger to

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Speaker 3: the rand.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so no, it's it's strengthened versus a number of currencies. Right,

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Speaker 8: But if I think about gold Goal down one percent.

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Speaker 8: Cold shares are underperforming, but I actually likened it to Korea.

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Speaker 8: Coudrea was one of the best performing markets last year.

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Speaker 8: It actually out of the gates this year. Year today

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Speaker 8: was up another fifty percent, and it's the market being

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Speaker 8: hit the hardest. So I would say, you know, people

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Speaker 8: starting to take profit where with the where they made

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Speaker 8: significant gains, and probably Goal falls into that category. But still,

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Speaker 8: I mean in this market, Goal does fall under that safe,

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Speaker 8: i even category. And with print at one hundred and

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Speaker 8: two dollars, I would liken to say that Goal probably

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Speaker 8: arises in the next six month if we don't see,

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Speaker 8: you know, some really drastic changes in this war. But

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Speaker 8: having said that, Stephen, I don't I think we can

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Speaker 8: go on for even three months if this if this

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Speaker 8: war is not over in the next month or so,

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Speaker 8: you know, oil could spike above one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 8: dollars a battle, and you know, at those levels, you know,

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Speaker 8: I mean in South Africa, diesel goes up ten rand

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Speaker 8: maybe twelve rand a liter, petrol goes up six rand

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Speaker 8: a liter, knocking effects on inflation.

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Speaker 2: And it just spirals.

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Speaker 8: And also I mean that's the one angle. The other

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Speaker 8: angle is is there going to be supply for the

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Speaker 8: rest of the world. I mean, if the ply comes

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Speaker 8: to end, we have a mini COVID situation without lockdowns,

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Speaker 8: because then now does the food get to the stores?

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Speaker 8: Never mind how you get in your vehicle and go

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Speaker 8: to the store. So there are many raple effects. So

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Speaker 8: I think at some point sanity should be viil. I mean,

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Speaker 8: today the G seven try to install some confidence in

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Speaker 8: the market, releasing some strategic reserves three hundred to four

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Speaker 8: hundred million battles of oil, which is the D Day's cover.

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Speaker 8: So you know that cover is there for the next

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Speaker 8: to dy days. So let's see what happens in the

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Speaker 8: next few weeks.

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Speaker 3: Sure, And I mean in the end, maybe high old

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Speaker 3: prices in the US do something domestically there, but that's

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Speaker 3: that's also a big gift. When does the start to

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Speaker 3: have a big impact on our inflation? And I mean

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Speaker 3: I suppose, and it's as simple as saying, well, the

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Speaker 3: day fuel prices go up dramatically, that's what the first

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Speaker 3: Wednesday of April three weeks time, Suddenly we'll really start

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Speaker 3: to feel it and the knock on effects will happen

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Speaker 3: very quickly. If they're not already priced in a little

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Speaker 3: bit by some people.

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Speaker 2: No, it will be. It definitely will be.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 8: I mean if you look at the lower end of

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Speaker 8: the market, as soon as those fuel prices go up

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Speaker 8: at the gate, those taxi prices go up immediately, so

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Speaker 8: that inflation is felt immediately. Also, logistics companies, transport costs

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Speaker 8: all go up immediately, and they pass it on to

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Speaker 8: the companies that they do the logistics, which is the

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Speaker 8: likes of Forwards, all of these companies, and they in

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Speaker 8: turn put up the prices. So you maybe don't see

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Speaker 8: it in the first month, but it is there and

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Speaker 8: it's prevalent, and in the second and third months you're

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Speaker 8: actually feeling it and it's out there. It's that's essaying

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Speaker 8: all the numbers as well.

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Speaker 3: And that's a double whammy for us because the round

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Speaker 3: is weaker to the dollar and the oil price is

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Speaker 3: going up in dollars.

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Speaker 7: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 8: So you know, if you just go back a month,

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Speaker 8: oil prices was at sixty three dollars a ballot ran

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Speaker 8: we were talking about the rant touching maybe thirteen. You know,

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Speaker 8: now the rands at sixteen fifty seven, it's almost it's

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Speaker 8: seventeen to the dollar, we had stable oil prices. Emerging

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Speaker 8: markets in dollar terms were up like fourteen percent in

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Speaker 8: the first two months. You know, they've given back ten

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Speaker 8: percent just in the first two weeks of March, so

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Speaker 8: you can see just how big this impact has been.

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Speaker 8: And it's and it's felt across the globe. So you know,

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Speaker 8: it's we're not in isolation. If you think about Europe.

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Speaker 8: Europe is even in a worse situation because they require

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Speaker 8: a gas and and particularly that you know they're taking

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Speaker 8: less gas from Russia. Kata is one of the main

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Speaker 8: supplies because twenty five percent of gas comes from Gata

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Speaker 8: and they've just actually shut the gas capacity down. So

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Speaker 8: it's it's not just South Africa. I think we're in

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Speaker 8: a slightly bitter position, but you know it's across it's

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Speaker 8: across the globe, so sanity has to prevail at some point.

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Speaker 3: Sure for rosebus, I thank you Global Emerging Markets. At

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Speaker 3: some lum investments, the money show the market serumbarsas investment

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Speaker 3: under that old mutual investment groups. Here, good evening, you

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Speaker 3: would have heard that conversation about oil really is spooking

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Speaker 3: markets all over the place today.

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Speaker 5: It is even sure will markets have certainly spot a

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Speaker 5: spice of the centers in the Middle East. I think,

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Speaker 5: as the previous guests alluded to earlier, brents jump more

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Speaker 5: than twenty percent a day, I think it was heading

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Speaker 5: to around one hundred and twenty dollars per barrel. I

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Speaker 5: think that since come down quite a bit to just

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Speaker 5: above one hundred. But I think the key thing to

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Speaker 5: note there, it's the highest level that we've seen since

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Speaker 5: the twenty twenty two following the Russia Ukraine conflict. And

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Speaker 5: I think what makes this episode more concerning than previous

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Speaker 5: shocks is the scale and the quantum of supply disruptions.

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Speaker 5: So it's roughly around fifteen million barrels per day of production,

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Speaker 5: so roughly about twenty to twenty five percent of Gerbal

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Speaker 5: production which is now at road score is already shut in.

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Speaker 5: And if you compare this to twenty twenty two, it

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Speaker 5: was roughly around three million barrels per day which was

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Speaker 5: displaced during the Russia concept. So it's the scale is

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Speaker 5: quite extraordinary, and I think, yeah, the market is increasing,

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Speaker 5: you pricing in the possibility of the longer conflict or

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Speaker 5: prolonged supply disruption, and even if production resumes, I think

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Speaker 5: it will take some time for production to return to

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Speaker 5: full capacity, and I think the essay conversation is also

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Speaker 5: quite important. So bringing it back to the consumer, oil

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Speaker 5: prices feed into everything fuel prices and we've already seen

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Speaker 5: the basic fuel price rising, so I think the current

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Speaker 5: under recovery sets it around four rang to lead it

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Speaker 5: for petrol and seven round for diesel, and so with

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Speaker 5: oil absence Friday, you could expect an additional one round

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Speaker 5: fifty all of being equal increase in the base of

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Speaker 5: fuel price, and those bilses into every aspect of the

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Speaker 5: economy as a neded to earlier transport clasts, food prices,

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Speaker 5: the consumer basket. So I think for an already stretch

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Speaker 5: so African consumer, this is quite negative and obviously it

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Speaker 5: reduces the likelihood of new term interstrate cuts.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, just to follow on on what for

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Speaker 3: Rose was saying, how slightly surprised gold prices didn't go

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Speaker 3: higher and harmony were low today? How many goals?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, maybe if I can touch in harmony yeah,

402
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 5: before I move on to goal. So harmony was done

403
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Speaker 5: about four percent, they'd guided to strong earnings growth, and

404
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Speaker 5: I think the key driver there was goal price, right,

405
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Speaker 5: so over the period, the average goal price rose about

406
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Speaker 5: thirty six percent in rantoms and forty percent of dollar tence,

407
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Speaker 5: so that's quite significant. But I think overall earnings came

408
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Speaker 5: in below market expectations, and I think the key difference

409
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Speaker 5: they really had to do with some of the acquisition

410
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Speaker 5: costs of the copper asset that they had acquired, and

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Speaker 5: so that that difference resulted in the weaker share price.

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Speaker 5: And I think strategically Harmony is a little bit different

413
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Speaker 5: because they have taken a different path relative to the peers.

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Speaker 5: So other precious mental minders are increasingly returning more cash

415
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Speaker 5: to shareholders, whereas Harmony is investing into diversifications through copper

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Speaker 5: through this recent acquisition, and I think investors have said

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Speaker 5: that it's a ball strategy. And longer term, I mean,

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Speaker 5: I think it makes sense you're benefiting from strong long

419
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Speaker 5: term copper demand that's tied to electricication the energy transition.

420
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Speaker 5: But in the short term it definitely does make it

421
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Speaker 5: more exposed to goal prices if they do pull back

422
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Speaker 5: or if the copper investment pieces doesn't play out.

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Speaker 3: An ABI today, I was very glad to see that

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Speaker 3: their innovation in biscuits is helping them out.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was a great update. In fact,

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Speaker 5: I think you know, the results are well guided. Snack

427
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Speaker 5: Works and I and J were the best performing segment.

428
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Speaker 5: So snack Works the makers of Baker's biscuits. They're still

429
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Speaker 5: strong demand in biscuits over the festest season, and then

430
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Speaker 5: of course Iron J benefited from the strong catch rates.

431
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Speaker 5: But I think you know, a testament to the quality

432
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Speaker 5: of the management team. You know, they've stepped in and

433
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Speaker 5: the restructuring initiatives that they've undertaken in the prior definitely

434
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Speaker 5: resulted in the segment seeing strong operating profit growth and

435
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Speaker 5: margin expansion. And this is filtered down to the free

436
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Speaker 5: cashual level, which is quite positive for investors to see.

