WEBVTT - Openline 0:00:00.170 --> 0:00:04.090 Seven minutes after 11 o'clock and welcome to the final 0:00:04.130 --> 0:00:07.230 hour of the show. What a show, eh? We started 0:00:07.290 --> 0:00:16.170 off speaking to Sikanda Kala, clinical psychologist, founder of Cohesive Collaboration, 0:00:16.190 --> 0:00:20.540 and we had that discussion around the psychology of adversity 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:24.800 and success. The second hour of the show, we had 0:00:24.820 --> 0:00:29.640 the conversation with Chad Thomas, private investigator and at IRS 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:35.240 Forensic Investigations. And we were talking about national security at 0:00:35.300 --> 0:00:38.100 the heart of the SSA trial. And I think that 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:45.390 conversation led us to the conclusion perhaps that our very 0:00:45.570 --> 0:00:54.130 important and essential intelligence services are broken. And that's why 0:00:54.350 --> 0:01:02.570 everything about this country is in so much trouble. The 0:01:02.590 --> 0:01:05.330 very idea that it is a country is in itself 0:01:05.630 --> 0:01:11.420 in trouble. That there are very, very strong forces that 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.060 are trying to break the very idea that South Africa 0:01:16.180 --> 0:01:22.840 is a sovereign state, both internally and externally. Some have 0:01:22.900 --> 0:01:27.270 even suggested that they are working together in tandem, these forces. 0:01:31.890 --> 0:01:41.610 broken because of many reasons amongst which are a lack 0:01:41.870 --> 0:01:56.470 of internal cohesion, fundamental dissonance that imagines it will be 0:01:56.810 --> 0:02:05.150 satiated by the accumulation of things. It manifests itself in 0:02:05.170 --> 0:02:11.230 many different ways, but it is a deep existential crisis 0:02:14.650 --> 0:02:23.859 that thinks the ultimate tragedy of the ego that thinks 0:02:24.020 --> 0:02:30.340 that I become more when I have more. A deep 0:02:30.490 --> 0:02:46.220 misplacement of value. that spawns deep levels of unethical consciousness. 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.100 And then, of course, in the final hour, I had 0:02:52.139 --> 0:02:55.180 Professor Musad Kholou come and talk to me about the 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.079 history of the Bantu people. I did put forward my 0:02:59.620 --> 0:03:10.579 disclaimer right at the beginning. And Suppose, you know, when 0:03:10.620 --> 0:03:14.180 you go through a process of learning, you change, right? 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:14.760 Yes. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.000 When you learn something new, you change because that's what 0:03:19.430 --> 0:03:24.330 the learning process is. It fundamentally changes you because you 0:03:24.370 --> 0:03:28.090 now are in possession of new information. 0:03:28.370 --> 0:03:28.650 Yeah. 0:03:29.690 --> 0:03:34.690 That information either changes the way that you've been understanding 0:03:34.770 --> 0:03:39.210 things or it further crystallizes ideas that you might have 0:03:39.250 --> 0:03:46.430 had before. And I suppose that this hour's conversation will 0:03:46.730 --> 0:03:52.720 help me digest and metabolize the conversation I've just had 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:58.520 with Dr., I mean, Professor. I invite you to join 0:03:58.580 --> 0:04:02.620 us now as we have these conversations. So much happening 0:04:03.700 --> 0:04:12.020 at the moment. former President Thabo Mbeki continues to be 0:04:12.180 --> 0:04:17.900 in the hot seat at the Kampepe Commission, fundamentally denying 0:04:18.100 --> 0:04:22.960 the idea that there was political influence in whether or 0:04:23.020 --> 0:04:27.620 not crimes that were committed in the apartheid era could 0:04:27.700 --> 0:04:32.760 face prosecution or not. And I suppose all of these 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.980 things are about definition, right, about how you understand a 0:04:37.010 --> 0:04:44.580 particular concept and