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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two. Let's walk little.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 2: by absins CIB Proud Sole Leader Arranger and Infrastructure Finance

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Speaker 2: Structuring Agent of the South African National Treasuries eleven point

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Speaker 2: eight billion Round Infrastructure and Development Finance Bond. Good evening,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the program. Eight minutes after six. I'm Stephen Curtis.

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Speaker 2: Glad you're still with us on The Money Show. Even

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Speaker 2: though things are certainly beginning to slow down. The Sock

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Speaker 2: Exchange News services really just got sort of you know,

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Speaker 2: pre scheduled stuff on. Not a lot going on, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of money stories generally speaking, you see what

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Speaker 2: I mean, and we'll focus on some of those tonight.

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Speaker 2: I think the big shock probably was around inflation slightly

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Speaker 2: lower than expected, and suddenly people are talking about an

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Speaker 2: interest rate cut next year. You wouldn't have said that

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Speaker 2: at the beginning of the year, and in fact, and

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Speaker 2: I realized that I am sort of naturally optimistic. I

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Speaker 2: don't know where it comes from, but I would say that,

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Speaker 2: if unbalanced, this has been one of the best years

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Speaker 2: that we've seen, certainly on the JC, but perhaps for

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Speaker 2: the economy. And let me just explain what I mean.

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Speaker 2: We don't see it yet, but all of the reforms

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Speaker 2: at some point should build on each other. What's happening

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Speaker 2: with Peer two at the Durban Harbor, for example, a

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Speaker 2: foreign operator, you know, the foreign operator now in charge

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Speaker 2: of that private company. What we've seen with ESK and

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Speaker 2: load chatting, I think we can sort of almost safely

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Speaker 2: say will probably never happen again. Certainly the longer we

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Speaker 2: go without it, the more secure I think we're going

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Speaker 2: to feel. And you look at some of the other

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Speaker 2: things operation for Lindlela, reform upon reform. At some point

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Speaker 2: the will needs to start turning. And surely next year

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Speaker 2: is when that is going to happen. Well, I certainly hope.

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Speaker 2: So in let's just see our things pan out. Big

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Speaker 2: story today around Mosul and that's the big aluminium smelter

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Speaker 2: in Mozambique, three percent of Mozambique's GDP being shut down.

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Speaker 2: At the same time Jscienzo ro Macorpa our elipt esteem

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Speaker 2: minister confirming this is a moneyweb report keeping our smell

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Speaker 2: has opened, in other words, allowing them to pay less

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Speaker 2: than the standard electricity charge it's going to cost five

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Speaker 2: point two billion round. Well, we've asked jose Maleisure, but

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Speaker 2: all of that together for us. Will speak to her

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Speaker 2: in just a moment. More, of course, on the inflation picture,

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Speaker 2: doctor Azaji Min from econom Metrics. He'll be on your

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Speaker 2: radio in about ten minutes from now. We'll talk as

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Speaker 2: well to Isaac Wertendhal. There's so much going on in

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Speaker 2: the US economy and we just thought it might be

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Speaker 2: helpful to get a sense of what is going to

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Speaker 2: happen next year. For the moment, the main scenario is

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Speaker 2: what they call a Goldilocks scenario, not too hot, not

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Speaker 2: too cold. It's called Goldilocks from the sort of fairy

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Speaker 2: the English fairy tale, the sort of European fairy tale.

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Speaker 2: I suppose I should call it where she wanted the porridge,

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Speaker 2: and porridge was either too hot or too cold, but

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Speaker 2: some of it was just right, and that's why it's

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Speaker 2: called a Goldilock scenario. Of course, there are several threats

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Speaker 2: to the US economy, and we all know where those

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Speaker 2: threats come from. I don't think I need to spell

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Speaker 2: them out. And we'll talk eights as well. Just before

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Speaker 2: seven o'clock, predep Maharaj is the executive director. It's a

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Speaker 2: wonderful name. He's the executive director of the Payment Ecosystem

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Speaker 2: Modernization Program. Really quite keen to get a deeper understanding

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Speaker 2: of what's happening with ATMs are gonna it's gonna change fundamentally,

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Speaker 2: and then do stick around or if you miss it,

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Speaker 2: go back and download our podcast later. But your shape

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Speaker 2: shift of this evening is Lean Nike. He's the CEO

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Speaker 2: of Trance Union Africa. Really being in it for many years.

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Speaker 2: Started out studying computer science, and I do want to

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Speaker 2: ask if you sort of grew up with a PC

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Speaker 2: in the home. I was lucky enough to still have

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Speaker 2: memories of how important that was for me, even though

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Speaker 2: my IT skills now pretty much amount to giving my

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Speaker 2: phone to my son and asking him to sort it out.

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Speaker 2: I good to hear from you. O double one double

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Speaker 2: A three oh seven oh two two one four four

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Speaker 2: six oh five six seven and voice notes tonight on

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Speaker 2: O seven two seven oh two one seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: Good evening. It's twelve minutes after six The Money Show

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Speaker 2: with Stephen Kruder's Live ninety two point seven and one

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Speaker 2: O six FM streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 3: Navel and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: Well reports today that government's plan to help smelter stay

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Speaker 2: open in South Africa is gonna cost five point two

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Speaker 2: billion rand money. We're reporting the Electricity and Stuhot Centerroma

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Speaker 2: Corpora said they'll find the money. At the moment, he

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to know where it will come from. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: a formal announcement from South thirty two they're going to

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Speaker 2: shut down the Moses smelter in Mozambique they can't find

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Speaker 2: an alternative source of power. Their current agreement runs out

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Speaker 2: at the end of March. As I say, that's three

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Speaker 2: percent of Mozenbiak's GDP. Hosso Malaysia is an expert on

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Speaker 2: energy and financing. Howso, good evening. We know that helping

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Speaker 2: our smelters was never going to count cheap. But even so,

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Speaker 2: five point two billion rand is a huge amount of money.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, it was never gonna come cheap. I mean, the

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Speaker 4: basis of the smelters being being around in many countries

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Speaker 4: ste is access to chep electricity, abandon electricity. We're no

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Speaker 4: longer in that situation, so it's quite expensive to be

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Speaker 4: able to to keep them and keep their electricity prices low,

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Speaker 4: So yeah, that's correct.

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Speaker 2: So I mean this then leads to the question is

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Speaker 2: it worth it? And I realize this is a very

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Speaker 2: complex discussion because government is helping to subsidize private companies.

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Speaker 2: It believes that by doing that it will help the

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Speaker 2: rest of the economy, but it needs to help the

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Speaker 2: rest of the economy by you know, at least five

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Speaker 2: point two billion rounds worth it, As I say, a

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Speaker 2: complex argument.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very complex argument because on the one hand,

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Speaker 4: an increase in electricity prices and cross subsidizing the others

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Speaker 4: has an impact on the general economy as well, So

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Speaker 4: it's quite a complex issue. On the one hand, they

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Speaker 4: helping them helps jobs, help the economy going. But so

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Speaker 4: the question is what how do you? Yeah, what is

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Speaker 4: the best option to move? And it's not I don't envy.

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Speaker 4: Anybody has to make that decision.

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Speaker 2: I suppose the other thing that you need to judge

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Speaker 2: is how much demand for steel is they're going to

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Speaker 2: be in the future, and for ferrochrome in this case,

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Speaker 2: and then also the other producers are they going to

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Speaker 2: be able to continue producing it at the price they're

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Speaker 2: producing it for China is as I understand that the

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Speaker 2: electricity prices are much lower. That's the big variable, and

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Speaker 2: I can't rarely see China they're going through a power

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Speaker 2: evolution at the moment, I can't rarely see them running

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Speaker 2: into trouble there. In other words, are we running the

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Speaker 2: risk of spending a huge amount of money and in

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Speaker 2: the end we're going to have to let them go anyway.

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Speaker 4: That's a huge potential. Like I said earlier, on the

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Speaker 4: basis of the success of many smelters around the world

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Speaker 4: is to be in an area where the prices are

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Speaker 4: relative to cheer and the sufficient electricity available. South Africa

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Speaker 4: was once in that situation where we had excess supply

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Speaker 4: of electricity and therefore it needed to attract big energy

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Speaker 4: intensive users. That situation has changed and we cannot compete

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Speaker 4: with others now in that situation. Though, there's a need

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Speaker 4: to review that situation and look at it in today's

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Speaker 4: context where the context has completely changed. We have higher prices,

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Speaker 4: we need more infrastructure. Is going to cost us a

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Speaker 4: lot to put in additional infrastructure to meet the needs

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Speaker 4: of the economy. So that question now is completely changed,

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Speaker 4: and you are right, China is in a different situation altogether.

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Speaker 2: The closure of the Mosl smelter. I would imagine it's

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Speaker 2: all the same reason. So when we talk about a

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Speaker 2: power crisis, we tend to talk about our own country.

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Speaker 2: I realized that that electricity moves around Southern Africa, but

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Speaker 2: this is really now a Southern African story. And that

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Speaker 2: leads to the next question, which would be is that

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Speaker 2: there's not enough electricity in Southern Africa to run smelters

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Speaker 2: right now?

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Speaker 5: Yah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would agree, oh with that. We look at

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Speaker 4: the Zambia they are having an electricity crisis there where

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Speaker 4: they supply. They don't have sufficient supply to meet demand.

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Speaker 4: Mozambique the same thing have been importing for Mosa. Yes,

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Speaker 4: there are plans in the future, but they are not

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Speaker 4: current plans in terms of gas a long way off.

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Speaker 4: So in the region in general, we don't have now

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Speaker 4: access to access electricity and cheaper electricity, and so the

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Speaker 4: dynamic is changing and our industrial policies need to then

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Speaker 4: respond to that kind of a challenge.

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Speaker 2: Is there any realistic chance who say that a lot

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Speaker 2: more electricity becomes available in this part of the world

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Speaker 2: at any time soon? And where I'm really going with

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Speaker 2: this is we see the huge investment both by companies

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Speaker 2: and by ordinary people in solar power. We know they

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Speaker 2: are more IPPs. They are also generating electricity through solar.

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Speaker 2: I realized sola is not ideal for smelters. You really

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Speaker 2: want with base load power, so coal, nuclear, something like that.

