Speaker 1: Seven notes. You're listening to the best of the Money Show.
Speaker 1: The Money Show. Welcome to the best Bits of the
Speaker 1: Money Show, your weekly digest of what we think are
Speaker 1: the most interesting, sometimes the funniest, sometimes the silliest parts
Speaker 1: of the Money Show, but easily the most important parts,
Speaker 1: the parts that you actually need to share with someone
Speaker 1: because they're going to have a direct bearing on their
Speaker 1: on their life and maybe on your life. Maybe they'll
Speaker 1: explain something that's happening to you for you to send
Speaker 1: on a podcast of this of the Money Show to
Speaker 1: someone who you think needs to hear it. To start,
Speaker 1: some of the big news stories that piqued our interest
Speaker 1: from the week that was first, and perhaps most importantly,
Speaker 1: our unemployment rates still I'm afraid to say a disaster,
Speaker 1: the unemployment rate climbing point three percentage points in the
Speaker 1: second quarter to thirty three point two percent just I
Speaker 1: mean just under a third. We should call it what
Speaker 1: it is, which is at least a third of people
Speaker 1: who want to work aren't able to find a jobs.
Speaker 1: Are exporters facing massive tariffs from the US, They're going
Speaker 1: to get a five year reprieve sort of under a
Speaker 1: government plan. It'll allow firms to work together against competition law,
Speaker 1: to shoulder shipment costs, intelligence and infrastructure. Basically to try
Speaker 1: and make sure that our firms are able to stay
Speaker 1: competitive and but coin again approaching record territory as treasury
Speaker 1: investors have boosted the crypto market. Tonight we bring you
Speaker 1: a mixture of stories from the world of money from
Speaker 1: the week that has been your shape shifter this week
Speaker 1: was doctor Nimrod and Baile, Managing director of the Knowledge
Speaker 1: Anchor Group, someone who has combined knowledge academia and business,
Speaker 1: a master's in public Policy, Development and administration, a PhD
Speaker 1: in corporate governance in state owned Enterprises from the Vitt
Speaker 1: School of Governance. He's also had influential roles at the
Speaker 1: National Development Agency, the ReGenesis Business School where he's the
Speaker 1: head of Local Government, the Vitz Business School, and do
Speaker 1: you point holdings. It's a fascinating conversation and he does
Speaker 1: not hold back from some of his views about what's
Speaker 1: going on in our society.
Speaker 2: It was quite remarkable, Stephen, as you currently pointed out,
Speaker 2: you know, everything changed at the time. We had new
Speaker 2: publical dis dispensation that was eminent. You know, we came
Speaker 2: from you know, richardly diverse education system. Uh you know,
Speaker 2: back then I used to be an a student, but
Speaker 2: I realized that the standards are completely different when I
Speaker 2: go to FITZ. You know, I had to adjust, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, in an a most atrocious way because the
Speaker 2: gap was just too huge. Everything you know, us compete
Speaker 2: with clim teller cream private schools, you know, so it
Speaker 2: was it was. It was quite tough at the time,
Speaker 2: but you know, you stay focused and you don't forget
Speaker 2: the reason why you were there. You get support from
Speaker 2: you know, they visited a time, had a very good
Speaker 2: support system for especially back graduates, you know, because they
Speaker 2: understood the the the performance standard of the standards were
Speaker 2: completely different. So you just have to enroll and you
Speaker 2: are vide yourself irrespective of how you know. Uncomfortable it
Speaker 2: was because it's a cultoll shock. You know, you did
Speaker 2: very well at some points and you realize that you
Speaker 2: are just beyond mediocre. Just need to literally pull yourself
Speaker 2: up in about bootstraps and focus on business at hand.
Speaker 1: You came from the CAUSA, yep, and the courser itself,
Speaker 1: I mean recall was the sense of some terrible things.
Speaker 1: It was learning, Yeah, and that must have been quite tough.
Speaker 1: I mean, were you still living there and commuting where
Speaker 1: you on raised Vitzl somewhere in central Dubik, your family
Speaker 1: would still have been intercourse.
Speaker 2: Of course, my family was still intercursa. But because of
Speaker 2: the social upheaval it was it was not pretty practical.
Speaker 2: I had to I stayed in Hillboro as a residence
Speaker 2: with friends even during the recess. I will not dare
Speaker 2: set foot at home because it was that volatile and
Speaker 2: and then that's how I survived.
Speaker 1: It was not easy, but yeah, I am the community
Speaker 1: that you came from to get you to its when
Speaker 1: the government really did not help much at the time,
Speaker 1: that must have been quite something. I mean, where what
Speaker 1: kind of school were you at?
Speaker 2: Well? I was in an ordinary public school called Londonloasi
Speaker 2: and we're phenamental teachers. Our principal was very supportive. His
Speaker 2: name was port Clatter, and he understood, you know, the
Speaker 2: the the the the makeup of black people. He understood
Speaker 2: the makeup of students. He was a white person, and
Speaker 2: back then we had quite a sizable cohort of white
Speaker 2: teachers in the township. Uh and and most of them
Speaker 2: were after parents speaking, you know, teachers, uh and and
Speaker 2: and who were just there to offer their services in uplifting,
Speaker 2: you know, community uplifting the College of Education because they
Speaker 2: were relatively better off. Whether the best, I'm not shifted,
Speaker 2: were the best, but the wouldn't be better compared to
Speaker 2: the teachers that we had.
Speaker 1: At the time.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we didn't have the right mets teachers.
Speaker 2: We did write science teachers. You know, the schooling was
Speaker 2: disrupted from time to time. Literally you were lucky to
Speaker 2: go to school for the week because of those disruptions.
Speaker 2: But we stay focused. We had a very good support
Speaker 2: system and the rest is history.