therefore what ideas follow that understanding. What 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:49.420 actions follow that understanding? But I'll open up the lines 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:54.220 for you. The Public Protector has come out to say 0:04:54.260 --> 0:05:04.620 that they are launching an investigation around the negligence of 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:10.080 the water purification process in Pretoria, Bronco Sprit, you might 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.320 have detected a little bit of a hesitance, as I said, negligence. 0:05:17.460 --> 0:05:22.169 Because the longer I look at this matter, I am 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:24.010 not sure that it was negligence. 0:05:27.310 --> 0:05:27.710 Anymore. 0:05:33.650 --> 0:05:37.480 The more I look at it, I'm beginning to sense 0:05:37.700 --> 0:05:51.450 a deliberateness behind the continued issues of water in the 0:05:51.470 --> 0:05:57.110 Pretoria issue, in the Pretoria space. And that they are 0:05:59.010 --> 0:06:04.610 wanting us to believe that we are dealing with incompetence 0:06:04.650 --> 0:06:08.190 when in fact we are dealing with very very malicious 0:06:10.610 --> 0:06:21.420 incompetence yes the politics of inefficiency and the and the 0:06:21.460 --> 0:06:27.960 rewards that are to be gotten out of that but 0:06:27.980 --> 0:06:30.279 hey I open up the lines now 14 minutes after 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.510 11 o'clock is the time, and I'm looking forward to 0:06:35.270 --> 0:06:38.909 all of your calls. Bronwyn is in the Valdam. Good evening, Bronwyn. 0:06:40.190 --> 0:06:41.690 Hello, Aubrey. 0:06:42.070 --> 0:06:45.029 Yeah, hi. 0:06:45.130 --> 0:06:47.990 Yeah, I didn't know whether I had to make a 0:06:48.050 --> 0:06:51.230 comment or whether we had a dialogue, but I listened 0:06:51.270 --> 0:06:55.390 to your very interesting program. You must be extremely depressed. 0:06:56.390 --> 0:06:56.740 Why? 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.500 Why would I be depressed? 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:09.080 Very, very heavy conversations for the last three hours. But 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.080 I have a lot of life. 0:07:11.100 --> 0:07:15.020 For the last 16 years, Bronwyn. For the last 16 years. 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:21.440 No way. Look, I'd like to open with your comments 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:26.380 about the Bantu. I don't know. I'm English, Anglo-Saxon. 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:26.680 Yep. 0:07:27.250 --> 0:07:30.330 And I didn't know if we could have a dialogue, 0:07:30.590 --> 0:07:32.710 or I need to just make a comment. 0:07:33.110 --> 0:07:36.310 Whatever you're comfortable with in this hour, Bronwyn. Go ahead. 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:42.060 I'm happy to speak. I'm phoning for Denysville, which nobody 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.260 knows about. It's at the Vauldam. It's on the border 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:51.500 of Gauteng and the Free State. And we call it Denysville. Denizens. 0:07:51.700 --> 0:07:54.380 Believe it or not, I know exactly where Denysville is. 0:07:55.490 --> 0:07:57.270 Thank you so much. You're welcome. 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:58.760 I've been there before. 0:07:59.860 --> 0:08:01.060 Well, you're allowed to come back. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:02.260 Thank you. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.600 There are a lot of Khoisan and Bantu here. 0:08:05.740 --> 0:08:08.450 Yes. And Anglo-Saxon. 0:08:09.710 --> 0:08:14.150 Yeah, and Anglo-Saxon. A lot of them. A lot of them. 0:08:14.190 --> 0:08:14.470 Go ahead. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.580 So my point is that you had a very long 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:28.290 lead-up regarding the Bantu. Sorry about my accent. But I 0:08:28.330 --> 0:08:30.990 was brought up during apartheid, and of course the Bantu 0:08:31.030 --> 0:08:33.910 were the black people, and we were the whites, we 0:08:33.929 --> 0:08:37.290 were the Europeans. And I think that you got stuck, 0:08:37.370 --> 0:08:40.930 and I think that the professor was extremely lucid and clear. 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:41.030 Yeah. 0:08:41.710 --> 0:08:45.010 And I don't think he quite cuts through as well 0:08:45.050 --> 0:08:57.160 as he did, you know, the whole issue about structuralism, language, anthropology, 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.680 and the origins of identity. 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:02.600 Yeah. 0:09:02.660 --> 0:09:05.220 So I just wanted to correct you there, if you 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:05.600 don't mind. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:09.440 Sure, please, please, absolutely, yeah. So, you know. 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:16.290 I thought that he was very clear in... Well, look, 0:09:16.670 --> 0:09:19.530 I've spent a lot of time in Egypt. Luxor, you 0:09:19.550 --> 0:09:24.330 go to Luxor, you can actually find the last pharaohs 0:09:24.390 --> 0:09:31.040 of Egypt were southern Sudanese black people. And in the 0:09:31.220 --> 0:09:36.340 Museum of Luxor, you see effigies and statues and various. 0:09:38.510 --> 0:09:43.370 Remnants of their recognition, and they are very much Bantu, 0:09:44.270 --> 0:09:48.910 or Buntu, whatever you, okay? And if you go to 0:09:49.230 --> 0:09:50.550 the museum, they're like. 0:09:50.570 --> 0:09:52.490 They're very much black people, right? 0:09:53.390 --> 0:09:56.530 No, they look just like Zulu people. 0:09:57.150 --> 0:10:01.920 So what I'm saying is that they are not Arabic 0:10:02.059 --> 0:10:06.059 in their features. Not at all. But what I'm trying 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.720 to say is that that's where the contestation is. 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.160 I don't know if it is because the origin of 0:10:15.210 --> 0:10:17.110 the Nile is in Uganda, right? 0:10:17.130 --> 0:10:17.750 That's right. 0:10:17.770 --> 0:10:19.610 Okay. 0:10:20.390 --> 0:10:25.310 So obviously those people from that area traveled north and 0:10:25.390 --> 0:10:29.530 south many, many thousands of years ago. 0:10:29.550 --> 0:10:31.589 Okay. 0:10:32.990 --> 0:10:34.189 I'm hearing you say obviously. 0:10:35.790 --> 0:10:38.510 Well, I think obviously because they were on the pinnacle 0:10:38.570 --> 0:10:40.689 of the continent. And then when they went north, they 0:10:40.710 --> 0:10:44.329 went downstream to the Mediterranean. 0:10:44.350 --> 0:10:47.290 So why are you not saying obviously east and west? 0:10:50.940 --> 0:10:53.160 The professor talked about east and west, but I don't 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.160 know about east and west. I just know about north 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:56.840 and south because that's what I learned when I went 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.719 to school. There was only north and south, you know. 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:08.170 But you also said obviously. Well, obviously, I still stand by. 0:11:08.670 --> 0:11:12.229 No, no, and I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm simply 0:11:12.270 --> 0:11:16.530 saying that if it's obvious north and south, why is 0:11:16.570 --> 0:11:18.240 it not obvious east and west? 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.820 Because north and south is where your atlas lies. Your atlas, 0:11:24.860 --> 0:11:28.140 you point it at north and south, and that's your compass. 0:11:28.900 --> 0:11:31.179 A compass is north and south. I live at the 0:11:31.250 --> 0:11:35.750 Val Dam. We are east and west. Actually, the Val 0:11:35.790 --> 0:11:40.650 travels from the east to the west. And nobody knows 0:11:40.730 --> 0:11:43.689 where that river goes. I just don't understand how I 0:11:43.750 --> 0:11:46.390 can do a horizontal instead of a vertical. 