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Speaker 2: But is there any prospect of a lot more electricity

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Speaker 2: or electricity in Southern Africa becoming cheaper soon? If there

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Speaker 2: is in the next five years, maybe it's worth keeping

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Speaker 2: the smelters open and paying the money. But if there

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Speaker 2: isn't over the next ten years, that changes the equation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't see prospects because the more you have

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Speaker 4: to add infrastructure, electricity infrastructure, the more capex you spend

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Speaker 4: and therefore the more electricity prices will go up. So

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Speaker 4: don't see a prospect for that. We don't have a significant,

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Speaker 4: say hydro power supply from the DFC. That project is

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Speaker 4: not going to work anytime soon. It also needs significant

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Speaker 4: infrastructure investments transmission all the way from the DFC through Zambia,

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Speaker 4: the down South up to through Zimbabwe and then up

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Speaker 4: to South Africa. So there are a lot of challenges

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Speaker 4: and not enough solutions. Even our projects now that we're

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Speaker 4: starting to help with in terms of transmission infrastructure for

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Speaker 4: renewable energy. Like you said, they're going to bring in

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Speaker 4: base load capacity and we are planning to decommission some

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Speaker 4: of the coal fired power plants, so in the next

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Speaker 4: five years no co see.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, indeed very sobering, Hoso Malaysias and

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Speaker 2: energy and finance expert. Really does tell you the complexity

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Speaker 2: of these debates. Nineteen minutes after six I interview of

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Speaker 2: a view five point two billion rand? Is that money

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Speaker 2: well spent on smelters? Do we need to cut our losses?

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Speaker 2: What if we rarely need the material at some point?

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Speaker 2: We might good to hear from you on oh seven

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Speaker 2: seven one seven two The Laney Show on seven oas

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Speaker 2: Monday till Friday six to a pm. Nineteen after six

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Speaker 2: Wellstat's essay saying consumer price inflation just three point five

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Speaker 2: percent in October. Food price inflation is still slightly higher,

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Speaker 2: but generally it looks like inflation is well within the

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Speaker 2: top level of what I suppose we should now call

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Speaker 2: the inflation targets band of tolerance. Doctor Azzaja Mean's director

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Speaker 2: and chief economists to Econometrics Azar Good evening. It looks

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Speaker 2: like the big factor that pushed food prices up was

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Speaker 2: meat prices. Some other food categories actually saw deflation overall

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Speaker 2: food inflation, yes, four point four percent, but it does

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Speaker 2: it doesn't look too scary, I mean, is it contained.

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Speaker 6: You're absolutely correct, good evening, Stephen. Food price inflation is

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Speaker 6: being contained and is likely to continue being contained if

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Speaker 6: one looks at the very favorable agricultural weather conditions that

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Speaker 6: are prevailing in many parts of the country at the moment,

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Speaker 6: assisting excellent crops in various areas, not only summer rainfall areas,

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Speaker 6: but also down in the wall Pentlands. The big problem

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Speaker 6: that we've had is the foot and mouth disease issue

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Speaker 6: that has resulted in an escalation of the beef prices,

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Speaker 6: and now we're seeing a lot of piggyback by many

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Speaker 6: of the other meat prices. You know, if people can't

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Speaker 6: consume as much beef as they go for other kinds

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Speaker 6: of meat, and that tends to push up demand for

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Speaker 6: those as well, and their prices have risen. But I

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Speaker 6: don't see from all I hear, I don't see that

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Speaker 6: continuing at this extraordinary the strong rate of twelve percent.

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Speaker 2: There was a forecast out last week from the Bureau

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Speaker 2: for Economic Research indicating for the next three years, inflation

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Speaker 2: expectations are now much lower than they were previously. What

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Speaker 2: is leading to such muted inflation expectations? I mean it's

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Speaker 2: the next three years, if you look at that picture

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Speaker 2: that forecast is correct, are going to be completely different

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Speaker 2: from what we've seen over the last five or six

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Speaker 2: years now. I remember, and obviously COVID's been a big factor.

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Speaker 7: You're right.

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Speaker 6: One of the most important factors contributing towards this has

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Speaker 6: been the extraordinarily strong rand, not only against the US

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Speaker 6: dollar but against many other currencies, and this is helping

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Speaker 6: to suppress import prices. And the second big factor has

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Speaker 6: been the decline in international oil prices to their lowest

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Speaker 6: levels in five years now. The combination of these two

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Speaker 6: is helping to drive our own inflation down quite nicely,

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Speaker 6: and at as of now does not look as if

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Speaker 6: it's going to turn around anytime soon. What is helping

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Speaker 6: a lot at the moment. If you mentioned that in

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Speaker 6: one of your earlier bulletins, people haven't noticed that it's

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Speaker 6: not just God but especially platinum group metals prices, and

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Speaker 6: they are so much more important than gold nowadays. In

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Speaker 6: South Africa's export performance, which augu is extremely well for

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Speaker 6: a continued trade and current account balance being favorable and

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Speaker 6: supporting the value of the rand. And then on top

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Speaker 6: of that we've had the downward revision of the inflation

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Speaker 6: target that affects inflation expectations well.

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Speaker 2: Obviously the finance is to pick the right time or

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Speaker 2: the governor picked the right pick one. All of us

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Speaker 2: makes it easier and makes life a lot easier for

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Speaker 2: the Monetary Policy Committee. I've seen talk quite early on

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Speaker 2: actually possibly another cut in January, which you wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: thought at the start of this year.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I think it's possible that I wouldn't bank on

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Speaker 6: it at the moment. There's still quite a long way

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Speaker 6: to go to all the thirtieth of January, and I

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Speaker 6: would warn against one potential headwind against further interest rate cuts,

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Speaker 6: and that is if you have a sudden splurge of

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Speaker 6: inflation internationally, which is not impossible, and as the lagged

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Speaker 6: effects of the tariffs that were introduced by Donald Trump,

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Speaker 6: many would argue you have yet to be seen completely.

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Speaker 6: And in addition, what that could lead to is a

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Speaker 6: reversal in the current trend internationally to lower interest rates,

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Speaker 6: and you suddenly have the fear of higher interest rates,

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Speaker 6: stock markets collapse, you get a risk off environment, and

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Speaker 6: everyone scatters from risky investments such as those in South

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Speaker 6: Africa and the Randy scene as the benchmark and take

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Speaker 6: then would take a hammering. That's the possible downside, but

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Speaker 6: at the moment it's not obvious that it's all happened.

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Speaker 2: One of the other big factors with the design understandards

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Speaker 2: is what's been happening in China. Their export basically, their

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Speaker 2: internal market is not that strong. They're looking for they're

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Speaker 2: looking to export things. I mean, new car inflation in

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Speaker 2: South Africa I think is one point six percent I

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Speaker 2: saw the other day, And that's just one of the things,

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Speaker 2: one of the symptoms that we see. We still consume

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Speaker 2: a huge amount of goods made in China, and that

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Speaker 2: must be a factor. I have to say, I can't

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Speaker 2: see that changing certainly over the next year, maybe over

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Speaker 2: the next two to three years, but not for a

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Speaker 2: little while, and that must be a factor in this.

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Speaker 6: There's a lot of animosity starting to develop internationally towards

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Speaker 6: China because other countries are feeling the same thing. It's

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Speaker 6: helping to create a disinflationary environment in the short term,

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Speaker 6: but it is killing off manufacturing industries in many other countries,

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Speaker 6: and it's occurring mainly as a result of an artificial

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Speaker 6: intervention by the Chinese government to stabilize its exchange rate

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Speaker 6: against the dollar, which has weakened a lot. So what

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Speaker 6: we're seeing is not only are US products becoming cheaper,

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Speaker 6: but Chinese products are also becoming cheaper to officially because

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Speaker 6: of exchange rate movements.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Zarjamin, thanks very much, indeed, director and chief economists

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Speaker 2: at Econometrics. Fascinating to watch how decisions made by the

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Speaker 2: government in Beijing are having an impact on what you're

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Speaker 2: paying for a new car or many many other things

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Speaker 2: right now. Really does tell you how interconnected the world

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Speaker 2: has become and how certainly for the moment, I can't

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Speaker 2: see how you can turn the clock back, no matter

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Speaker 2: how hard some people might be trying to do that

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Speaker 2: at this moment. The Money Show twenty six minutes after

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Speaker 2: six Viv Governor's portfolio manager at RAND Swiss, Viv Good evening.

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Speaker 2: The Rand just seems to be roaring ahead and getting

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Speaker 2: stronger and stronger at the moment, and it's not just

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Speaker 2: against the dollar.

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Speaker 7: You know, I mean probably dollar is a big story,

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Speaker 7: but we are also you know, approaching a level to

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Speaker 7: keep at the rand versus the Euro, et cetera, and

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Speaker 7: as well as the pound. We book it through a

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Speaker 7: psychological nomot in that about seventeen in the fact that

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Speaker 7: we're also like you know, world below state twining to

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Speaker 7: the to the unized. Well, for instance, I think the

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Speaker 7: psychological level are going to mean that we might see

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Speaker 7: that are stronger for a bit longer.

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Speaker 2: The question of course is how far how long can

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Speaker 2: it go? Are there more things that are likely to

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Speaker 2: happen here that will strengthen us or is it really

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Speaker 2: now are we waiting? Are we in the hands of

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration?

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Speaker 7: Well, I mean, obviously short term the Trump Admistrasson is

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Speaker 7: going to make you know, obviously our line bit more

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Speaker 7: interesting that I'll say that. But longer term Wealiore asked,

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Speaker 7: we need to see our inmplation rates coming down a

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Speaker 7: bit more, you know, to inpatient today. But the tumultive

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Speaker 7: threeper said the captain to be net that will help

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Speaker 7: us long term to comity in strength also, you know,

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Speaker 7: boosting up our you know industry in terms exports et cetera.

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Speaker 7: But also just a extepting like the gold Press are

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Speaker 7: also going to help us out as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean our consumer inflation we saw it today, lower

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Speaker 2: than expected. Possibility have another interest rate cut next year.

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Speaker 7: If possible. But that being said, I mean our target

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Speaker 7: is called three percent, that it's about three uh, it's

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Speaker 7: Teoper said with like I wanted like a little bit

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Speaker 7: of leeweight either side. I do think that, you know,

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Speaker 7: the current environment, I probably would make sense to have

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Speaker 7: the is not you know, going out of the proportion.

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Speaker 7: We don't really have anykind of the mind presentation coming through.

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Speaker 7: But that being said, of course that it's going to

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Speaker 7: be quite you know, important for thoseerve by to maintain

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Speaker 7: its credibility for the new target.

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Speaker 2: In the US. I've been watching, I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: this is going to be a fascinating fight. The sort

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Speaker 2: of hostile takeover the board of Warner brother Brothers Discovery

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Speaker 2: today rejecting the offerts one hundred and eight billion ran

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Speaker 2: they're rejecting from Paramount Skydance. They prefer a full on

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Speaker 2: merger with Netflix, and they say that Paramount hasn't been

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Speaker 2: entirely honest. I mean, this is going to get nice

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Speaker 2: and rough.

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Speaker 7: Yeah. Look, it really is the case of two beheuman fighting.