Speaker 1: As they say, you were studying politics in the early nineties, right,
Speaker 1: and I was.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 1: I did just one course in politics. I shouldn't tell
Speaker 1: you this, but it was in nineteen ninety four, and
Speaker 1: I remember my poor lecturer having to make it up
Speaker 1: as she went along because everything was changing. Right, you
Speaker 1: must have been through the same thing. I mean, you
Speaker 1: never really knew. I mean, how would you describe the
Speaker 1: South African political system in nineteen ninety three, I mean,
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
Speaker 2: Well, it was very interesting because you know, typically every
Speaker 2: black folk in the main we ever do law and arts,
Speaker 2: a very few back then we're in the faculty, like
Speaker 2: a commis engineering that type of stuff. I mean, growing
Speaker 2: up in a township, you know, politics was in you,
Speaker 2: was ingrained in your system. Social justice was part of
Speaker 2: your gender. Transformation was part of your gender. So you
Speaker 2: obviously we were exupposed to Russian politics, European politics, colonialism
Speaker 2: and and that ideals on how you you you move
Speaker 2: away from uh colonials set up to a post colinial
Speaker 2: setup ily in South Afcan context. So it was quite
Speaker 2: interesting from that end. But I soon realized that I
Speaker 2: wasn't kind of for politics in as much as I
Speaker 2: did very well academically, because I have a really good
Speaker 2: sense of debates, grasping you know, diversion views and and
Speaker 2: and altding my thoughts in a very convincing fashion, I
Speaker 2: would imagine, But I realized that politics was not my my,
Speaker 2: my my field because.
Speaker 1: I maybe you're just too good a person.
Speaker 2: No, I just don't have patience for full full Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just don't have patience for people who are not authentic.
Speaker 2: I don't have patients for people who who take out
Speaker 2: us for a ride. I have no patience for you know,
Speaker 2: spending time in million million less conversation where we're not
Speaker 2: going anywhere, you know, take a decision, step by it
Speaker 2: and let's let's let's move. That's I don't not just
Speaker 2: like to go into business.
Speaker 1: You went into business. You also did some more education.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you felt you completed it with
Speaker 1: the doctorate or if you're still learning. I'm gonna come
Speaker 1: to that no moment. I was interested to see that
Speaker 1: you spend some time with the ReGenesis Group and you
Speaker 1: were the head of local government there, and I can't
Speaker 1: imagine how you feel, how you felt driving here tonight
Speaker 1: through the streets of Joe Burk And it's not just pottholes,
Speaker 1: it's water, it's this, it's that. And having an academic
Speaker 1: and a deeper understanding of local government than almost everybody.
Speaker 1: I mean, that must be quite a sort of thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I mean the condition that deteriorated badly, you know,
Speaker 2: over time, because we failed as a system to pursue
Speaker 2: meritocracy in terms of appointments of leaders, in terms of
Speaker 2: providing sufficient incentives. We have allowed patternary system to take over.
Speaker 2: We have allowed a system that appreciates mediocrity and that
Speaker 2: appreciate underperformance. And it's very difficult.
Speaker 1: We can't fix potholes, you.
Speaker 2: Can't fit strict lights, we can't fix letter and these
Speaker 2: are not big ticket items. And I would often say,
Speaker 2: you know, the health of any environment started by cleanliness.
Speaker 2: If at the moment you say later in municipal buildings,
Speaker 2: then you realize you've got a problem and you get
Speaker 2: to administrative issues like unqualified audits, you have disclaim us
Speaker 2: so reaches is back then ran a capacity building program
Speaker 2: that is meant to try and address those competencies for
Speaker 2: senior executive within many silities so that they are on
Speaker 2: a positive trajectory that adds value to the system which
Speaker 2: they served. But unfortunately, as we all know that when
Speaker 2: you know FAED fed and fitted out to a point
Speaker 2: where you know every other municipalities is technically bankrupt and
Speaker 2: we've got audit findings that adverress and there's no consequences management.
Speaker 2: You know, AG from time to time brings a whole
Speaker 2: lot of reports which don't go anywhere because we just
Speaker 2: don't have a culture of accountability, and impunity has become
Speaker 2: part has been systematized because patronage has has literally you know,
Speaker 2: like an albums around the neck. Maybe there's a there's
Speaker 2: a there's an end insight because political system has changed.
Speaker 2: Coalition has their own pros and cons. But on the
Speaker 2: positive side, we're seeing the middle of accountability picking up
Speaker 2: a little bit, which is positive. Which is positive.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd hope that there will be a lot
Speaker 1: more accountability because we were moving away from from you know,
Speaker 1: sort of predictable elections and and gosh, I don't see that. Well.
Speaker 2: I mean, we we we get in there. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's gonna take time because unfortunately, we have to get
Speaker 2: to a point where we get the economy right. And
Speaker 2: the focus in any economy development is to get in
Speaker 2: the economy back on track. Let's fix our so e
Speaker 2: s which I have become liabilities. Once you sort of
Speaker 2: so is in terms of legislative frameworks, in terms of
Speaker 2: competent boards and clear mandates of those ass we were
Speaker 2: more likely to transition.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you all know that we've got a National
Speaker 2: and Enterprises Bill which which which felt which failed, you know,
Speaker 2: to materialize purity because it just cut and paste in
Speaker 2: so many instances, there was not enough consultation around the
Speaker 2: the ideological posture of these entities which are meant to
Speaker 2: create value as opposed to being a drain. So I'm
Speaker 2: quite optimistic that we are moving towards the right direction.
Speaker 1: I'm going to throw you into some controversy now, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't know what your answer will be. You you
Speaker 1: pointed out that what happens in councils is patronage, and
Speaker 1: there's a massive debate going on in society again. It's
Speaker 1: happening now again for various reasons about black economic empowerment.
Speaker 1: There are some people who see bee and patronage and
Speaker 1: cadre deployment as three different words to describe the same thing,
Speaker 1: and they are defenders of black economic empowerment sucking. Matclosomo
Speaker 1: was sitting in that chair a couple of months ago
Speaker 1: pointing out that without the it would be very hard
Speaker 1: to imagine black leaders in his position, or very hard
Speaker 1: to see the to see the economy transform. Where do
Speaker 1: you sit in that? I mean's be in patronage the
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 2: No, definitely not. Let's understand the principle behind black you're
Speaker 2: coming in pound first, it's about social justice, which which
Speaker 2: which invariably speaks about equity. We all understand where we
Speaker 2: come from as a as a p people. We needed
Speaker 2: to have a readdress mechanism, and he was perceived as
Speaker 2: or conceived as one of those interventions that could lay
Speaker 2: the political uh that could lay the economic landscape. The
Speaker 2: execution is different, but we must direct distinction between policy
Speaker 2: design and implementation. The design is justifiable. The design had
Speaker 2: to happen. For every other country where there's been in
Speaker 2: the disconnect or inequalities, there have been some form of
Speaker 2: intervention by the state. How BEE was translated into into action,
Speaker 2: and how it was implemented. It's something that where we
Speaker 2: need to focus our energies on.