0:11:47.870 --> 0:11:52.100 So I hear that. I suppose what I'm asking is 0:11:53.470 --> 0:11:57.730 if it's obvious that people will migrate from north to 0:11:57.790 --> 0:12:02.490 south or south to north, why is it not obvious 0:12:02.550 --> 0:12:06.290 that they will also migrate left and south? I mean, 0:12:07.170 --> 0:12:08.410 west and east. 0:12:09.010 --> 0:12:10.890 They can do that, but what's the relevance of that? 0:12:11.170 --> 0:12:13.689 Here's the relevance. Here's the relevance. Here's the reference. 0:12:13.710 --> 0:12:18.370 The reference is. I'm saying our reference is the height 0:12:18.429 --> 0:12:21.190 of the continent, okay? If we're talking about Uganda, say, 0:12:21.510 --> 0:12:26.790 that's where everybody knows about the Nile River, right? And 0:12:26.830 --> 0:12:29.910 the Nile River flows from the middle of Africa, more 0:12:29.929 --> 0:12:34.910 or less, northwards. Do we know this? 0:12:35.530 --> 0:12:40.290 Or it flows southwards from the delta. 0:12:42.090 --> 0:12:48.520 No, it flows from the top of Africa north. Let's 0:12:49.059 --> 0:12:54.050 say 12 o'clock. It flows into the Mediterranean at 12 o'clock. 0:12:54.910 --> 0:13:02.410 This is what's so confusing for people. The origin of 0:13:02.450 --> 0:13:05.830 the Nile is not at the top of Africa. 0:13:05.990 --> 0:13:09.410 It's in Uganda. I absolutely agree with you there. Here's 0:13:09.460 --> 0:13:12.820 the contestation, Bronwyn, and I need to move because I've 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:13.540 got other callers. 0:13:17.070 --> 0:13:18.290 You want it for me? 0:13:18.730 --> 0:13:19.350 Sorry, say again? 0:13:20.830 --> 0:13:22.850 Carry on. Thank you. 0:13:22.950 --> 0:13:25.930 So maybe let me let you go. And then as 0:13:25.990 --> 0:13:28.990 I talk about these different things, I'll be able to 0:13:29.690 --> 0:13:32.060 connect with other callers and then we can all have 0:13:32.100 --> 0:13:35.760 a conversation. Otherwise, it's just a dialogue between Aubrey and Bronwyn, 0:13:35.780 --> 0:13:37.520 which would be great if it was just Aubrey and 0:13:37.540 --> 0:13:42.110 Bronwyn talking. But I take your correction. Thank you. but 0:13:42.170 --> 0:13:45.410 I will also bring out some ideas that I think 0:13:45.450 --> 0:13:49.710 maybe are worth thinking about. Bronwyn in the Valdez, much appreciated. 0:13:51.290 --> 0:13:54.370 Let me speak to Michael in Berea. Hi, Michael. 0:13:55.410 --> 0:13:56.010 Hello. 0:13:56.270 --> 0:13:56.710 Yeah, hi. 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:57.980 Good evening, Braop. 0:13:58.160 --> 0:13:59.620 Yeah, good evening to you, Mike. 0:14:00.460 --> 0:14:04.420 The conversation we had with Thomas Braop, it's so, so, 0:14:04.500 --> 0:14:08.460 so important, man. Okay, how can you send it to 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.020 the president's office? My wife. I'm just wondering if you 0:14:12.100 --> 0:14:15.699 are listening. You know, I feel naked, man. We are 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:21.530 not safe. Our security is compromised like this. How can 0:14:21.570 --> 0:14:23.290 you let this minister say. 0:14:23.850 --> 0:14:28.730 No, they listen. Trust me, they listen. Are you sure? 0:14:28.750 --> 0:14:32.940 Yes, I am sure. Please make a follow-up and let 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:34.920 us know about their response. 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.080 Well, I don't know whether they respond, but I know 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:38.580 that they listen. 0:14:40.410 --> 0:14:43.670 Thank you very, very much, Michael. Thank you very much. 0:14:43.770 --> 0:14:45.480 Michael and Beria, thanks very much. 0:14:46.580 --> 0:14:46.820 Joe. 0:14:47.540 --> 0:14:49.520 So Joe's in Wazir Natal. Hi, Joe. 0:14:50.420 --> 0:14:52.480 Hi, good evening. 0:14:52.500 --> 0:14:53.780 This is Abhila Joe. 0:14:53.860 --> 0:14:59.110 It's gone. Yeah, I just want to correct one thing 0:14:59.470 --> 0:15:02.950 about the River Nile. The source is actually in Kenya 0:15:02.990 --> 0:15:06.130 and Tanzania, in that area. It's much longer. It's the 0:15:06.170 --> 0:15:11.690 longest river in Africa, over 3,000 miles. And the Egyptians 0:15:11.710 --> 0:15:16.600 she was referring to, I think they refer to Nubians. N-U-B-I-N-S. