1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,280
Speaker 1: Seven oh two Drive Now, there was a story that

2
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: really caught our eye. It appeared on Media twenty four

3
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,960
Speaker 1: and it deals with a new study that has been

4
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,120
Speaker 1: done down at the University of Cape Town at the

5
00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,640
Speaker 1: Center of Integrated Data and Epidemiological Research, and they feel,

6
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,880
Speaker 1: based on the modeling they've done and the numbers that

7
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,079
Speaker 1: they have crushed, that we are massively in South Africa

8
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 1: underestimating the number of South Africans who've suffered from depression,

9
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,280
Speaker 1: from significant depression. That there's a figure out there that

10
00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 1: says that figure in the country would be around fifteen percent,

11
00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,160
Speaker 1: they're saying it's more like seventy. I don't know what

12
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,600
Speaker 1: figures like these tell us, but they certainly are worth interrogating.

13
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: And we've got someone who is very very active in

14
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,519
Speaker 1: engaging with South Africans who deal with this problem. Cassie

15
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,560
Speaker 1: Chambers is operations director at the South African Depression and

16
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 1: Anxiety Group. Because Chambers, welcome, Thanks very much for giving

17
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,320
Speaker 1: us your time before we get into numbers, and maybe

18
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,680
Speaker 1: we won't actually get bogged down in them at all

19
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,600
Speaker 1: in our conversation, but in general, do you believe that

20
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: we underestimate the extent to which South Africans have faced

21
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,959
Speaker 1: and had to deal with depression. Whether that dealing with

22
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 1: depression has been successful or not.

23
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,760
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think significantly why we're so excited for

24
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,680
Speaker 2: new researchers because we get to see numbers that tell

25
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,840
Speaker 2: us the biggest story. You know, we even know kind

26
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,319
Speaker 2: of pre COVID what that egg was getting per day,

27
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 2: and then what the numbers look like to our whole

28
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 2: line's post COVID. So we've seen that dramatic increase and

29
00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,000
Speaker 2: I think to have numbers and stature tell us actually,

30
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 2: there's a lot more people suffering in silence that need

31
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 2: that help and support is incredibly critical for us to

32
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 2: then be able to go to government, to medical aids,

33
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 2: to companies to say this is why we have to

34
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 2: invest more in mental health. This is a mental health

35
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 2: classes and we should be putting better policies, better programs,

36
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 2: better support, better treatment for patients. Because added to this

37
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,600
Speaker 2: level of data that we have in the researcher tell

38
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,520
Speaker 2: vis that nearly seven and ten adults have developed depression,

39
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 2: we know that the treatment gap in South Africa for

40
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,799
Speaker 2: mental health is very consent. Yes, only one in ten

41
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,919
Speaker 2: South Africans with a mental illness have access to treatment,

42
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 2: meaning nine out of ten people with the mental illness

43
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 2: do not have access to treatment. So these stats tell

44
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 2: us that there's a lot more people that are living

45
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 2: with depression every day, and we should be doing something

46
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 2: more to close.

47
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 1: You just broke up for a second, Cassie Chambers. I

48
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,399
Speaker 1: want to make sure we still got you. Oh, yes,

49
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: you know you still here. Thank you. I didn't want

50
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 1: to ask you another question if we'd lost the line,

51
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,919
Speaker 1: but I'm glad you're with us. Is it possible though,

52
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,920
Speaker 1: that you know, often when there are conversations about the

53
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,679
Speaker 1: under reporting of mental health challenges, there are issues of stigma.

54
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: There are issues of a hostile society, societal environment that

55
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 1: discourages anyone from acknowledging it. But is there a third

56
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 1: element as well, where people are sometimes themselves not sure

57
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:24,280
Speaker 1: that actually what they have is a significant condition. You know,

58
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,240
Speaker 1: because I know people, and I would speak of my

59
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 1: own experience too, I'll say, well, you know, some days

60
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,079
Speaker 1: are better than others, and some days I'm up and

61
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 1: some days I'm down. And it isn't always clear that

62
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: you actually do need help because it's not clear to

63
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 1: yourself exactly.

