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Speaker 1: As South Africans. Of course, crime is a major concern

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Speaker 1: for many of us. The statistics are not good, but

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Speaker 1: there are many NGOs who are working in our communities

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Speaker 1: to deal with the effects of crime and perhaps more importantly,

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Speaker 1: to deal with the root causes. And one of those

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Speaker 1: organizations is Callusive Social Solutions, which has been around for

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Speaker 1: almost thirty years, and it's come up with a new

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Speaker 1: report that really paints a sobering picture of trauma and

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Speaker 1: fractured systems and cycles of violence. And it's spent the

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Speaker 1: past year gathering lived experience data from across a number

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Speaker 1: of communities and joining us now. While not joining us

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Speaker 1: now she's been on the phone bless her heart for

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Speaker 1: the last ten minutes. Is founder and managing director, doctor

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Speaker 1: Leslie and Vansealm. Very good morning to Leslie and and

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Speaker 1: good to have you with us. Appreciate your time this

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Speaker 1: morning and waiting before.

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Speaker 2: We get into I love the conversation so good.

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Speaker 1: Going to try I know, I know, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean we have to bring a bit of a

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Speaker 1: bit of light and dark to things, I think. But

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Speaker 1: before we get into your reaction to the sound of

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Speaker 1: deployment this week, what won't you just paint an overview

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Speaker 1: for us of what you do at CANISA.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so, just you know, just in terms of

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Speaker 2: the Western Cape. You know, when we see soldiers on

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Speaker 2: the street, we know that the system has failed. And

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Speaker 2: that's what CALICA is really all about, is looking at

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Speaker 2: how we, through collaborative efforts, can try to rebuild the

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Speaker 2: fractured systems that are not only in the Western cap

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Speaker 2: but right throughout our country. So for nearly thirty years,

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Speaker 2: CALICE has been working on trying to find the root

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Speaker 2: cause of the systemic blockages that are leading to the

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Speaker 2: fragility in our country. And despite all the trillions and

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Speaker 2: trillions of rands been spent wherever we work and we're

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Speaker 2: working in terms of the communities, we are finding that

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Speaker 2: there's an increase of hopelessness, unemployment, inequality, and that's really

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Speaker 2: what our organizations about is trying to find out how

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Speaker 2: collaboration can actually start making an impact in rebuilding our

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Speaker 2: Rainbo nation. Talk to us.

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Speaker 1: About this research crime related research over a twelve month

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Speaker 1: period and then compiled into these community reports. What was

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Speaker 1: the aim of that research? What were you looking to find?

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Speaker 2: Well, this research was very specific to the Western Cape

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Speaker 2: and Caton and its local environs. So we mandated by

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Speaker 2: the Department of Social Development to run adult diversion programs

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Speaker 2: people who referred to us by the court and also

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Speaker 2: working with children in fragmented communities. So we through our

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Speaker 2: dialogue circles which our AI generates and use a special

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Speaker 2: technology to actually extract information in the most creative way

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Speaker 2: from people who had been referred to as through the

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Speaker 2: courts who are perpetrators of crime, violence, gangsterism, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: So we take their load experiences, so we're not just

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Speaker 2: doing research from the top down and looking at their

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Speaker 2: top information. We are asking people to tell us what

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Speaker 2: really led to their having to enter gangsterism, you know,

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Speaker 2: be victims of subtance abuse and also being victims of

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Speaker 2: various factured family So the end lived experience that helped

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Speaker 2: us to actually see what we need to do to

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Speaker 2: actually identify the root cause of behavior instead of just

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Speaker 2: looking at the symptoms, which unfortunately is being done and

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Speaker 2: there's so little emphasis on looking at collaboration around the

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Speaker 2: dysfunctionality where everything is breeding at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Talk to us a little bit more, if you will,

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Speaker 1: lead about how you gathered this information and then we

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Speaker 1: can talk a little bit about the findings.