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Speaker 7: One said, you have Netflix, which is the because you know,

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Speaker 7: streaming of the world. You know, out of course to

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Speaker 7: the YouTube use the scripted steaming services if you don't

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Speaker 7: qualify that. On the other side, you have you know,

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Speaker 7: as you said, the Skylines, which is basically run by

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Speaker 7: Larry Earth and the gay that's you know for the

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Speaker 7: founders of Orico his son. Uh. And you know there's

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Speaker 7: visual things in the world that like, i mean like

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Speaker 7: expensive with the son of Ry Ellison. But you know,

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Speaker 7: trying to buy or green bringwa against Netflix and is

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Speaker 7: one of those things. In terms of the deal. It

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Speaker 7: is quite interesting to see how exactly they're going to be,

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Speaker 7: you know, thinking about this, if you look at you know,

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Speaker 7: the streaming for like paid streaming services, Netflix is like

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Speaker 7: number one, uh. The HBO would be basically number three.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 7: And the combined number one of them three is obviously

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Speaker 7: going to talk you'll be talking about, you know, issues

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Speaker 7: with regards to monopoly. But if you look at you know,

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Speaker 7: in terms of streaming as a whole, including is like

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Speaker 7: YouTube and so on, and that suddenly you find that

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Speaker 7: Netrix is a far even the Netflix towards the HBO

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Speaker 7: hook cup, it will be a fast, smaller, competitive, and

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Speaker 7: the biggest beherien out there. That all depends on how

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Speaker 7: you're going to define this industry going forward. In one decide,

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Speaker 7: it is looking at like monopoly. The other side, it

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Speaker 7: looks like, you know, a tiny fraction of a much

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Speaker 7: larger industry.

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Speaker 2: I mean Oracle itself. That's down quite dramatically and not

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Speaker 2: us today, but over the last few days.

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Speaker 7: What triggered that, I think people have been worried about

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Speaker 7: just how much the AI leader stocks have around no

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Speaker 7: Oracle was suddenly it's a big rally when we started

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Speaker 7: new sort of about one of these deals that Opening

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Speaker 7: Air was doing. I mean remember all the while back

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Speaker 7: Open Air doing a multiple deal themly announced the deal,

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Speaker 7: suddenly got stuck to deal with would go up, and

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Speaker 7: few sut of look at the deal's more detailed. They

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Speaker 7: get a bit worried about what's exactly involved, you know,

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Speaker 7: because these are huge amount of money being spent on

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Speaker 7: future you know, research and development depictively, because the training

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Speaker 7: programs and yet the revenue streams don't seem to justify

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Speaker 7: them at the moment. At the same time, we see

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Speaker 7: the big behemos in the sector, especially Google Alphabet coming

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Speaker 7: out with you know, stead of the art models that

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Speaker 7: are accredited to open the eye. And whereas opening eye

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Speaker 7: it requires, you know, new investments come in and basically

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Speaker 7: go fund new research. You know, Google Alphabet basically has

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Speaker 7: this search bar, the ten du links, which is one

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Speaker 7: of the most profitable things in the world, generally hundreds

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Speaker 7: of billions of dollars the revenue really, so it's going

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Speaker 7: to be quite a question to whether I open it

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Speaker 7: can even succeed in that environment a little, whether not

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Speaker 7: they musically can have dose research at golpment dollars play

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Speaker 7: off the long run.

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Speaker 2: Weth Governor, thanks so much, portfolio manager at rand Swiss.

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Speaker 2: Really do appreciate it. It's just gone six thirty.

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Speaker 3: What up Stephen on seven two seven two one seven

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Speaker 3: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Well Richard getting in touch, saying Stephen is critical for

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Speaker 2: Essay to keep smelters open, to keep the economy modern.

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Speaker 2: South Africa is a positive story. We need to stop

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Speaker 2: the own goals and ideally talk Can you talk about

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Speaker 2: some of the political parties you believe the EFF and

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Speaker 2: MK who call so much negativity, all right, Richard, that

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Speaker 2: is your view. Look, I mean, I think it's a

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Speaker 2: complex thing. If you can keep the smelters open for

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Speaker 2: five years and you know that the situation is going

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Speaker 2: to change, you can spend twenty five billion round on

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Speaker 2: keeping that capacity. But over the next fifty years it's

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Speaker 2: going to make the money back, then fine, go for it.

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Speaker 2: The problem is, and that's why I asked for the question,

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Speaker 2: do you think we're going to see cheaper electricity in

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Speaker 2: the next five to ten years in South African The

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Speaker 2: answer is well, no, and certainly not cheaper than what

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Speaker 2: we're seeing in China. Now that's a very different equation.

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Speaker 2: At what point do you stop pouring money into it?

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Speaker 2: At the same time, there's so many other factors you

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Speaker 2: have to consider as well. I think it is a

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Speaker 2: very difficult issue. You have thought so seven two seven

434
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 2: oh two, one, seven oh two, seventeen minutes to seven.

435
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: That's on the Money Shows six to eight PM.

436
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: Well, one of the factors that's had a huge influence

437
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: in our economy through the years, what's been happening in

438
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: the US, which I suppose automatically leads to the question

439
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: what does the US economy do next year? And what

440
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 2: does that mean for you and I. He's at Wooden Dolls,

441
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 2: the investment strategist at Old Neutral. He's that good evening.

442
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: You suggest that most commentators are expecting a US economy

443
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: that's not too hot and not too cold. What's that

444
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 2: forecast based on? Why are you expecting that?

445
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 5: It's basically a continuation of what we've seen they say,

446
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 5: the second half of this year, and it's essentially a

447
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 5: story where although inflation is pretty high in America, I

448
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 5: don't think it necessarily gets any worse from here. And

449
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 5: you've seen economic growth despite all the chaos from the

450
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 5: Trump administration, the policy changes, the uncertainty and so on,

451
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 5: you've actually seen economic growth in the US hold up

452
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 5: pretty well. Indeed, global economic growth has held up pretty well.

453
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 5: Part of that story has been this big boom in

454
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 5: spending on artificial intelligence capacity. I think without that you

455
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 5: would have seen a very different picture. But that is

456
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 5: clearly going to continue, certainly into the you know, the

457
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 5: first half, probably the whole of the whole of next year.

458
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think if you don't, certainly, if you

459
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 5: look at what the stock market is telling you, it's

460
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 5: kind of a continuation of an economy that's not too hot,

461
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 5: not too gold. Obviously, there are risks both to the

462
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 5: upside and the downside.

463
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the risks would be the AI sector.

464
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: The other risk, of course is the Trump administration. So

465
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: much time and ink spent considering both of those risks,

466
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: and yet on balance things neither of those risks should

467
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: really materialize because the valuations of AI firms, their earnings

468
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: do both of the valuations.

469
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, Look, I think anything can happen the AI side.

470
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 5: You know, we might see tomorrow there's a new you know,

471
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 5: sort of version of deep Seek, or you know, some

472
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 5: competitor that up in the whole apple cart. But basically,

473
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 5: you know, this company is going to continue spending for

474
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 5: the foreseeable future, and you know those those checks have

475
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 5: already been signed and the you know, the money is

476
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 5: going to going to be spent. So that should sustain

477
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 5: that Kathics boom certainly for the next twelve months. The

478
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 5: big question, of course, I think is slightly longer than one,

479
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 5: which is whether all that spending will ultimately and a

480
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 5: decent return, you know, But that's not something that's going

481
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 5: to be answered early next year.

482
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: The US tariffs, I mean, there were so many predictions,

483
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: and I was expecting inflation to be slightly higher now

484
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: in the US as a result of these tariffs. You

485
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: point out that many firms may raise prices earlier in

486
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: the new year, but at some point, either the tariffs

487
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: need to have an impact on American inflation or we're

488
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: all wrong.

489
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 5: Well, what's what's happened up well now is that companies

490
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 5: have absorbed these tariffs for the most part in their margins.

491
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 5: So if you think about you know, a company can

492
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 5: either pay the tariff and keep the price that they

493
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 5: charge customers unchanged, or they can raise the price to

494
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 5: customers and try and pass on that tariff cost. And

495
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 5: so far it looks like obviously there are differences across

496
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 5: companies and sectors, but it looks like for the most part,

497
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 5: companies have.

498
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: Just absorbed these costs.

499
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: And maybe that is why we've seen so little employment growth.

500
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 5: Is maybe because is the saying, you know, we're not

501
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 5: going to we're to cut cost elsewhere, and you do

502
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 5: that by not growing your payroll. But yeah, you know,

503
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 5: so it is a big question for next year, you know,

504
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 5: do companies start increasing prices in response to these tariffs.

505
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 5: Do we see an acceleration of that trend. Bearing in

506
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 5: mind that tariffs impact imported goods, which is ultimately a

507
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 5: relatively small part of the inflation basket. The bigger part

508
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 5: of the inflation basket is services and should be unaffected

509
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 5: by by the import tariffs, and it is Finally, I

510
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 5: think the trend for tariffs over the next couple of

511
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 5: months is probably on the margin lower. I think as

512
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 5: you get pushed political pushback, you might even see the

513
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 5: Supreme Court limit Trump's ability to charge those tariffs. There

514
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 5: will be a big court case announcement I think in

515
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 5: the next month or two.

516
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 2: The independence of the US Federal Reserve. So obviously Trump's

517
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: been putting as much pressure as you can on them

518
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: to push rates lower. Is there a chance that there

519
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: is a big mistake there, or perhaps of what happened

520
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 2: during the next years in the early nineteen seventies where

521
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 2: he put pressure then on the US FED to keep

522
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: rates low and it took the US a long time

523
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: to recover from the stagflation that resulted. How worried are

524
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: you about that?

525
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 5: Again, that's probably a slightly longer term story. We will

526
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 5: get a new FED chairman in May. It will be

527
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 5: someone who the president thinks will do his bidding. But

528
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 5: of course whoever's the FED chair will probably outlast Trump.

529
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 5: You know, there will serve a term in office that

530
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 5: is that's going to be longer than Trumps, so they

531
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 5: will probably also think about kind of how history judges

532
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 5: them beyond the Trump term. And then of course the

533
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 5: US FED does have quite a decentralized structure, unlike our

534
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 5: Reserve Bank, for instance, where everybody reports into the governor

535
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 5: in the in the in the fair decisions are made

536
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,239
Speaker 5: by a combination of the board, which is appointed by

537
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 5: the President, and then the presidents of regional FED banks,

538
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 5: and those are not appointed by the by the White House.

539
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 5: So that decentralized structure does give you some sort of

540
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 5: continuity and some insulation from political pressure.

541
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: For our economy is not rarely growing. I think there's

542
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: a little bit of hope that it will grow a

543
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: bit more next year, but obviously the US economy is

544
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: still hugely important. At the same time, what's happening in

545
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: China lower cost goods coming in here, for example, is

546
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: starting to have well. I suppose in some ways a

547
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: bigger impact is the US economy as important to us

548
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: as it was, say two or three years ago. In

549
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: some ways it doesn't feel like it is.

