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Speaker 1: Hanging out with Clement on.

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Speaker 2: Seven o two let's walk the talk, and today on

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Speaker 2: our hanging out feature, we've got the UCT Vice Chancellor,

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Speaker 2: Professor Mosa Moshabella. This man is someone who's life work

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Speaker 2: has been dedicated to improving the health and wellbeing of others.

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Speaker 2: He's a medical doctor, he is an academic, he's a

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Speaker 2: public health expert. He's a leader in high education. We

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Speaker 2: spoke to him a lot. In fact, you'll probably remember

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Speaker 2: during the COVID nineteen pandemic, when all of us we're

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out what is this thing, how does

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Speaker 2: it affect us? How do we protect ourselves from it?

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Speaker 2: He was one of those experts who really helped us

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Speaker 2: navigate that un chatted territory. And he's here with us

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Speaker 2: in studio and I'm looking forward to getting to know

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Speaker 2: him better. Prov Thank you so much for making time

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Speaker 2: for us. Good morning, welcome to studio.

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Speaker 1: Good good morning, Clement, and good morning to the listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's to chat to you. I'm from Cape Town

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Speaker 2: now because you live here. Now, how long has it

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Speaker 2: been now since you've taken over the Royal at UCITY. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I joined on the first of August in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: So I arrived in Cape Town in July of twenty four,

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Speaker 1: in the middle of winter. And it's now been twenty

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Speaker 1: months since I've been here, just four months shy of two.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And how has it been so far? I

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Speaker 2: remember because I've had a conversation with you after you

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Speaker 2: were appointed. I think we spoke on television and I asked,

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Speaker 2: how do you think you want to do things at UCITY,

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Speaker 2: especially given that the institution has really gone through it

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Speaker 2: to Melchius period before you came in. How has it

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Speaker 2: been then so far?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say it lament that leading

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Speaker 1: U City it's a big job. It's a very complex institution.

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Speaker 1: And because I was coming in as an outsider to

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Speaker 1: uc Tea, to Cape Town, to the Western Cape, it

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Speaker 1: was a very steep linen curve. But I think after

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Speaker 1: about a year I started to feel a little bit

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Speaker 1: more settled in. Now, at this point, sort of twenty

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Speaker 1: months into the job, I'm a lot more comfortable in

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Speaker 1: my role and position. But I can tell you that

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Speaker 1: it's been tough. It's a tough job to run the institution.

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Speaker 1: For the most part, there are moments where there's a

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Speaker 1: few things that are fine and exciting, but for the

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Speaker 1: most part, it's a tough.

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Speaker 2: Job that's fascinating, and I mean it's a beast you see, tea, right,

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Speaker 2: And we'll talk more about that much later, but I

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Speaker 2: always want us to start our conversations on the hanging

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Speaker 2: out future from the beginning your upbringing, and I'm wondering

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Speaker 2: if ever you thought at any time in your life

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Speaker 2: that you would end up as vice chancellor of U City,

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Speaker 2: especially given you know the context around you have. You've

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Speaker 2: applied there before, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've got rejected, rejected, So I mean, look.

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Speaker 2: At you, know how you're back and you're the vice

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Speaker 2: chancellor of the same institution that rejected you how many

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Speaker 2: years ago? So yeah, ago, yeah, How how do you

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Speaker 2: rationalize that? And did you ever think at some point

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Speaker 2: in your life that I would end up leading that institution?

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Speaker 1: No way, no way. I mean even if you asked me,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're going back to childhood. Even if you

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Speaker 1: asked me like three years ago when I was already

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Speaker 1: deputy vice chancellor at Duks then for Research and Innovation,

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Speaker 1: and said, oh, do you think you can be the

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Speaker 1: vision slow for you city out of said no, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, so it is that far fetched that there's

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Speaker 1: no way in my childhood that I would have even

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Speaker 1: imagined anything like that, especially kind of growing up in

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Speaker 1: a village. You know, you just your dreams are limited

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Speaker 1: to what you see around you. You think you're going

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Speaker 1: to be a nurse or a teacher, or police officer

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Speaker 1: or policeman. You know, you know, you're limited by what

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Speaker 1: you see around you. So we don't dream like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how was your upbringing Like, were you fascinated about

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Speaker 2: the world of medicine though growing up? Or you're not

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Speaker 2: seeing doctors that looked like you, so you didn't think

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Speaker 2: it was possible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I kind of wanted to become a

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Speaker 1: doctor when I started high school. And it was not

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Speaker 1: because I was seeing doctors around me, not at all.