Speaker 1: Professor William Goumydie. I'm sure you know him. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've ever managed him. I don't know what
Speaker 1: he's like to manage. Always find him incredibly thoughtful in public.
Speaker 1: I suspects he likes an argument. I hope he does.
Speaker 1: He suggested, and I see that his his view is
Speaker 1: now quoted in The Economist where he said that bees
Speaker 1: probably cost us a trillion rand or so, and that
Speaker 1: that's being divided by just one hundred. People have asked
Speaker 1: him about it informally, and I think I think there's
Speaker 1: a bit more nuanced to what he's saying, but that
Speaker 1: is a hard thing to justify, if that's if that's
Speaker 1: anyway close to true.
Speaker 2: Look, I mean there's element of truth in the article
Speaker 2: that he that they wrote about. I mean, I do
Speaker 2: know him quite a crowd. Well, you know, he taught
Speaker 2: me at some point, and we've also shared numerous spaces
Speaker 2: where we discussed these kinds of issues. There's a elementum
Speaker 2: truth of truth in in his posture because we and
Speaker 2: again we failed to implement the policy correctly. If you're
Speaker 2: going to deploy people who are not qualified, if you're
Speaker 2: going to ring fans, you know, strategic problems or strategic
Speaker 2: contracts to few elites who have no credibility, who have
Speaker 2: no history of delivery, who are not qualified, you you
Speaker 2: are going to spend a lot of money. These builders
Speaker 2: that is making reference to are going to be wasted
Speaker 2: because you're, you know, not really filtering down wealth. You
Speaker 2: concentrating wealth through those that have those that have approximity
Speaker 2: to power in the main a c. Kidas who are
Speaker 2: still raking at big time with such importunity. But that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean it was ill conceived. Mind still know.
Speaker 1: From doctor Nimrod and Verre speaking about his journey through leadership,
Speaker 1: governance and strategic development, but also sharing some of his
Speaker 1: views about our society. Seven notes the best of the
Speaker 1: Money Show from this week, How I Make My money?
Speaker 1: It was the most interesting conversation we've had in quite
Speaker 1: a while. Lisa Taylor is a color analyst. She's actually
Speaker 1: a color forecast, so she can tell you which colors
Speaker 1: are going to be moving a couple of years from now.
Speaker 1: Really extraordinary. She was also part of the creation of
Speaker 1: the natural color system. Did you know that colors come
Speaker 1: with numbers? Did you know ten million colors exist, that
Speaker 1: women can see ten million of them, and men me
Speaker 1: myself and I we can only see seven million colors.
Speaker 1: Did you know that Lisa Taylor knows that she'll tell
Speaker 1: you how she's made money from it.
Speaker 4: A lot of artists are said to have symthms here,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of musicians. The color and music is
Speaker 4: related as well. Music is chords and harmony, as is
Speaker 4: color measurement.
Speaker 1: So you knew you had the sense? Yes, you, I
Speaker 1: presume had to go through school. I imagine your coloring
Speaker 1: in was a lot better than mine. What did you do?
Speaker 4: I've never called in the alliance?
Speaker 1: Oh really, that's interesting, definite adhd O So you know
Speaker 1: you have this. I don't know. Do you see it
Speaker 1: as a gift?
Speaker 4: Sometimes? Most times I see it as a gift. Sometimes
Speaker 4: it's not so much because color is kind of overwhelming
Speaker 4: unless you learned to switch it off or filter it out.
Speaker 1: So how do you, then, I'm sorry to how do
Speaker 1: you then develop an interest in it? I mean, do
Speaker 1: you study art? Do you do something else? Do you
Speaker 1: to start to make a living? Where do you go
Speaker 1: from school? Is what I'm asking.
Speaker 4: Well, I went from school into architecture. I studied. I
Speaker 4: was the first intake of the Fitz Technicon b Tech
Speaker 4: course in architecture, which kind of gives my age away
Speaker 4: mentioning that's Technicon and b Tech and qualified my bursary.
Speaker 4: I was the last person to get a burstuy with
Speaker 4: Anglo American and I worked in architecture, but I tended
Speaker 4: to job hop because as soon as I got I
Speaker 4: learned everything about hospital design or housing design, I would
Speaker 4: move on to the next practice, and in the eighties
Speaker 4: that wasn't such a good thing on your seat, So
Speaker 4: every eighteen months, hopping from job to job. I then
Speaker 4: decided to go into marketing because I can talk a
Speaker 4: hind leg of a Donkey, worked for first or for
Speaker 4: Steel Company roofing, the major roofing people, and then onto Paint,
Speaker 4: which was awesome because I got to do color, color, color, color, color.
Speaker 4: And then I was headhunted by a granite company and
Speaker 4: spent another two year three years traveling the world with that.
Speaker 4: But my first love was always coming back to me
Speaker 4: and I was hunting then the Internet, trying to find
Speaker 4: out about this ability of mind with color and synthonisia,
Speaker 4: which I didn't know at that time existed. And I
Speaker 4: came across the AARIC and in turn the CSR in Pretoria,
Speaker 4: being a member of the ARC. The ARC is the
Speaker 4: International Color Association. I went to the metrology laboratory. Boy,
Speaker 4: it's a difficult word to say, and it was like
Speaker 4: two people coming together. Yeah, I was this metrologist who's
Speaker 4: this colour scientist and me semi architect Marketer, and we
Speaker 4: came together and we literally went and she said, oh,
Speaker 4: by the way, we want to make NCS and she
Speaker 4: touched the NCS atlas. We want to make this the
Speaker 4: national standard because the defense force, who holds the heraldry
Speaker 4: of the country. I don't with you know that that's
Speaker 4: the whole concept of defending the flag they own the Heraldry.
