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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Motel Money Beth on

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Speaker 1: seven O two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk the talk.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Crotus is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by absur cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

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Speaker 3: across Africa. Download the ABSO Africa Digital Assets Insights at

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. Good evening, Welcome to the Money Show.

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Speaker 3: My name is Mateo Jarribe in for Stephen this evening.

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Speaker 3: Look I'm all rained out. I'm really all rained out,

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Speaker 3: so i won't be talking about any of the weather

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Speaker 3: that we're experiencing in Johannesburg right now. Is just chatting

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Speaker 3: money tonight. You're going to be covering the African Continental

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Speaker 3: Free Trade Area, something introduced in twenty eighteen, but as

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Speaker 3: President Sarama Pasa said yesterday in terms of his visit

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Speaker 3: to Mozabic, it's something that African countries should be taking

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Speaker 3: advantage of all those years later, as it's something that

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Speaker 3: we still need to be talking about. We'll be talking

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Speaker 3: to Dale McKinley, the doctor Dale McKinley, politically economists about

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Speaker 3: how the Free Trade Area is changing trade on the continent.

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Speaker 3: Is it just too slow at the moment in terms

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Speaker 3: of implementation. Then we look at the country's Business Confidence

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Speaker 3: Index coming through with better results, especially before the year

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Speaker 3: it closes. R and B a chief economist. Then Isaiam

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Speaker 3: Sanger will join us for that conversation. Chris Jeort will

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Speaker 3: cover markets for US tonight, looking at some of the

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Speaker 3: results that came out on the JC. I don't know

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Speaker 3: not only that looking at the US because the US

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Speaker 3: FED is set to as set interest rates and we'll

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Speaker 3: see how that will affect our local economy. It is

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Speaker 3: a time for gifting and for those with children, nephews, nieces,

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Speaker 3: they'll know the stress of looking for gifts, especially at

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Speaker 3: toy shops because the prices are quite high. So Afrikaves

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Speaker 3: a six billion rand toy market, will be talking to

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Speaker 3: Toys RASA this evening. Katherine Jacobi, marketing manager at Toys RUSS,

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Speaker 3: will talk us through their strategy for this festive season. Then,

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Speaker 3: the wheels of a rail reform in South Africa seem

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Speaker 3: to be turning, but turning slowly. Attraction, a company that's

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Speaker 3: in the private sector providing locomotives, has invested three point

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Speaker 3: four billion Rand to try and improve South Africa's freight

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Speaker 3: rail We'll be talking to Attraction CEO James Holly later

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Speaker 3: on the show, And when you do your banking transactions

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Speaker 3: and you click on immediate payments, are you aware just

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Speaker 3: how much you are being charged and what options you

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Speaker 3: have outside of those charges. Will be talking to a

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Speaker 3: consumer Ninja Wendy Nola about some of the rights that

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Speaker 3: you have and want to look out for if you

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Speaker 3: don't want to lose your money while transacting on your app.

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Speaker 3: Later on the show, our shapeshift to tonight is FNBCO

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Speaker 3: Harry Kellen talk to us about his career and his

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Speaker 3: journey throughout the financial sector. All that and more on

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Speaker 3: The Money Show Let's Talk Money The.

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Speaker 2: Money Show with Motel Honey bit on seven oh two,

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Speaker 2: Let's Walk the Talk.

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Speaker 3: Or President Rama Pasa recently called on South Africa and

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Speaker 3: Mozambique to take advantage of opportunities presented by the African

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Speaker 3: Continental Free Trade Area to achieve sustainable development and inclusive

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Speaker 3: economic growth. Now it's not the first time we hear

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Speaker 3: something similar. The African Continental Free Trade Area is, of course,

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Speaker 3: a trade agreement to create a single market for goods

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Speaker 3: and services across fifty five of the fifty five African

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Speaker 3: Union member states are covering a market of around one

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Speaker 3: point three billion people on the continent and a combined

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Speaker 3: GDP of around three point four trillion rant so there

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Speaker 3: are opportunities there to take up. But it seems every

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Speaker 3: time there's a bilateral meeting between African member states, it's

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Speaker 3: always something to punt the African Continental Free Trade Area,

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Speaker 3: but very few of them are taking it up. And

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Speaker 3: I want to get into this conversation later with our

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Speaker 3: doctor Dale McKinley political economists, just to look at how

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Speaker 3: good this policy is and whether there's been much take

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Speaker 3: up since it was introduced in twenty eighteen. And all

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Speaker 3: countries like Algeria, Cameroon, Egypt, South Africa and Nigeria as

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Speaker 3: well have gone into starting to trade under this particular policy.

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Speaker 3: But is this something we can fast track in order

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Speaker 3: to boost trade on the continent. But before that we

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Speaker 3: get into business confidence in the countries, though those numbers

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Speaker 3: looking far far better following two consecutive quarters of declines,

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Speaker 3: the Rand Merchant Bank and Bureau of Economic Research Business

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Speaker 3: Confidence Index rising by five points to forty four in

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Speaker 3: the fourth quart of this year, putting confidence three points

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Speaker 3: above its long term average. Isaiamslanga joins us now for

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Speaker 3: that conversation. He's the chief economist at and Merchant Bank.

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Speaker 3: A good a gift for the South African economy. Business

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Speaker 3: confidence looking up another one of the positive numbers that

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Speaker 3: have come in more recently around the South African economy.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, there are three things that I think are important.

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Speaker 4: The confidence is up. The second one is it's broad based,

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Speaker 4: with five of the six sectors rising. Even the sector

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Speaker 4: where sentiment declined, which is building contractors, activity did not decline.

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Speaker 4: This sentiment is closed to its long term average. And

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Speaker 4: then the third one is we are above the long

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Speaker 4: term average on the overall business Confidence Index.

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Speaker 3: And some of the factors driving that improvement are we

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Speaker 3: looking at interest rate cards that we're looking at some

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Speaker 3: of the positive data that's come out more recently, the

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Speaker 3: ratings from SMP Global.

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Speaker 4: Look, it depends differs from subsector to subsector. If you

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Speaker 4: look at the manufacturing sector for instance, with the largest

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Speaker 4: increase of sixteen points to thirty nine, and then you

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Speaker 4: have new vehicle dealers that rose four points to fifty eight.

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Speaker 4: The only subsector to have the majority of respondents about

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Speaker 4: fifty or that are that are satisfied with prevailing business confidence.