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Speaker 1: It was because I grew up looking after my grandmother

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Speaker 1: who who had stroke and had a career condition. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, in hindsight, now I know what she had.

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Speaker 1: At the time I didn't know so, and she was paralyzed.

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Speaker 1: I had to look after her and now and then

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Speaker 1: she would have sort of attacks and get really sick.

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Speaker 1: And we would have to take it to the hospital,

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Speaker 1: and the hospital was to me very far away, and

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Speaker 1: I would have to go and get my uncle, who

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Speaker 1: was a teacher, and to use his vehicle to basically

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Speaker 1: go and take it to the hospital. And that's where

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Speaker 1: I would have a glimpse of what it's like to

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Speaker 1: be in a hospital environment. And because of the difference

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Speaker 1: that I saw the doctors make in her life and

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Speaker 1: the fact that when I'm panicking beforehand and we take

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Speaker 1: it to the hospital, I'm thinking we might lose it,

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Speaker 1: but then when we come back, she's fine. I could

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Speaker 1: see the power of medicine and the work of the

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Speaker 1: doctors in saving lives and basically helping us to have

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Speaker 1: around us people that we love and care about that

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Speaker 1: we would otherwise lose if it wasn't for them. That

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Speaker 1: that's that's where my interest came from.

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Speaker 2: That's that's that's so fascinating. And once you decided then

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Speaker 2: what you really wanted to study? When then do you

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Speaker 2: did you feel, actually, I want to be more in

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Speaker 2: the academic space, like I want to spend a lot

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Speaker 2: of time there. What what? What? What sort of drove

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Speaker 2: you towards that direction?

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Speaker 1: I didn't really choose it. So once once I studied

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Speaker 1: medicine and I was practicing, I entered the field of

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Speaker 1: medicine around two thousand and two, and we were sort

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Speaker 1: of the first group to be trained properly in HIV.

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Speaker 2: Oh so it was just right after that hivnihilism exactly.

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Speaker 1: So then at that time, you know, the big year

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Speaker 1: was the year too where there was that big conference

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Speaker 1: in Durban. So we were the kind of the first

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Speaker 1: group that came out of medical school a little bit

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Speaker 1: more trained. And when we got to practice, our seniors

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Speaker 1: were not familiar with HIV. So those of us who

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Speaker 1: were young doctors at the time, and hospitals were getting

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Speaker 1: full with the HIV patients, we started having to actually

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Speaker 1: take that on ourselves. So I got involved in setting

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Speaker 1: up HIV services and HIV clinics. And because it was

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Speaker 1: a new condition, we had to read a lot, and

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Speaker 1: we had to read a lot of science imaging literature.

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Speaker 1: Every time there was this explosion of new knowledge. And

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Speaker 1: because we were still out of medical school, still excited,

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Speaker 1: and our seniors were not interested in this thing that

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Speaker 1: they don't fully understand, we had to take it on.

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Speaker 1: And by doing that I got exposed to research and

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Speaker 1: to science and the important of being up to date

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Speaker 1: in science. And that's what led me to be interested

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Speaker 1: in research and science and scientific knowledge and the important

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Speaker 1: role that it plays in helping us know the advances

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Speaker 1: in medicine that can help us deal with new conditions.

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Speaker 1: So that that was my initial interest. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: in medical school, I knew about research, but we were

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Speaker 1: reading mostly textbooks, and textbooks, as we often say, they

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Speaker 1: get outdated quickly. But the notion of reading journals and

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Speaker 1: keeping up to date with new knowledge is something that

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Speaker 1: I learned because of the explosion of knowledge in HIV.