437
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 3: Siera and Barta, thanks so much. Investment analyst at the

438
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 3: Old Mutual Investment Group.

439
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: What Stephen on seven two seven two one seven o two.

440
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 3: Well, good to hear from you this evening. I was

441
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 3: asking you your favorite biscuit. Taler Kelet tells me she

442
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 3: has a favorite. We'll hear that in just a moment.

443
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 3: You may remember a very brief interview you would have

444
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 3: heard on Friday evening with the chair at African Bank

445
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 3: at tubled Lattie and he was telling us that Kennedy Bongani,

446
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 3: the CEO at African Bank, had been sort of let go.

447
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 3: And I sort of asked the question, you know, has

448
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 3: he been fired, and didn't quite get a straight answer. Well,

449
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 3: Business Day having a very interesting report today. They made

450
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 3: it clear that they hadn't been able to speak to Bongani,

451
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 3: but it would appear that there were problems in the

452
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 3: regulating regulatory reporting to the prudential authority. This is under

453
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 3: the new system Basil three plus and as a result,

454
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 3: the prudential authority were upset. They were not happy with

455
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: how things had gone, and this was sort of one

456
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 3: of the reasons why Bungani was being let go. Interesting though,

457
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 3: because you would think it wouldn't just be the CEO,

458
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: it would be other people. I mean, it's in the

459
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: paperwork department, your people whose job is just to get

460
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 3: that right. The CEO would sign off on it, but

461
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 3: what about the people who sort of got it wrong.

462
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 3: I do wonder if we've heard the end of that story.

463
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 3: I suspect around African Bank we might start to hear

464
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,239
Speaker 3: a little bit more. Also, just interesting to see what

465
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: happens next. We were told by doubled Latti and I

466
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: mean I have no reason not to accept what he

467
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: says that this is about that change in long term strategy.

468
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 3: Plenty more changes to come at African Bank two.

469
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: Email him on Stephen at seven two dot co dot zed.

470
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: Look forward to your favorite biscuit tips as well on

471
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: voice notes tonight, the insurance company Sometime reporting that having

472
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: fewer bad weather incidents helped them increase their headline earnings

473
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: by eight percent group Insuran and revenue up by eight percent.

474
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 3: They're also expecting to start to soon see the benefit

475
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 3: of their new type with the Lloyd's Insurance Syndicate in

476
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 3: London because earlier is the chief financial officer at suntime

477
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 3: vic Us, Good evening, thanks for your time. Your gross

478
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: written premiums they were up seven point two percent. Have

479
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: you been able to add many more customers over the period?

480
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 3: Did that help that growth?

481
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 9: Good evening and also good evening to your listeners. So

482
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 9: we have been able to add to the number of customers.

483
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 9: Our focus on the direct channels have been particularly successful.

484
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 9: So within my way to one of our direct businesses

485
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 9: where I have seen growth of more than ten thousand

486
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 9: in their policy count and Similarly, also within the direct

487
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 9: business and height agency business that we run under the

488
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 9: SUNTM brand, we've also seen increase in policy account during

489
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 9: the past year.

490
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: I mean there's huge competition in the sector. I mean

491
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: people phone me all the time offering it to me.

492
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 3: I mean, are the particular are the particular strategies that

493
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: seem to be working for you?

494
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 9: Yes, I think it's Within my Way in particular. We've

495
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 9: we've gone through branding during the course of the of

496
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 9: the year with kind of the move to Value campaign

497
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 9: because in the direct channels it is actually all about

498
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 9: value to the customer. And then we've also implemented a

499
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 9: number of news strategies, for example the tight Agency channel

500
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 9: with Within my Way that's focused on business insurance in particular.

501
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 9: That's also been very successful in increasing market share. And

502
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 9: then of course a lot of it's also about the

503
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 9: trust in the brand and sometimes a modern under year

504
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 9: old business with a strong trust from clients that we

505
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 9: want buy their claims, and that also plays quite a

506
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 9: strong role when clients decide where they're going to place

507
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 9: the insurance business.

508
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 3: Your weather related losses were six hundred million rand less

509
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 3: compared to twenty twenty four I mean that's a big difference.

510
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: How important is bad weather events be coming for your business?

511
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: Do you have to make a much bigger reinsurance provision

512
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 3: for it than you did, say ten or twenty years ago.

513
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 9: Where there's definitely become more volatile. So the last couple

514
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 9: of years we've we've seen the increase in the number

515
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 9: of weather the related events and also there are severity

516
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 9: of the amount of claims we get from a particular event.

517
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 9: As you mentioned, last year was a benign period for

518
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 9: us with lower losses, but we have seen already some

519
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 9: normalization in the first two months of this year where

520
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 9: we've experienced some flooding in the northern parts of the country,

521
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 9: but also wildfire's losses within the western Gape. So for us,

522
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 9: it's all about making sure that we become much more

523
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 9: scientific in risk selection, that we price appropriately. But all

524
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 9: of the actions that we have implemented last number of

525
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 9: years has actually i had a positive impact on our

526
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 9: reinsurance renewals. So we have been able to maintain our

527
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 9: current net retention at a billion round level without seeing

528
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 9: a significant increase in the reinsurance premiums.

529
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 3: One of your acquisitions, it was just before this period started,

530
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 3: so it would have been late twenty twenty four. Was

531
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: NMS insurance and he brought it from Multi Choice and

532
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 3: it has funeral insurance. But I suppose it's primary business

533
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: at the time was ensuring things like DStv decoders. I mean,

534
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 3: is that business going to grow? I think as people

535
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 3: moved to streaming, there's just no decoder to insure.

536
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 9: I think the the original transaction was concluded by our

537
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 9: olding company, Sanlan, and we bought a shorter insurance component

538
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 9: from them at the beginning of May this year, so

539
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 9: we've started including the results from May. So they did

540
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 9: contribute to our top line growth. So for us, the

541
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 9: big opportunity with the is transaction is not only the

542
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 9: device insurance. Even if clients change from the coders to

543
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 9: other streaming devices, we can also ensure those specific devices,

544
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 9: but actually to broaden the products that we sell into

545
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 9: that market and also to introduce some more traditional home

546
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 9: insurance content insurance and also about the insurance into that

547
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 9: client guys place, And for us, that's a big growth

548
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 9: opportunity for us.

549
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's around six hundred thousand customers. You've

550
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: ensured their phones with you. You have a type with MTN.

551
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 3: When you look at phone insurances, devices get more expensive.

552
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: I mean for a long time you could get a

553
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: device and pay it back through a two year contract.

554
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: Now it's three years. Our phones have gone from sort

555
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: of fifteen thousand rand, you know, top of the range

556
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: phones three years a GOO to kind of thirty thousand

557
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 3: rand for some of them. Now are people more likely

558
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: to take out insurance under those circumstances? The devices are

559
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: so much more expensive. If you buy one, you're in

560
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: the shop or you're getting it online, you want to

561
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 3: get the insurance at exactly the same time because you

562
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 3: don't want anything to go wrong.

563
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 9: That's exactly what we experience, especially as the device has

564
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 9: become one more expensive. The last two clients is also

565
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 9: more expensive, so we have seen clients really taking up

566
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 9: the device insurance through through the empty partnership, and for us,

567
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 9: it's also about to also continue to educate the market

568
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 9: and how important device insurance is to them.

569
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 3: And I mean cell phones are the one thing that

570
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 3: people would always you know, the chances of losing one

571
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: or having one stolen seem to be much higher than

572
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: almost anything else. The insurance numbers on that must be

573
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: quite interesting.

574
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 9: Yes, we do find is because the device is so

575
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 9: important for clients, they actually do look after it very carefully.

576
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 9: So if you look at the premiums that we charge

577
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 9: that start below under a rand a month kind of

578
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 9: it also gives you an indication of that the claims

579
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 9: experience is also not as high as what you may

580
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 9: may think.

581
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: The fact that they're all waterproof now probably helps to

582
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: your syndicate with Lloyd's it started operating now this is

583
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: the Lloyd's of London. I mean, look, because interesting time

584
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: to start offering maritime insurance. How important could that be

585
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: for your overall business? There seems to be quite a

586
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: lot of room for growth. Well, that's what you're expecting.

587
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 3: It is.

588
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 9: The Lloyd's market offers a huge graph opportunity for us,

589
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 9: and we've violated before that this Lloyds initiative can be

590
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 9: transformative for sometime in the years to come, just given

591
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 9: the size of that market. But it's also important that

592
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 9: maritime insurance is about ten percent of the total Lloyd's

593
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 9: market and for us, the lines of business that we

594
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 9: are going after within the Lloyds, it's even a much

595
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 9: much smaller percentage of that. So what's going on in

596
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 9: them from a marine insurance perspective at the moment will

597
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 9: not really have an impact on our ambitions within Lloyd's.

598
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 3: No sure, but I mean going forward, as I said,

599
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: there are all sorts of prospects for you. You're getting

600
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: into into some very interesting markets.

601
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 9: Yes, so Lloyd gives that access to the more than

602
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 9: two hundred territories across the globe. So from a geographic perspective,

603
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 9: we can really diversify sometimes going forward, and of course

604
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 9: Lloyds is not the only initiative. We also opened an

605
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 9: office within India's Gift City, which also gives us much

606
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 9: better access to specialist classes and reinsurance business in India,

607
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 9: which has got a market that's three times the size

608
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 9: of South Africa.

609
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 6: So we're really driving.

610
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 9: The international growth across more than one one avenue.

611
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 3: Because we'll have here. Thank you so much, the chief

612
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: financial officer at SUNTAM.