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Speaker 4: And then you can also look at retailers up for

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Speaker 4: eleven points to forty three, and then the whole sellers

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Speaker 4: also up four points to forty two. Those subsectors don't

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Speaker 4: have different dynamics, but overall, it is low inflation, which

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Speaker 4: which has helped. It's you know, lower inflation target that

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Speaker 4: has now officially been announced by Treasury, and the sub

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Speaker 4: is now you know, targeting a three percent inflation target.

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Speaker 4: But also it is interest ret reductions that we have

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Speaker 4: seen but also that we expect as we move into

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Speaker 4: next year. Is the credit rating upgrade from SMP, the

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Speaker 4: decline in dat servicing costs that we have seen, you know,

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Speaker 4: post the mt BPS. All of those things have been

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Speaker 4: positive and yesterday's printing GDP does confirm this as well.

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Speaker 4: Weight rows by point five percentage points, the fourth consecutive

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Speaker 4: quarter of positive growth. But also one special thing out

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Speaker 4: of this release that aligns with the improvement in business

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Speaker 4: confidence pros fixed capital formation rose for the first time

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Speaker 4: this year. That says we have turned the corner. The

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Speaker 4: trajectory is positive, even though it's not yet at a

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Speaker 4: pace that we should celebrate.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to get into that capital formation because that

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Speaker 3: GDP number that came out yesterday shows that there's some

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Speaker 3: investment that's coming in from the private sector, and I

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Speaker 3: guess the business confidence numbers are also in line with that,

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Speaker 3: with around forty four or close to a half of

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Speaker 3: respondents this time around saying they're satisfied with current business conditions.

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Speaker 3: And we know when business leaders and CEOs and managers

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Speaker 3: are confident about the economy, they're going to invested more

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Speaker 3: in the businesses.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, but it's not yet time for us to celebrate. Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: Let's hold the champagne, let's put it in the in

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Speaker 4: the fridge. You know, we still need to see a

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Speaker 4: bit more than from a reform perspective, particularly on the

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Speaker 4: logistics sector, the water sector, the municipalities as far as

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Speaker 4: they deal with infrastructure, because that is ultimately where businesses reside,

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Speaker 4: and the difficulty in licensing, in getting permits in road

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Speaker 4: infrastructure at that level of you know, of operation is

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Speaker 4: actually what impacts on business operations. So we need those

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Speaker 4: to continue. Without those, we are likely to see a

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Speaker 4: sustained improvement in confidence, which is so critical before we

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Speaker 4: can expect a boost in fixed investment.

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Speaker 3: And you can there's a lot of confidence from retailers,

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Speaker 3: a lot of confidence from wholesalers. But when you look

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Speaker 3: at the high power terrace in the country and the

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Speaker 3: high price of electricity, should there be some risk or

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Speaker 3: concern for those that are in manufacturing and are using

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Speaker 3: a lot of the country's power.

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Speaker 4: Look, electricity availability is one, but also electricity affordability is

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Speaker 4: the next big issue as far as energy is concerned.

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Speaker 4: If we don't have a competatively priced electricity sector, even

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Speaker 4: if it's available, it means it's going to be just costly.

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Speaker 4: With many other replications also in the economy, for instance,

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Speaker 4: inflation will remain structurally high. We don't have efficiencies in

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Speaker 4: some of these sectors such as electricity and logistics, which

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Speaker 4: would then mean the cost of funding structurally driven by

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Speaker 4: the high inflation, also be higher. So it's it's absolutely

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Speaker 4: important tend to have a cheaper electricity prizes for many

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Speaker 4: of the manufacturers so that they can be also globally competitive.

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Speaker 3: Then, when we look at just how the year has

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Speaker 3: played itself out, it's been quite choppy. This trade situation

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Speaker 3: and shifts that we've seen them play out between the

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Speaker 3: US as well as South Africa. That's been the major

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Speaker 3: story really and look at at those, you know, geopolitics

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Speaker 3: that have also put pressure on emerging economies like South Africa.

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Speaker 3: As we wrap up the year, are we to look

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Speaker 3: forward to a far more positive twenty twenty six? I mean,

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Speaker 3: set aside the G twenty meeting, but just on the

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Speaker 3: broader economic side, is South Africa turning the corner here?

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Speaker 4: South Africa is turning the corner. That's our assessment. And

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Speaker 4: even if we take into account the G twenty, you know,

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Speaker 4: this year it has been a success. For the first

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Speaker 4: time you have a leaders declaration that is reached before

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Speaker 4: the actual leaders summit that has been positive by the

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Speaker 4: absence of the US everything else, Yeah, you know, our

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Speaker 4: view has been have been positive. But if you just

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Speaker 4: look at the developments generally, growth is better this year

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Speaker 4: relative to last year. Inflation is lower this year relative

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Speaker 4: to last year. Interest rates are lower this year relative

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Speaker 4: to last year. We have seen a positive, continued positive

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Speaker 4: growth for four consecutive quarters. We have seen the first

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Speaker 4: upgrades from a credit rating that is not our our our,

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Speaker 4: our our, you know, our doing and extend our rating

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Speaker 4: for the first time in almost twenty years, saying we're

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Speaker 4: seeing positive developments. We are seeing improvement in reforms and

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Speaker 4: therefore we are happy to upgrade you.

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Speaker 2: So that then a lot of positivity.

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Speaker 3: We say that was is Iion saying a chief economists

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Speaker 3: at Rand Merchant Bank. So that's turning the corner ahead

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 5: The Money Shows give you order what you need to

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Speaker 5: navigate the complicated world of economics and commerce, even if

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Speaker 5: you're not a numbers person. The Money Show with Mote

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Speaker 5: there six to eight pm making Money makes.

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Speaker 2: Sense on seven O two and Cave talk.

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Speaker 3: Very interesting story coming through here around a three point

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Speaker 3: four billion Rand rail investment that's going to be going

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Speaker 3: into helping Transmit improve efficiencies in the country. The rail

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Speaker 3: and logistics firm Translate has opened its rail network to

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Speaker 3: private operators to improve its efficiencies and deliveries, and it

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Speaker 3: seems that interest has garnered some investments. So already a

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Speaker 3: company called Attraction are coming through from New Zealand ready

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Speaker 3: to be part of this economy. CEO James Holly joins

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Speaker 3: us now for this particular interview. Three point four billion

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Speaker 3: Ran does not chump change, James, and why did you

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Speaker 3: feel this was a perfect opportunity for Traction?