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.900 Yeah. So, okay. 0:15:19.980 --> 0:15:24.840 So there's a place in Kenya called Kisumu. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:26.440 Right. 0:15:28.740 --> 0:15:32.110 And if you're sitting there by the, you can literally, 0:15:34.010 --> 0:15:39.380 you can literally see the water start to drop. And 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.380 that's the beginning. Yeah. 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.600 Yeah, like how we have for the Tugela River in 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:50.840 a mountain of sources in the amphitheater in the Okashlamba. Yeah. 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.580 And it starts off in the rock in the high mountains. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.140 So you are actually more correct to say that you 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.880 need to look where if you're sitting in Kisumu by 0:16:02.900 --> 0:16:07.180 the Lake Victoria, you can literally see the beginning of 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.640 the of the Nile River. There's almost like a little drop. 0:16:11.700 --> 0:16:14.000 It's a big drop, but you can. 0:16:13.940 --> 0:16:20.760 Literally see it. You can actually stand over with your 0:16:20.780 --> 0:16:25.500 two legs where a little rock splits and that's where 0:16:25.540 --> 0:16:28.260 the river starts. The Tugela River. So it's a similar 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.440 concept for most rivers. Start off in a narrow rock. 0:16:32.460 --> 0:16:35.650 But she is correct that it does flow from south 0:16:35.710 --> 0:16:41.250 to north. you know, into the Mediterranean. Okay, there's quite 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.050 a few things on the cover. I'll try and cover 0:16:43.090 --> 0:16:56.030 them quickly. Okay, about the psychology of adversity and success. So, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.080 you know, that's like akin to like the proverb, you know, 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:06.750 failure is a stepping stone to success. So basically, how 0:17:06.770 --> 0:17:10.350 I can put it a bit crudely in layman terms, 0:17:11.030 --> 0:17:14.129 you know, you're going to go through the university of 0:17:14.190 --> 0:17:19.810 hard knocks to become a better person and to, like, 0:17:19.869 --> 0:17:24.330 you know, you become hardened and then that makes you 0:17:24.350 --> 0:17:29.520 sort of see all your mistakes or your problems and 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.720 it makes you become a better person. I don't know 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.360 if you understand what I'm trying to say. 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.100 I understand what you're trying to say, but did you 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.590 hear what my guest was saying about that whole way 0:17:42.630 --> 0:17:49.790 of thinking about adversity? That sometimes we spotlight or we 0:17:49.930 --> 0:17:55.679 platform the idea that we need adversity in order for 0:17:56.460 --> 0:18:00.350 us to be toughened up. And in fact, that's why 0:18:00.430 --> 0:18:04.350 this person is so successful is because they had adversity. 0:18:04.450 --> 0:18:07.570 And we usually are looking at a particular aspect of 0:18:07.609 --> 0:18:13.340 his success, whether it's financial success, academic success, or professional success. 