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Speaker 1: And again we saw that similar thing later with COVID,

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Speaker 1: But my initial sort of introduction and induction around this

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Speaker 1: was was around HIV, and that led me to say, actually,

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Speaker 1: one to understand research, I want to be able to

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Speaker 1: read a scientific paper properly, critique it, properly understand it,

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Speaker 1: and decide what to adopt, what to use in my

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Speaker 1: daily practice from reading journal articles, and then I went

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Speaker 1: into research. That's what led to academic and academic journey.

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Speaker 2: So when COVID nineteen hitters were you one of the

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Speaker 2: public health experts, we thought, oh, it's going to be

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Speaker 2: interesting to figure out what this is. Were you like

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Speaker 2: many of us who went, oh my god, what is

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Speaker 2: going on? Is this the end of us as humanity?

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Speaker 1: You know? I have to say, in as much as

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Speaker 1: I was interested in infectious diseases and I was involved

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Speaker 1: in infectious diseases when COVID nineteen first hit and we

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Speaker 1: heard about it in January of twenty twenty, for me,

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Speaker 1: it was also someone else's problem. It was not something

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Speaker 1: that I thought that I would be involved in hours

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Speaker 1: at the time, I'm, you know, the dean of School

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Speaker 1: of Public Health. I had a job, I had work

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Speaker 1: to do, I was busy, I had my own research projects,

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Speaker 1: I had my students. So it was going to be

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Speaker 1: someone else's problem. And then two things happened. One was,

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Speaker 1: towards the end of January, I was approached to actually

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Speaker 1: provide information, and then I said to them that, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't know media was asking. I was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know about this. This is not really something that

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Speaker 1: I do. And then the first week of February I

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Speaker 1: traveled to Singapore for a meeting. And when I was

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Speaker 1: in Singapore, they told us a little bit of what

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Speaker 1: they were doing around COVID, and they had experienced the

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two SARS epidemic, and that happened years ago,

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Speaker 1: and they had experience, and because of that experience, they

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Speaker 1: were sharing not only what they were experiencing in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: but what they experienced the last time. And it started

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Speaker 1: to open my eyes that, hang on, this is going

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Speaker 1: to be serious. On the last day that I was

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Speaker 1: there in Singapore, they had their first case where they

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Speaker 1: could not identify a source. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: remember the way we were classifying different levels of COVID

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Speaker 1: nineteen spread. I'm sure this memory is so far fatt

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Speaker 1: to everyone that so we would say that if a

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Speaker 1: person is having COVID nineteen and they had not traveled,

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Speaker 1: they had not been in contact with the non case

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Speaker 1: of travel, then we called it local transmission, so which

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Speaker 1: means that it's already here, you know, It's not something

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Speaker 1: that they got from somewhere else. Right, And they had

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Speaker 1: the first case. At the time, I think they had

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Speaker 1: only twelve cases that were important, and then they had

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Speaker 1: their first case of local transmission and I left the hotel.

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Speaker 1: It was normal business. When I came back to the

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Speaker 1: hotel in the afternoon, everything was upside down, like the

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Speaker 1: whole city has shifted. And even now when we're coming

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Speaker 1: back to the hotel, there was a queue, there was

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Speaker 1: cleaning us, and there was sanitizes us things that were

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Speaker 1: not there in the morning. And that transition, that transformation

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Speaker 1: that I saw from morning to afternoon, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, this place operates like a machine. And

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Speaker 1: I started thinking about our own context. I was like,

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Speaker 1: there is no way. I was like, our people are

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Speaker 1: going to die, you know, there is no way we

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Speaker 1: are going to be as prepared as these people are

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Speaker 1: so exactly. And so that's what led me to do that.

