Speaker 1: The next conversation is a really important one.
Speaker 2: We're talking about where the narcissists can really change. And
Speaker 2: we live in such an unforgiving society. We are people that,
Speaker 2: you know, we've got standards for everyone but ourselves. Sometimes
Speaker 2: and you think you can change and you can be
Speaker 2: a better person and stop whatever you're doing, because we're
Speaker 2: all flawed, we all have issues. But for some.
Speaker 1: Reason, you don't think the next person can change. The
Speaker 1: next person.
Speaker 2: Oh, they've gone too far. There's not coming back for them.
Speaker 2: You know, he's a narcissist. Okay, he'll never be okay,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I don't even know if people
Speaker 2: use narcissism with women, right, it's very seldom. We year
Speaker 2: people here. We hear people saying a woman is a narcissist.
Speaker 2: You hear it now and again. But I think it's
Speaker 2: used a lot to describe men. And that's a conversation
Speaker 2: we're gonna be having now with Carrie Redman. And you
Speaker 2: excuse me, you're a feedback specialist and founder of Brain
Speaker 2: Harmonics in South Africa.
Speaker 1: Carrie, good evening and welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Haafy, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean in our intro and in the
Speaker 2: conversation that we were having a little earlier, as I was,
Speaker 2: you know, introducing the show or apologies for that, I'm
Speaker 2: so sorry.
Speaker 1: It's Jessica Swartz.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: Apologies for that. We did get your name wrong right
Speaker 2: on the runner. But yes, Jessica, welcome and thank you
Speaker 2: so much for joining us. I was saying at the
Speaker 2: start of our conversation that the term narcissist is one
Speaker 2: that's used quite a bit and very used loosely and
Speaker 2: almost very recklessly.
Speaker 1: Sometimes do is that not? So?
Speaker 3: That is a lot of the time, the second someone
Speaker 3: displays any sense of self importance or self confidence, I
Speaker 3: should say a lot of the time, it can be
Speaker 3: characterized as narcissism.
Speaker 1: And is it always No.
Speaker 3: It's nice. Sometimes someone is simply just arrogant. It doesn't
Speaker 3: necessarily mean they are a narcissist.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's become people have started using the
Speaker 2: two interchangeably, where sometimes you just mean this this man
Speaker 2: is arrogant, Well, this person is arrogant, But then we
Speaker 2: use the term narcissism. I want us to start with
Speaker 2: narcissistic personality disorder, because that's a health condition.
Speaker 3: Isn't it, it is, yes.
Speaker 1: What is it? And how do you know? You may
Speaker 1: have NPD?
Speaker 3: So the really the way that you would know is
Speaker 3: you would have to have a professional diagnosis. But narcissistic
Speaker 3: personality to disorder is someone who has an exaggerated sense
Speaker 3: of self importance. They are often quite charming. They that's
Speaker 3: how they lure you, is they charm you, They chart
Speaker 3: you to get what they want and then they switch. Now,
Speaker 3: when it comes to narcissism and narcissists, a lot of
Speaker 3: people often wonder like why me, why what? Like those
Speaker 3: are my fault? And the thing is it's not. That's
Speaker 3: what a narcissist does. They look for people who are
Speaker 3: very empathetic. They look for people who have low self
Speaker 3: love or things like that, and then they charm you
Speaker 3: and the manipulate you to get what they want.
Speaker 2: You know, I've seen people saying that there's a difference
Speaker 2: between a narcissist and a person with narcissistic personality disorder?
Speaker 1: Is that the case?
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't say so. For my opinion, personally, I
Speaker 3: think that someone with narcissistic personality disorder is more it's like,
Speaker 3: more high profile behavior than what is commonly known as
Speaker 3: a narcissist. That is a differentiation that I would make personally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're saying with the disorder would have to
Speaker 2: be diagnosed and you'd have to have seen a professional
Speaker 2: to diagnose you.