550
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 5: It really depends whether you're asking from the point of

551
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 5: view of the economy in other words, businesses that are

552
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 5: exporting or importing, versus whether you are an investor and

553
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 5: talking about financial markets, because if you're talking about financial

554
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 5: markets in the US remains extremely important. Whatever happens with

555
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 5: the feed, whatever happens with US stock prices, whatever happens

556
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 5: with the dollar, massively important. Talking about the economy and

557
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 5: our exposure, our exposure that our businesses have to the US,

558
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 5: it's not as as great as it has been. I

559
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 5: think we will. You know, we do depend a lot

560
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 5: in China. We also obviously export a lot to Europe,

561
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 5: and a lot of it is about our own policy

562
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 5: decisions and how our consumers are doing and so on.

563
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 5: So yeah, so when it comes to the real economy,

564
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 5: we are not as exposed to the US, although it

565
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 5: remains important. And you know, so for instance, we do

566
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 5: want to see progress in trade talks. We do want

567
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 5: to potentially st be included in a goa, et cetera.

568
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 5: And as you point out, you know, I think the

569
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 5: issue of Chinese exports, because Chinese exports to the US

570
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 5: have plunged but have grown to the rest of the world,

571
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 5: and so all all countries, including South Africa are now

572
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 5: wondering what do we do about this, this this wall

573
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 5: of Chinese exports of coming our way? And how do

574
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 5: you respond to it? Do we do what Trump does

575
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 5: and you put up pariffs or is it a different

576
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 5: way of approaching us.

577
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: It's a complex a very technical issue is at WERTANDHL

578
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: Thank you investment strategies. Adult neutral really do appreciate the

579
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: time in a moment, how your ATM is going to

580
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: change nine minutes to seven.

581
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 8: The money show is Steven Rutez is brought to you

582
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 8: by ABSIR c IB proud sole leader Ranger and Infrastructure

583
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 8: Finance Structuring Agent of the South African National Treasury is

584
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 8: eleven point eight billion rare Infrastructure and Development Finance Bond.

585
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if you have a particular ATM

586
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: you like to go to, maybe because it's your particular bank.

587
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: I can think of one shopping center near me. I

588
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: like to go there quite often if I don't draw

589
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: that amount of that large amounts of cash anymore, but

590
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: whenever I do, I'll kind of factor it into whenever

591
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: I'm going there, and that's what I'll do. And one

592
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: of the reasons is because it is from my bank.

593
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: And all of that is going to change because now

594
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank is going to bring in a system

595
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: where one company will manage all of the ATMs. It

596
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: won't matter where you draw your money. For Deep Maharaj

597
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: as the executive director of the Payment Ecosystem Modernization Program

598
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: at the Reserve Bank. Deep, good evening, thank you for

599
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: your time. So at the moment, the major banks have

600
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: their own ATMs and they use other ATMs through a network.

601
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: So they're red ones and blue ones and white ones

602
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: and different colored ATMs. You can draw money at most

603
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: of them, but only one of them will give you

604
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: a really good price to do that. How is this

605
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: going to change, Steven.

606
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 9: We're looking to introduce a utility function for cash so

607
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 9: that we can make cash more affordable. We could be

608
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 9: cash more accessible and we can provide cash through through

609
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 9: selected vendors that are all accredited orline sensed. And as

610
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 9: far as ATMs are concerned, we are looking to roll

611
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 9: out as part of this utility function, white label ATMs,

612
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 9: which means that all of the ATM infrastructure of the

613
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 9: country will be taken over by the utility and provided

614
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 9: with the white River, which means that, as you're likely

615
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 9: pointed out, only one ATM would charge you at a

616
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 9: low cost. Now all the ATMs would be at the

617
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 9: same price almost zero to the end user, in low

618
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 9: cost to the participants providing with that service.

619
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: So then who who actually is going to own them?

620
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: Who's going to service them?

621
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 9: We are proposing that all of the ATMs go into

622
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 9: a utility, so a cash utility company will be set up.

623
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 9: All of the ATM infrastructure will be brought into it,

624
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 9: as with all cash centers around the country, centers where

625
00:33:52,560 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 9: cash is deposited, with the deposited processed, research related or

626
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 9: would drawn from circulation. All this we believe should go

627
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 9: into utility and would be shared infrastructure, which means that

628
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 9: we could rationalize infrastructure. We can ensure the infrastructure is

629
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 9: in the right places for where they would demand for cases,

630
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 9: and so doing reduce the movement of cash between these

631
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 9: centers and ATMs and ultimately bring on the cost of

632
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 9: servicing the end user.

633
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 2: So this utility would take over property, so ATM machines

634
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: cash distribution centers that are currently owned by private companies

635
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: by banks.

636
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 9: Both largely by banks but also by a whole range

637
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 9: of other players fidelity, there's cash Express that provides ATM

638
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 9: infrastructure that is not owned by banks.

639
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: Are the banks being forced to do this? I mean,

640
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 2: if a bank wanted to, could it keep its own ATM.

641
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 9: You know, we believe that we'd make a compelling argument

642
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 9: for them to bring it into our utility function. However,

643
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 9: you want to keep it separate, you know at this

644
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 9: point as part of our discussions and say, well, maybe

645
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 9: we'll consider that. However, for any customer using it, it

646
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 9: will still be the same cost as if you're using

647
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 9: it a white lable ATM and doing so, then there

648
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 9: is no real value for them to hold on to

649
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 9: that ATM infrastructure.

650
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so so prettep, I completely I support what you're doing,

651
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 2: but let me just make the arguments to be contrary

652
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: and paid to be contrary. Isn't it wrong that someone

653
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: could own a facility in ATM they charge a certain

654
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: amount for people to use the service, and now they

655
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: would be forced to charge less than that because of

656
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: a policy change by the Reserve Bank.

657
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 9: Yes, that's true, they wouldn't be forced to do so

658
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 9: what we are doing is so let's put into context,

659
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 9: we spend as a country around the ball any year

660
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 9: still producing, storing, distributing, and destroying banknotes through all of

661
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 9: this infrastructure. In doing so, we then the end cost

662
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 9: to the user is about ninety billion are If we

663
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 9: don't reduce the fixed cost element of the infrastructure and

664
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 9: reduced the movement of cash between all of these centers

665
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 9: and the end users, then we don't impact on the

666
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 9: cost to the end user. And so what we are

667
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 9: looking to do is bring down that cost. Now we're

668
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 9: doing something that the banks did a long time ago.

669
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 9: They came together, the four banks came together, developed a

670
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 9: shared function between them for cash. What they did was

671
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 9: they rationalized their cast centers all into this utility it's

672
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 9: called SPV today, right, And so the banks saw that

673
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 9: there's a lot of shared infrastructure that could produce the

674
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 9: cost to them of providing the service to their to

675
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 9: their clients and their customers, and so that's why they did. However,

676
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 9: the market has changed quite dramatically, sure, and that model

677
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 9: where they have SPD which is largely set up to

678
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 9: service them, but now as the service all of the

679
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 9: all the careers in the market starts to become quite

680
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 9: a challenge, sure, and that that is what we want

681
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 9: to do, create infrast service to everyone.

682
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: So so at the moment, the model that we have

683
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: which has really been driven by by the motive for profit,

684
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: which is one of the reasons why if you go

685
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: to a shopping center and a rich part of a

686
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: rich suburb, you'll find so many ATMs. Each bank will

687
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: have one because they all make a little bit of

688
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: money each time someone withdraws. Now, the negative consequence is

689
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: that in smaller rural areas you may have no ATMs. Okay,

690
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: that the will the incentive to build as to keep

691
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 2: as many ATMs as there are now be as strong.

692
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: In other words, could a consequence of this mean that

693
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: there will be fewer ATMs because there will be less

694
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: money being made from running the ATM.

695
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 9: Because it could be a utility function provided for public

696
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 9: good without a profit motive to do that. We could

697
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 9: then rationalize the ATM infrastructure, the concentration of ATMs and

698
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 9: shopping centers. In some garages we have four ATMs alongside

699
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 9: each other, you know, we could then rationalize that take

700
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 9: away three of them at the garage, or we leave

701
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 9: one because that's what's needed to serve those customers and

702
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 9: move those three to areas where it is not available today,

703
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 9: so we don't have to reduce the normal of ATMs.

704
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 9: We can redistribute the current data infrastructure into areas where

705
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 9: they are it is underserved today. Every such can travels

706
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 9: forty just get cash in the r is not far more.

707
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 9: In some townships like alex they travel a lot more

708
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 9: than we would if you living in Santin can't be right.

709
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: We will all just that pret deep. It's a fascinating process.

710
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Predep Maharaj is the executive director

711
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: of the Payment Ecosystem Modernization Program. At seven o'clock.

712
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven

713
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: o two nets walk Little.

714
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Critis is brought to you

715
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: by Abscess CIB Proud Sole Lead Arrangement Infrastructure Finance Structuring

716
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: Agent of the South African National Treasuries eleven point eight

717
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: billion Round Infrastructure and Development Finance Bond eight minutes after

718
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: seven twenty to come. In the next little while, we'll

719
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: speak to Graham Codrington. He of course looks at the

720
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: future in business unusual. We're looking at the enhanced games. Essentially,

721
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: this is not the usual thing where you get to

722
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: watch Stephen going very slowly on a buy. This is

723
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: where someone puts goodness knows Whatton to Stephen and then

724
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: gives them a bicycle and we see what happens. And

725
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: that is I suppose going to lead to all sorts

726
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: of questions, lots of things to look at. There. Wendy Nola,

727
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: your consumer Ninja's been looking at banks, among other things.

728
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: In the last week. I noticed you may want to

729
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: google Wendy Nola luggage and airlines and see what response

730
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 2: you get. Could be worth the read. But she's also

731
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: been looking. She's also looking at the National Bank, the

732
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 2: Financial Ombit. They've been telling banks, forcing banks in fact,

733
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: to pay back sixty million rand to consumers, even though

734
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: some of those consumers gave him private information to scam artists.

735
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 2: And then don't forget your shape shift tonight, Lee Nike

736
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: SEO of Trance Union Africa. He's been driving digital transformation

737
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: in many different ways and that industry is fascinating at

738
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: the moment. So looking forward to that conversation from seven

739
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: point thirty.

740
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: What's up Stephen on seven two seven oh two one

741
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 3: seven two.

742
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: So I am completely and utterly looking forward to what

743
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: I think is going to be a massive fight in

744
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: the United States over Warner Brothers Discovery. So, first of all,

745
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: there was the offer from Netflix to do a complete

746
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: merger with Warner Brothers Discovery. They offered a price of

747
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: around seventy six billion round. Then Paramount skid On said no, no, no,

748
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: we'll buy you FO one hundred and eight billion dollars. Now,

749
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: the board of Warner Brothers Discovery saying not only do

750
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 2: we reject you, Paramount, but also then saying that, in fact,

751
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 2: we don't want to We don't want to have anything

752
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: to do with you, because you've been lying about your finances,

753
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: you've been misleading our shareholders. And what I love about

754
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: this is when the tone goes negative in this particular way,

755
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: well then things are going to start happening, and I

756
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: think that is going to get interesting. In other words,

757
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: it becomes personal. And when it becomes personal, that is

758
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 2: when the inevitable I presume show Max mini series started

759
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: to get going on this merger, and we start to

760
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: see exactly how it's going to be, how personal the

761
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: main characters in it, and how angry they are with

762
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 2: each other, kind of strangely looking forward to it seven

763
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 2: two with Stephens.