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Speaker 1: And when I came back, I because of that transmission,

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Speaker 1: I just decided to isolate for two weeks. And during

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Speaker 1: that isolation it was hard. It was hard because I

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Speaker 1: took myself into isolation and it was hard, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't know how people are going to

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Speaker 1: do this when this thing eventually comes. There's no way

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Speaker 1: this is going to be easy. That's what prompted me

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Speaker 1: to put together a proposal to set up a COVID

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Speaker 1: nineteen World Room at the UK's en And that's where

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Speaker 1: the story began.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean that that really helped us, because

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Speaker 2: I mean, I remember us siven as broadcasters. You know,

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Speaker 2: listeners are calling in and they want to know what's

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Speaker 2: going on, So going and having access to public health

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Speaker 2: experts like yourselves really helped us navigate that period a

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Speaker 2: lot easier. We've got your some of your favorite songs

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Speaker 2: here that we're also going to play as we play

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Speaker 2: along as we speak. And I mean, I love Joan

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Speaker 2: as Ganga, I love turn this Summers. I love We've

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Speaker 2: seen Alascela. When I saw the name Sahara, I thought

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Speaker 2: this is so good because I haven't actually heard one

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Speaker 2: of her songs in quite a while, and I think

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Speaker 2: that would probably be where we begin with Zahara Umtala.

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Speaker 2: But tell me first why this is a special song

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 1: I was, I was. I was traveling from Rwanda and

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Speaker 1: and I think Zahara had been performing in in in

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Speaker 1: Rwanda in Kigai, and I think she had also gone

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Speaker 1: there to get an award. So as we were coming

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Speaker 1: out of the flight, she was carrying her award, and

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Speaker 1: so we started chatting and started telling me this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and she ended up telling me a whole lot of stories,

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Speaker 1: and I was just struck by by the sort of

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Speaker 1: burden that she was going through. And it also helped

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Speaker 1: me to reflect quite a bit about my own life.

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Speaker 1: And when you when I was thinking about the songs,

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Speaker 1: my mind just went back to that memory because you know,

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Speaker 1: as I told you, even my sort of my sort

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Speaker 1: of job now, I mean, it's it's tough, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a burden, and I it made me think about the

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Speaker 1: different ways in which we're navigating the burdens of life.

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Speaker 1: And there and they're told that it has on us,

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Speaker 1: whether people see it or not.

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Speaker 2: So and sometimes people don't see it. That's it, and

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Speaker 2: we're not able.

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Speaker 1: To extend the sort of kindness and compassion that is

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Speaker 1: needed because we don't see it and people are not

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Speaker 1: vocal enough to actually say it out loud.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's Sahara Withalo oh Man. Sahara may have so

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Speaker 2: rest in eternal peace. What what a talent? Hey? What

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Speaker 2: a talent? All right? Your calls on one one eight

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Speaker 2: eight three h seven O two. You can send a

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Speaker 2: what's up as well on seven to seven O two

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Speaker 2: one seven o two. Maybe you've got a question for

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Speaker 2: Professor Moshabella, or you just want to say hi, give

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Speaker 2: us a call or send the what's up professor and

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Speaker 2: Mohale calling us from johannes By. Good morning, prov.

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Speaker 3: Uh Clement here you maybe say, look, congratulator my brother,

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Speaker 3: Professor Musa, that it is wonderful to be in the

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Speaker 3: presence of dignified greatness from the blackpool of excellence. But

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Speaker 3: to that's what I'm there, germon Strait beyond any shadow

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Speaker 3: of doubt that South Africa is poor by choice, not

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Speaker 3: because we lack talented, committ head or hard waiting people.

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Speaker 3: I've worked with him for years, but most recently when

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Speaker 3: we were organizing the G twenty as part of the

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Speaker 3: Velus twenty. You can see that the young man never sleeps.

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Speaker 3: Congratulations and well done, Saprov.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thank you. That's Professor Bonanmohale calling

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Speaker 2: from to Hann's back. More of your calls and what's

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Speaker 2: ups after the latest and eyewitness news headlines. It's ten

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Speaker 2: thirty Hanging.

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Speaker 1: Out with Clement on seven oh two Walk the Talk.

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Speaker 2: Twenty five minutes before eleven old clock and hanging Out feature.

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Speaker 2: This morning, we're hosting the ucity Vice Chancellor, Professor Mossamo Shabella,

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Speaker 2: who's in studio with me and we've just been reflecting

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Speaker 2: on his journey in medicine in academia. But I want

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Speaker 2: to give you an opportunity as well to chat to

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Speaker 2: him if you want on seven seven two, one seven

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Speaker 2: o two. That's why you can send your WhatsApps your

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Speaker 2: calls on one one eight day three or seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's start here.