613
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 10: The money show, Stupid Cruetz is brought to you by

614
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 10: Absolve Corporate and Investment backing proud sponsors of GTR Africa

615
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 10: twenty twenty six, enabling.

616
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: Trade flows for growth APS. Is the register ever.

617
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: Be eight minutes now to seven? The time? Well, the

618
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: answer to a parliamentary question being made public today saying

619
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: it would cost the Labor Ministry about ten billion Rand

620
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: to employ another ten thousand labor inspectors over the medium

621
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 3: term budget period. Tony, and this all follows, by the way,

622
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: promised by President Sarama Pausa that the government would employ

623
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: another ten thousand labor inspectors. Tony Healy is a labor

624
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 3: consultant at Icon Labor Consultants. Tony good evening. I mean,

625
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: at first sort of glance, I would have to say

626
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: the Apartment probably doesn't have enough labor inspectors when you

627
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: consider how often we find people have been employed illegally,

628
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 3: people have been human trafficked into the country, factories have

629
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,479
Speaker 3: been operating illegally. From what I can see, we don't

630
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: really know enough about what's actually going on.

631
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 6: Ye our leading steering, Yes, I think that that is true.

632
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 6: And what we're seeing now is a very very significant

633
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 6: step whereby the number of inspectors is being increased by

634
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 6: more than fivefold, as is the budget, and that will

635
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 6: take the number of annual workplace inspections, for example, from

636
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 6: around three hundred thousand to approximately one point six million.

637
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 6: So there very definitely is far greater focus on enforcement

638
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 6: and compliance when it comes to labor legislation.

639
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 3: What powers does a labor inspector have? Can they just

640
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: arrive at a workplace? Can they knock on my studio

641
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 3: door and say, we want to see your working conditions,

642
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: we want to see your salary, we want to see

643
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 3: the citizenship of your employees.

644
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, pretty much. Do you know they can? They can arrive.

645
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 6: They can't arrive at a private residence, of course and

646
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 6: do that, but they can arrive at any any workplace.

647
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 6: It's a warrant so called warrantless entry. They don't need

648
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 6: a warrant. They don't need to give you notice. You

649
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 6: need to let them in. You need to if they

650
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 6: ask for documentation or evidence or proof of for example,

651
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 6: RF registration quite a compliance, payment of minimal wage, payment

652
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 6: of overtime rates, et cetera. You really do need to comply.

653
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 6: And those are the fairly wide reaching powers that inspectors have.

654
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: Do they at the moment, do it at random? Or

655
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 3: do they respond to complaints? And how would imagine some

656
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: of it might be responding to complaints. Workers in a

657
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: factory will feel they're being badly treated. A few of

658
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: them might get together and sort of however they do it.

659
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: I presume there's a phone line or something, try and

660
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: get to get into contact to create enough faster someone

661
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: will come and have a look.

662
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 6: It's both Steve, So you would appreciate if they receive complaints,

663
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 6: especially from one particular employer, then they will definitely focus

664
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 6: on that employer. But on other occasions it will be random.

665
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 6: You know, they're divided across the country. They have their

666
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 6: geographic areas, and they'll focus in as and when they

667
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 6: can within their own geographic areas. So it'll typically be

668
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 6: in response to complaints and just working through a particular

669
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 6: metro or a particular area, you know, and they arrive

670
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 6: with their kipboard and they say where's this? Where's they

671
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 6: show me? They'll show me that, and then the employer

672
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 6: needs to comply.

673
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: Do they have the power to close the workplace unilaterally

674
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 3: just them on their own.

675
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 6: Well, they certainly have the power to do that if

676
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 6: the workplace is particularly unsafe. Look, it's not normal. I

677
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 6: wouldn't want to, you know, catastrophize what happens when these

678
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 6: labor spectives arrive because even in the events, even that

679
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 6: they find that there's non compliance in a particular area.

680
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 6: More often than not, they soon issue a compliance order

681
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 6: and say, look, please fix that with them a certain

682
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 6: amount of time. They can also ask the employer to

683
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 6: give a written confirmation that they'll fix something by a

684
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 6: particular zero point ten time. It's rare that they would

685
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 6: close a business, and only in really exceptional circumstances. But

686
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 6: they do have the power to comply. You know, as

687
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 6: I say, to issue these compliance orders to fix X,

688
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 6: y Z.

689
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: And can an employer or can I can the person

690
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 3: in charge of a workplace insist on having their lawyers

691
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: sort of represent them to the inspector or do they

692
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 3: have to account themselves?

693
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 6: Well, you know what happens in practice, Steven, is they

694
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 6: just knock on your door. You don't know that they're

695
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 6: going to arrive. They don't phone and say, you know,

696
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 6: you're free next week Tuesday. So they arrive, and if

697
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 6: there's any internal resources that can you know, maybe a

698
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 6: legal department or a labor relation department, they can assist,

699
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 6: but they certainly can't say hang on, hold on, you know,

700
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 6: my attorney can only make it next week Thursday or

701
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 6: four o'clock this afternoon. They really do have the right

702
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 6: to arrive and say we want this, and we wanted

703
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 6: now Tony.

704
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: This may be an impossible question, but let me put

705
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 3: it to you. To do all of this ten thousand people,

706
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 3: they would need to be trained, and specifically, when you

707
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 3: consider the powers that you're giving them, which is the

708
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 3: power to go into a commercial property with I think

709
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: the phrase you used was warrantless entry. That can't happen,

710
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 3: you know, in two weeks. This is not a month

711
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 3: long course. I presume it will take longer than that.

712
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: So to get ten thousand people through any kind of

713
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: system to make this manageable, and I can just see

714
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 3: some of the confrontations that may ensue with you know,

715
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 3: a brand new person with no experience and no training

716
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: suddenly arriving and asking questions. This could all take quite

717
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: a while before we get to ten thousand.

718
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 6: I think that's right, Steve. You know, in terms of

719
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 6: this announcement, they've got a March thirteen deadline for an

720
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 6: implementation plan, and time will tell whether they meet meet

721
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 6: that deadline. But yes, it's going to take some time

722
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 6: for these inspectors to be trained up in the very

723
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 6: as pieces of legislation. I think one thing's for sure.

724
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 6: It certainly means that there are particular focus areas which

725
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 6: are maybe worth mentioning as perhaps we finish the whole

726
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 6: question of the employment of foreign nationals is a huge focus,

727
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 6: payment of minimum wages is a huge focus, and health

728
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 6: and safety issues of the huge focus. So they are

729
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 6: going to receive the main areas of focus, and maybe

730
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 6: they'll accelerate the training in those areas so they can

731
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 6: get the inspectors into follow up.

732
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: Well.

733
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 3: I was also going to say that the other consequence

734
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 3: of this is that labor laws will will have more

735
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 3: bite because they're much more likely now to be enforced.

736
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 3: I mean not right now, but maybe in two or

737
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 3: three years time.

738
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think that's the intention. You know, the

739
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 6: intention is you know what you know, as we've seen

740
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 6: in so many areas of law, what's the point of

741
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 6: having the legislation if there's no if there's no compliance.

742
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 6: So there's absolutely no doubt this is a significant step

743
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 6: and it's most certainly going to increase some monitoring and

744
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 6: a enforcement of compliance in the field of labor law

745
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 6: across the country, no doubt about it.

746
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 3: Tony Healy, thanks so much, really appreciate that's so interesting

747
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 3: to sort of consider some of the questions that come up.

748
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 3: Tony's a labor consultant at Icon Labor Consultants. Coming up,

749
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 3: we'll talk about foreign countries that are looking for South

750
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: Africans with particular skills and what it is that those

751
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 3: countries are sort of looking for, why it is that

752
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: they're coming here. You'll speak to Peper mare looking forward

753
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: to that. He's the group Chief creative Officer at Joe Public.

754
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 3: He's got a book out and in How I Make

755
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: My Money. Don't forget Chad Thomas at IRS Forensic Investigators,

756
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 3: looking forward to that conversation anything you've ever wanted to

757
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: know about being a forensic investigating. You with The Money

758
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: Show at seven o'clock.

759
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Cridis on seven

760
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: oh two. Let's walk little.

761
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Crutis is brought to you

762
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 3: by ABS of Corporate and Investment Banking, proud sponsors of

763
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: GTR Africa twenty twenty six Enabling Trade for It Flows

764
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 3: for Growth ABSE. It's a registered FSP. Good evening, I'm

765
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 3: Stephen Critis. Six minutes after seven the time we'll speak

766
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 3: to Pepper Maree. He's the co founder at Joe Public.

767
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: His book is called One Word, The Power of Simplicity

768
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 3: in a Complex business World. It's actually a very interesting

769
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: idea and it really does sort of reconnect you with

770
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: what it is that you're trying to do in business.

771
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: We'll speak to Paul Byrne. He's the head of excuse me,

772
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: a head of insights at Peanut. It does still seem

773
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: that South Africans are very popular with employers abroad. I

774
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: keep bumping into sort of people who've come back from abroad,

775
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: and I think maybe people are sort of looking around

776
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: the world and thinking, well, actually this is not a

777
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: terrible place to be. Lock Field prices haven't gone up

778
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: yet but when they do, but it does seem that

779
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 3: they still demand for South African skills and experience. And

780
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 3: then of course also Chad Thomas, the director in Forensic

781
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 3: Investigated IRS forensic investigations, I've often wondered, when you watch

782
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: investigators speak, when you listen to them, where do you

783
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 3: even start. I mean, there was a time when probably

784
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: most investigators it started in the police. Others will have

785
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: started in the sort of accountancy route now I think.

786
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: And then also some sort of dispute, some problems, some

787
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 3: difficulties they can be. They can look simple at first

788
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: when you go into them and they get more and

789
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 3: more complex. I mean, how do you even deal with that?

790
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 3: So I'm looking forward to speaking to Chad Thomas about that.