Speaker 4: They said, our new flag, the six colors, the only
Speaker 4: flag in the world with so many different colors. It's
Speaker 4: very difficult to reproduce. So we want to make NCS
Speaker 4: the national standard. I in turn thought, ha an opportunity
Speaker 4: for business. I approached NCS. This was nineteen ninety seven
Speaker 4: and they for the next two years, I kept nagging
Speaker 4: them and nagging them, saying, please let me be your distributor,
Speaker 4: and they refer to me as this mad woman from Africa. Eventually,
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, the md came out to South Africa
Speaker 4: and him and I went around a lot of paint
Speaker 4: manufacturers and I started my business. And that's kind of yeah.
Speaker 1: So basically what you were doing is you were categorizing colors, right.
Speaker 4: So measuring measuring color.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you get white off white cream. I mean,
Speaker 1: would those be examples of what to me might be white?
Speaker 1: But you are three different things.
Speaker 4: No, what you get a six elementary colors white and
Speaker 4: black at the top and the bottom, and then the
Speaker 4: four elementary colors of yellow, red, blue, and green. And
Speaker 4: with those six elementary colors you can actually measure the
Speaker 4: ten million colors the human eye can see and give
Speaker 4: a value and communicate that across the world.
Speaker 1: Can your eye and my eye despite the fact that
Speaker 1: I have no understanding of color, married to someone who's
Speaker 1: a deep understanding of color, and I do feel for her.
Speaker 1: But do our both of our eyes see the same
Speaker 1: number of colors, even though your brain clearly interacts with
Speaker 1: it very differently to mine.
Speaker 4: We've researched, and yes, we have matched the ten million
Speaker 4: colors the human eye can see. We have researched in
Speaker 4: every human being sees color the same given normal color vision.
Speaker 4: But what the where the difference comes in is it
Speaker 4: goes when it goes to the central process of the brain.
Speaker 4: We don't have equal preference, so we react emotionally differently
Speaker 4: to the color. And that's the only difference. Why would
Speaker 4: we need color standards otherwise if we don't see color
Speaker 4: the same. So when you buy, you as a man,
Speaker 4: will only see seven million colors and me, as the
Speaker 4: privileged woman, see ten million colors. We are better?
Speaker 1: Really, why is that? Is that? Is that a rain
Speaker 1: difference or an eye difference?
Speaker 4: It's it's to do with the central process of the brain.
Speaker 4: You as a man with a hunter, So you had
Speaker 4: to throw the sphere in the distance and knock off
Speaker 4: the antelope. And as the woman I was carrying gathering
Speaker 4: the berries and looking for the rape and what was
Speaker 4: poisoned and was what wasn't, So I had to come
Speaker 4: up with seeing differences in color, whereas you had to
Speaker 4: see in distance. And that's the only reason. But the
Speaker 4: woman carries the color defect g So we passed it
Speaker 4: on to our sons.
Speaker 1: Sure I had no idea about about any of that. Okay,
Speaker 1: so waste money on me. Can I just want to
Speaker 1: go back a little bit. So so that ten million colors,
Speaker 1: I would imagine coming up with ten million names for
Speaker 1: colors might take a little while, So I presume we
Speaker 1: use it. We use numbering.
Speaker 4: System for this numbering system only. So for instance, a
Speaker 4: red that I think your glasses are, that would be
Speaker 4: defined as S fifteen sixty red red twenty percent blue.
Speaker 4: So that gives a value. So that's fifteen percent blackness,
Speaker 4: sixty percent chromaticness, and it's red twenty percent blue.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to have to explain blackness and chromaticness
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 4: Now, Okay, blackness is the percentage of how much blackness
Speaker 4: is in the color and chromaticness is the resemblance to
Speaker 4: the four elementary colors of either yellow, red, blue, or green.
Speaker 1: Okay, And when you see a color with your sort
Speaker 1: of sense of it, do you know what number it is?
Speaker 1: Or is that asking too much? I mean, that must
Speaker 1: be asking too much.
Speaker 4: Normally, most people, even with training, would still need a standard,
Speaker 4: would still need an instrument, because we have spectrophotometers, we
Speaker 4: have color readers, and we have color atlases and standards.
Speaker 4: But I can, to a certain extent, I'd still have
Speaker 4: to check myself. It's impossible to have the value and
Speaker 4: the numbering system in your mind of ten million colors.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think I'd be sure.
Speaker 4: But it's kind of difficult.
Speaker 1: Why does color matter? And I'm really asking about the
Speaker 1: link that you made at the very beginning about emotion.
Speaker 1: So I've been into a house or a room I
Speaker 1: thought I don't quite like it here. I don't know why,
Speaker 1: And I've been into another room where it's the same
Speaker 1: physical size and felt a lot better. My wife has
Speaker 1: pointed out later it's because one was a dark shade
Speaker 1: of brown or something awful. I mean, color really does
Speaker 1: affect your mood? Is the point I'm making well.
Speaker 4: Color is psychology because it's created in the psyche. Therefore
Speaker 4: is psychology. You can manipulate people just by having different
Speaker 4: colors on your walls. And that's why light is also
Speaker 4: so important. In the beginning of my business, I actually
Speaker 4: used to go home halfway through the day to change
Speaker 4: my outfit so that I would be reflecting where we
Speaker 4: were in the negotiations. So I'd start off with an
Speaker 4: orange and then go back to change into a green
Speaker 4: suit so that I'm now formalizing the contract. It's that important.
Speaker 4: And I would also make sure that I talk to
Speaker 4: the MDS PA as I walk in and say, gosh,
Speaker 4: you know you've got all these beije walls around you.
Speaker 4: Do you suffer from a lot of migrains or headaches?
Speaker 4: And they go, oh, yes, goody, yeah, I really do.