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Speaker 4: Good morning, Clement and Professor Mosha Bella. I really would

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Speaker 4: like to highly comment the profit for being the academic,

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Speaker 4: especially for during COVID times to have him in the country,

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Speaker 4: considering even health professionals suffered greatly when they didn't know

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Speaker 4: what COVID was. Some even openly told the country that

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Speaker 4: they have since acquiet depression.

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Speaker 5: That in turn helped with the mental wellness in the country.

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Speaker 5: That patient and started waking up and saying, if doctors, nurses,

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Speaker 5: all health professionals can have depression, then they ended up

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Speaker 5: taking their medication and we are getting in some way.

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Speaker 5: I really would like to say, as South African, so

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Speaker 5: we're very proud of you. Thanks TMA, thank.

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Speaker 2: You very much for that. There's a question here from

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Speaker 2: someone who says, please can you ask the prof that

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Speaker 2: I hear how fondly he speaks of his grandmother. Can

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Speaker 2: ask if the grandmother got to see him begin his

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Speaker 2: career in medicine.

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Speaker 1: Yes, LeMond So, I studied medicine at the University of

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Speaker 1: Natal then in nineteen ninety six. And then it was

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Speaker 1: interesting because my grandmother was very distraught when she heard

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Speaker 1: that I'm going to natal I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: remember those days. Those were the days of Inkata freedom.

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Speaker 1: And then and then when I came back June of

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Speaker 1: that year and I went to go see her, and

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Speaker 1: I spent about a week with her, and she said,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, and you know, she was touching me

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Speaker 1: physically to check if I'm exactly like you know, is it.

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Speaker 3: The real you?

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Speaker 1: And and and then she said to me, how are

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Speaker 1: you surviving with all the violence? And in her mind,

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Speaker 1: I mean, violence was everywhere, right, even though that was

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Speaker 1: not really the truth on the crowd. But I said, no,

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Speaker 1: I also wear the you know, the red band on

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Speaker 1: the head.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: She joined to join Inkada and she loved it that

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Speaker 1: and the idea was that just saying to her that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm figuring out ways of adapting to the environment.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when I went to Casada and I

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Speaker 1: could not even speak iszu And did.

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Speaker 2: You know anyone in Casada?

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know anyone anyone like I came from

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Speaker 1: zibid element, like the only Zulu wad I knew was

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Speaker 1: sow Born.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which was sufficient at the beginning. Did you take

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Speaker 2: a bus?

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Speaker 1: I took a bus. I took a bus from Joe

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Speaker 1: back from Yobaic station and all the way to Durban.

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Speaker 2: And but I had to learn.

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Speaker 1: And also because I came from a rural school, I

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Speaker 1: could not express myself in English, so it was a

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Speaker 1: double whammy for me there. So, but I had to

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Speaker 1: reassure her that you know, I'm learning how to speak isizul,

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Speaker 1: and I was kind of using certain ways and telling

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Speaker 1: her certain things in Issuzulu, and even though she wasn't understanding,

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Speaker 1: it gave a reassurance that I'm actually adapting to the environment.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned the issue of English, because I

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Speaker 2: think some people find it weird sometimes when I try

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Speaker 2: to explain it to them. When you say because, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was very tough. I went to the University of

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Speaker 2: Pretoria and at the time sometimes would be taught in

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Speaker 2: Afrikaans and English because it was a dual medium, and

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Speaker 2: I remember for me, the tough thing was also that

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Speaker 2: I didn't have confidence in expressing myself in English, coming

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Speaker 2: from a village school. So I always love meeting people

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Speaker 2: who've almost had a similar almost a similar experience. And

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Speaker 2: of course things were worse during your time. But can

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Speaker 2: you explain to our listeners how because some will say,

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Speaker 2: but you were taught English, but English, and about return

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Speaker 2: of speed, it's real, you know.