791
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 3: There's really quite a lot there. Good to hear from

792
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: you as well on O double one double A three

793
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 3: oh seven two two one four four six oh five

794
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 3: six seven and your voice notes tonight on O seven

795
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: two seven oh two one seven oh two. Very disappointed.

796
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: No one's got a good idea yet for the best

797
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: kind of biscuit. AVII saying today innovation in their biscuit

798
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 3: space help them to increase their headline earnings. Very important

799
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,479
Speaker 3: to get your biscuits right if you're in that game.

800
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: The Money Show with.

801
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: Stephen Kruger's Desive on ninety two point seven and one

802
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 3: six FM streaming on the Prime Media.

803
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: Plus NAP and TSTV channel eight five six.

804
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 2: Well.

805
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 3: More evidence emerging now that employers in several countries seem

806
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 3: to be targeting South African professionals, essentially trying to get

807
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 3: South Africans to go and work in those countries. Paul

808
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 3: Byrne is the head of insights at Peanut Paul, Good Evening.

809
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 3: I mean there's been a slight, sort of consistent increase

810
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: over the years. What are you seeing at the moment.

811
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: Certainly it seems that people are spending time and money

812
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: targeting South Africans.

813
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 11: They are indeed, in Good Evening, Stephen, We've been looking

814
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 11: at the data that we've got across our pen at

815
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 11: platforms and over the last five years, we thought it'd

816
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 11: be really interesting to see just how much of an

817
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 11: increase there has been in that demand for our talent.

818
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 11: And it's gone from about one point six percent of

819
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 11: our total sort of job base that we had been

820
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 11: advertising across South Africa and twenty twenty one to two

821
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 11: point two percent in twenty twenty five. Might not sound

822
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 11: like a massive increase, but if you look at the

823
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 11: real volume, that translates about thirty eight percent increase in

824
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 11: the volume of job ads that have been advertised to

825
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 11: target our South African talent.

826
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 3: Are they particular things that people are looking for that

827
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 3: maybe we have, I mean, are the particular skills sortags?

828
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: It will change from country to country, but certainly it

829
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 3: does seem quite interesting that people are spending time advertising

830
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 3: for those skills.

831
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 6: Here very much.

832
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 11: I think what we do know is that our labor

833
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 11: forces cost effective. I think our labor costs are generally

834
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 11: lower than in most of the developed markets.

835
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 6: We know that we've got a skilled workforce.

836
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 11: We produce really strong talent and fields like engineering, IT

837
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 11: and finance, and that's deeply sought out sought after overseas

838
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 11: at the moment. And then I think is also the

839
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 11: more to intentional benefit. We've got deep experience in South

840
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 11: Africa that have been used to working across quite diverse

841
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 11: industries and multilingual, cross cultural environments, and there's no doubt

842
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 11: that the big corporations looking for our type of talency

843
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 11: that as a major benefit to recruiting our staff.

844
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: I've always thought that at some point you're going to

845
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: find every South African. Every senior person at the United

846
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: Nations is South African. Just because of that. Actually, Australia

847
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: seems particularly keen on South Africa's I mean, are they

848
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: particular skills or experience they're looking for, or do they

849
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: just need yet more South Africans who are quite good

850
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: at cricket.

851
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 6: Well, it's for the.

852
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 11: Last four years they've topped the list of the country

853
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 11: that has been advertising the highest volume of jobs.

854
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 6: Here in South Africa.

855
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 11: So it's certainly significant in terms of what they are doing,

856
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 11: albeit that twenty twenty five, interestingly that volume had dropped

857
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 11: by about seventeen percent. But specifically it's quite a range

858
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 11: of different experience that they're looking for, and it comes

859
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 11: across specifically in construction. They're looking for electricians, plumbers and

860
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 11: generally other skilled engineering type type skills.

861
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 3: And Saudi Arabia, I mean, that's a country going through

862
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: huge changes, there's a big effort to sort of diversify

863
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: its economy. What skills do they need? I mean, are

864
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 3: they looking for professional people? Are they looking maybe for artisans?

865
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 3: They of course import so much of their work force.

866
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 7: They certainly do.

867
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 11: And their main interest in the South African skill set

868
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 11: is our medical and health staff and engineering. And I

869
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 11: think there's largely driven by the fact that they've got

870
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 11: this message that they call it these Division twenty thirty

871
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 11: where they want to really expand their healthcare capability. And

872
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 11: from the research and the reading that we've done, it's

873
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 11: a one hundred and seventy five thousand extra healthcare workers

874
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 11: they're looking looking to employ it by twenty thirty, of

875
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 11: which sixty four thousand will be nurses, so they really

876
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 11: are targeting us hard in terms of bringing that nursing

877
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 11: skill in particular across to Saudi and then also engineering skills,

878
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 11: you know, to build the infra structure to support that

879
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 11: scale of development. There's a lot of our engineering skill

880
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 11: that's been targeted here in South Africa, to the point

881
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 11: that even though they were actually off our list of

882
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 11: the top five countries that were targeting South African talent

883
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 11: last year, they are second in line right now and

884
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 11: the growth in that volume is an astounding one hundred

885
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 11: and seventy four percent increase, so they really are quite

886
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 11: aggressively coming in to find our talent.

887
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 3: I'm always a bit surprised when I see the Netherlands

888
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: are so keen on South Africa's I mean, is there

889
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 3: a sort of skills shortage there or something, because it

890
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 3: does seem that they are much more invested. And look,

891
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,439
Speaker 3: I know someone might say, well Dutch, but I don't

892
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,959
Speaker 3: think people are going there to actually work in Dutch.

893
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: I think some of them seem to be going there

894
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 3: to work in English. I mean, for a relatively small

895
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 3: country with a relatively small population, the Netherlands seems to

896
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 3: kind of keep coming back. Maybe they just can't get enough.

897
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 6: Of us, and it certainly seems that way.

898
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, they are sixty one percent up two of the

899
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 11: volumes of jobs that they're advertising here. And you make

900
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 11: a really good point about English as the spoken languages

901
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 11: within the workforce, and the Netherlands are known to be

902
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 11: one of the highest English proficiency sort of countries that

903
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 11: I can call it with within Europe. So syle Africans

904
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 11: integrate really well into that workforce. But specifically what they're

905
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 11: looking for is a completely different skill set. It tends

906
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 11: to really be maintenance and repair and engineering type roles

907
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 11: that they targeting, and I think that's because what we

908
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 11: can see as they're investing heavily in infrastructure projects, industrial

909
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 11: automation and energy transition product projects. So it's your mull rights,

910
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 11: your maintenance and electrical technicians that really are being targeted here.

911
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Indeed, Paul Burn, it's really interesting

912
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: to see what people are looking at Paul Burn's ahead

913
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: of insights at PEANET. I always sort of say this

914
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: that people move, and it's no longer a world in

915
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 3: which you sort of emigrate, and that's that people seem

916
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 3: to move back and forth in all sorts of interesting ways,

917
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 3: and you see families doing it too, and people doing

918
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 3: different things at different stages in their careers. But just

919
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 3: interesting to see that there's still so much demand for

920
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 3: South Africa's On one level, I'm not at all surprised.

921
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: In fact, you would think you would think that actually

922
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: they would be that, but it's still quite interesting just

923
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 3: to see it in action. Poorburn that have insights A

924
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 3: peanut Tanks.

925
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: Is on the Money Shows six to eight pm.

926
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: You may remember last week I was asking a question

927
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: about the Public Investment Corporation and we'd seen that the

928
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: chief investment of Lycabello records, so we had left through

929
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 3: a sort of amicable agreement. You'd been on suspension for

930
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 3: a little while. And the point that I did make

931
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 3: was that there had been making some mistakes in their

932
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 3: particularly understood investment space. Well today, I think was from

933
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 3: twenty four of the story the latest story about Daybreak.

934
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 3: This is the poultry produce of the chicken farm that

935
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 3: was a disaster for a while. I had to go

936
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 3: into business. Hundreds of thousands of pics had to be

937
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 3: euthanized by the National by the NSPCA. The latest story

938
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 3: is that the chief financial officer, Aubrey Daly, is now

939
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 3: being suspended by the Business Rescue Practitioners. And one of

940
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 3: those details that tells you so much about what seems

941
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 3: to be going on and what's going on in an

942
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 3: organization is the News twenty four reported and I forgottenness

943
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 3: that at one point in one day he resigned and

944
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 3: then retracted his resignation. It kind of went back to work.

945
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 3: I mean, when things get to that point, I don't

946
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 3: know if you really can come back from resigning and

947
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 3: just sort of, you know, playing that sort of game.

948
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 3: But the Business Rescue Practitioners sort of suspending him. Now

949
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 3: they're going to take over his duties, and you kind

950
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: of just want to know, why would this happen on

951
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 3: the watch of the public investment corporation? Hugely well resourced,

952
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 3: should be able to employ whoever they need. We know

953
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: now they've gone to outside experts, sell of a panel

954
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: of outside experts to advise it on its unlisted portfolio.

955
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 3: That's eight months after the financement see Iguana said he

956
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 3: wanted something to change. It seems quite bizarre that nothing

957
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 3: happens for quite so long and in the end, and

958
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 3: let me just repeat my major concern, which is the

959
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 3: lack of transparency. We don't know why Cabello Recotz or resigned,

960
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 3: why he left, or why he left amicably. We don't

961
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 3: know the reason, and kind of feel that for someone

962
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 3: who was playing such a big role, that's such a

963
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 3: big organization, we rarely should know, and the fact that

964
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 3: it's so big and will once again deliver strong returns

965
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 3: based on its size should be no excuse. You can't

966
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 3: to say, well, we did well. Therefore, I think we

967
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 3: do need to know. Anyway, we'll see what we were

968
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 3: able to find out. If you know, maybe you know something,

969
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 3: please oh double one double a three oh seven two

970
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 3: two one four four six oh five six seven in

971
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 3: voice notes on those seven two seven oh two one

972
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 3: seven oh two.