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Speaker 6: But thanks thanks for speaking to me tonight. You know,

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Speaker 6: we are a third year, eight year old rail freight

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Speaker 6: operator that operates our trains currently in ten countries outside

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Speaker 6: of South Africa, but we are a South African business

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Speaker 6: at heart, and so the operation of trains on the

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Speaker 6: continent is something that we understand very very well. We've

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Speaker 6: also been very involved in the process of public consultation

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Speaker 6: on the implementation of these really groundbreaking reforms for the

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Speaker 6: South African rail sector, and you know, I think this

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Speaker 6: is a real big vote of confidence where we're saying

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Speaker 6: that we're happy with the direction of reform, we're happy

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Speaker 6: with the policies that have been implemented, and they're enabling legislation,

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Speaker 6: and we're ready to make an investment off the back

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Speaker 6: of that. The trains that we buying are coming from

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Speaker 6: New Zealand and we're acquiring them from KiwiRail who's replacing

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Speaker 6: their fleet of web tech locomotives with a new generation

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Speaker 6: of low emissions trains. And there's also a pretty rare

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Speaker 6: opportunity in the cape gauge environment. You know, we operate

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Speaker 6: in the region in a narrow gauge for us to

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Speaker 6: get our hands in a large but a large fleet,

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Speaker 6: but a fleet that's in very good condition. So the

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Speaker 6: two factors came together. It was an opportunity at a

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Speaker 6: time that we felt we had the confidence to invest

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Speaker 6: in South Africa.

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Speaker 3: You would have assessed this particular deal and what's in

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Speaker 3: it for you if one were to ask, quite frankly.

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Speaker 6: Well, this is going to be an extremely high a

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Speaker 6: fleet with a very high reliability and a fleet with

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Speaker 6: a very high capacity. We are going to be firstly

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Speaker 6: buying the locomotives and then together with Waptek, who were

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Speaker 6: the original OEM and who are widely regarded as the

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Speaker 6: world's pre eminent diesel electric locomotive manufacturer, going to be

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Speaker 6: doing a significant upgrade program on the locomotives. And the

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Speaker 6: outcome of that is going to be a very high

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Speaker 6: capacity in a high reliability locomotive, but one that we

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Speaker 6: can deliver to the industry in a very short period

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Speaker 6: of time and at a very cost effective price. So

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Speaker 6: what's in it for us is effectively to be able

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Speaker 6: to bring to South Africa for the first time private

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Speaker 6: rail freight services and private rail freight services on a

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Speaker 6: very cost defective basis.

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Speaker 3: You would have looked at this particular steal structure and

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Speaker 3: some of the infrastructure that South Africa has, is it

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Speaker 3: going to take time to match the locomotives coming through

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Speaker 3: from New Zealand or to have the similar technology in

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Speaker 3: terms of infrastructure and will be easier to roll them out.

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Speaker 6: We already have about twelve of these locomotives operating in

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Speaker 6: our fleet with pretty much identical technology to what we

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Speaker 6: are ultimately going to be left with poster upgrades, and

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Speaker 6: that's part of the fleet that we're operating outside of

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Speaker 6: South Africa. We have fifty five locomotives in our existing fleet,

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Speaker 6: which is the largest private fleet on the continent, so

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Speaker 6: we know the technology very very well. It's also very

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Speaker 6: very similar to technology that Transset has in their fleet.

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Speaker 6: So it's a type of rail of locomotive technology that

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Speaker 6: is extremely well understood by us and by the downstream

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Speaker 6: the darmstream services industry that services the key compos and

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Speaker 6: the key components and these locomotives. So you know, we're

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Speaker 6: very comfortable with the technology we're bringing in here and

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Speaker 6: we've got a very high degree of confidence that it's

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Speaker 6: going to be successfully rolled out.

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Speaker 3: This is a great opportunity then for South Africa's who

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Speaker 3: improve of course its efficiencies and you know lead times

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Speaker 3: in terms of delivery for exports and things like that.

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Speaker 3: We see the opportunity there, but you know, I know

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Speaker 3: South African uwans or unions will be asking around the

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Speaker 3: local content and just how much how many jobs will

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Speaker 3: be created off this particular exercise.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so we're going to be placing about seventy nine

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Speaker 6: percent of the total value of this contract is going

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Speaker 6: to be placed with South African companies. If you look

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Speaker 6: through that, about sixty percent of that it's going to

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Speaker 6: translate to local content. So you know, not only is

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Speaker 6: this an outstanding story for the upstream economy where we're

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Speaker 6: going to be solving about five percent of the freight

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Speaker 6: logistics shortfall in the country. The translate on an annualized

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Speaker 6: run rate basis moves somewhere between one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 6: and one hundred and sixty five million tons. The rail

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Speaker 6: freight demand in the country is two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 6: million tons, and Minister Creasy has said that she has

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Speaker 6: set a target for the industry to meet two hundred

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Speaker 6: and fifty million tons by as early as twenty thirty. So,

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Speaker 6: you know, firstly, we solving one of the big a

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Speaker 6: portion of one of the big constraints to economic growth

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Speaker 6: in the country, but also the project itself is also

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Speaker 6: outstanding for the South African rail industry. And you know,

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Speaker 6: we've had a look at this and engage with our

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Speaker 6: customers and we believe there's about a five times multiplier

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Speaker 6: for every job that can recreates. So our project in

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Speaker 6: traction is going to create six hundred and sixty two jobs,

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Speaker 6: is about a five times multiplier into the upstream economy

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Speaker 6: and then into the downstream economy where we're going to

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Speaker 6: be procuring the wagons, where are we going to be

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Speaker 6: sending the key component parts of these locomotives, and for services,

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Speaker 6: there's of course further job creation in addition to that,

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Speaker 6: So I think on all front it's really a great

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Speaker 6: project for the country.

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Speaker 3: Attraction operates across ten African countries already. Are there any

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Speaker 3: going to be any connections? I'm kind of thinking about

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Speaker 3: the different trade between countries here in the region, the

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Speaker 3: likes of Botswana, Mozambique, Lesto. Are we going to see

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Speaker 3: any tracks connecting between the two in terms of trade.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's something I'm really passionate about.

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Speaker 2: Matali.