0:18:13.990 --> 0:18:17.479 And we, we focus and we spotlight on that. But 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.399 what he was, was warning us about was to say, 0:18:23.340 --> 0:18:26.100 we're not looking at the entire human being. We're looking 0:18:26.300 --> 0:18:31.040 at a, single aspect of that person and that is 0:18:31.100 --> 0:18:36.639 his success in a single space. We're not looking at 0:18:37.109 --> 0:18:42.050 how successful is he at managing relationships. We're not looking 0:18:42.350 --> 0:18:46.550 at how successful he is at being able to regulate 0:18:46.590 --> 0:18:51.510 his own personality when it comes to competition. And so 0:18:51.910 --> 0:18:54.720 the warning that came out of that conversation was, yes, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.179 let's appreciate success, Let's also appreciate that people have the 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:04.230 ability to overcome certain moments of adversity in their lives, 0:19:04.930 --> 0:19:12.189 but we mustn't make the exception the norm because we 0:19:12.230 --> 0:19:15.540 need to understand that we are actually looking at a 0:19:16.100 --> 0:19:18.240 specific aspect of a person. 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:19.300 Yeah. 0:19:19.500 --> 0:19:23.140 You know, if you go through the biographies and autobiographies of, 0:19:23.180 --> 0:19:26.980 you know, successful photographers, you know, people through the ages. 0:19:27.100 --> 0:19:27.359 Yes. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.359 Basically, okay, they've had failures, but they do have, and 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.020 I mean, the creator gives people this bounce back, you know, 0:19:35.060 --> 0:19:38.379 sort of ability that you, you know, were like sort 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.390 of get out of the rut that you have been in. 0:19:42.170 --> 0:19:45.990 And like, you know, after a dark night, you get 0:19:46.030 --> 0:19:49.350 the dawn and like, you can't see light at the 0:19:49.369 --> 0:19:50.650 end of the tunnel. 0:19:50.670 --> 0:19:50.750 Yeah. 0:19:50.770 --> 0:19:57.050 And then just coming to your second guest, you know, about, 0:19:57.430 --> 0:20:01.670 you know, the sort of gold that's being extracted, like, 0:20:01.710 --> 0:20:08.020 you know, illegally from, like example, from Zimbabwe. you know, 0:20:08.060 --> 0:20:11.659 that ends up in, like, the UAE. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:12.659 Okay? 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:17.350 And now you're getting big multi-nationals. I mean, in South Africa. 0:20:17.369 --> 0:20:21.470 I mean, you know, it is big multi-nationals who are buying. 0:20:21.190 --> 0:20:23.050 The, you know, the gold. Yeah. 0:20:23.230 --> 0:20:27.350 So they are quite complicit in this kind of illegal 0:20:28.330 --> 0:20:30.540 trade or whatever you'd like to call it. 0:20:30.990 --> 0:20:32.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:32.900 Yeah. 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.000 And, yeah, last night, I tried to call you back, 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:42.740 I don't know if you sort of came across this, 0:20:42.830 --> 0:20:48.250 what the German chancellor had to say, Frederick Merz, that 0:20:48.590 --> 0:20:56.160 France should invite or that South Africa should be at 0:20:56.180 --> 0:21:00.630 the G20 table. and that like sort of, you know, 0:21:00.790 --> 0:21:03.610 kind of wrapping him in a knuckle and say, you know, 0:21:03.630 --> 0:21:05.909 what he's doing is wrong. I don't know if you 0:21:05.930 --> 0:21:07.730 came across that, something to that effect. 0:21:08.630 --> 0:21:10.510 Yeah, I think there's been a number of countries. I 0:21:10.530 --> 0:21:14.750 think even Russia has through there. I think one of 0:21:14.810 --> 0:21:21.409 the senior ministers has said similar things. My sense is 0:21:21.470 --> 0:21:28.360 that there is a decision that has been made from 0:21:28.420 --> 0:21:35.439 the American administration that if South Africa doesn't do what 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:41.130 we want, I mean, their ambassador has now come out 0:21:41.210 --> 0:21:45.050 to warn that we need to understand that there is 0:21:45.109 --> 0:21:48.649 going to be some other sanctions that are going to 0:21:48.710 --> 0:21:51.710 be imposed on South Africa in one way or the other, 0:21:51.730 --> 0:21:56.090 whether they're