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Speaker 1: I remember I was in Great eleven eleven and the

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Speaker 1: English teacher was reading a book for us, and so

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Speaker 1: he will stand in front of the class and read

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Speaker 1: a line, a sentence, and then we'll all go quiet

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Speaker 1: in class, and then he will translate it into space

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Speaker 1: and then we'll start laughing, getting on getting in when

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Speaker 1: he does the translation. And there was there was, there was,

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Speaker 1: there was Standard nine, there was Grade eleven at that point.

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Speaker 1: So we could not we could not really understand English

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Speaker 1: even at that time. And it's almost like your brain

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Speaker 1: switches off, so when they're reading in English, you don't

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Speaker 1: even listen and you're waiting for the translation. And in

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Speaker 1: in metric, I was there, you know, I had a

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Speaker 1: nice title of the President of the Debate Committee.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, how was that kid?

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Speaker 1: And then you know how school visits school schools comes

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Speaker 1: to visit, and so there was a school that came

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Speaker 1: to visit our school and they happened to bring for sports,

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Speaker 1: but they happened to bring their debate committy with them.

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Speaker 1: So I get called and they're like, oh, the president

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Speaker 1: of this debate committity for the school wants to meet

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Speaker 1: with you. And now he was asking us to set up.

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Speaker 2: An improvem to debate.

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Speaker 1: We didn't do that like when we had debate.

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Speaker 2: We did.

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Speaker 1: We came up with topics the day before a few

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Speaker 1: days before. Then you go home and then you start

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Speaker 1: to write down and what effect.

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Speaker 2: And we got help.

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Speaker 1: We were assisted to write our the speech and then

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Speaker 1: we memorize the speech and then we come and we speak.

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Speaker 1: When it came to memorizing, I couldn't memorize the speech

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Speaker 1: and I could come and talk about it, but start

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Speaker 1: having a conversation.

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Speaker 2: That's tough. That was above my head.

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Speaker 1: So I remember that day when this guy asked, I

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, no, let me go find my let

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Speaker 1: me go find my people and I'll be back.

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Speaker 2: I was gone, never came back. WHE had a teacher.

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Speaker 2: Her name was memonwe memone, yeah, and she insisted. And

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to her because when we were in

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Speaker 2: grade twelve, especially grade eleventh, she insisted that all the

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Speaker 2: students must speak to her in English. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 2: we hated it because what is wrong with this woman?

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Speaker 2: And she came from Mammi Lodi, so she was seen

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Speaker 2: as someone who lives in town coming to our village

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Speaker 2: to force us to speak English that we don't understand.

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Speaker 2: But I get it now because much later when I

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Speaker 2: spoke to her, she was like, I knew what environment

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Speaker 2: you guys are going into and I needed you to

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Speaker 2: start practicing it with me. So it was so good

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Speaker 2: to always every time we are going and she wanted

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Speaker 2: to respond to you if you're.

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Speaker 6: Speak And we've never had hair at a wait in

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Speaker 6: the next imagine that, well never because issue was I

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Speaker 6: want to train you guys for what the world you're

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Speaker 6: going into.

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Speaker 1: No, we didn't have that, and I don't think that

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Speaker 1: even though our teachers anticipated that would go into that

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Speaker 1: world like I was. I was the only one after

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Speaker 1: Metric who went to Unity Institution, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: when I got to when I got to Durban, of

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Speaker 1: course I also couldn't speak in English, I couldn't articulate,

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Speaker 1: you know. I didn't grow up with the TV at home.

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Speaker 1: So when I got to varsity, I used TV to

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Speaker 1: learn just to be able to hear, you know, people

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Speaker 1: speak English, especially people of other races, just for them

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Speaker 1: for me to be able to understand different accents in

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Speaker 1: the way people speak. I used TV to learn me.

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Speaker 1: People used to say, why are you always in the

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Speaker 1: TV room? I was learning English.

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Speaker 2: Sure, that's so extraordinary when you look back, are there

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Speaker 2: any moments that stand out as like defining tenning points

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Speaker 2: in your life, whether in career, in family, whether a

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Speaker 2: painful time, a great time. But what would you say,

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Speaker 2: is or are some of the defining moments tenning points

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Speaker 2: in your life?