Speaker 4: And my business card is a red card, and I say,
Speaker 4: just put this at high level in front interview and
Speaker 4: what your headaches disappear. And then the next time I go,
Speaker 4: the receptionist or the PA comes rushing out and grass
Speaker 4: me and goes, oh my god, you're a miracle work.
Speaker 4: My headaches are gone. How do you do this? And
Speaker 4: drags me into everybody's office that I've been wanting to meet,
Speaker 4: because now I'm somebody that seems to know what they're
Speaker 4: talking about. I Meanwhile, all I've offered her is a
Speaker 4: little a focus on the beig walls that we have
Speaker 4: around us, and now obviously the popular grave, which is
Speaker 4: also happening. There is lack of color, so they're not
Speaker 4: being stimulated.
Speaker 1: About. You mentioned red, and we always know that red
Speaker 1: grabs your attention, but I sometimes feel I'm surrounded by
Speaker 1: so much red. As a result of that, I actually
Speaker 1: wonder if we can suffer from red exhaustion. Sometimes it
Speaker 1: just loses a absolutely.
Speaker 4: We've done research which was presented at a conference in
Speaker 4: Thailand in twenty fourteen where the subjects were put in
Speaker 4: a red room and then asked when the thermometer was
Speaker 4: turned down when they felt cold, and then put it
Speaker 4: in a blue room and ask the same question. And
Speaker 4: in a red room they would say I'm warm, I'm warm,
Speaker 4: I'm fine, but I'm not entirely happy. In the blue room,
Speaker 4: they'd be freezing cold in a very short space of time.
Speaker 4: So there's a big difference in perception. There's also a
Speaker 4: big difference in the way your heartreak goes up in
Speaker 4: a red room. Sure, you should never have read at
Speaker 4: a checkout counter because people will not buy the product.
Speaker 4: They will go away because stepping over and making a
Speaker 4: decision in a red room is not a good idea.
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned at designing hospitals. I would like
Speaker 1: to think someone who's designing a hospital where recovery in
Speaker 1: psychology of that is so important that someone's taking all
Speaker 1: of this into consideration.
Speaker 4: Well, I have produced a whole paper on that that
Speaker 4: actually gives architect and hospital designers all the information on that.
Speaker 4: Did you know that orange is infect and pain reliever? People?
Speaker 4: If you put an orange board at the foot of
Speaker 4: a bit, people will ask for pain reliever a lot
Speaker 4: less than they do is surrounded with other colors.
Speaker 1: Lisa Taylor. They're reflecting on their incredible journey as a
Speaker 1: color analyst and forecaster. Seven notes you'll listening to the
Speaker 1: Money Shows Best Bids Investment School this week. Vincent Anthony Raja,
Speaker 1: the CEO co founder a Differential Capital, looking at the
Speaker 1: real surge we've seen in global markets. Why are we
Speaker 1: seeing so many markets doing so well at the moment,
Speaker 1: and particularly across our jas and in the US. He
Speaker 1: also looked at how long this upward momentum would last
Speaker 1: and how you manage your investments during this moment.
Speaker 5: So look is I think we need each of them separately. Now,
Speaker 5: if I take the case of South Africa, I think
Speaker 5: we've had a really interesting mix of companies that have
Speaker 5: driven this performance. So if I take one of the
Speaker 5: biggest components of our index, which is the NASPUS Process
Speaker 5: Conglomerate and their underlying holding which is ten cent, arguably
Speaker 5: that was quite undervalued over the last two years and
Speaker 5: it's just continued to deliver very strong sets of results.
Speaker 5: You know, despite the headlines about China, the revenue growth
Speaker 5: coming out of that one big component of our index
Speaker 5: is really really strong. And then also if you look
Speaker 5: at it still today, I mean if you look at
Speaker 5: their heart currency revenue growth, I mean it's in the teams,
Speaker 5: which is comparable to you know, the big tech company
Speaker 5: growth in the US. And when I say only, it's
Speaker 5: only on a price to earnings multiple over our eighteen
Speaker 5: and some would argue it's got more to go. And
Speaker 5: then also if you look at our other two components
Speaker 5: that have driven the terms this year, your precious Metals,
Speaker 5: your platinum and gold. That's been a big driver, and
Speaker 5: it's somewhat linked to what's happening in the US. So
Speaker 5: just before I go to that, so the records on
Speaker 5: the JC aren't really a function of let's call it
Speaker 5: the South Africa ink story, which I think is probably
Speaker 5: going to play out, you know, in the near future.
Speaker 5: But for what we're saying so far, it hasn't really
Speaker 5: been our South African stocks haven't driven that. Now if
Speaker 5: we look forward for South Africa, if a few things
Speaker 5: start to come right, you can imagine that this record
Speaker 5: high after record. I will continue then to briefly jump
Speaker 5: to the to the US. Stephen. You know, if you
Speaker 5: look at it, the earnings growth of the top ten
Speaker 5: companies on the S and P five hundred continues to
Speaker 5: be strong, continues to be surprising, and it's the rerating
Speaker 5: on those companies, the market willing to pay more and
Speaker 5: more for those that's driving that continued performance. There are
Speaker 5: question marks, however, about the rest of the S and
Speaker 5: P five hundred, where you know, earnings growth and earnings
Speaker 5: expectations seem to be stalling. So you know, there's some
Speaker 5: questions there.
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, I mean that there's a lot to
Speaker 1: unpack there. But in both cases it seems that it's
Speaker 1: just a small group of very large companies that are
Speaker 1: making this happen, as you say in the S and
Speaker 1: P and then here with Naspaz. So in other words,
Speaker 1: we should not mistake these records on the indices with
Speaker 1: the whole with what's happening with all of the companies.
Speaker 1: It's really just a few setting the pace. And obviously
Speaker 1: to throw it to add to that, the sort of
Speaker 1: magnificence seven the text shares in the US are like
Speaker 1: largely responsible for what's happening there. So it is a
Speaker 1: in some ways is a right to say it's a
Speaker 1: function of a couple of very successful, very big companies
Speaker 1: and it's and it's not an indication of everything else.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 5: And at the same time, in the case of South Africa,
Speaker 5: you've had precious metals, which if you look at the
Speaker 5: gold stocks, I mean, we all know what's been happening there.