going to be focused sanctions on specific people 0:21:56.150 --> 0:21:59.840 or not, but it'll be sanctions coming the direction of 0:21:59.900 --> 0:22:04.380 South Africa from the United States. But you also heard 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:09.359 the president himself warning that we need to prepare ourselves 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.119 for the fact that we are not going to be 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.480 part of a goer going forward. So my sense is 0:22:16.550 --> 0:22:20.890 that that's fait accompli. We need to just be comfortable 0:22:20.910 --> 0:22:21.990 with the fact that that's coming. 0:22:22.230 --> 0:22:26.030 Much bigger markets to, you know, sort of within BRIC. 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.740 in all the big countries. There's a much, you know, population-wise, 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:32.300 you know, trauma. 0:22:32.340 --> 0:22:40.970 Sure, sure. I'm comfortable with that. But that, besides the 0:22:41.030 --> 0:22:49.230 politics of the conversation, that concession that we've enjoyed for 0:22:49.250 --> 0:22:53.189 a couple of years now has been significant for our economy. 0:22:54.220 --> 0:22:58.000 So it would be sad to lose the benefits of 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:02.340 being part of a Goa. But my sense is that 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.620 we are going to lose our access to a Goa 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.899 as long as we want to be respected as a 0:23:12.940 --> 0:23:18.360 sovereign country. And my sense is that for that reason, 0:23:18.940 --> 0:23:22.199 we can be comfortable with the idea that we're going 0:23:22.220 --> 0:23:24.780 to lose a Goa because I don't see the South 0:23:24.820 --> 0:23:26.879 African government, at least as it is at the moment, 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:29.740 shifting from its position to say, listen, we're not going 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.060 to be told what to do by the United States 0:23:32.100 --> 0:23:35.250 of America. Let's talk, but don't tell us what to do. 0:23:36.030 --> 0:23:39.250 Yeah, but you know, the majority of the products, I 0:23:39.270 --> 0:23:43.610 don't know if they're agricultural, and they're being produced by, 0:23:43.630 --> 0:23:51.340 let's be honest, the majority are commercial, white commercial farmers, like, 0:23:51.380 --> 0:23:56.410 for example, you know, like citrus products and other agricultural products. 0:23:56.570 --> 0:23:58.630 I hear that argument, and I find it dangerous. I'll 0:23:58.650 --> 0:24:02.210 tell you why, Joe. I know what you're saying, that 0:24:05.390 --> 0:24:10.500 the pain will be felt mostly by farmers who are 0:24:10.580 --> 0:24:18.159 in a very specific niche market, and they are fundamentally... 0:24:18.140 --> 0:24:22.090 or they're mostly white farmers. I find that a sad 0:24:22.530 --> 0:24:26.730 conclusion to come to. Because ultimately, these are South African 0:24:27.030 --> 0:24:32.649 white farmers. These are our farmers. As much as it's 0:24:32.690 --> 0:24:34.950 going to hit them, it is going to hit those 0:24:35.010 --> 0:24:37.430 they work for. I mean, those that work for them. 0:24:38.790 --> 0:24:43.730 And so for me, this racial way of thinking about, oh, no, no, 0:24:43.780 --> 0:24:45.020 it's okay. What I mean is.... 0:24:47.830 --> 0:24:52.060 The hypocrisy of Trump and his administration is they are 0:24:52.100 --> 0:24:55.200 harming the very people who they're claiming are being kind 0:24:55.260 --> 0:25:00.830 of genocided, falsely accusing or being, you know, genocided. You know, 0:25:00.850 --> 0:25:05.130 so they are harming the guys here by, like, you know, 0:25:05.170 --> 0:25:09.230 sort of doing away with the goer. And anyway, kudos to, 0:25:09.390 --> 0:25:14.580 you know, the protest. They had quite a comeback. And 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:18.000 it was like a, you know, team effort. And that's 0:25:18.140 --> 0:25:20.980 like sort of, you know, all the guys put their 0:25:21.060 --> 0:25:23.580 shoulders to the wheel and, well, you know, you've got 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:26.720 to give Kemba Babuma, I mean, that was a really 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:28.679 match winning innings that he played. 