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Speaker 6: If you go back about it. Seven years ago, we

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Speaker 6: had the rights to operate our trains in one country

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Speaker 6: outside of South Africa, and that is in Mozambique, and

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Speaker 6: today we have the rights to operate our trains in

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Speaker 6: ten countries. So the same reforms that South Africa has

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Speaker 6: rolled out, which is really allowing the private sector to

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Speaker 6: bring trains and take up the lates in capacity on

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Speaker 6: a section of rail track on the national network and

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Speaker 6: to pay access charges like toll fees for using it

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Speaker 6: is a policy that's been rolled out regionally and has

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Speaker 6: been rolled out at speed, and it has been rolled out

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Speaker 6: to almost all of our trading partners, and that's why

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Speaker 6: we operate in all of those countries now. So the

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Speaker 6: opportunity for private trains to operate from South Africa into

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Speaker 6: the region exists now that didn't exist in the past,

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Speaker 6: and it is something I'm quite passionate about for the future.

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Speaker 6: These trains, though, these forty six locomotives and nine hundred

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Speaker 6: and twenty wagons have been earmarked initially for South African customers,

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Speaker 6: but I am really optimistic about what it means for

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Speaker 6: really efficient regional trade into the future.

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Speaker 2: And when will the train will hit the track.

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Speaker 6: The first locomotives will be available for service within the

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Speaker 6: next twelve months, which is also a really exciting part

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Speaker 6: of this project because the timeline for the delivery of

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Speaker 6: new locomotives from the time that you pay your deposit

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Speaker 6: is typically twenty four months, so to have locomotives and

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Speaker 6: service as soon as this time next year is also

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Speaker 6: a pretty good part.

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Speaker 2: Of this project. All right.

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Speaker 3: That was the CEO, James Holly, the CEO of Traction,

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Speaker 3: a company coming up with a three point four billion

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Speaker 3: rand rail investment, signaling the confidence in South Africa's rail reform.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us here on the

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Speaker 3: Money Show. The Money Show the Market, so a closer

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Speaker 3: look at those markets and how things ended on the DJs.

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Speaker 3: The all share up four hundred and ninety six points,

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Speaker 3: pushed up by banking stocks which are up more than

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Speaker 3: one percent. Are covering our markets today is Chris Joy,

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Speaker 3: portfolio manager at ninety one. Chris Great, chatting to you again.

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Speaker 3: Voluntary update from Netbank. They were talking about just how

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Speaker 3: tough a year it's been this twenty twenty five, but

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Speaker 3: looking forward to a better twenty twenty six. Your assessment

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Speaker 3: of their numbers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good motel.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, we've got a training update out of Needbank, following

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Speaker 7: up from a first round trading update and indeed to

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Speaker 7: standard bank trading update earlier in the week, and we

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Speaker 7: will be hearing.

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Speaker 8: From apps on Monday of next week.

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Speaker 7: And a difficult period I think for all of the banks,

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Speaker 7: as they've indicated, but you know, dare I say it,

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Speaker 7: things starting to look a little bit better, certainly much

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Speaker 7: more optimistic about the outlook for twenty twenty six. We're

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Speaker 7: starting to see corporate credit growth come through. Interest rate

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Speaker 7: decreases are starting to open up a little bit space

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Speaker 7: in the.

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Speaker 8: Consumer wallet to increase borrowing.

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Speaker 7: So we're seeing increased borrowing across particularly the vehicle and

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Speaker 7: asset finance space, as well as the mortgage markets starting

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Speaker 7: to show some signs of life. Improved credit quality also

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Speaker 7: assisting the bottom line for the banks, and some indications

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Speaker 7: that transactional activity is starting to improve.

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Speaker 8: As well, all of which boats well for earnings into

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Speaker 8: next year.

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Speaker 7: And you know, markets being forward looking animals, and with

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Speaker 7: the banks having lagged the markets quite significantly thus far

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Speaker 7: this year, despite the bond yields rallying very very sharply,

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Speaker 7: which are typically good for bank valuations and typically good

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Speaker 7: for the relative performance of banks. You know, they've been

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Speaker 7: relatively poor earnings prospects looking up and as a result

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Speaker 7: that we're seeing the bank starting to go a little

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Speaker 7: bit better. NET Bank included in that pack, despite the

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Speaker 7: fact that they've got some idiosyncratic headwinds. They earned a

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Speaker 7: business called or twenty percent out of a business called Ecobank,

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Speaker 7: which is a Pan African banking operation. They've sold that

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Speaker 7: that's going to leave a little bit of a hole

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Speaker 7: in their earnings both this year and next, which means

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Speaker 7: their earnings growth will lag the peer groups somewhat, but

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Speaker 7: also showing some signs of life in terms of those

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Speaker 7: indicators that I talked to.

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Speaker 3: And there's a painful number of the six hundred million

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Speaker 3: rand one off expense related to the commercial settlement with

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Speaker 3: NET How much will that be a pain then going

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Speaker 3: into next year?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean that's that will have no impact on

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Speaker 7: next year's numbers. They're going to expense it all this year.

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Speaker 7: Depending on the tax status of that expense item, it's

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Speaker 7: going to hit their earnings by somewhere between two and

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Speaker 7: a half and three and a half percent for this year,

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Speaker 7: which will take the wind out of this year's growth,

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Speaker 7: I guess, But equally well, if it is a price

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Speaker 7: that they need to pay in order to I guess,

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Speaker 7: repair their relationship with Transent. Given the amount of infrastructural

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Speaker 7: spend trans Net is flagged, it's sort of twenty five

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Speaker 7: billion round a year for the next number of years.

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Speaker 7: It should pay dividends to get that relationship back on track,

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Speaker 7: as Netbank, within their corporate investment banking business can start

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Speaker 7: to get their fair share of Transnt's business.

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Speaker 3: Into the future list jumped into those US numbers the

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Speaker 3: November private pay rolls unexpectedly falling by thirty two thousand,

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Speaker 3: that number ahead of course of the last FED me

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Speaker 3: between the ninth and the tenth of December. Do you

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Speaker 3: think this will have another nudge towards and interest rate

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Speaker 3: cuts in the US?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it must have a nudge.

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Speaker 7: There's been a plenty of talk in recent weeks, and

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Speaker 7: a little bit of nervousness that the rate cuts that

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Speaker 7: perhaps a month ago had been discounted as almost a

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Speaker 7: certainty in December was somewhat less likely. A number of

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Speaker 7: the Federal Reserve Committee members had made some discomfiting noises,

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Speaker 7: particularly around inflation in the US. So you know, ironically,

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Speaker 7: we're in a position now where short term poor macro

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Speaker 7: data points and you know, a job's number being a

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Speaker 7: particularly relevant one is actually probably quite good news for

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Speaker 7: markets because it increases the likelihood of a redcut, and

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Speaker 7: we all know that equities tend to respond favorably in

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Speaker 7: the short term.