973
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: Them my show business books.

974
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,240
Speaker 3: Well, the book we're looking at it's called One Word.

975
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 3: It's by Pepper Marias. He is the group chief executive

976
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 3: officer at Joe Public. Pepe, good evening, it's really good

977
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: to talk to you. It's been a very long time.

978
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

979
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 7: Thank you so much, Steven, it's been a long time.

980
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 7: You're right, but thank you.

981
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 3: It seemed to me that in a way, your book,

982
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 3: The Power of Simplicity in a Complex business World, is

983
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 3: actually about getting us up in the morning. Why it

984
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: is that we get up? And for you it's about

985
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 3: one word. I suppose it's about purpose. What were you

986
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 3: trying to do with this book?

987
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 7: I suppose what I'm interested in as a co founder

988
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 7: of our own business is business sustainability. And the average

989
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 7: lifespan of Western businesses has declined from about seven years

990
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 7: to seventeen years on average, So I'm looking for a

991
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 7: way to build businesses. Are they more sustainable.

992
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 3: It's interesting you look back at some business has been

993
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: around for a long time. I mean we were speaking

994
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 3: to we're speaking to the chief financial officer at sometime earlier,

995
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 3: and there's a business is going around for a long time.

996
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 3: The big banks have managed to do that. What do

997
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: old businesses get right?

998
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 7: Well, I suppose old businesses have scales, so they become

999
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 7: a big ships with momentum. So it's always questionable how

1000
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 7: long will they really sustain that? How long is a

1001
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 7: business built to last? In Japan, you've got business that's

1002
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 7: over one thousand years old. I'm more interested in the

1003
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 7: middle sector, so I would say business is with revenue

1004
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 7: between ten million and three hundred million, so that portion

1005
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 7: before they corporateized, that's the market. I'm interested in how

1006
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 7: you can actually build those businesses to last, especially in

1007
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 7: the country where we're looking for jobs.

1008
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 3: So what for you would be the reason? And I mean,

1009
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 3: I imagine purpose is part of it.

1010
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 7: I'm I'm betting everything I've got on this on this

1011
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 7: concept called purpose, which is something I discovered eighteen years ago,

1012
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 7: and it's because the majority of the world is still

1013
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 7: following Milton Friedman's way, which is the reason that business

1014
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 7: exists is to make capital. And I'm not negating the

1015
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 7: nobility and the importance of money, but it's the lifeblood

1016
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 7: of business. But we don't wake up every morning to

1017
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 7: make blood. And that's my belief which I'm putting forward

1018
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 7: as a hypothesis, but it actually really is a belief

1019
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 7: and approach to business which I think is a new

1020
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,720
Speaker 7: way compared to the old way of business.

1021
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: I can sometimes go into a company. I mean I

1022
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: went into a retail chain just before Christmas, the cell stationery.

1023
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 3: I was looking for something particular. It was quite a

1024
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 3: complicated thing to find. The shopping system greeted me as

1025
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 3: I walked in. When I explained when I showed her

1026
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 3: on my cell phone what it was, she knew immediately

1027
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 3: where it was, what it was, what the price was.

1028
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 3: I was in and out in about two minutes, and

1029
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: over the Christmas system a season paper. I mean, that's

1030
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 3: minor miracle. And as I walked out, I resolved myself,

1031
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 3: I'm going to go back to this shop every opportunity

1032
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 3: that I get. What does that company have that other

1033
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 3: companies don't have? How have they been able to inculcate

1034
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: that purpose across clearly all of their employees.

1035
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 7: So that's so interesting because I've almost got a complete

1036
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 7: opposite with a retailer that I opposite experience. I'll never

1037
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 7: go back there, but I would guess there's a stronger

1038
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 7: culture in that business because ultimately, to me, that's your

1039
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 7: true differentiator is the culture. Because businesses we are, businesses

1040
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 7: are people. That's businesses are collective of people offering the

1041
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 7: consumers or their clients offering a product or service, but

1042
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 7: ultimately it's people. So what is sitting at the heart

1043
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 7: of the business that actually make people love to be

1044
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 7: there during the working hours? And statistically, eighty four out

1045
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 7: of one hundred people Global Statistics STA and factual are

1046
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 7: not actually at work because they love being there. They're

1047
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 7: just there because they're in the capitalistic system and they

1048
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 7: can't wait to get to five, and they can't wait

1049
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 7: to get to Friday, and they resent Mondays. So what

1050
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 7: can we break into business that makes people actually bring

1051
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 7: their full potential to businesses? And to me, that's culture

1052
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 7: and a strong belief within a business that it stands

1053
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 7: for more than just the making of money. Money is

1054
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 7: a byproduct of something greater. The better that culture and

1055
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 7: maybe that business you experience that a stronger culture than

1056
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 7: other retailers.

1057
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,399
Speaker 3: How do you inculcate culture across an entire business? Lots

1058
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 3: of different divisions by their nature, even a medium sized

1059
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 3: business will have perhaps different branches in different places, people

1060
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 3: who don't know each other very well. I mean, there's

1061
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 3: a whole business in doing this. I mean, as you know,

1062
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 3: it's not actually an easy thing that there are obviously

1063
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 3: ways to do it.

1064
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 7: So that I think is a fascinating thing. Because I

1065
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 7: also happen to be in advertising, which means communication and

1066
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 7: this idea, so people are assuming the one word means purpose.

1067
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 7: But what I'm putting forward in this book is that

1068
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 7: each business, that a business is not just a business.

1069
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 7: You know, like me, are not just humans, we are

1070
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 7: human beings. So I'm putting forward the potential way of

1071
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 7: approaching business that a business is a business being. So

1072
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 7: it might have a human name. The business gets given

1073
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 7: a name by a founder, mostly like you give birth

1074
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 7: to a child. To give a child a name, that's

1075
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 7: a human name. But at the being of the business,

1076
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 7: at its heart, it's got another word. And to me,

1077
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 7: if I'm employing two, five, ten thousand people, if i

1078
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 7: can get everyone to understand that the business stands for

1079
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 7: something more than just money and that is sort of

1080
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 7: captured in one word. And having worked with various businesses

1081
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 7: of various scales, it's interesting there's always one word in

1082
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 7: the unconscious of a business, and often it's linked to

1083
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 7: the founder.

1084
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 3: How do you so the founder is able to create

1085
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 3: a culture that's around that word. Even even companies like Wilworth's.

1086
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 3: I mean they're one of your examples from Netbank for example,

1087
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 3: I mean they're able to They're able to do that

1088
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 3: across a massive, massive business.

1089
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 7: So Wooworth's is a great example because if you go back,

1090
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 7: I think it's nineteen thirty one or thirty three when

1091
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 7: Sonenberg founded Woolworths and in his original intention statement he

1092
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 7: had the word quality. And because it was then managed

1093
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 7: to he handed over to his son. So there was

1094
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 7: a second generation founder in that business that kept on

1095
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 7: building that business, and that's a hundred year almost hundred

1096
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 7: year old business, and built that business on this notion

1097
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 7: of quality and qualities. Today is still attle out of

1098
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 7: woolworth And in fact, Woworth is one of the very

1099
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,959
Speaker 7: few brands in the world if you had to ask

1100
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 7: consumers a decent sample size of one thousand and found

1101
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 7: people seventy percent plus, we'll say quality is the one

1102
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 7: word will Worth stand for? So what? And it's also

1103
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 7: said one of the executives stated that it's the invisible

1104
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 7: glove that holds the company together. So this idea of

1105
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 7: one word at the heart of business that can actually

1106
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 7: drive its culture, for me is very powerful because Einstein said,

1107
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 7: you know, simplicity is genius, and we always overcomplicate our businesses.

1108
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 7: So it's a call to get back to the simplicity,

1109
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 7: back to the heart of business.

1110
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 3: If you look through company reports and things, you know

1111
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 3: they'll all claim that they're not there. Just to produce capital.

1112
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 3: You have to actually be honest and authentic in that

1113
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 3: I hate the word authentic too for various reasons, but

1114
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 3: you have to be you actually do have to live it,

1115
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 3: and I imagine the leadership is absolutely key to that.

1116
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 7: So that was the the biggest insight in my doctoral

1117
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 7: journey because I went and really took a deep dive

1118
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 7: in it. Because everyone is struggling with implementation. Everyone defaults

1119
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 7: back to just the bottom line, which is our top priority.

1120
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 7: But it's called the bottom line, but it's the number

1121
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 7: one thing we look at on executive teams. So that

1122
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 7: was the big thing I was interested in. And if

1123
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 7: you really want to build a business that is more purposeful,

1124
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 7: and let's say you have ten leaders at the top

1125
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 7: of that business on your board, if those leaders are

1126
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,919
Speaker 7: not clear on their own individual purposes, if they don't

1127
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 7: know their own individual words that they stand for, it

1128
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 7: becomes impossible to implement. So implementation of purpose is the

1129
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 7: kill is hell, and that was what I was trying

1130
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 7: to solve for even in our own business, where we've

1131
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 7: desired or created a purpose for our business through bankruptcy

1132
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 7: back in two thousand and nine twenty ten, and even

1133
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 7: in our own business. We are not as on purpose

1134
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 7: as we can be. But it excites me because if

1135
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 7: we can achieve what we have being ten percent on purpose,

1136
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 7: imagine the room for growth.

1137
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 3: So I mean you do that, it takes a while,

1138
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 3: I mean, is it all a journey you have to

1139
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 3: sort of sort of have to keep going, But clearly

1140
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 3: from what you say, you will see the results and

1141
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 3: the results will absolutely be worth it.