Speaker 3: That is correct.
Speaker 1: Yes, how does that work? So?
Speaker 2: So I mean, what what symptoms can one look out for?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it sounds it sounds odd, and
Speaker 2: it sounds like something funny when you think, am I arrogant?
Speaker 1: Do I think too highly of myself?
Speaker 3: Do I?
Speaker 1: And then maybe I should go get checked out? Is
Speaker 1: that how it works?
Speaker 3: So not necessarily like Some personality traits that anarcissist may
Speaker 3: have is they think they are more important than everyone else.
Speaker 3: They are very self censive. They can be overly controlling,
Speaker 3: and I know people there's a difference between puggressive and controlling,
Speaker 3: and when I say overly controlling, I mean and full
Speaker 3: control of everything all the time. They often get upset
Speaker 3: when they feel slightly criticized. They will make any conversation
Speaker 3: about them. It's basically someone who's entire world rules around me.
Speaker 3: How can I make this about me? How can I
Speaker 3: use you to get what I want? So those are
Speaker 3: definitely key traits of a narcissist.
Speaker 2: We're speaking narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 1: Can a narcissist really change? Right?
Speaker 2: On seven oh two Jessica Swartz a neuro feedback practitioner,
Speaker 2: and she's with Brain Harmonics talking us through narcissism. And
Speaker 2: I keep saying it's it's a buzzword right now, everyone
Speaker 2: says that one's a narcissist, he's a narcissist.
Speaker 1: Oh, I left because he's a narcissist. Oh I can't
Speaker 1: because he's narcissistic.
Speaker 2: But I also do think there should be a concerted
Speaker 2: effort to understand what exactly it is. We're taking your
Speaker 2: calls on zero double one double A three oh seven
Speaker 2: oh two O to one double four six oh five
Speaker 2: six seven. If you'd rather send us an S mess
Speaker 2: it's three one seven O two that's the S mess number,
Speaker 2: and on whatsip zero seven two zero seven two seven
Speaker 2: oh two one seven oh two. So get in touch
Speaker 2: with us. Have you been in contact with an narcissistic person?
Speaker 2: Are you of the opinion that they can come back
Speaker 2: from that? Get in touch with us. We'd love to
Speaker 2: hear from you, Jessica. That brings me to my next question.
Speaker 2: Since it is something that can be diagnosed, is it
Speaker 2: also something that can be medicated?
Speaker 3: So, Jessica, can you hear me? I'm sorry, I think
Speaker 3: I cut out.
Speaker 1: A little bit. Yes, yes, like we can hear you now.
Speaker 3: Okay, So it's not necessarily a trade that can be
Speaker 3: medicated because it's not I'm not quite sure how the
Speaker 3: word I'm looking for. It's more of a thing that
Speaker 3: your brain created as a protective layer almost, So it's
Speaker 3: not like VPD or schizophrenia where there are medications to
Speaker 3: help it. Like I said, a lot of people confuse
Speaker 3: being arrogant or overconfident with narcissism. So the main thing
Speaker 3: that would help a narcissist or cure a narcissism would
Speaker 3: be them taking accountability and you know, go into therapy
Speaker 3: and talking about you know, first of what you know
Speaker 3: they upbringing was what caused their brain to go into
Speaker 3: this and make the transition into protecting themselves so much
Speaker 3: so that where they can't be vulnerable.
Speaker 1: H Okay.
Speaker 2: So it's something that would have to be dealt with
Speaker 2: in therapy. Yes, oh okay, And I mean then I
Speaker 2: suppose this is an inverted commerce. Can a narcissist or
Speaker 2: a narcissism be quote unquote cured.
Speaker 3: Yes, but it is extremely rare and difficult because, like
Speaker 3: I said, you know, the person has to take accountability,
Speaker 3: they have to want to change and seek helpful themselves.