764
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 3: Email him on Stephen at seven O two dot co dot.

765
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: Z Well Graham Quadrington the lead researcher tomorrow today the

766
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: Futures Institute looking He's with us in the studio at Graham.

767
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: Good evening. You've been looking ahead to some of the

768
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 2: sporting events next year. Now I'm a cricket fan of football,

769
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 2: but the world's first Enhanced Games. How do they actually work?

770
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 4: Well?

771
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 10: I thought that as we got to the end of

772
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 10: the year we could just do something a little bit

773
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 10: different from a business perspective, But I find this exceptionally interesting.

774
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 10: We've got all sorts of major sporting events coming up,

775
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 10: obviously football World Cup headlining next year.

776
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: But I spotted a group of people in Las Vegas.

777
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 10: Who are putting together in May twenty twenty six something

778
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 10: called the Enhanced Games. It's just a few sprints one

779
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 10: hundred meters two hundred meters in swimming as well, also

780
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 10: a few of those and in a bit of powerlifting.

781
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 10: So it's not a massive Olympic sport. But here's the

782
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 10: secret source and source I suppose is what it is,

783
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 10: because what they are saying is you can take any

784
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 10: drugs you like, nothing that is illegal, so it must

785
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 10: be something that you can technically get, but it is

786
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 10: you know, illegal for any sports person to have taken

787
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 10: in the past. And the point behind this is to

788
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 10: say every sports event is looking to see how far

789
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 10: you can push the human body, you know, further, faster, higher,

790
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 10: whatever it is, and why not do it enhanced by

791
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 10: science and allow people who are prepared to do whatever

792
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 10: that does to somebody's body, allow them to do it

793
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 10: to themselves and see what happens. And there's a lot

794
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 10: of money behind it. It looks like it's going to

795
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 10: grab a lot of interest to globally. And I must

796
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 10: be honest as a sports fan. As long as it's declared,

797
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 10: I wouldn't want drugs to come into other sports. But

798
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 10: if there's a drug filled sports event, I don'd probably

799
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 10: pay to watch it.

800
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: And I suppose the question is why, because I think

801
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: what we think of is what we want in a contest,

802
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: is we want it to be fair. You want to

803
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: r you know, you hate it when the when the

804
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: ref is biased in a football match. I mean you

805
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: lose your mind, even if you're on the winning side

806
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: of that. You don't you don't like it, So so

807
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: I suppose the attraction would be are we going to

808
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: get human stories out of it? Because that's what really

809
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: sells these things? And are we going to see much

810
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 2: better performances? And in this world of athletics, we're talking,

811
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: you know, microseconds. I suppose that's the question, right, And

812
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: until you give it a go, you don't know. And

813
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: I think that's at least the promoters are. That's the

814
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: way they approaching it, right, So they're not trying to

815
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: say all sports should go this way. And I think

816
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: part of that is for fairness. But then having said that, Steven,

817
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: I think you and I both, if we could, we

818
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: might have been professional sports people. I know you have

819
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: sports back, yes, exactly exactly. If they need me, I'll

820
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: do it right. But it's not fair that I was

821
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 2: born without the genetics to do that. So fairness is

822
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: an interesting gray area to start with. Those who have

823
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: heightened weight advantages or muscle density advantages. Yes, of course

824
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: there's years and years of discipline and everything else that

825
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: goes on top of that, but that underlying genetic advantage

826
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: is there to start with, and it's not fair. So

827
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: if it isn't fair, why don't we It is, why

828
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: don't we just have another category, not a category that

829
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: overtakes the existing categories, but another category of people who say, well,

830
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 2: let's see what my genetic inheritance and my discipline and

831
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: a little bit of science and chemicals and everything else

832
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 2: can do. And I would suggest that by the end

833
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: of this decade we'll probably see the robotic enhanced games

834
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: in addition to them, because again I would pay to

835
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: see somebody strap on, you know, an exoskeleton and you know,

836
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: jump thirty meters in the air, or you know, maybe

837
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: jetpack around the stadium instead of run. So I do

838
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 2: think that this is something which opens some interesting new

839
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: sporting opportunities and maybe that's the way to think about

840
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: it best. These are new sports rather than sort of

841
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: us drugging up the old sports. So if you look

842
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 2: at football players as great as a example both here

843
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: and say in the in the Premier League, by which

844
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: I mean in the UK, you obviously you end up

845
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: measuring them on certain things, right, So obviously it's its

846
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: goals and that, But what you're actually measuring are their

847
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 2: genetic ability, So are they good with their feet? You're

848
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: measuring their fitness you're measuring where they were born and

849
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 2: whether they were scouted early, and whether they started classes.

850
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at Beckham from when was

851
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: he three younger than that? Or was it too late

852
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: and was it only four or five? You're also I

853
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 2: would argue, measuring so to your point, the desire to win,

854
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 2: how far will you go? And I mean in many societies,

855
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: including our own in particular, it's the sort of football's

856
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: a way out of your reality into something else, right,

857
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 2: So people have that strong desire and you could argue

858
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: that's why the spring Bucks will win World Cups. So

859
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: if you put all of those things together, how far

860
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 2: are you prepared to go to win?

861
00:47:59,640 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 7: Well?

862
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: There, and obviously someone who's prepared to take a drug

863
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 2: is willing to go further, and why not them?

864
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 10: And I suppose this is where there will be some

865
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 10: form of ethical conversation because we want to look after

866
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 10: other human beings. We don't want anybody to put themselves

867
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 10: in a situation where they are destroying themselves for the

868
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 10: sake of some achievement. But then, you know, I look

869
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 10: at some of the top sportsmen in the world right now,

870
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 10: and let's assume that they are all drug free, because

871
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 10: that's they get tested so regularly. They push themselves beyond

872
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 10: what I would think a human being can be pushed,

873
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 10: and you know, in their forties and fifties, I'm sure

874
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 10: they pay the price for it. And you know, every

875
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 10: time I watch one of these rugby games these days,

876
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 10: with the brutality of a modern rugby in particular, I mean,

877
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 10: that's got to feel sore when you're fifty five years old. Yeah,

878
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 10: you know, twenty years after your retirement, you've still got

879
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 10: a few every one of those crunching tackles. So I

880
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 10: think that even without this enhancement, people are pushing themselves,

881
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 10: maybe beyond what the human body is capable of. All

882
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 10: you're doing now is you're adding a chemical that helps

883
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 10: you to go just that extra step further, and I

884
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 10: honestly am fascinated.

885
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: To see what it can do. It's also not the

886
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 2: first time it's happened. I'm doing all of this from memory.

887
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 2: I haven't gone to check it, but if I recall

888
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 2: there were for a very long time, it might still

889
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 2: be a very large number of women's athletics records held

890
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 2: by East German yes from the nineteen eighties. I'm presuming

891
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 2: that happened yet to be broken, and we all know

892
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 2: why because they were given something that were given I'm

893
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 2: presuming something similar to testosterone or something like that. And so,

894
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: in a strange way, history is actually repeating itself. Yeah,

895
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: except that this is fairer because you know it's happening, and.

896
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 10: It's declared, and it's open, and it's and it's above board,

897
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 10: I suppose in that sense above and for me as

898
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 10: I look ahead to my sporting year in twenty twenty six,

899
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 10: this isn't going to be the highlight enhance things, but

900
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 10: I am going to watch it with a little bit

901
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 10: of interest. It's something different, and I'm sure the business

902
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 10: case behind it is what's really driving it. There's a

903
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 10: lot of money at stake, twenty five million dollars in

904
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 10: prize money for people who prepared to put their bodies

905
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 10: at risk. But I'm sure we'll see a lot of

906
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 10: it on our socials and around the place in the media.

907
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 10: It's a huge story, I think.

908
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 2: Graham Codrington, thank you so much, the futurists and partner

909
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 2: tomorrow today and thank you for everything on The Money

910
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 2: Show this year. Nineteen minutes after seven.

911
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 3: Two, Stephen is one x at at Stephen.

912
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: Well, we were talking about ATMs just a few moments ago,

913
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: and I was making the point about, you know, where

914
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 2: the banks would be allowed to have their own ATMs.

915
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: What's up coming through Good Evening SG. It always starts

916
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 2: as something for the greater good until they ban you

917
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: from withdrawing for some reason. That's actually an interesting point

918
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: because at the moment your right to withdraw cash can't

919
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: be taken away because there is competition. The moment that

920
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 2: you have one utility that is the only utility that

921
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 2: allows you to withdraw cash, it does get a lot

922
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: easier to do that. I hadn't thought that the start

923
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: of a science fiction story, perhaps something to make us think.

924
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 2: Nineteen minutes after seven.

925
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: The Money show Consumer Ninja.

926
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: Well, time of course to find out what our consumer ninja,

927
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 2: your consumer Ninja, I should say, Wendy Nola has been

928
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: looking at and Wendy the National Financial ombered telling banks

929
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: they have to refund a total of sixty million Rand

930
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 2: two customers this year. Has quite a lot of money. Actually,

931
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: there was a bit of an increase in the sector.

932
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 2: What's the most common form of bank fraud? What have

933
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: people been complaining about?

934
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 11: Okay, so most of that, sixty million went to well

935
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 11: related to cell phone banking and mainly intellect banking fraud.

936
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 11: Most of the planes around fraud, and I see this

937
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 11: in Mountain Box as well. Forty percent of all cases

938
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 11: are fraud related, fifteen percent more than last year. So

939
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 11: according to the South African Fraud Prevention Service, the main

940
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 11: form of bank fraud is fishing. For it's voice phishing.

941
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 11: So basically, the scammers call up people, they have all

942
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 11: their banking info, they pretend to be from their bank,

943
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 11: pretend that there's some fraudulent transaction about to happen, and

944
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 11: then they trick them into giving them. The scammers their

945
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 11: pins and other forms of ID verification, which then enables

946
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 11: them to go into their accounts, empty them and even worse,

947
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 11: even run up their overdrafts and their credit cards to

948
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 11: the max, so they not only lose a whole lack

949
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 11: of money, but they now have acquired substantial debt. And

950
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 11: the main reason why people fall for it is because

951
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 11: the caller, the scammer, has a lot of information pertaining

952
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 11: to their bank accounts, their numbers, even you know, what

953
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 11: transactions they've made and that sort of thing. And that's

954
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 11: because sadly, all of us who credit active, our details

955
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 11: have been compromised in various major breaches and the dark web.

956
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 11: It's all there, but they still of have to phone

957
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 11: us to get up and some passwords, and so it's

958
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 11: not what people assume that it's an inside job because

959
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 11: the caller knew all the information. And that's the saddest thing,

960
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 11: because people fall for that and believe they know so much.