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Speaker 8: To lower interest rates. So you know, poor macro data

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Speaker 8: out of a poer macro.

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Speaker 7: Data points out of the US today means perhaps a

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Speaker 7: greater likelihood of a red cut next week, and that's

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Speaker 7: been relatively positively received by market.

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Speaker 3: Then when we look at the numbers that came out

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Speaker 3: in South Africa, one a good number looking at the

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Speaker 3: business confidence, which you chatted about early on on the show.

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Speaker 3: Another a worrying one looking at the manufacturing sector. In fact,

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Speaker 3: the second PMI number to come out this week, talking

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00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: about weakness in that sector.

440
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, given that we're into the fest of

441
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 7: season and we need to be class half full rather

442
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 7: than class half empty, I guess we can say that

443
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 7: the negative data point is a backward looking or at

444
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 7: worst contemporaneous data point, whereas the positive indicator is more

445
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 7: of a forward looking indicator, and I think that probably

446
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 7: describes where we are in terms of SA macros right now.

447
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 7: It's been a difficult year. It's been a year of

448
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 7: subpar growth. Nonetheless, you know, we've seen some signs of positivity.

449
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 7: We've seen ratings upgrades coming through. As you mentioned earlier,

450
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 7: we're off the fat of playlist. We're seeing increased business

451
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 7: confidence and we're seeing some increased green shoots in terms

452
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,959
Speaker 7: of credit extension. So you know, roughly consistent with what

453
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 7: we've what we've been seeing and hopefully indicative of a

454
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 7: better year to come.

455
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: In good wrap of the markets are Chris Jowan, portfolio

456
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: manager at ninety one joining us for that conversation, Thank

457
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 3: you very much.

458
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: Seven two and Kato Hotel X at Motel Underscore.

459
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: Most of us never really think about toys until you

460
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 3: go shopping with your little ones and they tug at

461
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 3: your hymns trying to get you to buy more toys,

462
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 3: and of course with closer to the festive season, and

463
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 3: this is where that money starts rolling in South Africa's

464
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: toy market at between six to seven billion rand. Look,

465
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: a lot of those kids are terrorizing a lot of households,

466
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: I'll tell you, and a lot of swiping is happening

467
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: to I are some of those toys that we're going

468
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: to chat now to Katherine Jacobe, marketing manager at Toys Rusk. Katherine,

469
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: are welcome to the Money Show.

470
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 9: Thank you, thanks for having me.

471
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 3: I suspect it's not just the little ones are buying

472
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 3: these toys. There must be a whole lot of more

473
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: adults that are still feeding the kids inside of it.

474
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 9: Absolutely. I think we all never really grow up, whether

475
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 9: that's public or secretly. You have a stash of Lego

476
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 9: or hot Field cars in your house somewhere, but we

477
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 9: always are kids at heart, and I think that never ends.

478
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: When you look at the market this year, a lot

479
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 3: of sectors in the country have talked about how tough

480
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: it's been. The consumers are not going into a discretionary spending,

481
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: they're trying to keep their pockets and persons shut. How

482
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: has it been for the toy sector.

483
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 9: Yes, we obviously do see the impact of the state

484
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 9: of the economy, and customers are looking for that affordability

485
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 9: and solution that offers value but still a developmental play

486
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 9: pattern so that their kids are still engaged and playing

487
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 9: with toys. But we do ensure that there is a

488
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 9: range of products that can suit any budget. And the

489
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 9: good thing about the fastest season and gift giving is

490
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 9: that it is an emotional purchase, so it is a

491
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 9: resilient market and no matter what the pocket is, there

492
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 9: is something for everybody. And like I said, it's an

493
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 9: emotional purchase and you will gifting is still on the radar,

494
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 9: no matter if this year it's slightly less than the

495
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 9: year before.

496
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of competition.

497
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: Now if you look at online gaming and all sorts

498
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: of things that we can now do on our phones,

499
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: how are you remaining competitive even as a Toys r US.

500
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: You know, with that type of market where a lot

501
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: of the consumers have a lot of choice, how are

502
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: you getting their attention?

503
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 9: Yes, it is a very competitive market, and I think

504
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 9: as Toys r US we firmly believe in the power

505
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 9: of play and how play can plays a fundamental role

506
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 9: in the development of children. So we very pro screen

507
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 9: free play, and I think that also plays into the

508
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 9: minds of parents these days, is are our kids spending

509
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 9: too much time on screens? There's definitely a place for it,

510
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 9: and we sell that sort of product, but there is

511
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 9: still a demand for original and sort of nostalgic play

512
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 9: patterns that have got various benefits to playing with those toys,

513
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 9: whether it be connecting with family members through a game

514
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 9: of competitive you know, or monopoly, or it is a

515
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 9: role play, you know, building up the shopping basket and

516
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 9: mimicking what your mom and dad do at the grocery store.

517
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 9: So I think as much as that we are seeing

518
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 9: tech and gaming peaking more in the tween category, we

519
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 9: do still see core play patterns and toy categories performing

520
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 9: very well, especially in the younger generations.

521
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: And do those old tricks still work, are putting toys

522
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: at the point of sale, making sure you can drive

523
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: up the sales, or maybe connecting it to a series

524
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: of toys, or maybe using movies as well to try

525
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: and push some of these toys.

526
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 9: Yes, we definitely see the pester power play a big part.

527
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 9: So like you mentioned at the beginning that tugging on

528
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 9: mom's leg at the shops definitely plays a part. But

529
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 9: we do take a lot of inspiration and direction from

530
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 9: our global intelligence and obviously combining that with entertainment or

531
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 9: movie releases and then also monitoring social platforms. I mean,

532
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 9: you can have one product that can become viral overnight,

533
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 9: and it's about managing that demand and obviously not over

534
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 9: investing in a product that has seen a sudden peak,

535
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 9: but being able to ensure that you do have a

536
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 9: supply in the pathline that you can pull on. So

537
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 9: we've got to monitor what is happening globally and then

538
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 9: blend it with what our local market requires, and that

539
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 9: sometimes is affordability, or it might be a local trend

540
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 9: that we need to pick up on. But you do

541
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 9: see a bit of both. So the parents obviously looking

542
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 9: at what's available in the pocket, and then the child

543
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 9: is pulling on what their peers are wanting or what

544
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 9: they've seen on the TV.