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.420 Indeed, indeed, indeed. Joe, it wasn't in the town. Keshav, no? 0:25:33.570 --> 0:25:34.530 Yeah, I'm up. 0:25:34.710 --> 0:25:35.450 Hey, ta-da. 0:25:36.590 --> 0:25:37.810 Yeah, I'm up, man. 0:25:37.869 --> 0:25:42.620 When you're talking about David Masovo. Yeah. You still remember 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:46.480 that he was removed as the minister of state security. 0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:49.900 I don't know how did he come back to be 0:25:49.940 --> 0:25:54.940 a deputy minister. And you still remember the scandal where 0:25:55.580 --> 0:26:00.380 he was pictured with a Chinese rhino horn smuggler. 0:26:00.900 --> 0:26:01.600 Yes, I remember that. 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:06.440 What happened to that matter? I don't know. And you 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:12.879 see now, there is this guy... John Hume. Yes. They 0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:17.970 call him the rhino king of South Africa. Yes. So 0:26:18.090 --> 0:26:21.550 this guy, man, their problem is that every time when 0:26:21.590 --> 0:26:26.649 he appears in court, the media, he's not in the media, 0:26:26.670 --> 0:26:29.930 this guy. Why is it so? How does the media work? 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:36.340 Because this guy is very, very, very serious. He's owning 0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:44.230 a rhino farm. And he's got to sell rhino horns. 0:26:45.150 --> 0:26:48.330 And we know this business of smuggling rhino horns, what's 0:26:48.369 --> 0:26:49.030 happening there. 0:26:51.010 --> 0:26:55.169 So you're asking me why is he in the media? 0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:59.540 Why is he not in the media like we see 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:01.600 with other criminal suspects? 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:02.600 Again, I don't know. 0:27:02.640 --> 0:27:03.260 It's not only him. 0:27:03.300 --> 0:27:03.600 Hold on. 0:27:03.660 --> 0:27:04.800 How did you hear about him? 0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:12.920 How did I hear about him? 0:27:13.020 --> 0:27:13.300 Yes. 0:27:16.960 --> 0:27:22.680 No, I was watching something else. And then I came 0:27:22.740 --> 0:27:24.490 across to his name. 0:27:26.430 --> 0:27:27.710 How did you come across? 0:27:27.750 --> 0:27:35.870 Because of his dealings with, because of David Massondo. That's 0:27:35.910 --> 0:27:38.230 how I knew him, because of David Massondo. 0:27:38.690 --> 0:27:39.889 And how did you hear about it? 0:27:41.740 --> 0:27:43.190 How did I hear about it? 0:27:43.190 --> 0:27:46.430 Yeah, how did you get to know about his association 0:27:46.470 --> 0:27:47.389 with David Masson? 0:27:47.510 --> 0:27:51.950 It's because that Chinese guy went to the media with 0:27:52.050 --> 0:27:56.210 pictures of himself and David Masson. 0:27:58.170 --> 0:27:58.990 So you heard about him? 0:27:59.330 --> 0:28:03.730 Hold on, man. Oh, all right. 0:28:04.430 --> 0:28:05.780 So you heard about him from the media? 0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:07.940 No. 0:28:08.660 --> 0:28:09.120 Yeah? 0:28:09.140 --> 0:28:14.440 The Chinese guy. The Chinese guy went to the media 0:28:15.300 --> 0:28:19.540 to say, hey, the minister here, me and the minister, 0:28:19.820 --> 0:28:23.800 here is the picture, me and the minister in the picture. 0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:30.220 Me and the minister, we are smuggling. The guy went 0:28:30.270 --> 0:28:33.370 to the minister, not to say maybe the police were 0:28:33.430 --> 0:28:35.869 hearing that from the Chinese guy for the first time. 0:28:36.390 --> 0:28:38.990