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Speaker 1: I have to say that I think when I was young,

436
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: the experience with my grandmother was actually very defining. And

437
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: I say this because as a young person, I grew

438
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: up with a little bit of violence around me, and

439
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: the idea of caring for people was not something that

440
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: came naturally. And I you know, like we were fascinated

441
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: by guns and things like that, and those are the

442
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 1: kind of things that were appealing. And I remember at

443
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: some point and feeling like I have to choose between,

444
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: you know, following a career in sort of military and

445
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: police and things like that that we saw as powerful,

446
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, versus becoming a care and that was tough

447
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: because your sense of masculinity tells you, you know, you

448
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: got to go with something that is more violent, like

449
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: and then it's kind of weak to go with something nurse.

450
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: You're gonna be nurse, you know.

451
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 1: Like so, but I think that, you know, caring for

452
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: my grandmother really helped me realize the power in saving

453
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: a life versus the danger of taking a life, you know,

454
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: because we always thought of soldiers and military people as

455
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: taking lives, and that for me felt like an important choice.

456
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: And it came when I was about to start high

457
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: school for me to understand that. And that was very

458
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: soon followed by an experience that I had when I

459
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: was about thirteen, and it was on a Sunday and

460
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: I was walking on a street in our village, and

461
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: you know how all the adults in the village are

462
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: like your parents, And the man next door saw me

463
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: walking on the street and I had my shirt that

464
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: was not tucked in, and he stopped and he was

465
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: about to get into his yard and he said, Mosa,

466
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: why why is your shirt not tucked in? And then,

467
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: without thinking, I just quickly said to him that, oh, no,

468
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: it's because I'm not wearing a belt. And then he

469
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: looked at me and he was like, oh, okay, next time,

470
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: make sure that you were a belt. And then I

471
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: walked and I was walking into my git and I'm thinking, oh,

472
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: my goodness, I don't know what would have happened if

473
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: that man actually asked me to lift my shirt because

474
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: I was actually wearing a belt.

475
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: I was lying mm and.

476
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: Lying was felt like almost so natural and easy. And

477
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: I don't forget that moment because it was at that

478
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: moment that I started thinking, at thirteen years old, of

479
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: the consequences of my decisions, because if he had asked

480
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: me to lift up my shirt, I was going to

481
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: get bat up yep, you know, with that belt.

482
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: So you can't even get home and complain, no you can't.

483
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: He's going to take you up exactly, you know.

484
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: So so but Clement, for me, that was defining because

485
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: ever since then, I got into a habit of thinking

486
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: about my decisions and the consequences of my decisions, and

487
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: I still do that even today.

488
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got some messages I want to read here

489
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: before the break. One message says High Clement, salute to

490
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: the vice chancellor there and ordinary South African with extraordinary

491
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: gift of leadership skills, a humanitarian excellent. And these are

492
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: some of the South Africans who carry our own invisible wounds,

493
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: healing slowly but surely wounds of corruption mismanagement from those

494
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: we trusted with authority. That's a message from Gala. Another

495
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: one says clim and High. I'm loving the prof and

496
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: he sounds so down to earth. My daughter applied to

497
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: UCT just yesterday. I'm really praying that she makes it

498
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: under such a great vice chancellor. And then the last

499
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: one here also from anonymous, It says, Hi Clement, thank

500
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: you for bringing this brilliant leader. What I like is

501
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: that I also come from Zevidil, and you know his

502
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: humble beginnings molded him to be this great person there,

503
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: saying that humble yourself and God should lift you up.

504
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: He is a living testimony of that. Those are some

505
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: of the messages coming through on the what'sapuplind it's eleven

506
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: minutes now before eleven out clock. Let's go for a

507
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: quick at break. When we come back, we'll take more

508
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: of your messages and we'll play another song that is

509
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: Professor Mussam Mischabella's favorite. Hanging out with Clement on seven

510
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: or two Let's talk the talk nine minutes before eleven outlock. Okay.

511
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: So another song that Professor Mussam Mushabella listens to you

512
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: a lot, loves appreciates is Say Africa by Vusi Mashacela.

513
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: Why is this one special for you? Prop?

514
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: I think it is the it's the lyrics. In twenty fourteen,

515
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: I was invited to go and do an interview in London.