545
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: Well, good luck to most of us.

546
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: Will have to try and keep our persons shut as

547
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: the kids cry for the toys. And that it was

548
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 3: Katherine Jacobi, marketing manager at Toys Arrasa talking about a

549
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: very strong South African toy industry value of six billion Rand's.

550
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 10: The Money Show, Steven Protest is brought to you by

551
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 10: abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets across Africa.

552
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 10: Download the ABSUTH Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty twenty five.

553
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Money show.

554
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: Just some of the important numbers that came through today

555
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: the R and BB are Business Confidence Index arising by

556
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: five points to forty four in the last quarter. Almost

557
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 3: half of respondents are satisfied with current business conditions. Are

558
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: confidence improving in five out of a six sectors that surveyed.

559
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 3: The manufacturing sector also seeing an significant improvement. Now, I

560
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: want to talk about the African Continental Free Trade Area,

561
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: and there's something that the President mentioned during his visit

562
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: to Mozambique that both Mozambique and South Africa should try

563
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: and use the African Continental Free Trade Area to do

564
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 3: more business together. I mean, this is something that was

565
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: launched in twenty eighteen. We want to try and see

566
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: just how much it's worked since it's launched, because the

567
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: takeup has been quite slow. Doctor Dale McKinley, political Economists,

568
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: joins us for this conversation. Doctor McKinley look looking at

569
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: the President's comments around neighboring countries using this particular policy.

570
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: Is it something that has been taken up by most

571
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 3: African countries, Because if you think about it, twenty eighteen

572
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: is a very long time ago.

573
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 11: For having me listen, it's you know, the take up

574
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 11: has been, as you mentioned, very slow, and I think

575
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 11: the main reason for that is because most African countries

576
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 11: have yet to understand that, you know, lowering barriers to trade,

577
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 11: and particularly not just trade is in goods and other things,

578
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 11: but also human capital is necessary in order to make

579
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 11: That's what a free trade area is. It's not simply

580
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 11: about private sector investment and opening the doors. It's about

581
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 11: trying to have a developmental agenda, at least that was

582
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 11: what the theory was, and to try to lessen influence

583
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 11: on global markets, particularly Northern Europe and the United States

584
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 11: and others, which we've been historically quite dependent upon, to

585
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 11: try to grow our own markets and to do so

586
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 11: in a sort of developmental way, in other words, creating

587
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 11: jobs and stop stemming the flow of economic migrants as well,

588
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 11: which is a huge thing. And on both counts it's

589
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 11: not just been slow, it's actually been quite a bit

590
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 11: of a failure. I mean, what you mostly have is

591
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 11: you have bilateral relationships, as you saw with the Mozambique

592
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 11: South Africa one earlier.

593
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: On tod and that's that's been the sort of nub

594
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: of it.

595
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, less than twenty countries following countries are

596
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: actively trading under the framework, particularly through the Guided Trade Initiative,

597
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: the likes of Algeria, Burundi, gay No, South Africa, Nigeria, Rwanda.

598
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 3: Is it a matter of political will or maybe this

599
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: infrastructure is not available yet to practically have the trade happen.

600
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 11: Well, Look, the infrastructure of challenges are always there, and

601
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 11: then that certainly can be improved. I mean when can

602
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 11: look at ports and rail links and other kinds of

603
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 11: and of course our continent is probably the most expensive

604
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 11: in terms of air freight and air travel.

605
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 2: So yes, these are.

606
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 8: Things that need to be improved.

607
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 11: But I think that the predominant issue is politics, and

608
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 11: it's a you know, we've entered in I think since

609
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 11: you know COVID in particular, and the rise of Trump

610
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 11: and the sort of narrow nationalisms and you know, our

611
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 11: country first kind of agenda, what we've seen is sort

612
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 11: of a scaling back.

613
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 8: There's a lot of good rhetoric.

614
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 11: You see it in the African Union, you see it

615
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 11: in some of the other regional trade areas. But the

616
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 11: practical reality on the ground is when you don't have

617
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 11: a situation where you have economic stability and political stability,

618
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 11: you can't have trade stability and you can't have markets.

619
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 11: So that's the question that the issue is. We can

620
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 11: talk economics, but unless we talk politics at the same time,

621
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 11: we're not going to solve these issues. And in our continent,

622
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 11: politics tends to jump economics most of the time.

623
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 3: And it's keeping us back. That's doctor Dale McKinley politically

624
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: is talking about the African Continental Free Trade Area and

625
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 3: the slow takeup of that particular policy that could have

626
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 3: Africa at a combined GDP of three point four trillion dollars.

627
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 12: And now The Money Show with Motel Money Bit on.

628
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 5: Seven o two, Let's walk the talk.

629
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Crotez is brought to you

630
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 3: by absce CIB. Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

631
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 3: across Africa. Download the Absent Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty

632
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 3: twenty five.

633
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: The Money Show, Consumer Ninja.

634
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 3: Just a little after seven here on The Money Show,

635
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: and around this time every Wednesday, we have your Consumer

636
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: Ninja and Wendy Nola fighting for your consumer rights, one

637
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 3: case at a time. Wendy, welcome again to The Money Show.

638
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 3: Now I'm that kind of person when I transact and

639
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: I want to send somebody money, I usually press you know,

640
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 3: immediate payment. Of course that comes at a charge, and

641
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: I would rather have that happen than it being delayed

642
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: over a couple of days. But as consumers, will still

643
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: have that option right that you want to opt out

644
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,439
Speaker 3: of being charged extra, but it seems some banks aren't

645
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: doing that.

646
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm gonna tell you this was quite an intriguing

647
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 13: case to me. This is what listener Jean told me

648
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 13: in an email. She says, I could not understand why

649
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 13: my bank charges with my absor account were suddenly so high.

650
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 13: I then discovered that all my payments were being charged

651
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 13: as pay chef that's immediate at seven rand fifty per transaction,

652
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 13: instead of one rand fifty for the regular payment, which

653
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 13: takes a day or two to reflect in the recipients account.

654
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 13: On closer inspection, she's told me, I've now seen that

655
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 13: the appsent bank app starts with you selecting normal payment,

656
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 13: for which the charge is one fifty, And she actually

657
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 13: sent me a screenshot showing this. She says, but the

658
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 13: moment I enter in the amount, the default goes to

659
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 13: PAYSHP without any request from myself. In other words, automatically overrided.