Speaker 3: You know, if I was a narcissist, then you're trying
Speaker 3: to say, you know, Jessica, you need to get help
Speaker 3: or you know, we need to address these things, and
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily want to. I'm going to stay in
Speaker 3: that same mindset of I'm not the problem. I'm the
Speaker 3: victim here. You know, I'm not going to take accountability
Speaker 3: for those things, and I may resist going to therapy
Speaker 3: so it can be cured. But the person themselves, the
Speaker 3: narcissists themselves, would have to be the one to make
Speaker 3: that change.
Speaker 1: Ah, So to have to come from them.
Speaker 3: Good would yes?
Speaker 2: And how I mean generally people with this disorder are
Speaker 2: they good with introspection? I imagine they aren't because it's
Speaker 2: everyone else that's wrong and they're amazing and everything should
Speaker 2: be sent to them and they're the you know, the
Speaker 2: main character of life. I don't think it would be
Speaker 2: easy for them to introspect.
Speaker 3: No, you are one hundred percent correct, because remember, like
Speaker 3: we were saying they are the victim and their brain.
Speaker 3: It's your fault. You did this to me, you know,
Speaker 3: it's your fault that we have in this argument. They
Speaker 3: really do not think that they are a problem or
Speaker 3: to blame at all. So yeah, no, it would be
Speaker 3: very difficult for someone else to help them.
Speaker 2: And I mean, are they causes to this disorder you know,
Speaker 2: are bringing?
Speaker 1: Maybe? You know, are they causes? Or is that far
Speaker 1: too simplistic?
Speaker 3: So no, they are, you know, childhood upbringing, excessive praise
Speaker 3: or being overvalued. When a child is constantly told or
Speaker 3: they're special or they're better than others, they may learn
Speaker 3: to accept admiration without effort at all. Or it could
Speaker 3: be the exact opposite, excessive criticism and emotional neglect to
Speaker 3: where they feel like they never got enough. So then
Speaker 3: they develop this false sense and this inflated image to
Speaker 3: protect themselves from deep insecurity. Or it could be conditional
Speaker 3: love or conditional approval. You know, they may praise that
Speaker 3: admiration to feel worthy because they were only given God
Speaker 3: admiration if they performed as stressing way as a child.
Speaker 3: Of course, then the last example would be they grew
Speaker 3: up with narcissistic parents or emotional abuse that reinforced the
Speaker 3: manipulative and self censored behavior.
Speaker 2: I'm taking your calls on Is there a double one
Speaker 2: three seven to talk to us? Have you been in
Speaker 2: a relationship with a narcissist? Are you married to one?
Speaker 2: And how is it being, you know, in contact with
Speaker 2: a person like that, someone who is so self absorbed
Speaker 2: they're the main character of life. You know, someone who
Speaker 2: sees no wrong in themselves, but you know only it's
Speaker 2: it's other people. It's always other people who are wrong,
Speaker 2: Always other people who are the problem. Someone who thinks
Speaker 2: they are more important and matter more than everyone else.
Speaker 2: I want to hear from you. Give us a call
Speaker 2: so we can talk about it. I guess this evening
Speaker 2: talking us through narcissistic personality disorder is Jessica Swartz, and
Speaker 2: she is helping us make sense of the disorder. I'm
Speaker 2: learning a lot about it, and I hope you are too, Jessica.
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe let's also go into how can one
Speaker 2: cope with a narcissist? How do you especially one who
Speaker 2: is quote unquote unrepentant or doesn't want.
Speaker 1: To seek help.