1142
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 7: I've got so much data, and that's what it's almost

1143
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 7: like incomprehensible that people don't embrace it more. I think

1144
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 7: it is because it's really difficult to firstly to cognitively understand,

1145
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 7: but then to also implement. But there's so much data

1146
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 7: that businesses that really are more on purpose, like the

1147
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 7: Patagonias of the world, that are more profitable. So it

1148
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 7: is definitely approach that's more profitable. It does not negate

1149
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 7: the importance of capital in the business. Money is the lifeblood.

1150
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 7: I mean, your business will die without it, that's true.

1151
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 7: And money is very noble because it's to stay in livelihoods.

1152
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 7: So we're not negating the importance of money, but I'm

1153
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 7: saying it's a byproduct of something far greater than just

1154
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 7: the business exists to make capital.

1155
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 3: Peppe Mara, thanks very much, indeed really good to talk

1156
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 3: to you. Dr pepper maris the author of the book

1157
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 3: One Word, The Power of Simplicity in a Complex business World.

1158
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 3: And as you know, he's the co founder of Joe Public.

1159
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 3: Twenty eight minutes after.

1160
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 1: Seventh money, So how I make my money.

1161
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 3: Twenty five minutes now to eight the time. Well, as

1162
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 3: you know, there are lots of different ways to make money,

1163
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 3: and so often in our society. Now you will hear talk,

1164
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 3: you will hear a commentary, you'll hear the view of

1165
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 3: someone who works in the space of forensic investigations, someone

1166
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 3: who actually basically makes their money by going to find

1167
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 3: out what people have been doing, tries to get to

1168
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 3: the truth of something. I do various reports for people.

1169
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 3: Corporates will need it, sometimes, government departments will need it,

1170
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 3: all sorts of things. I can't help but feel quite

1171
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 3: sad when I say this in a way that this

1172
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 3: is a space that is growing. Well, one of them,

1173
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 3: and particularly one has become quite prominent, is Chad Thomas,

1174
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 3: the director in Forensic Investigated IRS. Forensic investigation. So we

1175
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 3: thought you'd be a good person to ask about what

1176
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 3: it's like to make your money in forensic investigations. Chad Thomas,

1177
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 3: good evening, and thanks so much for taking the time

1178
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 3: to talk to us.

1179
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 2: Stephen.

1180
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 4: Good evening to you, good evening to the listeners. Thank

1181
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 4: you so much for inviting me onto the show.

1182
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 3: Most people in your field, how do they start? I mean,

1183
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 3: there must have been a time when many would have

1184
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 3: started as a police officer. I imagine there are quite

1185
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 3: a few different routes into it, though, Stephen.

1186
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 4: It's an evergrowing industry. It's a strange industry, and it

1187
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 4: has its ups and downs. IRS was founded in two

1188
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 4: thousand and one. Is Integrated Resolutions, a division of REPS,

1189
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 4: a company your own good Revenue and ASCID Protection Services.

1190
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 4: And the reason we founded it was because we saw

1191
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 4: that there was a gap in the market for investigations

1192
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 4: into financial crime, specifically complex financial crime. When one looked

1193
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 4: at the organizations that were the most hit by financial crime,

1194
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 4: it was the insurance houses, it was the banks, it

1195
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 4: was other types of lenders, and now of course had

1196
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 4: an in house capacity to thwart this ever growing threat

1197
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 4: or to attempt to neutralize this evergrowing threats. But those

1198
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 4: that didn't have that capacity were the ones at the

1199
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 4: greatest risk of a catastrophical or business ending event. And

1200
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 4: those were small companies, in individuals, families and groups. And

1201
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 4: it was decided in two thousand and one when we

1202
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 4: established IRS that that was our target market. We would

1203
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 4: look after the small companies, we would look after the individuals,

1204
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 4: we'd look after the families.

1205
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 3: It's interesting, I mean, do a lot of people come

1206
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 3: into the investigation space from a security background. It would

1207
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 3: make sense.

1208
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 4: It used to be like that, investigations weren't as complex

1209
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 4: as they become. We live in a cyber and age,

1210
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 4: and investigations have changed over the years. It's not the

1211
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 4: days of check fraud, it's not the days of financial

1212
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 4: statement fraud, embezzlement. Things have changed dramatically over the landscape

1213
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 4: the last twenty five years. So where we used to

1214
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 4: see traditionally private investigators coming from the security cluster that

1215
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 4: been law enforcements, intelligence, be it the police, be at

1216
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 4: the military, we're now seeing a whole new generation of

1217
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 4: forensic audits as forensic accountants, people that are coming in

1218
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 4: from criminology backgrounds, legal backgrounds, understanding that there's a need

1219
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 4: for these investigations into complex financial crime and organized crime. Sadly,

1220
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 4: the state hasn't been able to keep up with these changes,

1221
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 4: nor have a lot of corporate surprisingly, because fraudsters, by

1222
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 4: their very nature are a debtor change and they look

1223
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 4: out for black swan events, and they constantly on the

1224
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 4: move and they constantly influx.

1225
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,040
Speaker 2: And that's why you'll see the industry.

1226
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 4: Of forensic investigations has changed so dramatically. We've got a

1227
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 4: lot of young investigators, a lot of graduates that you

1228
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 4: wouldn't have expected to move.

1229
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 2: Into the space.

1230
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 4: People that are it literate, people who are understanding of criminology,

1231
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 4: understanding of sociology, understanding of law. So no more is

1232
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 4: it a while I'm retiring from the police. I've got

1233
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 4: a package. Let me not be bored. Let me rather

1234
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 4: put my money into this. It's now become an industry

1235
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 4: where it's very professionalized and it's extremely dynamic, and sadly,

1236
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 4: like you mentioned at the outside of the insert, it's

1237
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 4: growing because of this huge growth in fraud worldwide.

1238
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 3: So I mean, I presume a lot of people, as

1239
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 3: you say, have a degree. Those must be the investigations though,

1240
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 3: that are kind of the more interesting, the more intricate,

1241
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 3: the high level stuff. Let me use a different word, Chad.

1242
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 3: The cleverest scams must be the more interesting ones.

1243
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 4: You know what, We still see a lot of Ponzi's,

1244
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 4: We see a lot of pyramids, we see a lot

1245
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 4: of multiplication schemes.

1246
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 2: So those old schemes are still around.

1247
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 4: They've just changed the way they operate, but at the

1248
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 4: very basics they're still the same. We speak about romance scams,

1249
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 4: you talk about four nine scams. You know, in the eighties,

1250
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 4: before one nine scam, which is an advanced fee scam

1251
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 4: that originated out of West Africa.

1252
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 2: You used to get a letter in the mail. In

1253
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: the nineties, you used to get effects.

1254
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 3: In the two.

1255
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 2: Thousands, you'd get an email.

1256
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 4: Now you get contacted via social media or professional databases

1257
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 4: like LinkedIn, and it's changed from being a black dollar

1258
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 4: scheme or please have been put out of power and

1259
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 4: are like now with Iran. If this was forty years ago,

1260
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 4: you'd get a letter from one of the people that

1261
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 4: was close to the Iatona purportedly who now has money

1262
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 4: ban offshore and needs your help to release those funds.

1263
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 2: Now it's far more advanced.

1264
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 4: People are contacting you regarding the blockchain, the contact you

1265
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 4: regarding cybercrypto, and it's much of a muchness.

1266
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 2: In terms of the way the scheme is.

1267
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 4: They've just used the newer technology, the newer terminology, and

1268
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 4: the newer black swan events to be able to further

1269
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 4: what is a very simple fraud which has always been around.

1270
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 3: I mean, they seem to also know a huge amount

1271
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 3: about us. I mean I got a WhatsApp the other

1272
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 3: day purporting to be from a government agency that new

1273
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 3: things about me, and I was like, this is interesting,

1274
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 3: and it was clearly a scam, and people are able

1275
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 3: to find all sorts of different ways to do it.

1276
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 3: The things that you're up against, the threats that you

1277
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 3: have to now investigate, seem to have widened in scope,

1278
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 3: if I can put it like that.

1279
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 2: Very much so, Stephen.

1280
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 4: What you're talking about is what is the greatest concern

1281
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 4: to us, and that's that we all live this digital

1282
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 4: life now, and if you can hack a database with

1283
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 4: confidential information, like we've seen one of the biggest credit

1284
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 4: bureaus at holds a lot of sense of information was

1285
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 4: hacked a few years ago. We've heard of bangs been

1286
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,719
Speaker 4: had a lot of the online shopping we do those

1287
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 4: portals have been at and they get access to information,

1288
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 4: they get access to your card information, they get access

1289
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 4: to a lot of stuff that they can use to

1290
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 4: defraud you. It's of massive concern that we've got these

1291
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 4: issues around the privacy of our data and how our

1292
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,600
Speaker 4: data has been exploited and how a dept like I

1293
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, these frauces have become in the digital space

1294
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 4: and what is for sale on the dark wad, what

1295
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 4: is for sale by these these syndicates in some cases

1296
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 4: that are state backed. You know that the North Koreans

1297
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 4: have scam centers that are set up with the nod

1298
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 4: of approval from government. We've seen it in Myanmar, We've

1299
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 4: seen that out of the Eastern Bloc in Russia. So

1300
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 4: you've got state sanctioned bad actors not targeting other states,

1301
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 4: but actually targeting individuals using this access to this incredible

1302
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,679
Speaker 4: technology that their state has created.

1303
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,639
Speaker 3: It really is, I mean, it's amazing to see it.

1304
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 3: Are there cases, I mean there must be some that

1305
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 3: are quite simple you can almost immediately know what they are,

1306
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 3: and some that are more complex. When you start an investigation,

1307
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 3: do you often have an idea at the very beginning.