660
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 13: She says. She sent me a screenshot to prove that,

661
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 13: she says, and then it goes to confirmed payment. And

662
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 13: it's only on checking now that I see I've been

663
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 13: sending a pay shep, which, as the which is set,

664
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 13: is the final method of payment now.

665
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 3: Pays Sheep, of course, is a digital digital payment platform

666
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: that allows users to send and receive money instantly right

667
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: between participating banks I think f and b AFSA and

668
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: some of the top banks, and use pays shop as well, right,

669
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: but you can still opt for just the normal transaction

670
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: without the seven run fifty.

671
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 13: Indeed, So admittedly, what I could see from the from

672
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 13: the screenshots that John sent me is that as she

673
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 13: went to press pay, it did say next to it

674
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 13: payship inside the price, she said. But in her mind

675
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 13: she has been choosing normal payment. She has been actively

676
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 13: selecting it for herself, so she's not thinking that that's

677
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 13: been overridden or changed. Okay by the She's just okay,

678
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 13: it's a normal payment. I'm gonna press pay. And actually,

679
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 13: you know this business of us all just wanting the

680
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 13: immediate payment. Sometimes they aren't absolutely necessary. It's just like

681
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 13: a habit of you had to add up what you're

682
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 13: paying for all those instant immediate payments but shocked. Yeh,

683
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 13: it's a good exercise anyway. So so Sean says, quite understandably,

684
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 13: APPSA has more than five million digitally active customers, including

685
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 13: those doing internet banking. Imagine how much extra money they

686
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 13: are reaping due to this default setting.

687
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 4: In the app.

688
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 13: So, yeah, it's a good question. And I took it to.

689
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: ABS and what do they say.

690
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 13: They Well, I was really looking forward to the answer because,

691
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 13: as I say, I had the proof of what was

692
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 13: going on. I couldn't think of why that could be

693
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 13: happening when you think she's paying six round more than

694
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 13: she thought she was paying for every payment. The answer

695
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 13: turns out to be it had to do with the

696
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 13: fact that she was using the old back Bank app

697
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 13: versus the new one, which I don't think she would

698
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 13: be alone in that, not by long Chalk, responding from

699
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 13: on behalf of Appsir Keenan Mayett, who heads up the

700
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 13: bank's retail, International Banking and Payments division of Personal and

701
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 13: Personal and Private Banking, told me we investigated and discovered

702
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 13: that John was using an older version of the apps

703
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 13: of Banking app. The latest version seven point four to

704
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 13: two point four we want to know includes improvements that

705
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 13: enhance the payment flow that she referenced. These updates strengthen

706
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 13: customer control and clarity when selecting between pay shap and

707
00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 13: normal EFTs, and on screen notification confirms that the transaction

708
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 13: is instant, with the option to cancel and choose a

709
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 13: different payment method. The notification also displays applicable fees clearly

710
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 13: to a customer before a transaction is concluded. We will

711
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 13: continue to support our customer to ensure that she is

712
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 13: comfortable with the payment options and that her selections fully

713
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 13: reflect her intent. Incidentally, yes what Jean had to say

714
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 13: about all of this.

715
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 14: Yesterday I received a call from an AXO representative who

716
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 14: asked me to update my app. Once I had done this,

717
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 14: I was keen to trying the app again and see

718
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 14: if it's still defaulted to pay shap.

719
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 8: This time, it still did.

720
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 14: The only difference is that there's now a list of

721
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 14: payment methods and at the bottom a line that reads

722
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 14: instant payment information and fees. You need to click on

723
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 14: the eye next to that and then scroll down through

724
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 14: a menu and again click another error that says view

725
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 14: the fees before you actually see what the fees are so. Unfortunately,

726
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 14: the appstal defaults to pay Shack, and I didn't find

727
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 14: the fees clear at all.

728
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 8: The only reason.

729
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 14: Why I knew that they were there was because I

730
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 14: had been through this experience with the banks representative before Payshack,

731
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 14: the bank had a system where if you clicked on

732
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 14: immediate to Payment, it would always tell you that you

733
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 14: were going to pay higher fees. And they can definitely

734
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 14: do that again to improve the system.

735
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. I think it's one of those things

736
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: that we still need to look closer. Yes, there's all

737
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 3: this convenience that comes with the apps and making sure

738
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 3: that you can send money almost instantly. Obviously that comes

739
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: at a price, but I also think it's still the

740
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 3: bank's responsibility to communicate that if you have an older app,

741
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 3: it might just take you automatically by default, charging you

742
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 3: six rand more for a service you normally pay one

743
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: rund fifty. I think it's another lesson here, Wendy, for

744
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 3: us to look closer as we use this technology.

745
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 13: Absolutely, and just yeah for those apps of clients who

746
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 13: are using the old app to be aware of this,

747
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 13: because I'm very much start to John be the only

748
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 13: one that's had this happen to her. Yeah, so I

749
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 13: also wanted to know, and I haven't given them enough

750
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 13: time to answer, admittedly, But the main thing I just

751
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 13: want to get the warning out.

752
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 8: But I asked.

753
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 13: The bank when did they make the latest version of

754
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 13: this app available for downloading by their clients, and what

755
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 13: percentage of their five million plus digitally active customers are

756
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 13: still using the old one, possibly not realizing that their

757
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 13: regular payments automatically become more expensive than the payshap ones.

758
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 13: So to say, they haven't got back to me. And

759
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 13: also I thought to ask, and the answer is I

760
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 13: haven't got it yet. Is well absolutely refunding the feed

761
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 13: difference to those who actively chose normal payments and then

762
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 13: had that choice automatically de selected and selected rather in

763
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 13: favor of their more pensive pay ship media payment. I

764
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 13: suppose that depends on whether there's digital proof of that.

765
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 13: I mean, these systems must have.

766
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: It, yeah, if you care proof screenshots and things like that.

767
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: But I think the homework now lies with us as

768
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 3: consumers and those that use the apps app as well.

769
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 3: That was our consumer Ninja Wendy Nola talking to us

770
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 3: about banks charging you extra without you knowing when you

771
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 3: press that immediate payment.

772
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: The Money Show on seven owns.

773
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 5: Monday till Friday, six to eight pm.

774
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 3: So look at how the markets end of the day.