64
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 2: And I think unfortunately again, we've normalized living with depression

65
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 2: and this is the way it is. And you know,

66
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,680
Speaker 2: also normalize the fact that it's harder to get help,

67
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 2: it's more expensive to get help, it seems more difficult

68
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 2: to get help. And again the nature of the illness

69
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 2: when you're feeling depressed, as you lack motivation, you lack energy,

70
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 2: it's all the contributing factors that make it even more

71
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 2: difficult to reach out. On top of that of where

72
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 2: do I begin, where do I go? How do I

73
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,400
Speaker 2: do this? It's just too much. I'm just going to

74
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 2: leave it. We've got this level of where we've normalized

75
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,800
Speaker 2: just suffering with depression, right, and people are say saying, well,

76
00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 2: this is how I feel. Just live with us, this

77
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 2: is what it means to live in South Africa. And

78
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 2: actually what they don't realize is that long term impact

79
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,160
Speaker 2: of living with depression that's untreated or undiagnosed can have

80
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 2: a lot more serious impact on our physical health, emotional wellbeing, relationships, work,

81
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 2: and all of those factors when you add it together,

82
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,839
Speaker 2: really come and have a negative impact on our day

83
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:44,680
Speaker 2: to day functioning.

84
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 1: One of the things that also concerns me and I'm

85
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 1: not looking to minimize the severity of the things you're

86
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,920
Speaker 1: describing in the treatment gap that you've illustrated for us,

87
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,040
Speaker 1: Cassie Chambers. But sometimes the numbers can be quite static.

88
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,279
Speaker 1: For instance, I'm looking at this report where it says

89
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,040
Speaker 1: there were an estimated three point eight four million new

90
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,039
Speaker 1: episodes of depression in South Africa in twenty twenty four.

91
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,839
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what an episode of depression would be,

92
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 1: And what that figure may not convey is that people

93
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 1: deal with that, people get help with it, people actually

94
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,480
Speaker 1: find a pathway to a better state of mind and

95
00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,599
Speaker 1: a better life for themselves. And I'm wondering how we

96
00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,839
Speaker 1: can factor that in as well, because these are not

97
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 1: terminal cases necessarily, And.

98
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 2: I think what's interesting, and we've also just learned of

99
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,800
Speaker 2: this new research, so we're also going to be digging deeper,

100
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,440
Speaker 2: understanding and working with the research. I think something encouraging

101
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 2: that we can look at when we see the figures

102
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 2: of three point eight million people developing depression in twenty

103
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,920
Speaker 2: twenty four, What is significant is that that's over three

104
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 2: point eight million people who symptoms were severe enough that

105
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 2: they had reached out for help and received a diagnosis.

106
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,320
Speaker 2: That's encouraging because perhaps the previous year there weren't as

107
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 2: many people reaching out for help. So for me as

108
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,240
Speaker 2: that EGG, as a mental health advocacy group, it's encouraging

109
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 2: that people are being able to identify the signs and

110
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 2: symptoms are then reaching out for a proper diagnosis. And

111
00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 2: in the same events when we're thinking, wow, it's a

112
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 2: lot of people and it's a lot of diagnosis, a

113
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 2: lot of depression, what we're also wary of is that

114
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,560
Speaker 2: these are more people that are accessing care, that are

115
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,360
Speaker 2: knowing that something is not okay. I need to get

116
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,480
Speaker 2: the right treatment and whatever that looks like from seeing

117
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,880
Speaker 2: a psychologist, building up the support, going to a GP.

118
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,120
Speaker 2: I mean, the city also reveals some big discrepancies with

119
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 2: regards to access to medication and antidepressants. But for us,

120
00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 2: it's encouraging that so many people are aware of the science,

121
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 2: accessing help and treatment. It tells us that in the

122
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,719
Speaker 2: space where we're at with regards to stigma and mental

123
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,600
Speaker 2: health and after the doom and gloom side of mental illness,

124
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 2: is encouraging that so many people are reaching out and

125
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,080
Speaker 2: are getting diagnosis and that's a big country like a

126
00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 2: big positive factor.

127
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Cassie Chambers, operations director at the

128
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 1: South African Depression and Anxiety Group SADAG. You may have

129
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 1: heard the organization introduced and named that way, maybe you

130
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 1: want to comment on that growing numbers of South Africans

131
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 1: experiencing depression, but Cassie suggesting that if those numbers are

132
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 1: in some way influenced by the number of people actually

133
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 1: reaching out saying you know what I'm battling, I need help,

134
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 1: she would say that there's a positive sign and side

135
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,760
Speaker 1: to that, So you may want to comment on that

136
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 1: aspect as well. O double one eight three oh seven,

137
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 1: O two and seven two seven oh two one seven

138
00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 1: two four minutes to five