961
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 11: It must be my bank.

962
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 2: So then I suppose if it happened to me, so

963
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: someone phones and because I may be a bit confused,

964
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 2: or because I fall for it, I give them the information.

965
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 2: The argument from the banks would be, now, well, Stephen

966
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 2: was the one who compromised the security. We've told them

967
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: never to do that, and he did. So that's the

968
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 2: case then, and I'm asking for a friend. Why would

969
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: the input then say, actually another bank is liable. How

970
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: has that happened?

971
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 11: Okay, So that's a really good question, because it is

972
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 11: true that if you release the so called keys to

973
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 11: your safe to a scammer unwortually, of course, then you

974
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 11: allow the banks not But in some cases the ONOD

975
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 11: would argue that the victim fell under the vulnerable person category,

976
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 11: and in these cases it's usually elderly, and that they

977
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 11: should be given a partial refund for that reason. And

978
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 11: in other cases, and this is the interesting bit. While

979
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 11: the account hold it did fall for the scam, they

980
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 11: raised the alarm really quickly, and the bank didn't act

981
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 11: fast enough to safeguard their funds. So I know, from

982
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 11: the moment you make the call, the bank is then

983
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 11: liable if them obviously, if the funds haven't already left.

984
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 11: And then in my experience, the banks often offer someone

985
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 11: a fifty percent refund as a good will gesture that said,

986
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 11: we don't have to because you compromise the security of

987
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 11: your account, but as a good will gesture, here's fifty percent,

988
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 11: but on condition you don't share that on social media

989
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 11: or with any journalists. And it's really frustrating because then

990
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 11: I can't investigate, you know, take up the case.

991
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's very rough. I mean, the idea of

992
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 2: paying for silence is so interesting.

993
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 3: More and more.

994
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's bizarre. What's the best way? I mean? I

995
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 2: mean I think I look at people I know or

996
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: and I just think, God, what are they going to

997
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 2: do if someone phones them?

998
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 7: You know?

999
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 2: How do you make sure that this doesn't happen to you.

1000
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 2: You don't become a vishing victim, in other words, a

1001
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: victim of someone who does it over the phone, who

1002
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 2: phones you.

1003
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 11: Okay, I don't want to go into There's lots of advice,

1004
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 11: but the main one is be suspicious, very very suspicious

1005
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 11: about call callers claiming to be from your bank, or

1006
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 11: anyone wanting you to comply with any instructions pertending to

1007
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 11: your bank account. Sometimes it's about oh, we're going to

1008
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 11: get cheap air fies, and the personnel pops up on

1009
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 11: your phone says, switch to video when it takes you

1010
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 11: to how you're going to get your DStv awards or

1011
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 11: your cheap edic because or whatever the case may be,

1012
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 11: and then switch to video and they can get your image.

1013
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 11: And you don't think it's anything to do with your bank,

1014
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 11: because I don't mention your bank, but that's how they

1015
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 11: get into your bank account.

1016
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: So just say goodbye.

1017
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 11: Then check with your bank if it's a bank, If

1018
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 11: someone claiming to be from your bank, check with them

1019
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 11: via the number that you have pre saved in your contacts.

1020
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 11: I don't go on any number that you called from,

1021
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 11: just to check one hundred percent sure that it isn't fraud,

1022
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 11: but ninety nine point nine percent of cases it was

1023
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 11: a scammer and they're very happy that you said god

1024
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 11: bye and phoned and checked yeah okay.

1025
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 2: And so this was this was a big part of

1026
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 2: the sixty million round that the umbut said bank customers

1027
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 2: had to be repaid. There are other types of fraud, right.

1028
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, there, well there are other well, so there are

1029
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 11: other kinds of fraud. But the but and while they

1030
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 11: made up the bulk of that sixty million rand, it

1031
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 11: was ordered to be put back in the customers pockets.

1032
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 11: They also make awards and I love this in cases

1033
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 11: of banks not providing adequate service, so ignoring their customers,

1034
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 11: stalling on refunds, providing inaccurate almost leading info, all that

1035
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 11: kind of thing. It's it's not treating customers feeling, you know,

1036
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 11: that's an instruction from Treasury. Treating customers feel has been

1037
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 11: a big thing for a while now.

1038
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:58,399
Speaker 4: That now.

1039
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 11: So if it happened to you and you feel your

1040
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 11: bank really treated you with disrespect, you should not your

1041
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 11: complaint with the Banking Division of the NFO. You've got

1042
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 11: nothing to lose. I would just say bear in mind

1043
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 11: though that the amount I look at some of these

1044
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 11: the amounts, the amount that the umbud considers to be

1045
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 11: appropriate compensation for what you went through is in most

1046
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 11: cases likely to be just a fraction of the.

1047
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 3: Amount that you have in mind.

1048
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 11: But still there's a lot of satisfaction in getting the

1049
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 11: bank to pay you for treating you badly. They also

1050
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 11: argued successfully for repossessed rather cars to be returned to

1051
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 11: their owners, for the writing off of debt in some cases,

1052
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 11: in many cases where the debt had prescribed so it's

1053
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 11: been dormant for three years and the banks know they

1054
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 11: shouldn't be chasing it, but they still do. They've called

1055
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 11: out banks for overcharging interest and also had property auctions halted.

1056
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 11: So all of those things made up that sixty million

1057
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 11: that they awarded this year. But as I said, the

1058
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 11: bulk of it though, was around fraud cases.

1059
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 2: The other people who who they give they give banks

1060
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 2: their person in for their apply for a loan. Then

1061
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 2: they say the bank is guilty of reckless lending. I mean,

1062
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: what's the on but saying on that okay.

1063
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 11: So there was a bit of a warning in the

1064
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 11: statement that they put out this week, and that is

1065
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 11: you've got to provide truthful information when applying for credit.

1066
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 11: So the but said they often receive complaints where consumers

1067
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 11: alleged that banks have granted them credit recklessly. Right, so

1068
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 11: you know, the credit Act requires them to do their

1069
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,959
Speaker 11: affordability checks and all the rest, and if they didn't,

1070
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 11: they can be forced to, you know, write off the

1071
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 11: debt if found to have indulged in reckless lending. But

1072
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 11: the says, when they investigate some of these cases, it's

1073
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 11: becomes clear that the consumers themselves provided information to the

1074
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 11: banks that was not entirely true, so it was sort

1075
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 11: of padding how much they earn and reducing what the

1076
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 11: expenses were, whatever the case may be, and the consequences

1077
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 11: for doing that can be severe, not just you know,

1078
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 11: not a reckless lending case, but you know, there could

1079
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 11: be legal consequences as well, and you could also have

1080
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 11: the black mark against you in the financial services industry

1081
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 11: for what they call moral risk. So you're likely not

1082
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 11: to tell the truth in other ways as well, So

1083
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 11: definitely one to be avoided.

1084
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 2: Wendy Nola, thank you. I really appreciate the time and

1085
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 2: thank you for all of your help this year. As

1086
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: our consumer Ninja tell me, if I wanted to carry

1087
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 2: something exotic in my luggage armuch of it would I

1088
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 2: be allowed to take?

1089
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 11: So I did a story for News twenty four asked

1090
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 11: all the airlines, you know, what would you like your

1091
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 11: customers to know in this busy peak traveling season and

1092
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 11: they all responded with various things, but the most intriguing

1093
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 11: was so I forget Airways, who, among its many pieces

1094
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 11: of advice, said we've checked with the law and just

1095
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 11: to let our passengers know that you as long as

1096
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 11: it's less than five grams, you can bring your cannabis

1097
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 11: on board.

1098
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 2: So you go, best way to go in the sky Hian,

1099
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 2: Wendy Nola, thank you very much. Indeed, have a good

1100
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 2: rest of the yen real Chat soon, Wendy. You know

1101
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 2: Lee your consumer Ninja on The Money Show, The Money

1102
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 2: Show shape Shift is well, there's some companies that really

1103
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 2: do touch you in many different ways without you necessarily

1104
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 2: knowing it. One of them, I would argue is Trance

1105
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 2: Union Africa. I suppose the best way to describe it

1106
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: might be a credit Buriait as many other things as well,

1107
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 2: and your shape Shifter tonight is their CEO. Lee Nike. Lee,

1108
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 2: good evening, Thanks so much for joining us tonight. I

1109
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 2: really appreciate you taking the time on the Money Show

1110
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 2: this Wednesday evening.

1111
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 12: Good evening, Stein, and thank you for having me.

1112
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 2: I do want to start at the very beginning, and

1113
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 2: the earliest that I could find online was that you

1114
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 2: started with the BS in computer science at the University

1115
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 2: of Quazilnotel from from nineteen ninety five. And I wanted

1116
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: to start by asking you if that's the part of

1117
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 2: the country that you had originally come from, if we

1118
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 2: had to travel there to study.

1119
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 12: Well, absolutely, I actually grew up in Chatsworth in Durban

1120
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 12: in South Africa.

1121
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 13: So I actually grew up there, and I mean moved

1122
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 13: to Johannesburg when I got my first job back with

1123
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 13: Anderson Consulting.

1124
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 2: What kind of community were you growing up in? I

1125
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: mean Chatsworth has a particular history in South Africa, particularly

1126
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 2: in Ettequini in Durban. And what kind of family were

1127
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: you coming from? What were you thinking of doing as

1128
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 2: you were growing up?

1129
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 13: Well, it's a really good and complex questions even I

1130
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 13: guess the first thing to say is that I grew

1131
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 13: up in quite an impoverished community in Chatsworth, like many townships.

1132
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 12: In apartheid South Africa, and I grew up in a

1133
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 12: time of a parthe eight. So that's the first point.

1134
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 13: The second point is that if you grew up in

1135
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 13: a tough neighborhood where crime poverty is an extreme, it

1136
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 13: typically falls to the mother in your househ ord to

1137
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 13: keep you on the straight and arrow. My house was

1138
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 13: quite a regiment of going to school, doing his studies

1139
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 13: and keeping out of mischief, and in the end you

1140
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 13: end up becoming a lot academically stronger. And I always

1141
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 13: remember my mom keeping us in that straight and narrow

1142
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 13: and that big view was the only way to break

1143
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 13: out of your circumstance of being grown up in poverty

1144
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 13: is to study and hope that you'll get a scholarship

1145
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 13: to go on to university. She did something quite interesting, Stephen.

1146
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 13: I grew up in a time of no heroes. So

1147
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 13: born in nineteen seventy six, which is an important here

1148
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 13: in our history, graduating from high school in ninety four

1149
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 13: important here in our democracy.

1150
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 12: But when I was growing up.

1151
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 13: We actually didn't know any hero So any person that

1152
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 13: was your role model was your mom, and in my case,

1153
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 13: your mom kind of reminded you the consequences of not

1154
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 13: studying and working hard, was ending up in the township

1155
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 13: and never breaking out of the potential that you may

1156
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 13: see in yourself. So that allowed me, Stephen, to break

1157
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 13: out and actually obtain a scholar to go on to university,

1158
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 13: without which we wouldn't have been able to afford to

1159
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 13: fund my further studies.

