1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Everything you need to start your day. We all have 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: a voice, use yours call OH to one double four 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: six oh five six seven, Join the conversation. Talk as 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: you heard with Adam Gilchrist during the Worldview. Greece now 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: the latest country to institute a band on social media 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: for children under the age of fifteen. I, like I 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: guess many people with dependent personalities. I rationalize how and 8 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: how much I use my phone and social media now, 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: but I need to think of interesting things to talk about. 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: I need to stay connected to a new cycle other 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: interesting perspectives on various websites and social media forums. I 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: can use that as part of my show tomorrow. But 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: there's more and more research that is coming out around 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: how social media has in fact been engineered to keep 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: us hooked. The idea that we're just wasting time on 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: our phones simply because we're bored or distracted or maybe 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: lacking discipline, that's being increasingly challenged. There's a growing body 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: of research suggesting that it's far more deliberate when it 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: comes to social media companies, tech companies, that the endless scroll, 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: the doom scroll, as the kids call it, it's not accidental, 21 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: it's quite deliberate. It is planned. It encourages people to 22 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: try and get some form of dopamine heat because maybe 23 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: they just might find something that they like and they'll 24 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: be engaged, and we're in this endless loop of scrolling. 25 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: Kyle Jansea is the research at the center of analytics 26 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: and behavioral change. Way we're experiencing that a little bit 27 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: more and more these days, more research, but also what cases. 28 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: We had a case last week with Meta and Facebook 29 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: and Instagram being found by a California caughte that the algorithms, 30 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: the technology is quite deliberate to keep people who It's 31 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: not necessarily a self control problem. 32 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: Is it good morning less than good morning to your listeners? 33 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: And no, no, it's nothing these corporations do are by 34 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: random or by chance. And with social media, something like 35 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: social media as it has developed over the past few years, 36 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: what it has essentially done is hijack our brains natural 37 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: rewards system. So if you think of it in you're 38 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: sitting at a slot machine, you pull the lever and 39 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: you don't know what you're going to get. You might 40 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: keep the jackpot and or you might not. So as 41 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 2: you're scrolling, this uncertainty of what you're going to get 42 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: and the videos that come up that triggers that openmin Oh, 43 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: I really like this video, You scroll a bit more, 44 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 2: skip of your videos, you get the next video that 45 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: you like, and the algorithm is designed to keep you 46 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: intrigued at tracking exactly how long you spend on a 47 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: particular video. That's why on something like TikTok, the more 48 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: time you spend, the more that algorithm is curated to 49 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: your interests, and that inherent design over there is what 50 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: keeps you on the platform. 51 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm of a generation that has experienced both the digital 52 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: and the analogue. I think my brain had formed already 53 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: by reading books, engaging in magazines and other literature, and 54 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: then another part of my life engaged online. I do 55 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: feel the effects. It's it's it's it's getting increasingly more 56 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: difficult to hold my attention span by by by reading 57 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: a book or some form of printed literature. But but 58 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: what's the research showing on the impact of of of 59 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: a brain that's not yet developed a child's brain in 60 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: maintaining attention span being able to to to hold onto 61 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: a book before the hand goes over and leans across 62 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: to pick up the phone. 63 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: That's quite severe. I was, I was busy doing my 64 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: master's at varsity when this newer generation was sort of 65 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: trickling into the first year of varsity and the like, 66 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 2: and what was in I think this might have been 67 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: two years ago or something like that, And what came 68 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: out research in YEA that they're the literacy rate the 69 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 2: understanding of the content you read. So we have students 70 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: that can read, we have students that can physically engage 71 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: with it, the understanding is not the So everything has 72 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: sort of shifted over to just passive scrolling, being more 73 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: engaged on social media, being more engaged on these platforms 74 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 2: rather than actually sitting down and reading a book or 75 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: reading their textbooks for understanding. They can read, but they 76 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: do not understand it. And we're really seeing that going 77 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 2: down to our secondary education as well as primary education 78 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: and as they come into varsity as well. And now 79 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: what we've see as a consequence of that is over 80 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: alliance on AI and artificial intelligence tools in varsity. That's 81 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: why we're sitting with this huge problem. It's because we're outsourcing. 82 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: And as precisely as you hit the nail on the 83 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: head when you first say that the tension span has 84 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: dramatically reduced. 