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Speaker 2: So what we do is, through our dialogue circles, we

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Speaker 2: we actually the follow up process is where we ask

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Speaker 2: questions specific to what happened during your childhood, what what

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Speaker 2: you know, what type of family have you come from,

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Speaker 2: what's your father's figure, et cetera. And what we do

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Speaker 2: is we take all these these these these lived, experienced

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Speaker 2: voices and we then analyze them through a system which

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Speaker 2: then generates data for us to start showing the patterns

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Speaker 2: that's that prevail and hundreds and hundreds of individuals, the

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Speaker 2: patterns boiled down't exactly the same thing. They come from brokenness,

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Speaker 2: and this brokenness is what leads to people looking for

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Speaker 2: love in the wrong places, looking for escapers and taking

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Speaker 2: substance abusiness of the pain and the trauma looking you know,

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Speaker 2: not having family structures where love, you know, real real

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Speaker 2: love is bred because of the intergenerational trauma that that

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Speaker 2: our people are also living with. So that is really

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Speaker 2: what we've done, is we've done a diagnostic analysis looking

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Speaker 2: at how we can can recreate our broken systems through

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Speaker 2: different types of interventions. But nobody can do it on

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Speaker 2: their own. And this is really a core for breaking

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Speaker 2: down the silos and looking at how we can address

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Speaker 2: the fragmentation in terms of service delivery around crime in

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Speaker 2: the wasting case verssivity but has data set.

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Speaker 1: Listen and as you're talking, I'm nodding along, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've reached the stage where anyone with even

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Speaker 1: a kind of perfunctory knowledge of trauma, which feels like

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Speaker 1: all of us now at this point, because it's become

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Speaker 1: a bit of a buzzword. And for that I'm hugely

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Speaker 1: grateful because I think it's so important informs so much

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Speaker 1: about the way that we live, in the way that

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Speaker 1: we as individuals and society are able to show up

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Speaker 1: in the world. But I almost feel like that the

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Speaker 1: con when does the conversation move forward? In that I

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Speaker 1: often speak to people like yourself who are doing this

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Speaker 1: hugely important work in going to ground and understanding the causes,

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Speaker 1: and yet there seems to be a disconnect between that

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Speaker 1: and then government, and when we start talking about things

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Speaker 1: like policing, very and dealing and crime statistics, there doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to be a marriage between the two happening. I

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Speaker 1: very rarely hear police chiefs, so maybe this isn't their job,

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Speaker 1: But there needs to be understanding of speaking about the trauma,

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Speaker 1: speaking about the thing. It seems like often we're talking

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Speaker 1: about two different, two different things, and yet they are

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Speaker 1: one and the same. Without the unprocessed trauma, Without the

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Speaker 1: unprocessed trauma and all of that stuff that leads to

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Speaker 1: the substance abuse and the crime, there isn't the crime.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering when the two become reconciled, do you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Totally? And you know, the amazing thing is that they

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Speaker 2: have over the years, there have been so many policies

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Speaker 2: that have talked about inter satoric collaboration, about government departments

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Speaker 2: working together, and just a the top of my head,

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Speaker 2: I would probably say that seventy five percent of all

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Speaker 2: our government apartments around the country are in one way

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Speaker 2: or another dealing with crime, whether it the environmental, water,

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Speaker 2: sanitation all and it's the trillion of rands being being invested,

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Speaker 2: but in fragmented efforts. So nothing is making any difference

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Speaker 2: because every government department's doing its own thing. It's looking

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Speaker 2: at outcome, you know, outputs and not outcome. And all

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Speaker 2: these calls for us to do a cohesive approach have

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Speaker 2: failed and that's why it's getting worse and worse year

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Speaker 2: after year, because there's no call for a consolidated approach.

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Speaker 2: And if ever a province was ready to make this happen,

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Speaker 2: it's a win cape because of the way it's being

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Speaker 2: governed and because of the hope that it actually brings

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Speaker 2: to us as NGO, because we see the way that

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Speaker 2: we are treat about the local government.

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Speaker 1: Sure, if you're just joining us this morning, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to the founder and managing director of Kalicis Social Solutions,

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Speaker 1: doctor Leslian Van Salman, talking about the organization's recent report

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Speaker 1: into essentially crime and trauma and fractured systems the cycles

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Speaker 1: of violence. Talk to us about the adverse childhood Experiences framework.