1160
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that time, and there's just a

1161
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,919
Speaker 2: one year's age difference between you and I. I'm slightly older,

1162
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 2: and I was lucky enough for my teenage years because

1163
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 2: of the very different suburbs that I grew up in.

1164
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: My father had a personal computer at home, and while

1165
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: I never really thought of going into it, I was

1166
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 2: lucky enough to play around with it. I mean, what

1167
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 2: else are you going to do while he's at work?

1168
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 3: Right?

1169
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 2: And I was thinking about how difficult it must have

1170
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: been to go from Chatsworth to Straighten too computer science,

1171
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 2: when I mentioned the opportunities for you to do the

1172
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 2: same were incredibly limited.

1173
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 13: Well, it's really interesting, and I'll tell you a story

1174
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 13: that very few people don't know about me. So when

1175
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 13: I was in Grade three or Standard one, as you

1176
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 13: and I both would know from our childhoods.

1177
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 12: I had the chance.

1178
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 13: When computers were first introduced to the teachers of Chatsworth.

1179
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 13: This is literally in the foremost years of our schooling careers,

1180
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 13: and I guess I was smarter than a lot of

1181
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 13: kids in my school. But I remember a very specific

1182
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 13: day back in Standard one or grade three where a

1183
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 13: minibus taxi picked up kids from all the schools in

1184
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 13: Chatsworth and busters over to the chats With Teacher's Training

1185
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 13: Center and seven for the first time in my life,

1186
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 13: I saw this thing that was called a computer, something

1187
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 13: you were familiar with, I guess, but it was this,

1188
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 13: you know, this big monster of a monochrome on it

1189
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 13: with black and green. And more interestingly, they had shown

1190
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 13: us a teaching tool called a logo robot.

1191
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 2: I was going to say, surely tell me it was logo.

1192
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 2: I remember it so well, absolutely so.

1193
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 13: We had a logo robot on the floor and this

1194
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 13: is a person that you know, we bare had enough

1195
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 13: to make ends meet and school was walking to school

1196
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 13: every day.

1197
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 12: And all we did was what we did.

1198
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 13: So for this one day, Stephen, we got to on

1199
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 13: a weekend go after the Teacher's Training Center and we

1200
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 13: got to type in you know, left command five steps

1201
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 13: forward and he heard the.

1202
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 12: Logo robot moved on the floor. And that's interesting because

1203
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 12: that was a grade three.

1204
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 13: The first time I owned an actual computer was my

1205
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 13: final year of university.

1206
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 12: But back then, he said, one, I saw something.

1207
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 13: And it's interesting because it's such an early stage of

1208
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 13: my career, but it felt like something different to everything

1209
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 13: else I knew in my community, where they were no

1210
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 13: role models you had access to or saw, and that

1211
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 13: kind of shaped my folks and listening to my mom

1212
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 13: focusing on that and taking up many opportunities. And then

1213
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 13: if I fast trapped that story, when the neighborhood I

1214
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 13: grew up and it's called Bayview in Chatsworth, and back then,

1215
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 13: you may remember we had no suburb names. We actually

1216
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 13: had numbers. I grew up in Unity to Cheldsworth, and

1217
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 13: when we first had libraries, at some point we read

1218
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 13: so many books a week that I stumbled upon programming

1219
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 13: language books. And I had learned to program with a

1220
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 13: bunch of other kids on pieces of paper. And my mom,

1221
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 13: being the stale war she was, she and she's a

1222
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 13: Both my parents dropped out of high school to look

1223
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 13: after their own families. She went off to the high

1224
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 13: school one year and said the high school teachers.

1225
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 12: You guys have computers. These boys want access to them.

1226
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 13: And so I had access, you know, to computers in

1227
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 13: my high school, and then I went on to study

1228
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,919
Speaker 13: computer science. By the time I got onto I guess

1229
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 13: start at eight or grade ten when you could choose subjects.

1230
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 12: So I guess I had that signal amongst the noise,

1231
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 12: this could be different.

1232
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 13: And I followed this part not knowing where to take me,

1233
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 13: and for whatever reason, by backing that pathway, I ended

1234
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 13: up right now. Chatt and Stephen Curtis on shape Shifters.

1235
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 2: So you study at UKs it in and I was

1236
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 2: trying to put the numbers together without missing five steps.

1237
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 2: But it seemed that you went from studying so literally

1238
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 2: quite a big position Arthur Anderson, then literally managing director

1239
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 2: for IT Strategy and Transformation. I mean, no matter how

1240
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 2: you diesid, you must have been doing that at a

1241
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 2: very young age.

1242
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 13: Well, I guess when you spent nineteen years in one company.

1243
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 13: You kind of can't cover the entire thing in your

1244
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 13: LinkedIn resume. But it's actually interesting story, Stevens. I mentioned

1245
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 13: briefly that if I hadn't gotten a scholarship, I wouldn't

1246
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 13: have gone university, and it so happened that I'd gotten

1247
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 13: a Telcom scholarship for computer science to go to UKs

1248
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 13: at n at the time. And it's interesting that my

1249
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 13: final year of university I had the chance to do

1250
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 13: vacation work at Telcom in their Durban offices, and as

1251
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 13: you well know, head office is pretorious, so you didn't

1252
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 13: get much chance to experiment and see what potential there was.

1253
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 13: And after having done all this work to break out

1254
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 13: of my circumstances in Chatsworth, it didn't feel like being

1255
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 13: a developer was the way forward. And it's interesting that

1256
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 13: when the companies do their university wroachhows you as you'd

1257
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 13: remember in our final years of UNI, you get to

1258
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 13: see what these guys have to offer. And very similar

1259
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 13: to Harry Kellen, that actually was with Arthur Anderson in

1260
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 13: your show. A couple of weeks ago, I joined the

1261
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 13: sister company called Anderson Consulting, which is the opposite of

1262
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 13: the tax and accounting.

1263
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 12: Business in that nineteen ninety eight time frame.

1264
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 13: So and I started my career not in strategy, actually

1265
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 13: started my career in deep technology. When I started we're

1266
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 13: still the earliest part of our democracy and as a

1267
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 13: technology guy. I got to work on the coodest things ever, Stephen.

1268
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 13: So my first project, for example, was to help build

1269
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:42,679
Speaker 13: the IEC that delivered the nineteen ninety nine elections. Nineteen

1270
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 13: ninety four was kind of put together quite rapidly to

1271
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 13: deliver the elections, but nineteen ninety nine we created the democracy.

1272
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 13: I went from there to work for doctor Padilo Hotler

1273
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 13: as a youngster twenty two to twenty fe years of age,

1274
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,759
Speaker 13: under many senior people, to work on Census two thousand

1275
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 13: and one. So me in regard as a youngster, I

1276
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 13: got to see democracy come to life in a world

1277
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 13: where technology was enabling us to see our potential and

1278
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 13: its earliest phases.

1279
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,600
Speaker 12: And then, as you called out on my LinkedIn, I

1280
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 12: got to then move.

1281
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 13: From being in deep technology to see the value of

1282
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 13: technology in solving business and governmental problems. And I was

1283
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 13: asked to head up IT strategy, probably around eight years

1284
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 13: into my career, very very young, so I was one

1285
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 13: of the youngest partners at thirty want to make partner

1286
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 13: at Accentia.

1287
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 2: As you talk, come sort of remembering my own memories

1288
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 2: of that time, and there were several big transitions. There

1289
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 2: was the transition from the end of democracy, the end

1290
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 2: of a party to democracy, at the transition and then

1291
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 2: the beginnings of transformation. But there were also very important

1292
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 2: technological changes. So cell phones had come in, the use

1293
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 2: of it, ty was exploding. Suddenly everybody was getting into it.

1294
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 2: Cell phones. Then we're probably what we think of AI.

1295
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 2: Now you know something that's going to change everything. The

1296
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 2: late nineties were also quite an optimistic time leading up

1297
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 2: to the sort of dot com boom. It must have

1298
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:16,759
Speaker 2: been the most amazing time to be a young person

1299
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,600
Speaker 2: in that field. The opportunities would have been huge to

1300
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,680
Speaker 2: people older than you didn't understand it. I mean, I'm

1301
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 2: guessing here, and suddenly there must have been an opportunity.

1302
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,680
Speaker 13: Well, listen, there was ridiculous amounts of opportunity back in

1303
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 13: nineteen ninety eight when we had gotten this deal to

1304
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 13: help government build the elections. It is a time when

1305
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 13: the likes of Bull Gates sponsored the software to build elections.

1306
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 13: Are the big tech firms wanted to help us realize

1307
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 13: our democracy, and it was fascinating.

1308
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 12: People always think that technology needs that fast lines to

1309
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 12: run on.

1310
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 13: You'd be surprised that to deliver the nineteen nine nine

1311
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:56,640
Speaker 13: election we actually ran on a one case speed, not

1312
01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 13: a young gigabyte line one case speed using a VSE

1313
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 13: satellite technology, because in nineteen eighty nine we didn't connect

1314
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:05,839
Speaker 13: South Africa.

1315
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 12: Even today we're not connected.

1316
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 13: We have such a group for growth in terms of

1317
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 13: coverage of technology, but back in nineteen ninety eight nineteen

1318
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 13: eighty nine, the one thing we did have was a

1319
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 13: low orbit vset technology covering the country and we actually

1320
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 13: used that to build the first elections for the second elections,

1321
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 13: but the first technology enabled one in nineteen eighty nine,

1322
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 13: So in terms of pulling that off, it was so

1323
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 13: fascinating that we had We had countries come visit the

1324
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,479
Speaker 13: election center where universities come and see things that had

1325
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 13: never ever been done in our country. So you're right,

1326
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 13: as a youngster literally at twenty one and twenty two,

1327
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 13: you start and see things that had never ever been

1328
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 13: done in this country before, and you got to showcase

1329
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 13: that to other people that only read the theory of

1330
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 13: what was possible. So absolutely fascinating time to be alive

1331
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 13: and to be an active part of our early democracy.

1332
01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 2: When you are making decisions. Now, does that time inform

1333
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,719
Speaker 2: me or thinking? Because you've seen how quickly things can change.

1334
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 2: The thing about that time was that because so much

1335
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 2: was changing, you could actually institute a new system. A

1336
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 2: young person could come along and say you can do

1337
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 2: it better, and you would be allowed to. Now we

1338
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:18,840
Speaker 2: don't have that moment. Now we have systems in place,

1339
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 2: and so to change things is much harder. So does

1340
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 2: that time still inform how you make decisions now when

1341
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 2: you're running a company.

1342
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 12: I think it does. Stephen.

1343
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 13: One of the things that I think most leaders try

1344
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 13: to focus on is how to align the entire business

1345
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 13: on a bigger purpose. Where we talk about the bigger

1346
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 13: purpose and I talk about solving problems at matter and

1347
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 13: when I close my eyes as a CEO.