Speaker 3: So there are quite a few ways to deal or
Speaker 3: cope with a narcissist. The first one I would definitely
Speaker 3: say is remember that it isn't your fault. Not everything
Speaker 3: is your fault. Well, so make sure that you kind
Speaker 3: of educate yourself about narcissism so that you can also
Speaker 3: kind of understand their point of view. I guess you
Speaker 3: could say, you know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: as difficult and horrible as it is to deal with
Speaker 3: a narcissist, I feel like it's always good to understand
Speaker 3: where they're coming from, you know, maybe understand the root
Speaker 3: of where their narcissism is coming from. Maintaining boundaries, Also
Speaker 3: establishing healthy boundary is you know, avoid arguments, As difficult
Speaker 3: as it may be, avoiding arguments is also a really
Speaker 3: good thing. Or considering therapy for yourself so that you know,
Speaker 3: you can also learn how to set healthier boundaries, like
Speaker 3: I've aforementioned, being confident in being seen. You know, those
Speaker 3: are just a few ways to deal with a narcissist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Anonymous, you're in So you had experience with a narcissist.
Speaker 1: Good evening, Welcome to the show Evening.
Speaker 4: Yes, I did for ten years, so it was a
Speaker 4: selling new relationship. So I just came from totial institution. Well,
Speaker 4: I came from my first year. I wasn't a relationship.
Speaker 4: This was my first boyfriend, and I didn't understand why
Speaker 4: whenever you would express yourself it would be like a courtroom.
Speaker 4: So you're the one less of problem. You're this, you're that.
Speaker 4: Youre so imagine as a young person experiencing that and
Speaker 4: not experiencing the full affection of a relationship. It took
Speaker 4: a long time for me to actually say, Okay, in
Speaker 4: actual fact, I'm not the problem here, right, And I'm
Speaker 4: still healing even ten plus years later, I'm still healing
Speaker 4: from it. It's a traumatic it's really traumatic. So for
Speaker 4: for somebody to actually say, you must understand the narcissist.
Speaker 4: You can never understand the nas I write my experience
Speaker 4: and never understood this person because he chose a path
Speaker 4: of you're wrong, and you're wrong constant constantly.
Speaker 1: He's never wrong.
Speaker 2: And and at what point did you realize that you're
Speaker 2: in a relationship with a narcissist.
Speaker 4: It took my mother to actually open my eyes, you know, so,
Speaker 4: so you know, like where you because it's your first relationship,
Speaker 4: you've never had, You've never dealt with any relationship with
Speaker 4: any other person. Right, So it took somebody else to
Speaker 4: actually open my eyes and and and and and show
Speaker 4: me an experience of what love is supposed to be.
Speaker 4: This is not love, this is actually you're in a courtroom,
Speaker 4: a constant courtroom that is never ending, you know. And
Speaker 4: he would do whatever he wanted. He would go cheating,
Speaker 4: and it will be a play for him to do that.
Speaker 4: And if you address it, then you're the problem.
Speaker 2: It's all your fault.
Speaker 4: It's because of this because somebody died in your family.
Speaker 4: You can't be emotional about it.
Speaker 1: And you said, ten years later.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a long time. It took a long
Speaker 4: time to actually recognize that I am actually not the problem. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that person is the problem, you know. So yeah, so narcissists,
Speaker 4: I think it's just in the DNA. We can say
Speaker 4: that they might there must be some adade thing that
Speaker 4: that occurs in their upbringing, but it's like it's in
Speaker 4: it's in them in their DNA. You can never cheat
Speaker 4: the narcissist.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's it's chronic, chronic thing.
Speaker 2: And and if I may anonymous ten years on, how
Speaker 2: is this affected your other relationships? Are you in a
Speaker 2: in a long term relationship.
Speaker 4: Now, No, I don't trust. I don't trust anybody now.
Speaker 4: Like I think also, if I experience a certain level
Speaker 4: of maybe an argument and and there's no peace within
Speaker 4: that argument or even like a normal conversation, I would
Speaker 4: rather just shut down and away from that and just
Speaker 4: remove myself from that because it's a trigger. It's a
Speaker 4: it's a it's terrible. It's terrible. Yeah, the trigger, so
Speaker 4: I've seen, it gives me basically like some form of PTSD.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it took a long time to actually built
Speaker 4: myself up again. I'm in a good place. I'm in
Speaker 4: a good place. I'm obviously not completely feels but I'm
Speaker 4: in a good place.