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Speaker 1: You say that the findings of your report should be

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Speaker 1: viewed through that lens. Won't you explain what that is?

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so. Dwards childhood experiences there's actually a very

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Speaker 2: well researched form of psychology and it's actually very unknown

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Speaker 2: or really unexplored. So Dward's childhood experiences are what happens

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Speaker 2: to basically a child from birth or up to the

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Speaker 2: age of eighteen, where the traumatic experiences that they have

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Speaker 2: during their early childhood, the abuse, neglect, exposure to drugs GBV,

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Speaker 2: absence of father, father being incarcerated. These are these are

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Speaker 2: experiences that that affect the functionality of a child from

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Speaker 2: as little as one years old. So we know how

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Speaker 2: to functional the families are, know how roight GBD is.

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Speaker 2: So these these emotional environments trigger behaviors that people carry

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Speaker 2: with them and unless there's intervention, that behavior perpetuates. So

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Speaker 2: that's why we're finding in our questions such a high

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Speaker 2: degree of bullying. That's why we're finding even children being

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Speaker 2: so aggressive, and of course that's why we're finding the

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Speaker 2: increase of people looking for solace and family and love

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Speaker 2: and gangs. So we have got to look at how

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Speaker 2: these these these tense, fundamental address childed experiences are addressed. Again,

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Speaker 2: going back at a systemic level, we have to look

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Speaker 2: at how we prevent these from happening so that our

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Speaker 2: children and start growing up in normalized environments and where

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Speaker 2: violence isn't so normalized with our children.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you've picked up on is

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Speaker 1: this duplication of services. Maybe you could talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about that and the impact that that has.

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Speaker 1: What what what is the what is the knock on

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Speaker 1: effect of the duplication of services.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the thing is, it's not it's not

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Speaker 2: that there's not that nothing's been done. There is so

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Speaker 2: much being done, but it's not being done in a systemic,

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Speaker 2: coordinated way. So as a result, there's no impact. So

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that not that they're not pockets of

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Speaker 2: excellent because you know, especially in the Western Cape, there

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Speaker 2: are some projects that have worked, but that's really taken

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Speaker 2: a concentrated, coordinated approach between government corporate NGOs looking at

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Speaker 2: environments where were there we show it can actually work.

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Speaker 2: But because of the duplication of where there are different

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Speaker 2: government departments I invest for example, there's that nine or

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Speaker 2: eighteen government departments dealing with GBV, So instead of looking

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Speaker 2: at a coordinated approach, each government department is funding an

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Speaker 2: NGO to deal with GBV. But the injurs are not

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Speaker 2: looking at alignment. We're not looking at one set of

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Speaker 2: data to actually say how can we address this in

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Speaker 2: a coordinated orchestrated way. So as a result, all the

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Speaker 2: efforts and all the immense love being invested by the

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Speaker 2: indios is lost and the injurs then also get short

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Speaker 2: term funding. So they might just be reaching a stage

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Speaker 2: where they are achieving sunning and then the funding comes

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Speaker 2: to an end. So of course people revert back to

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Speaker 2: their previous behavior because it's not a system to actually

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Speaker 2: sustain that.

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Speaker 1: Again, I'm nodding along and I think, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: sat in this chair for a very long time and

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Speaker 1: I have spoken to it must be hundreds of ngngos

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Speaker 1: who are all their aim is to all make an impact,

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Speaker 1: and they're all doing the hearts in the right place,

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Speaker 1: and they're all doing extraordinary work. But again, without that

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Speaker 1: almost the collaboration or you know, a more systemic approach,

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Speaker 1: it's little pockets of impact which don't have longevity.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we've got different KPIs. So one, you know,

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Speaker 2: we've been, you know, constantly been pushed to reach targets.