1308
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 3: I mean, a company will have come to you a

1309
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 3: client will have come to you and they will say,

1310
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:23,680
Speaker 3: this is what I think happened. This is who I

1311
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 3: think is responsible. I need an investigation. Is it? Often

1312
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,599
Speaker 3: is the client? Often? Right? Is it the person they

1313
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 3: thought that it was. Once you've finished and you're able

1314
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 3: to kind of work out what really happened.

1315
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 4: Yes, a lot of the times they don't want it

1316
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 4: to be. They have their suspicions. They don't want those

1317
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 4: suspicions very far, but they have to for the sake

1318
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 4: of their business because, like I mentioned, we do work

1319
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 4: for smaller companies and fraud can be business ending. It

1320
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 4: can be catastrophic for them. So we see a lot

1321
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 4: of payroll fraud, ghost employees. We see a lot of

1322
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 4: vendor fraud, ghost vendors. We see a lot of payments

1323
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 4: that don't exist. In other words, accounts get set up,

1324
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 4: you get told to release funds.

1325
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 2: It could be to size, but it's not being paid

1326
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 2: to size. It could be to a supplyer as not

1327
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 2: to a supplier.

1328
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 4: You see a lot of people become so comfortable in

1329
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 4: defrauding organizations. They've been there for years and years and years.

1330
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 4: They're in a position of trust that they've become so

1331
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 4: lazy that they don't even transfer the moneys into MUL accounts,

1332
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 4: they transferred into other family members accounts, or they set

1333
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 4: up ghost employee accounts using their own bank account particulars.

1334
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 4: It's unbelievable how lacks some systems have become.

1335
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 2: And it's because of the trust factor.

1336
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 4: And this is the worst part is fraud is so

1337
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 4: devastating and destructive by its very nature, not just in

1338
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:46,719
Speaker 4: monetary terms, but also from the trust perspective, because once

1339
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,880
Speaker 4: somebody who's been a trusted employee, sometimes even family members,

1340
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:53,560
Speaker 4: have defrauded you, you never treat a business transaction or

1341
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 4: an employee or a family member the same.

1342
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 2: After that, you will always always doubt them.

1343
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine what that mospheel like.

1344
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 3: It must it must really feel like having, you know,

1345
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 3: part of europed open. When a person when you finish

1346
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 3: an investigation, what happens after that? I mean, do you

1347
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 3: go and confront the person? Do you just give the

1348
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 3: information to your clients and tell them to get on

1349
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 3: with it, that this is the information they need. I mean,

1350
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 3: what happens after that?

1351
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 4: So that's what differentiates us from forensic auditors and legal practitioners.

1352
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 4: We don't submit to report, and we don't look at

1353
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 4: open source intelligence, and we don't come to a considered

1354
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:37,840
Speaker 4: opinion and give a recommendation.

1355
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 2: We go from beginning to end.

1356
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 4: So you come to us and there's statutory reporting obligations

1357
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 4: that are required in terms of the values of fraud

1358
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 4: in South Africa, whether or not there's a there's there's

1359
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 4: the banking system that's been implicated, whether or not size

1360
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,639
Speaker 4: in some way has been prejudiced. So there's a reporting

1361
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 4: obligation that a lot of clients are unaware of, and

1362
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 4: it's a statute report your obligation. There's sanctions if you

1363
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:04,440
Speaker 4: don't report the fact that you may have been defrauded

1364
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 4: or somebody's bank accountries used to launder funds, or that

1365
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 4: stars may have been prejudiced. So the first thing we

1366
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 4: always do from a prema FUCKI perspective, if there is

1367
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 4: a case, is we make those statutory reports. Once we've

1368
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 4: made those statute to reports, we do a deep dive.

1369
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 4: IRS Forensic Investigations is one of the very few organizations

1370
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 4: in the private sector that received an exemption from the

1371
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 4: Information Regulator back in twenty twenty three, which was gazetted.

1372
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 4: So we able to do a deep dive provided we

1373
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 4: have a mandate in place and there's a.

1374
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 2: Valid reason for that mandate.

1375
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 4: So we can't come to us and ask us to

1376
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 4: investigate a state's official WILLI knity.

1377
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 2: We can't do that. We can't investigate the states. We

1378
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 2: can't interfere with the state.

1379
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 4: But if they can come to us show us documentation

1380
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 4: there's an employee, there's a vendor, there's somebody that's involved

1381
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 4: in a fraud and it's prejudice them, then they've got

1382
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:52,839
Speaker 4: the full authority to empower us to investigate on their behalf.

1383
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 4: Once we've reached a point where we have an understanding

1384
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 4: of how the fraud transpired and who the suspects are.

1385
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 4: We believe very strongly in the doctrine of ali ultrum partums,

1386
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 4: so we give a rat reply to the suspect. Understand

1387
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 4: that we've already made our statutory reports to the regulatory authorities,

1388
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 4: and all we're doing is reaching out to a suspect

1389
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 4: or to their legal practitioner that they may have appointed,

1390
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 4: to give them a right of reply because sometimes there

1391
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 4: may be and it's very rare logical explanation that wasn't

1392
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 4: considered by ourself and our clients, how this prejudice occurred,

1393
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:28,719
Speaker 4: perhaps it was an a fraud. Thereafter we register the case,

1394
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 4: we have that case escalated to a specialized unit depending

1395
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,799
Speaker 4: on the complexity of the case, depending on the values involved.

1396
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 4: When a prosecutor is appointed in the matter, because prosecutorial guarded,

1397
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 4: we liaised with that prosecutor on an investigating watching brief

1398
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 4: and we try to see it to the end because ultimately,

1399
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 4: in any financial crime, the victim is looking for restorative

1400
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 4: justice and financial restitution, and that's what we're trying to

1401
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:54,919
Speaker 4: achieve for them.

1402
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing that must you know,

1403
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 3: when you get right down to it. It's interesting that

1404
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:04,679
Speaker 3: you say they are. Sometimes there's an innocent explanation. Where

1405
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 3: where do people normally get caught? What do they do wrong?

1406
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 3: I mean you said someone just so lazy for example?

1407
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 3: Is there you know, is there a particular mistake or

1408
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 3: something that people make that suddenly that you see time

1409
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 3: and time again. Oh, this is how the person got caught.

1410
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 3: I bet they got caught like this.

1411
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,559
Speaker 4: When it's employee related, there's actually a profile that we

1412
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 4: have and you'll find that that employee was in middle management,

1413
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 4: was exceptionally trusted work the longest hours. Never took leave

1414
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:45,040
Speaker 4: was most probably single, divorced or widowed, has children that

1415
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 4: have grown up, and perhaps as an online gaming habit,

1416
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 4: and surprisingly they get caught out when they forced or

1417
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 4: oblige to take leave because unlike days of days, days

1418
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 4: of that have gotten by, you have to take leave

1419
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 4: now because you can only accumulate up to eighteen months

1420
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 4: worth of leave days. And it's when somebody's forced to

1421
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 4: take leave and somebody's brought in to replace them that

1422
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 4: it's exposed and found out that there was something wrong

1423
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 4: and an inquiry is lodged and it's found that there

1424
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 4: was somewhat other embezzlement that's been taking place for a

1425
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:20,680
Speaker 4: very long time, and as mentioned earlier, normally points to

1426
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:27,240
Speaker 4: ghost employees, ghost vendors, And it's that betrayal that sets

1427
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 4: off the alarm bells and creates this distrust within organizations

1428
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 4: because it's a person that was in a position of

1429
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 4: trust for such a long time that would never have

1430
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 4: been found out if it hadn't been for the fact

1431
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 4: that they were forced to take leave.

1432
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 3: I mean, that's I mean, I'm always suspicious of people

1433
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 3: who don't want to take leave, And I mean some

1434
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 3: of my favorite people are like that simply because they're

1435
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 3: hard working, not for any other reason. How often is

1436
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 3: someone doing something on their own as opposed to working

1437
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 3: with another group of people to try and defraud the

1438
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 3: company or whatever it is they're doing.

1439
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 2: So they sit side by side.

1440
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 4: You've got fraud syndicates that are actively trying to get

1441
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 4: into companies so that they can defraud them through either

1442
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:12,679
Speaker 4: business email compromise or through the creation of fake vendors

1443
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 4: or the rerouting of funds. And then you've got those

1444
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 4: that sit within an organization that want to defraud that organization.

1445
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 4: Both put that organization at equal risk, whether it's an

1446
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:25,600
Speaker 4: internal person or whether it's an external person. Syndicates are

1447
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:29,759
Speaker 4: growing daily fraud worldwide, and scams grow forty percent per annum.

1448
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:33,639
Speaker 4: So it's a frightening situation that we find ourselves. We've

1449
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 4: all got the SMSs, we've all got the whiteseps, we've

1450
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,679
Speaker 4: all got the emails where people have tried to phish

1451
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 4: and try to get information. The scary partner is what

1452
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier, You got contacted by government. They seem

1453
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 4: to have a lot of your particulars, and that's what

1454
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,719
Speaker 4: we see the syndicates are doing. Now they know, when,

1455
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 4: for example, you've bought a property and the transfer is

1456
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,759
Speaker 4: going to go through that they can create a spoof

1457
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 4: email from your attorney, knowing exactly what the amount is,

1458
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:03,639
Speaker 4: and then give you fake banking details to pay those

1459
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 4: funds across It turns out to be immunaccount. It's an

1460
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:09,720
Speaker 4: ever growing threat. We don't just see that with transfers

1461
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 4: of properties. We also see in that with vendors, where

1462
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,600
Speaker 4: your vendor will contact you with what looks like a

1463
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 4: proper email address and tell you that their banking particulars

1464
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,920
Speaker 4: have changed, knowing that every month you pay that vendor

1465
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:22,280
Speaker 4: around about the same amount of money, and they tell

1466
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 4: you this is the new bank account. So they actually

1467
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 4: attach a letter from the bank to say, well, this

1468
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 4: is the new bank account. And it's that information that's

1469
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 4: out there that concerns us because how do they know

1470
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 4: you've bought a property, how do they know who your

1471
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 4: vendor is? Do they have somebody external attacking you, or

1472
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:40,960
Speaker 4: do they have somebody internally that's selling your information. And

1473
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:44,080
Speaker 4: this is the dilemma that organizations are based with, along

1474
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:47,639
Speaker 4: with the fact that people are more willing to commit

1475
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:50,680
Speaker 4: fraud now than they ever were before. It seems as

1476
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,880
Speaker 4: if because there's been so little consequence and accountability, and

1477
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 4: because companies don't want it made public that they've been defrauded,

1478
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 4: they rather just let somebody go off. That we find

1479
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,599
Speaker 4: in repeat offenders moving from company to company to company

1480
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 4: simply because the one company didn't.