Speaker 1: And are you getting help?
Speaker 4: Are you?
Speaker 1: Are you getting serious?
Speaker 4: Definity? Definitely definity? So whatever trigger? So what my my
Speaker 4: my therapist stated that I whatever triggers that I experienced,
Speaker 4: I just have to just move myself from it because
Speaker 4: obviously I will develop anxiety issues and you know, and
Speaker 4: hyperventilate like it will be that bad, it will be
Speaker 4: that bad. So so so that that helps a lot,
Speaker 4: you know, that helps a lot. But I removed myself
Speaker 4: from anything that creates prayers in my life removes them.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, so that's my part of my Yeah, Altamus,
Speaker 2: I just want to I want to thank you so
Speaker 2: much for being so vulnerable with us this evening.
Speaker 1: And sure yeah and and and I wish you all
Speaker 1: the best, you know, yeah, and I wish you healing.
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: I mean, Jessica, is does a sound familiar the fact
Speaker 2: that the effects of the behaviors of narcissists that's not
Speaker 2: a long lasting, are so long lasting on the lives
Speaker 2: of others, particularly those affected by them.
Speaker 3: It does, you know, and it is an unfortunate thing
Speaker 3: that it takes so long to heal. And you know,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't wish that on anyone. And the unfortunate part
Speaker 3: of it is it is so common and it does
Speaker 3: take a long time to heal because remember especially you know,
Speaker 3: like Anonymous said, it was a long term relationship. So
Speaker 3: when someone is constantly saying, this is your fault, you
Speaker 3: know this is because of you, and you know you
Speaker 3: are now conditioned to think, oh, it is my fault.
Speaker 3: You know this is because of me. So you know,
Speaker 3: that's just one of the examples, and it's going to
Speaker 3: take a long time for you to be like, actually,
Speaker 3: it's not Actually I didn't do anything wrong. So it's
Speaker 3: things like that where you kind of have to teach
Speaker 3: yourself that you weren't the problem.
Speaker 2: And I think an important question to raise awareness but
Speaker 2: also to debunk some myths. Narcissism is not a gender
Speaker 2: It's not gender dependence, right, It's not a male thing
Speaker 2: or a female thing.
Speaker 3: Not, it's not not. Anyone can be a narcissist, male, female,
Speaker 3: in between, doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: Do you know why more it's always used in relation
Speaker 2: or to describe men more than it is to describe women.
Speaker 1: Is it because women just like to use the word, So.
Speaker 3: That could be the reason. Can you please repeat that
Speaker 3: last little bit.
Speaker 2: I didn't No, no, no, I'm just saying, you know,
Speaker 2: and and quite we might not know. I'm just saying,
Speaker 2: you know, it's interesting, and I wonder why why it's
Speaker 2: often used, you know, to describe men, you know, especially
Speaker 2: now that we understand that it's a disorder and can
Speaker 2: affect everyone, you know, I it it has me wondering
Speaker 2: why why is it used often to describe men?
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I'm so sorry. The first time you asked
Speaker 3: that question, I thought you said something else, but no,
Speaker 3: So it is used more to the describe men because
Speaker 3: more men are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disupport it. And
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that you know, no woman can have
Speaker 3: can be a narcissist. It is just that men display
Speaker 3: more characteristics. Based on science and studies, cultural and gender
Speaker 3: normal society often does encourage narcissistic traits and men like
Speaker 3: you know, toughness, independence, status, emotional detachments as well traits
Speaker 3: like ambition and confidence and assertiveness. Those all praised and
Speaker 3: men so again, like one of the reason is when
Speaker 3: constant things like that are being praised, it can develop
Speaker 3: into a constant need for the praise for those things.
Speaker 2: Jessica Swartz, I want to thank you so much for
Speaker 2: coming on the show and just helping us make sense
Speaker 2: of narcissism.