Speaker 5: There's geopolitical risks that have really wrapped up the demand
Speaker 5: for gold from central banks from others, and that's driven
Speaker 5: that sector. So yeah, I think we can we can
Speaker 5: say that it's not a broad based rarey. Really it
Speaker 5: is concentrated in a few names.
Speaker 1: Okay, how interconnected then is the JAC with the US? Indice,
Speaker 1: so we don't rarely have a tech sector like the Nasdaq.
Speaker 1: Our tech sector kind of iss pats something unfair, but
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But we do also see
Speaker 1: a level of interconnectedness in how they've done every day.
Speaker 1: Sometimes not all the time, but often the same thing
Speaker 1: will affect them. So, I mean, it's quite an impossible
Speaker 1: question to answer, but they're not one hundred percent interconnected.
Speaker 1: The JAC doesn't follow the US and vice versa, but
Speaker 1: there is clearly a quite a strong level of interconnectedness.
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to get to is if the US
Speaker 1: stopped rising with the JC stopped rising, and like the
Speaker 1: obviously is answers sometimes yes and sometimes know.
Speaker 5: This is the way outlook at it. Even is what
Speaker 5: the market is pricing in for Let's call it the
Speaker 5: large tech stocks that everybody and myself included believe is
Speaker 5: going to be driving a material change in human productivity. Right,
Speaker 5: it's the AI revolution, Internet technology, et cetera. Now, increased
Speaker 5: productivity means a number of things, but when you sort
Speaker 5: of unpack it, what it means is probably a wealthier
Speaker 5: US as a result of more profitable companies. But at
Speaker 5: the same time, and let me just focus on that
Speaker 5: for a second. So more profits into the US, better
Speaker 5: demand for things, and that has a spillover effect into
Speaker 5: a lot of the countries that South Africa trades with,
Speaker 5: and that could eventually spill over to US. So, you know,
Speaker 5: when you think about what we export, beat food, beat
Speaker 5: the fact that more tourists will arrive in South Africa
Speaker 5: and a lot of the countries that we trade with,
Speaker 5: like you know, Europe and China, they benefit from a
Speaker 5: stronger US consumer, which is a consumer for the world.
Speaker 5: But then let's also focus on these textocks. I mean,
Speaker 5: what are they going to consume, you know, as they
Speaker 5: as they grow. You know, as you use more and
Speaker 5: more AI, you use more electricity, you use more copper,
Speaker 5: more minerals, and things like that. So I think there's
Speaker 5: a more closer link to to South Africa and other
Speaker 5: commodity linked countries emerging markets in that if if the
Speaker 5: broader market, the global equity market is right about what's
Speaker 5: happening in the US, we could see some direct spill
Speaker 5: over to demand for the commodities that we mine. Out
Speaker 5: of the ground and then there's an interesting pattern. And
Speaker 5: yeah at credit you know, some of the research I
Speaker 5: saw from investexs securities which sort of very interesting relationship
Speaker 5: between when South African resource resource stocks start to do
Speaker 5: really well and that's starting to happen, eventually that spills
Speaker 5: over into the South African economy. So if we just
Speaker 5: think about platinum, which is a recent substantially, you know,
Speaker 5: eventually that should translate into to wealth in the platinum
Speaker 5: regions of our country. And then and then we could
Speaker 5: see that filter into the other South African stocks. I
Speaker 5: don't know if that makes sense to even so I
Speaker 5: see sort of two drivers from the US that could
Speaker 5: help with what happens in South Africa.
Speaker 1: Okay, is it true? So the personal finance people will
Speaker 1: tell us and this sort of gets you into passive
Speaker 1: investing and come to that at the moment. We'll tell
Speaker 1: you that if you put money in the stock market
Speaker 1: for thirty years, it is going to grow. If you
Speaker 1: just did it over an index, it's going to grow.
Speaker 1: And the reason for that is that over time, people
Speaker 1: in societies get richer. So I was reminded when the
Speaker 1: jc all share crossed one hundred thousand for the first
Speaker 1: time that at one point it had actually just been
Speaker 1: one hundred. Now what is driving that? And is that
Speaker 1: just because over time economies grow? Yes, there are some
Speaker 1: that drink Babwe is a good example, unfortunately even in
Speaker 1: Venezuela is a good example. But generally speaking, barring massive
Speaker 1: accidents and wars, economies always grow. And if that's the case,
Speaker 1: if it was not for artificial intelligence, would we always
Speaker 1: still be having a record high in the US just
Speaker 1: because it always grows and so does ours generally?
Speaker 5: Sure? I mean, but let's unpack that for a little bit.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, when you say if it wasn't
Speaker 5: for artificial intelligence, there's a reason why companies profits grow,
Speaker 5: and the reason why profit companies profits compound in general
Speaker 5: at a macro level is because throughout time, you know,
Speaker 5: humanity has found a way to become more and more productive,
Speaker 5: and the AI is just the latest innovation that we
Speaker 5: have in that journey of increased productivity. So increased productivity
Speaker 5: purely means more profits, and that's really what drives let's
Speaker 5: call it overall valuations and returns because it translates to
Speaker 5: what dividends you can you can pay out and and
Speaker 5: so yes, that that is true that if you've got
Speaker 5: the broad ingredients for success at a macro level, and
Speaker 5: you would you would tend to see you know, productivity
Speaker 5: gains in that group of companies. But you just need
Speaker 5: to be careful. I mean, the comments that you made
Speaker 5: about you know, Zimbabwe and the others, those are those
Speaker 5: are pertinent. But also if you look at you know,
Speaker 5: economies like China, you know, for a long time, you
Speaker 5: know that equity market has actually been a terrible investment.
Speaker 5: So you go through periods in which that happens, you know,
Speaker 5: even for large economies, And which is why when you're
Speaker 5: sort of starting to look at the markets from that way,
Speaker 5: it just make sure that you're not taking any singular bets,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 1: M So, okay, if if companies tend to innovate and
Speaker 1: humans get better, why do some markets not really grow?