1481
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 2: Have his zero tolerance moved them on.

1482
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 4: They went to a new company, the company couldn't get

1483
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 4: a reference because of the Poppy Act. And these people

1484
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 4: carry on doing the same thing time and time again.

1485
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 3: Sure so interesting. Chad Thomas's director in Forensic Investigated IRS

1486
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:24,240
Speaker 3: Forensic Investigations, telling you how he makes his money Tonight

1487
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 3: on The Money Show eight minutes now to eight.

1488
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:30,960
Speaker 10: The Money Show Stupid Cruetes is brought to you by

1489
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:35,639
Speaker 10: Absolve Corporate and Investment backing proud sponsors of GTR Africa

1490
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 10: twenty twenty six enabling trade flows for Growth AHAPS as

1491
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:40,520
Speaker 10: a registered theirsp.

1492
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:45,759
Speaker 1: The Money Show, How I Make my money?

1493
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 3: We're speaking to Chad Thomas, the director of Forensic Investigated

1494
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 3: IRS Forensic Investigations here, of course is the person that

1495
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 3: you hear quite often. But he's telling us how what

1496
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:58,200
Speaker 3: kind of career you can have in that field, Chad,

1497
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:02,720
Speaker 3: when someone's what would they be more likely to be

1498
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 3: working on, I mean, I get a sense that a

1499
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,480
Speaker 3: lot of it is sitting behind a computer going through information.

1500
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:11,800
Speaker 3: This is the investigations I'm talking about, all going through

1501
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 3: financial data. I mean, is that sort of what people

1502
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:16,479
Speaker 3: spend their days doing in your game?

1503
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 2: Very much so.

1504
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 4: Ninety five percent of our work is desktop investigations. Our

1505
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:27,559
Speaker 4: team is made up primarily of analysts. We tend to

1506
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 4: employ people that have a research background or did an

1507
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 4: undergrad that involved a lot of research, because that is

1508
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 4: what you're doing. You researching your subject. You're following the money.

1509
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 4: You're looking to find funds to bring back into you know,

1510
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 4: to the victim. In terms of the restitution, the restarts

1511
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:48,959
Speaker 4: of justice, so door kicking has become almost non existent.

1512
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,000
Speaker 4: And when we do attend a door kicking LOK we

1513
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 4: did recently with the scam Core center that was busted

1514
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 4: in Brandsteed, which was a very long investigation we did

1515
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 4: with law enforcement partners from around the world. We stand

1516
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 4: behind the perimeter, we let the stake go in. They

1517
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,920
Speaker 4: do the door kicking, They serve the warrants, they serve

1518
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 4: the search and seizures, and they do the necessary work

1519
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:13,799
Speaker 4: based off the back of what we've been doing with them.

1520
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 2: For however long.

1521
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 4: And that was a five year project to bust that

1522
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:21,599
Speaker 4: international scam Core Center that was targeting English speaking foreigners

1523
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 4: out of South Africa, so door kicking absolute minimum desktop

1524
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:29,840
Speaker 4: research ninety five percent of the time.

1525
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, one of the problems with scam artists

1526
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 3: is that they think they're doing the right thing. There

1527
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 3: was a scammer a long time ago now where someone

1528
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 3: would phone the Core center was in India, as I understood,

1529
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:47,600
Speaker 3: it would phone often an elderly person and find a

1530
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 3: way to take over that person's computer. And then you

1531
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 3: can imagine what would happen after that. And I intercepted

1532
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 3: a call, spoke to the person and said, I know

1533
01:21:57,400 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 3: you're working for a scam She was like no, she

1534
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 3: was a solutely adamant. I mean, it's one of the

1535
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:04,880
Speaker 3: problems that the people who are doing the scamming don't

1536
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 3: always think they're doing the wrong thing. I mean, I

1537
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 3: suppose in the cases you're dealing with, most of them

1538
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 3: do know they're doing the wrong thing, or they certainly

1539
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 3: know they mustn't get caught.

1540
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:16,679
Speaker 4: So very interesting, and I need to make it quick

1541
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 4: because I see you running out of town. When one

1542
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 4: looks at the Miyanma call center that was it had

1543
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 4: a lot of South Africans working in it. Those South

1544
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 4: Africans were alert to Thailand under the pretext of teaching

1545
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 4: English and Chailand and then taken across the border in

1546
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 4: Yanma and trafficked into running these call centers South Africa.

1547
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 2: Completely different dynamic.

1548
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:43,240
Speaker 4: The call centers that we've bust were South Africans targeting Americans, Canadians,

1549
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 4: people from the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand English speaking countries.

1550
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:49,720
Speaker 2: But they knew what they were doing. They would drive

1551
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 2: to work.

1552
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,680
Speaker 4: Every day, they would assume that alias when they walked in,

1553
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 4: and they knew exactly what they were doing.

1554
01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 2: So it just shows the absolute brazenness.

1555
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:04,040
Speaker 4: And again it comes down to accountability consequence and also

1556
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 4: the fact that society doesn't seem to care right now.

1557
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 4: You know, they talk about the hustle and if that

1558
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 4: hustle means scamming somebody, well too bad.

1559
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 2: I was cleverer than you.

1560
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 4: And this is this type of mindset that we're trying

1561
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:21,839
Speaker 4: to change, but it's so difficult in today's digital era, Chad.

1562
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 3: When you look at systems that companies have and how

1563
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,599
Speaker 3: people get around them, have you ever come across a

1564
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 3: system that you think might be close to fool proof?

1565
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 3: And the reason, obviously is trust. You have to have

1566
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 3: someone you can trust. And I always use this example

1567
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 3: that a company as big as Steinhoff could have someone

1568
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 3: right at the center of it who actually you couldn't

1569
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:46,680
Speaker 3: trust in, Marcus Jester, is there any system that you're

1570
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 3: aware of that can stop this kind of thing from happening?

1571
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 2: On paper? Kings five looks incredible.

1572
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 4: Corporate governance, ethics, it looks amazing, having an independent risk

1573
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 4: and audited committee, having non z X on your board,

1574
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 4: it looks amazing. But not everybody can afford that. It

1575
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 4: has to come down to old fashioned controls. And unfortunately,

1576
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:12,639
Speaker 4: we've relinquished so much control into this digital space that

1577
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:17,000
Speaker 4: we're forgetting about the fundamentals. And if we can wrestle

1578
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:23,160
Speaker 4: back control and wrestle back old fashioned checking, checking, checking,

1579
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 4: and ensuring that their verification is in place, we can

1580
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 4: help turn back some of the fraud. But fraudsters are

1581
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 4: so advanced now that it will be very difficult to

1582
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:35,000
Speaker 4: stop it from happening, and there's nothing at the moment

1583
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:36,759
Speaker 4: that is one hundred percent fool proof.

1584
01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, we've got thirty seconds left. But your industry

1585
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:42,840
Speaker 3: is I would imagine a growth industry. There'll be space

1586
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:44,559
Speaker 3: for more people with the right skills.

1587
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 2: It is.

1588
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:48,719
Speaker 4: It's very much a grudge payment. I know the shows

1589
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,519
Speaker 4: about making money. We barely make money simply because we

1590
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,160
Speaker 4: are victim centric and we want to get them restitution.

1591
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,639
Speaker 4: We want to get their restorants of justice. We're doing

1592
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:00,760
Speaker 4: something the state should be doing, but the state at

1593
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:01,919
Speaker 4: the moment isn't equipped.

1594
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 2: Until they equipped, we're going to carry on doing it.

1595
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 4: We're going to carry on being victim centric, and we're

1596
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:09,800
Speaker 4: going to carry on finding the youngsters that are enthusiastic

1597
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:11,280
Speaker 4: and wanting to make a difference.

1598
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,439
Speaker 3: Chad Thomas, thanks so much, really appreciate the time, Director

1599
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 3: and forensic investigator at IRS Forensic Investigations.

1600
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 10: The Money Show, Stupid Protest is brought to you by

1601
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:27,879
Speaker 10: APPSOL Corporate and Investment backing proud sponsors of GTR Africa

1602
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 10: twenty twenty six, enabling trade flows for growth as is

1603
01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:32,640
Speaker 10: the richest fsp.

1604
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 3: Well US market's still reeling rarely from the situation regarding

1605
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 3: oil prices, that our Jones is down to four percent,

1606
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:43,880
Speaker 3: NASDEK is down point two seven, the S and P

1607
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,600
Speaker 3: five hundred is down point sixty one. Does look like

1608
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:49,599
Speaker 3: tech stocks are coming back a little bit, so that'll help.

1609
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 3: And of course oil prices have been such a major issue.

1610
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 3: Brent crude now ninety eight dollars seventy three cents a barrel,

1611
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 3: so a little lower than it was earlier, but still

1612
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 3: very very difficult that I imagine we'll still be driving markets tomorrow.

1613
01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 3: We'll be back then. Good evening. Aubrey is next. It's

1614
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:06,599
Speaker 3: eight o'clock