516
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: I had applied for something called the Welcome Trust Fellowship

517
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: and it is this fellowship that they give you for

518
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: like three or four years and they pay for everything.

519
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like the dream. And it is so

520
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: prestigious that you know, someone said to me that you know,

521
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: you can mess up your life and when you come

522
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: back after five years, people will say, oh, that's the

523
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: guy who had the Welcome Trust fellowship. So it's so

524
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: prestigious that the Welcome Trust took me from Durban to

525
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: London for a twenty minutes interview and then I was

526
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: there for three days and then I came back twenty

527
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: minutes interview, and I had never imagined that possible in

528
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: my life, that you can be flown all the way

529
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: to London to go and do twenty minutes, and that's

530
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: what I did. And I remember walking in the streets

531
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: and just feeling like, you know, I don't know how,

532
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, feeling the grace of being in London coming

533
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: from you know, I was in case at any of

534
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: the time, but just thinking about my life. And I

535
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: remember the first line that I used in the interview.

536
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: They said, tell us about yourself, and I said to them,

537
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a man from the village, and you

538
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: know what we say about that, that you can take

539
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: the man out of the village, but you cannot take

540
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: a village of the man. So so that was my

541
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: first line in introducing myself. But I remember thinking about

542
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: this song because of the lyrics that talks about the

543
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: dust in your shoes, in your boots when you're walking

544
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: the street of London, the streets of Amsterdam, and it

545
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: just represented a moment of yeah, a shift of being

546
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: elevated and and and yeah, I really connect with those lyrics.

547
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: And his voice, of course, is just amazing.

548
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: I mean what a legend, say Africa, Africa.

549
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: I came in then the team high proof proof.

550
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 7: As someone who is leading a premium university, my question

551
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 7: is do you think you're facing more challenges in your

552
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 7: leadership when com head to someone who is leading the

553
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 7: so called African universities?

554
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: Thanks David, Thank you David. Yeah, it's a tough question.

555
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: So I've worked in only a few institutions, but I

556
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: think as a leader. I worked at the University of

557
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: Cozulnata and I was a deputy vice chancellor there for

558
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: research and Innovation, which means I was in the executive

559
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: and so I was also a dean there. But coming

560
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: to the University of Cape Town as the vice chancellor,

561
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: I can say that there are some differences. When I

562
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: was at UKs and the population group that I dealt

563
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: with was a lot of people that had backgrounds like me,

564
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: a lot like coming from the villages, and many of

565
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: them struggled to speak English. And so the way you

566
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: approach the running of that institution is different, is very different.

567
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: And I even remember simple things like you know, if

568
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: you're thinking about buying your own car, you have to

569
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: be careful what kind of a car you buy as

570
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: an executive because you don't want it to be a

571
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: spite in the faces of the case that you're leading.

572
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: But when I came to uc T, I came into

573
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: an institution that has a global brand. Global brand as in,

574
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: like I would go, I get invited to divorce as

575
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: one of the only maybe twenty university vice chancellors and

576
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: presidents around the world, you know, and it's a very

577
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: different They tell me that they were following every single

578
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: month to see who's the vice chancellor who's going to

579
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: be appointed at the University of Capital. So the global

580
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: brand is at another level. Therefore, the complexity and the

581
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: stakeholders are very, very different, and so it's not necessarily

582
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: that it's better. I think it's more that it's different

583
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: and the issues that you deal with are different. I

584
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: think that there is definitely a place for universities, you know.

585
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: One of the other positions that I had considered was

586
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: Mango suited in Visitor of Technology as potential vice chancellor.

587
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: That was going to be a local agenda, not one

588
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: of which is global.

589
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, prof thank you so much for coming to

590
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: hang out with us, and thank you for your contribution

591
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: in academia in the world of medicine, and we thank you.

592
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 2: A lot of our listeners remind remember you a lot

593
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: from during the copy nineteen days. It's just been incredible,

594
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: so we wish you all the best and we thank

595
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 2: you for honoring our invitation today.

596
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: Thanks Leamon and their listeners, and I shout out to

597
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: everyone who has been listening much appreciate the invitation.

598
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's a minute before eleven