Speaker 1: I mean what's happened in China, And I realize that
Speaker 1: there are probably a million different reasons in each case
Speaker 1: will be quite different, whether it's you know, it just
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes we all know, we just go through that
Speaker 1: phase in the economy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so in many cases is geopolitical real reasons and
Speaker 5: let's call it suboptimal policy decisions. But at the same time,
Speaker 5: at the heart of it, you know, growth in productivity
Speaker 5: that sometimes comes at the cost of other companies and
Speaker 5: other industries. So if you think about what's happened in
Speaker 5: the US, yes, there s and P five hundred is
Speaker 5: up at all time eyes, Well, I can tell you
Speaker 5: can find a couple of companies, they're not a couple
Speaker 5: of many actually whose entire industries have been obliterated by
Speaker 5: the changes that have been coming through. And I think
Speaker 5: you also see that from countries to country. You know,
Speaker 5: if you take South Africa in the nineteen eighties, you know,
Speaker 5: gold mining stocks are much much, much bigger proportion of
Speaker 5: I Index, and then they went through a sort of
Speaker 5: decline and now they're sort of coming back. But that's
Speaker 5: what happens even when you look at a sectoral level.
Speaker 5: If you take through South African banks as an example,
Speaker 5: the success of Cafitech has certainly come at the cost
Speaker 5: of the competitors, and I would say even more so
Speaker 5: for some of the insurance companies whose lunch has been
Speaker 5: taken up by them. So I think that's just just
Speaker 5: the nature of it. And so again again going back
Speaker 5: to my point, just be careful. You know, when you
Speaker 5: start making sweeping statements that you know markets tend to
Speaker 5: go up. Just ensure that you're not concentrating yourself. In
Speaker 5: one singular investment.
Speaker 1: Vincent Anthony Raja there speaking about the really interesting surgeon
Speaker 1: market highs across South Africa and the US, and some
Speaker 1: advice on how to invest in this moment you will
Speaker 1: listening to the money shows, Best Bids your business. Book
Speaker 1: review Bronwyn Williams as the trend translator and future finance
Speaker 1: specialist of Flux Trends. She is a regular book reviewer,
Speaker 1: but we spoke to her about her own book, so
Speaker 1: we spoke to her this week. As an author. The
Speaker 1: title Survived the a I Apocalypse, a guide for Solutionists.
Speaker 1: She unpacked our Artificial Intelligence is reshaping reality from AI
Speaker 1: generated news Goodness Me to Virtual Partners and CEO Bronwyn
Speaker 1: Williams a fascinating conversation about a fascinating book.
Speaker 3: Well, we can blame the publisher for the title. I
Speaker 3: don't know how many of your listeners. Note, when you
Speaker 3: do write a book, both its title and the cover
Speaker 3: are not exactly the author's final but the content within
Speaker 3: the book definitely art. So maybe maybe a little bit
Speaker 3: of the hyperbole has made it through to the cover,
Speaker 3: but I think the point does stend and our thesis well,
Speaker 3: I've co wrote this book with white woman called Sharon Piers,
Speaker 3: who is a business transformation specialist and has been for
Speaker 3: many years. Is that for a lot of people, this
Speaker 3: whole thing of AI, combined with the forces of globalization,
Speaker 3: which really mean moving into a very very competitive space,
Speaker 3: all going to be outright traumatic and might feel a
Speaker 3: bit apocalyptic to many people who currently are in or
Speaker 3: trying to get back into the job market.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by a solutionist? I mean, I
Speaker 1: think we all think that we're good at solving problems.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know for a fact we're all. I've
Speaker 1: worked in talk radio for a while. We're all pretty
Speaker 1: good at talking and complaining about our problems. How would
Speaker 1: you describe a solutionist? Is it someone who works towards
Speaker 1: a solution, someone who comes up with solutions.
Speaker 3: Well, it's very simple. A solutionist to someone who sees
Speaker 3: a problem, identifies that problem, and then finds a way
Speaker 3: to solve that problem. I mean, you're really just talking
Speaker 3: about the good old thing of like how to start
Speaker 3: a business, be an entrepreneur, what do you do? You
Speaker 3: find a problem, you solve that problem. But what we're
Speaker 3: trying to say in the book is that it's not
Speaker 3: just people who currently identify as entrepreneurs, but really everyone,
Speaker 3: whether you employed currently unemployed, whether you run a business,
Speaker 3: whether you're part of a massive organization. Our thesis is
Speaker 3: everybody's got to see themselves as a solutionist because what's
Speaker 3: happening now with this apocalypse, to use the publisher's term,
Speaker 3: is that basically is a reckoning in terms of the
Speaker 3: value you are bringing to the economy and the price
Speaker 3: that you are charging. Those two figures have to be aligned,
Speaker 3: and quite frankly, they not aligned at the moment. There
Speaker 3: are many people who add a lot of value, solve
Speaker 3: a lot of problems, who are necessarily being concentsated. And
Speaker 3: on the flip side, the people are really talking to
Speaker 3: you are people who think that they add a lot
Speaker 3: of value to the economy, but maybe really don't. They
Speaker 3: just take home quite a big paycheck or think they
Speaker 3: do quite a big paycheck at the moment, and we're
Speaker 3: basically telling people you need to actually be adding value
Speaker 3: to whoever is paying you, whether that is a customer,
Speaker 3: whether that is an employer, whether that is an organization
Speaker 3: or individual. Somebody is your customer ultimately, and are you
Speaker 3: really adding value to that person or are you really
Speaker 3: just extracting value from an inefficient market. Because we certainly
Speaker 3: see that what's happening at the moment was digitization and
Speaker 3: ultimation and globalization, is that there's a lot of scrutinity
Speaker 3: on where the fact is sitting on the system and
Speaker 3: where there are people that are extracting distracting value. And
Speaker 3: two things that are happening. The one is quite fair
Speaker 3: that people who are extracting value and not adding value
Speaker 3: to society, whether they are overpaid consultants or whether they
Speaker 3: are overpaid people sitting in HR departments, whatever the case is,
Speaker 3: they're going to be found out. This is what all
Speaker 3: these forces are moving towards. But at the same time,
Speaker 3: the more unfair side of this, the darker side, we
Speaker 3: don't have a solution for, maybe someone listening does, is
Speaker 3: what's happening is that fact in the system is ending
Speaker 3: up being concentrated in the hands of quite a few
Speaker 3: or very few individual and individual companies. You know, this
Speaker 3: is a case of like wealth accumulating and the top
Speaker 3: not ten percents, not one percent, but sort of like
Speaker 3: point not one percent of the market, whether they like
Speaker 3: you get organizations or individuals. So as much as automation
Speaker 3: is destroying a lot of bs, it's also going to
Speaker 3: create new waves of it. But for us, those of
Speaker 3: us who are part of the trading plasts who have
Speaker 3: to negotiate in order to justify our paycheck or our
Speaker 3: place in the market, the pressure is on, the competition
Speaker 3: is on, and we don't have to be able to
Speaker 3: articulate the value that we add and define the problems.