1348
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 12: I don't think of the revenue and the margin. I

1349
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 12: think of the better life for all our people.

1350
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 13: I think about growing up in an OURDP house in

1351
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 13: chatsword and sleeping on the floor. So I have that

1352
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:58,480
Speaker 13: context that keeps me firm on regardless of your tribulation

1353
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 13: or the challenge you're going through, how do we see

1354
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 13: beyond the challenge? So the first thing is to do

1355
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 13: you personally believe in what you're doing, And if you can,

1356
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 13: then actually very few challenges would.

1357
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 12: Come your way.

1358
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 13: And as a newcomer to this TransUnion business, and it's

1359
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 13: interesting the way you introduced our business. We've been around

1360
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 13: for one hundred and twenty four years when I arrived

1361
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 13: nine years ago.

1362
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 12: Well they were there already before I got there.

1363
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 13: So Lena wasn't going to come in and give them

1364
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,720
Speaker 13: a miraculous cure to all their ailments. I had to

1365
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:30,559
Speaker 13: find a way to get people to bind that journey.

1366
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,799
Speaker 13: I had to find a way to appreciate that. Unlike

1367
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 13: in the world of consulting and big tech change, you

1368
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 13: can't change everything. So starting to realize what cards you've

1369
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 13: been dealt and working with those cards where they physically

1370
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 13: technological pieces or the people that work in the organization

1371
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 13: who CEOs, create a recipies for success using what you

1372
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 13: have at your disposal, because a big bowl change isn't

1373
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,560
Speaker 13: something you can afford to do from a cost perspective,

1374
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 13: or may have the time to do given you a

1375
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 13: time to horizons.

1376
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,559
Speaker 2: We're speaking to Lee Nike. He's the seer of trans Union.

1377
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 2: Africa's your shape shifter. Tonight on The Money Show, It's

1378
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:08,719
Speaker 2: ten minutes State.

1379
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 8: The Money Show. Stephen Rutez is brought to you by

1380
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 8: absir C ib Proud Sole Leader Ranger and Infrastructure Finance

1381
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 8: Structuring Agent on the South African National Treasuries eleven point

1382
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,960
Speaker 8: eight billion rare Infrastructure and Development Finance Bond.

1383
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 3: The Money Show shape Shifter.

1384
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 2: Is your shape Shifter tonight The seer of trans Union

1385
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:35,439
Speaker 2: Africa Lean Nike Lee. When I look to the world ahead,

1386
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 2: and we've been talking a lot about it and that

1387
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 2: and that technology, I see a lot of future. I

1388
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 2: think AI has a lot of future. There are a

1389
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of threats as well. I don't

1390
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 2: want to go into specifics on this, but one of

1391
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 2: the things I see is just so many sort of

1392
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 2: bad actors, you know, hackers is one example. I sometimes

1393
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 2: think if I were running a company like yours, I

1394
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 2: would be I'll go to bait one night, probably on

1395
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 2: a Friday night, so excited about the sort of possibility

1396
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 2: of what can happen in the next five years, and

1397
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:08,599
Speaker 2: I would go to bed on another night, maybe at

1398
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 2: Sunday night, actually quite worried about things because there is

1399
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 2: so much to sort of guard against. At the moment,

1400
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 2: it feels, I mean, maybe I'm just getting old and pessimistic.

1401
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 13: Well, I can confirm that you and I both getting old, Stephen,

1402
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 13: So that is true. I think the role of a

1403
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 13: leader in a very digital centric world is to have

1404
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,519
Speaker 13: this control tower bird's eye view of all the pieces

1405
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 13: that I am in front of us. You know, with

1406
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 13: the many challenges that Africa has, there's also equally opportunity

1407
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 13: so but equally so, they are challenges that create these risks.

1408
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,560
Speaker 13: Where it is cyber, where it is fraud, what is

1409
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 13: the lack of trust which is a bigger issue than

1410
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 13: both cyber and fraud in Africa, where we just don't

1411
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 13: trust each other as humans forget AI for that matter.

1412
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 13: And I think it's about being able to balance this

1413
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:02,639
Speaker 13: and as I mentioned earlier before the break, your ability

1414
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 13: to connect with a bigger purpose. In my case, I

1415
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 13: think about the problems that guide me to see all

1416
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 13: these pieces would calm and in compartments, because otherwise you'll

1417
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 13: just be too stressed out. Something like financial inclusion or

1418
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 13: what I called solving a problem that matters. These are

1419
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 13: the things that help CEOs guide all through all these challenges,

1420
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 13: because if it wasn't something bigger, you'd be overwhelmed by

1421
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 13: the challenges of the moment that we have to deal with.

1422
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I suppose you also have to have

1423
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,800
Speaker 2: to think about what is going to change. Do you

1424
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 2: have a vision of the future in some way? I mean,

1425
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,679
Speaker 2: are there certain trends that you can see of how

1426
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 2: AI and IT trends are going to change our lives?

1427
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 2: In the end, it's all about data and numbers.

1428
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 13: Listen, I've been writing about and talking about this forevers.

1429
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 13: You'll probably see my LinkedIn profile in a back in

1430
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 13: twenty two while we spoke about the rise of FNB

1431
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 13: to step up against the Amazons of the world. You

1432
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 13: remember that time where we said every business is a

1433
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 13: digital business. As early as that period, Stephen, we forecasted

1434
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,880
Speaker 13: that around by twenty thirty, almost half of jobs that

1435
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 13: exists will be replaced by automation. So in many regards,

1436
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:22,759
Speaker 13: what is happening today and maybe even at a faster pace,

1437
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 13: is happening like we foretold back in twenty twelve and

1438
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:29,759
Speaker 13: twenty thirteen. So for me, a couple of things are happening.

1439
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 13: In my mind, I see that these changes that are

1440
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 13: happening now, we're meant to happen. The question for us

1441
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 13: as individuals, both you and I Stephen individually, is how

1442
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 13: do we stay relevant in the world that's changing where

1443
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,600
Speaker 13: jobs that we were well held in the community are

1444
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 13: now being challenged by automation and robotic person's automation and

1445
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 13: just AI in and of itself. How do you drive

1446
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 13: relevant individually equally so as businessestven in a world where

1447
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 13: things are quite tough, how do you embrace technology as

1448
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:02,480
Speaker 13: a tables stakes to allow us to become more effective

1449
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 13: and efficient and partner with technology to liver better outcomes.

1450
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 13: A lot of what I write about is talking about

1451
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 13: how we partner. They are things that we just are

1452
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 13: unable to do that tech is better to do. But

1453
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,320
Speaker 13: the things that we are better doing, social and creative intelligence,

1454
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:21,880
Speaker 13: the humanity, our ability to orchestrate it's actually a lot

1455
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 13: better than the tech. So I see a balanced view

1456
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:27,600
Speaker 13: on AI, but I do see need for us to

1457
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:32,640
Speaker 13: drive individual and collective relevance as organizations and as individuals.

1458
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 13: What does the future look like? I think that us

1459
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 13: as South Africa. I've put an essay lens on for

1460
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:40,160
Speaker 13: a second. I look after an African portfolio of companies.

1461
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:43,879
Speaker 13: But as far as South Africa goes, we know earliest

1462
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,760
Speaker 13: parts of growth. You know, we only thirty one or

1463
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:50,120
Speaker 13: so years in out democracy. Our gdpiece in US early

1464
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 13: one percent. I'd like for us over the next few

1465
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 13: years to make strides to catch up with subsar in

1466
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 13: Africa that's punching closer.

1467
01:18:58,720 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 12: To the four percent mile.

1468
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 13: And with all the challenges we have in Africa steven

1469
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 13: with its transparency, lack of accountability, lack of connectivity. Africa

1470
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 13: is a continental region. It's still growing in around four

1471
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 13: to five percent. So for me, I see a time

1472
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,559
Speaker 13: where we leave behind the challenges that keep us apart.

1473
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 13: We leverage and have connectivity, allowing us to leave frog

1474
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:25,479
Speaker 13: the challenges I saw in nineteen ninety nine when delivered

1475
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:28,879
Speaker 13: elections or we are not one, we not need Galatian society.

1476
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 13: When we start to connect as humans and as technology

1477
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:34,720
Speaker 13: in a low cost manner, then the use case that

1478
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 13: the SARBA is putting forward, that Saras is putting forward,

1479
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 13: that homer Place is putting forward, will allow us to

1480
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 13: accelerate into the potential where we have more equity as

1481
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 13: citizens and we have a greater power as an African continent.

1482
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 2: We've got just thirty seconds left, Lee, what do you

1483
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 2: like to do for fun? I mean, are you're a jogger,

1484
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:55,679
Speaker 2: You're a cyclist to be free to go to the beach.

1485
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 2: Do you prefer to go to the bush? What sort

1486
01:19:58,120 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 2: of keeps you going?

1487
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,599
Speaker 12: So? I like to walk for a living.

1488
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 13: So I like to walk and for myself and just

1489
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 13: disconnect from the busyness of the world. And because it's

1490
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:10,519
Speaker 13: in that age group now where we start to pick

1491
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 13: up this habit, I've started looking at birding, just kind

1492
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 13: of photograph birth to figure out how this world works.

1493
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 12: Apparently once you'd fifty, that is the hobby of choice.

1494
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 2: Stephen Curtis, you and some other people I know very

1495
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 2: well and keep it. Thanks very much, Lee, It's been

1496
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:31,559
Speaker 2: wonderful to talk to you. I really appreciate the time.

1497
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 2: Nice to talk to someone of my own vintage as well,

1498
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 2: if I may say, but thank you so much.

1499
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 9: Lee.

1500
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:39,640
Speaker 2: Nike is the CEO of TransUnion Africa. Lee, thank you

1501
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 2: for your time on The Money Show.

1502
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 8: The Money Show with Steven Crutez is brought to you

1503
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 8: by ABSUR CIB proud sole leader Ranger and Infrastructure Finance

1504
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 8: Structuring Agent of the South African National Treasuries eleven point

1505
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 8: eight billion Rand Infrastructure and Development Finance Bond.

1506
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 2: Well in the US, things turning negative I'm afraid that

1507
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 2: our Jones is down point one eight percent, the Nastik

1508
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:05,679
Speaker 2: is down one percent, the S and P five hundred

1509
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:10,040
Speaker 2: is down two thirds percent. The issue of Oracles funding

1510
01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 2: how much money is going to cost to get its

1511
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:14,559
Speaker 2: AI models up and running, seems to be hitting tech

1512
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 2: stocks that's bringing down the rest of the index. I

1513
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 2: think so a plenty going on there, but none of

1514
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 2: it looking very positive at the moment. Will be back

1515
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 2: tomorrow for another edition of the Money Show. I know

1516
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 2: the end of the year is coming soon, but we

1517
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:31,719
Speaker 2: with you through until the end of the week. Good evening,

1518
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 2: it's