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Speaker 2: You've got to reach five thousand children in the school

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Speaker 2: holiday programs, but we're not being asked to actually say,

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Speaker 2: measure the impact of the school holiday program three months after,

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Speaker 2: how did your intervention work with the children. So again,

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Speaker 2: we run these extensive school holiday programs and for a

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Speaker 2: week or two weeks the kids can play and do

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Speaker 2: drama therapy, but then they go back to the brokenness

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Speaker 2: in the school. So again it's all this money being

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Speaker 2: wasted because we're not measuring it and we're not singing

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Speaker 2: from the same hymn sheets. If the injuriers had common

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Speaker 2: you know, performance indicators, we could all start saying, how

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Speaker 2: can we achieve these together? Let's work hand in hands.

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Speaker 1: So what's the what's the solution, what's the best way

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Speaker 1: forward here? Leslie? And what are you calling on government

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Speaker 1: and other stakeholders to do?

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Speaker 2: You know, the thing is, we cannot look at short

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Speaker 2: term programs anymore. We cannot look at the overlapping. But

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Speaker 2: the most important thing is that the government themselves, the

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Speaker 2: government has got to form a coalition and innovative comments

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Speaker 2: looking at data where the overlaps are. Even in some

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Speaker 2: government departments. You've got family services, you've got victim services,

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Speaker 2: you've got you know, children shelters, you've got substance abuse.

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Speaker 2: These are all the same problems. But get these different

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Speaker 2: directorates dealing with them, dealing with different enginos without looking

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Speaker 2: at the one government department being one unit, to say,

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Speaker 2: let's stop looking at the overlap, let's look at this

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Speaker 2: being one ecosystem, and then then let's start looking at

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Speaker 2: how we can avoid throwing money at different injuries when

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Speaker 2: we are dealing with the same problem and form one

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Speaker 2: cohesive unit. So that's just the most important thing. And

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Speaker 2: then the second thing is to create you know, opportunities

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Speaker 2: for injuris to actually sit together and have a structure

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Speaker 2: where they are where everybody's got to look at data.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're very fortunate with Colica that we did

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Speaker 2: get some substantial funding to really invest in AR generated

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Speaker 2: data and this has now been over one hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: voices that we've been able to analyze and look at

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Speaker 2: different demographics around the country and what's causing it. And

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Speaker 2: so it's again looking at the department you know, looking

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Speaker 2: at how we get children to get water, you know, sanitation,

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Speaker 2: having access to roads, which was lighting. These are all

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Speaker 2: you know, different government departments responsibilities that compound the crime

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Speaker 2: because of the you know, inhumane conditions that children are

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Speaker 2: being brought up in. So again we have to get

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Speaker 2: governments to sit together and start looking at all our

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Speaker 2: municipal responsibilities and start saying, let's look at how in

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Speaker 2: one ecosystem at a time, we can start looking at

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Speaker 2: what's really causing these systemic blockages and let's start measuring.

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Speaker 2: If we get water, if we get safe roads, we

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Speaker 2: will reduce crime and we don't have to look at

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Speaker 2: during sixteen days of non violence.

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Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, It's one of those things where you look

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Speaker 1: at it and it looks it looks simple, but not easy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've got messages coming in saying haven't we done enough

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Speaker 1: talking and information gathering. It's blatantly obvious that broken homes, poverty, hopelessness,

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Speaker 1: et cetera are the root cause. But what can be done?

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Speaker 1: What is being done on grassroots level for these dynamics

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Speaker 1: to be addressed and healed? What can we do? It

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Speaker 1: feels too huge? I think that's a sentiment that many

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Speaker 1: many people feel that it feels too huge. Someone else saying,

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Speaker 1: if the South African government put a one percent transaction

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Speaker 1: tax on every financial transaction money moved from one bankcout

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Speaker 1: to another bank account in South Africa, it could collect

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Speaker 1: three times the amount of tax and it does now

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Speaker 1: and use that money to give people a universal wage.

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Speaker 1: The jobs need to be there for a universal wage

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Speaker 1: to happen. Yeah, should we take a load to that?

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Speaker 1: To that voice note, Leslie, and I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: pop you on hold for a second while we listen

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Speaker 1: to a voice note that's coming from Ross.