Speaker 3: We are solving very very carefully. And the solution, as
Speaker 3: part of the book, is really a model that sharing
Speaker 3: is developed and I've helped to translate as that's what
Speaker 3: I do, basically a system as the harder people can
Speaker 3: check whether they are adding or not, and a few
Speaker 3: steps that they can take in order to start doing this.
Speaker 1: So so I think there is a sense and I
Speaker 1: think your publishers using this, So there's a sense that
Speaker 1: literally it's the end of the world as we know it,
Speaker 1: And I'm supposed to feel fine, but I don't. And
Speaker 1: what I've seen, because I'm now old enough, is that
Speaker 1: people will say the world is going to change very quickly,
Speaker 1: and the world changes quickly and slowly at the same time.
Speaker 1: And that's a strange thing. But I often notice that
Speaker 1: people say all of these jobs are going to be
Speaker 1: gone in ten years time, and actually you find some
Speaker 1: of those people are still doing very similar things. Well
Speaker 1: they're using the same skill to do something that's almost
Speaker 1: the same, but there's a different delivery system or something.
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, that is part of it. That's where
Speaker 3: the sort of hyperboleum the whole AI and automation sort
Speaker 3: of conversation and a glocalization migration conversation, which is really
Speaker 3: part of a competition on landscape that we find ourselves in.
Speaker 3: It is a part of right. This is this idea
Speaker 3: that all our jobs are under threat and everything's going
Speaker 3: to change over night. That's not the case. What's really
Speaker 3: happening is the concentration, as I said, of value. So
Speaker 3: for some people, things don't change. For a very few
Speaker 3: stick people, things change very very well in their favor.
Speaker 3: For the most of us, we're gonna have to work
Speaker 3: that a little bit faster, harder, run that little bit
Speaker 3: faster on the treadmill in order to justify our place
Speaker 3: in the economic scheme of things. And this is the
Speaker 3: way it gets really really hard in that overall the
Speaker 3: whole things, the world's moving quite slowly, and all those
Speaker 3: like really scary numbers put up by the World Becoming
Speaker 3: Forum are hyperbole, They are nonsense, and they say all
Speaker 3: these jobs are going to disappear. But what is going
Speaker 3: to happen is these jobs are going to concentrate, and
Speaker 3: these jobs are going to change. The tasks you do
Speaker 3: within your job is going to change. But also there's
Speaker 3: extra chairs being pulled out of the sort of the
Speaker 3: game of like ring a rosie that you're playing, or
Speaker 3: musical chairs that you're playing, which means that every time
Speaker 3: that's the music plays and every single cycle, you know,
Speaker 3: for the greater concentration as wealth, but a fewer seats
Speaker 3: at the table and seats the table. Very specifically, here
Speaker 3: have been job jobs, the salary output not so defined,
Speaker 3: but income very defined, the arrangement of work. But many
Speaker 3: of us, particularly in South Africa, understand as being economically independent,
Speaker 3: try to so idear of having a job. But the
Speaker 3: truth is there's going to be less jobs, and the
Speaker 3: jobs that are there are going to be concentrating in
Speaker 3: terms of where where those opportunities lie. So you see,
Speaker 3: for most of us, it's going to be a case
Speaker 3: of more precarious employment, and employment itself is going to shift,
Speaker 3: and we're going to have to justify our place in
Speaker 3: the value chaits. That's part of the mindset shift we're
Speaker 3: trying to explain here, is thinking beyond being a finding
Speaker 3: a job and becoming a salary dependent worker in a corporation,
Speaker 3: towards how do I identify myself as kind of like
Speaker 3: this incorporated individual, which lot something many people want to
Speaker 3: have trained economists. I know that most people would happily
Speaker 3: trade a bit of freedom for security, But what we're
Speaker 3: saying really is that security is being taken away from
Speaker 3: the majority of us, and we're going to have to
Speaker 3: learn how to swim and choppierwards face more uncertainty, which
Speaker 3: is something that of course I've said most of my
Speaker 3: career looking at uncertainty and features and all of this.
Speaker 3: So hopefully the book gives people that are perspective on
Speaker 3: where the nonsense is or where the bs is, and where
Speaker 3: where the truth of the story is, which really is
Speaker 3: a personal reckoning of use. Joanny in front of the
Speaker 3: Mirra say what is the value I add to society honestly,
Speaker 3: not what is the work that I do? Not where
Speaker 3: am I busy? Not why am I tired? But actually,
Speaker 3: what is the value that I'm adding here? Britney, there's
Speaker 3: all of us have values to add.
Speaker 1: That was Bronwan Williams giving you a look into the
Speaker 1: future shape by artificial intelligence. Her book. It's called Survive
Speaker 1: the AI Apocalypse, A Guide for Solutionists. I must tell
Speaker 1: you I didn't really like the apocalypse part, but I
Speaker 1: quite like the survive part of that type.
Speaker 4: The best of The Money Show on seven.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to the best bits of The Money Show,
Speaker 1: a digest of some of the best conversations, some of
Speaker 1: the best thoughts, best inside spast comments this week. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to hear more, please go to our website,
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Speaker 1: Money Show. Thanks for the being with us this week.
Speaker 1: Back on The Money Show six o'clock on Monday. Have
Speaker 1: a good weekend.