85 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: One of the words of twenty twenty five by the 86 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: major dictionaries and dictionary websites is the term parasocial. It 87 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: is this online relationship where a one sided relationship. It 88 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: is the parasocial interaction where people form some form of 89 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: identity connection with a media figure with a social media influence, 90 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: or with someone who's videos or pranks they seem to like. 91 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: But there's also some connection to the concept of loneliness 92 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: and people finding that companionship through parasocial relationships. But what 93 00:06:54,960 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: comes first is the disconnect from real, real life social interaction, 94 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: or is that you first become addicted via the algorithms 95 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: and the deliberate nature of our social media gets you 96 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: before you disconnect from from public. 97 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 2: I think two, we need to take a step back 98 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: the first and discuss the social nature of human beings. 99 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: And we are social creatures. And we are social creatures 100 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: because our ancestors survived by relying on group cooperation for protection, 101 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: for food, leading to that evolutionary drive for connection, which 102 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: to this day still shapes our brain behavior and of 103 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: even going as so far as our physical health. We 104 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: are really wired to find maintain relationships. Now there's a 105 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: thing called the social Prain hypothesis, which suggests that our 106 00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: brain expands to manage complex, complex relationships, alliances and social cues, 107 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: and that is still that engagement in person. So what 108 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 2: ends up happening is now we've moved to a more 109 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: high tick I touch a digital environment where it isn't 110 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: that back and forth loop that we are having now 111 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: currently where I speak to you, I get a response 112 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: and there's a feedback. Essentially, it's a one sided interaction 113 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: where someone is saying something to me and I passively 114 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: absorb it, I passively take it in, I go to 115 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: the next person, and I passively at the same time, 116 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: we asked all Wired to find that community, to find 117 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: that connection. However, there's no feedback loop anymore. And the 118 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: last time I was on we discussed these influences than 119 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: the manner spheres. And that's really a direct consequence of 120 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: that because when I, as my brain is developing, as 121 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 2: my knowledge is growing, I'm looking to take in more 122 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: information and usually there's a feedback loop where I question, oh, 123 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: lister is telling me this, but there is no feedback loop. 124 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: What's an influencer? They are saying what their feelings are, 125 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: I passively take it. It becomes a talking point in 126 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: our whether it's online or in my conversations, and i'd 127 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: sapt the test through. 128 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: It's an early lesson for me. But the concept of 129 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: if something is free, then you are the product. You are, 130 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: you are the data farm, your likes and your interactions 131 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: where you linger on longer as adverts commerce directed to 132 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: you anonymousis we have so many things coming at our 133 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: kids nowadays. It's social media, it's vaping, online gambling. All 134 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: these things have been noted to be devastatingly addictive and harmful. 135 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: Why are we letting them slip through the cracks? Parents 136 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: can only do so much. Governments need to stop start 137 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: putting a stop to all of this, and we need 138 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: to hold them accountable when it comes to the pushing 139 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: of ads, you become part of the commerce cycle or 140 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: whether it is the deep impact on mental health? Is 141 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: this a public health issue? Is this a commerce an 142 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: industry issue? A consumer issue? How do we target? How 143 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: do we safeguard all of us, not just children by 144 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: providing the god rails look. Technology is always going to 145 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: be far ahead than the lawmakers. Hecker took thirteen years 146 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: before uber was introduced to South Africa, before we had 147 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: any form of legislation around ehalen cabs. Where does the 148 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: buck stop. 149 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 2: That's a very tough question, and I think that's really 150 00:10:54,400 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: an interaction amongst all of them and knowing is healthy 151 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: social media consumption. But at the same time, we can't 152 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: put that burden, we can't put that onus solely on 153 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: the consumer, precisely because of the design of the platform. 154 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 2: When your platform is specifically designed to keep your attention there, 155 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: to turn you into a product, and that's what it 156 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: has been. I mean, if we just take a step 157 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: back and we look fifteen years ago, say twenty years 158 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: ago as well, our main communications platforms, our social media 159 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: was geared solely for social interactions. It was text messaging. 160 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: You were calling, and that was the function, and that 161 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: was the end all and be all of it. If 162 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: you go onto something like a Facebook, like a Instagram 163 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: or a TikTok, they're engagement platforms, they're engagement farming platforms. 164 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: They're there to keep you. They're more media than social 165 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: media at this point. So it's both a regulation that 166 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: we need to and it's nice. It's good to see Greece, 167 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: Australia did something similar as well, put in place regulations 168 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 2: to prevent the consequences and effects of this. It's also 169 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: building in that, which is tough because we're also sort 170 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: of catching up as we go along. It's not just 171 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: the law, it's us as individuals as well. We're catching 172 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: up as we go along, but putting in the place 173 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: those guard rails with our children, with ourselves as well, 174 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: and making sure that it is a healthy relationship with 175 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: social media instead of just I spend my entire day 176 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: on TikTok, scrolling and the light. 177 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: Carly Answer Research at the Center for Analytics and Behavioral Change, 178 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: really appreciate your time.