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Speaker 3: It's Jay. I'm listening now to your interview, and I say,

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Speaker 3: just another hand ringing session. I run a lot of

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Speaker 3: volunteer organizations and I beg people to come and help,

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Speaker 3: and the vast majority of people are comfortable because I

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Speaker 3: work in a middle class, mainly white environment here in Thornton.

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Speaker 3: And the number of volunteers, especially men of my age

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Speaker 3: I'm eighty two now, who will come forward and teach maths, say,

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Speaker 3: or help with an organization, telling stories and just help

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Speaker 3: in that way. It is a tiny fraction of people,

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Speaker 3: but the vast majority will bring their hands and talk

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Speaker 3: and nothing has changed. It's the same apart eyed system,

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Speaker 3: except instead of it being pigmentation. That is the thing

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Speaker 3: which divides us, its money and satisfaction. I really don't

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Speaker 3: know what to do, but nothing will change unless we

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Speaker 3: take this on and give and give and give, and

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Speaker 3: then this beautiful country of ours will truly become the

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Speaker 3: Rainbow nation.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that voice note Ross, thanks very much. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: if you just joining us this morning, welcome, good to

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Speaker 1: have you with us. We are talking this morning about

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Speaker 1: crime and cycles of violence and root causes of crime

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Speaker 1: and what needs to happen, what really needs to happen,

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Speaker 1: And joining me this morning the founder and managing director

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Speaker 1: of Palicia Social Solutions, which has come out with the

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Speaker 1: reports really painting a sobering picture of the trauma and

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Speaker 1: of those fractured systems, but has spent some time gathering

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Speaker 1: lived experienced data from multiple communities and looking specifically at

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Speaker 1: the Western Cape and Cape Town. I want to just

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Speaker 1: talk to you, if we can just wrap up, Leslie,

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Speaker 1: and about your I mean you sort of touched on

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Speaker 1: it in your first answer, but the Sandeft deployment across

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Speaker 1: communities in Cape Town and across the country. Your thoughts

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Speaker 1: essentially we've failed.

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Speaker 2: You say, well, hasn't it happened? For the fake of it?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's it's a combination of sustained it'scalating violence,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the weeks and months of instability and

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Speaker 2: systemic failure and the horrendous crime statistics. So what we

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Speaker 2: you know, what we we're thing is not a crime crisis.

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Speaker 2: It's actually an indication that the system has reached a

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Speaker 2: breaking point. And and you know, whilst whilst they might

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Speaker 2: well whilst the presence, which which I'm not saying is

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Speaker 2: wrong at all. It might sort of quell, you know,

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Speaker 2: the the rampant you know crime at the moment, but

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Speaker 2: the minute the defensewards is gone, people are going to

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Speaker 2: return to their normal behavior because we're not changing the system,

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Speaker 2: and and that you know we this has got to

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Speaker 2: be the biggest call to action for everybody to sit

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Speaker 2: down and say, look at the data. Look why has

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Speaker 2: why has every once, every government department, the indicators, the KPI.

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Speaker 2: Why are we con tenualing to fail and get worsening

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Speaker 2: and worsening crime statistics, lack of access to water, lack

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Speaker 2: of housing, lack of unemployment. Why is this happening when

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Speaker 2: so much money is being spent and squandered and corrupted

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Speaker 2: sadly as well, Why is this happening? And the time

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Speaker 2: for us to have this question to say why is

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Speaker 2: our GDP being invested in a failing system? And they

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Speaker 2: just had to be a call to action now to

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Speaker 2: say this cannot be anymore and Ross's coming. There are

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Speaker 2: so many people are willing to be part of heeding

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Speaker 2: the system by and listening, by helping with the trauma,

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Speaker 2: by joining in this army of good will but the

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Speaker 2: government has to take the lead and if anything we

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Speaker 2: can do together is have a call to the government.

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Speaker 2: The Sense forces has been called in at great expense

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Speaker 2: to deal with mass murderings and killings and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Surely this is a signal now that we've got to

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Speaker 2: think about things differently

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Speaker 1: Doctor Leslie Anne van Salm, who is the founder and

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Speaker 1: managing director of colic At Social Solutions, Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for your time this morning.