775
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 3: Then today they all share up four hundred and ninety

776
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 3: six points, Industrials up in positive territory. But it was

777
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 3: the banking stocks that were up more than one percent

778
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 3: today that pushed up the local jase Pepco up three

779
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 3: point nine percent, Exarro enjoying gains of three percent, Apps

780
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 3: up two and a half percent, with Pan African Resources

781
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 3: up two percent on the day. Around it this hour,

782
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 3: seventeen oh three against a week cut dollar. Of course,

783
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: jobs numbers not hitting or not hitting the right numbers

784
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 3: in the US so at seventeen oh three against the

785
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 3: US dollar, nineteen eighty six against the euro, and at

786
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 3: twenty two ran seventy one cents against a British pound.

787
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 3: A price of gold at four two hundred and five

788
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 3: dollars an ounce of platinum that one thousand, six hundred

789
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 3: and forty seven dollars are bring crude as at sixty

790
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: two dollars sixty seven cents a barrel.

791
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 5: The Money Show on seven eighties Monday till Friday, six

792
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 5: to eight pm.

793
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 3: We were set to bring you business unusual here on

794
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 3: The Money Show, but having a little trouble then out

795
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 3: in Las Vegas, are talking to our gold stock, of

796
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: course at that AWS conference where a new technology AI

797
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 3: and the future of the sector being discussed there. The

798
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,959
Speaker 3: conference are set in Las Vegas. The Amazon Services webs

799
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: services was set to come out today and we're going

800
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: to get other gold Stock to give us the leatest

801
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 3: out of Vegas. But because we can't connect to him

802
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: today and tonight, we're going to be playing you how

803
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 3: to resign gracefully and why it's important for your career

804
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: with our guests at Veta, Menaid at the MD for

805
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 3: Africa at Executive Search for Firm at jack Hammock Global.

806
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: The Money Show, Business unusual.

807
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 15: Well, the question tonight in business unusual, how do you

808
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 15: resign elegantly? We've sort of heard how not to do it? Adreta,

809
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 15: and I do is Africa MD at jack Hammock Global. Adrita,

810
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 15: you sort of sparked a conversation. A lot of people

811
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 15: are quite keen when they resign, or maybe they've been

812
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 15: forced out to go in a sort.

813
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 2: Of blaze of glory.

814
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 15: I know your sensible and rational and you're going to

815
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 15: advise us not to do it.

816
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 12: It's amazing, though, how many sensible and rational people can

817
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 12: let emotions take over them as this one critical moment, though,

818
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 12: isn't it. But I think how you leave is as

819
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 12: important as how you performed when you were with the

820
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 12: company and as where you're going next. It can be

821
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 12: a bit of an inflection pointed defining point in your

822
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 12: professional narrative, because the way you do it will say

823
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 12: whether you have the emotional intelligence and the good reputation

824
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 12: and maturity. But it is kind of like hygiene factor.

825
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 12: When you do it well, it's normal, and when you

826
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 12: do it badly, it's noticed.

827
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 15: I mean, I have not seen some people leave a

828
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 15: company with real class and that left the real impressions.

829
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 15: Just how you leave leave it almost as big as

830
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 15: an impression as how you were at a company.

831
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 12: I think it does. And I think when people do

832
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 12: it in a way that's clear, you know they have

833
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 12: a calm and an intentional conversation about their decision and

834
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 12: importantly about the fact that they're not going to be

835
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 12: open to a counter offer. It doesn't, you know, open

836
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 12: up any messiness. They do it with a proper handover plan,

837
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 12: and they promise that they still going to remain engaged

838
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 12: for throughout the enriches period, and then they have a

839
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 12: bit of a closure. You know, they end with gratitude

840
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 12: and respect, regardless of their circumstances. I think it lands

841
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 12: pretty well because sadly, ultimately people will remember the end

842
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 12: a bit more vividly than the middle, and so it

843
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 12: then just becomes part of your legacy. So it is

844
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 12: incumbent upon you to do it well and do it perfy.

845
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 15: Is it more important to do it well than it

846
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 15: used to be because of our old friends social media?

847
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 12: Social media? Yes, I think you know, you consider that

848
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 12: we live in this hyper connected world, so the rules

849
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 12: are very different than they were in the past before.

850
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 12: If you left a job badly, maybe three people would

851
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 12: know about it, and today it can be three hundred

852
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 12: very quickly. But it's when you think about the hyper

853
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 12: connectedness when you use social media. I think you know

854
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 12: there are people who will go onto LinkedIn and see

855
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 12: that there's a mutual connection. A hiring manager will scan

856
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 12: an online footprint and pick up a phone with a

857
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 12: quick you know how this person leave you work with

858
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 12: him or her like what happens there? And these conversations

859
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 12: are hugely influential, and other than resigning well and performing well,

860
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 12: there's nothing that you can do to control for them.

861
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 12: Because they're informal, they're off the record, they can be

862
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 12: quite candid, and so anyone who's witnessed a poor exits

863
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 12: and this isn't just colleagues, right, it's not colleagues, it's clients,

864
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 12: it's suppliers. They could end up telling a story of

865
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 12: that moment where you may not have shown up at

866
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 12: your absolute best.

867
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 15: Yes, no, I mean, I mean, I think that makes

868
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 15: a lot of sense. One of the other things that's changed,

869
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 15: not the social media media advita obviously, is is the

870
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 15: exit interview.

871
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: And exit interviews I think are very complex.

872
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 15: In fact, we've got a great voice notes on oh

873
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 15: seven two seven, two one seven or two above them.

874
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 16: Hello Jilly, this is Sling from Kliktown. Anyway, I'm not

875
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 16: longer in coporate, but I don't.

876
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: Do excidental views. I just I just refuse.

877
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 17: It's just for me, just waste of my time because

878
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 17: I've moved on and whatever that bothered me, I would.

879
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 16: Have actually trust prior for me moving on. So once

880
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 16: I do resign, I don't do exit interviews. It's just

881
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 16: really total waste of time. What is that that is

882
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 16: going to change for me or for whatever that is

883
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 16: going to be left behind. Yeah, we can have an

884
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 16: informal chat after I've resigned with whoever, but don't give

885
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 16: me the exit interview.

886
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 15: It's an interesting point at VITA. I mean, you know,

887
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 15: if I'm if I'm leaving, why would you care what

888
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 15: I think?

889
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 12: So a couple of things. I mean, I suppose it

890
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 12: depends on why the person is leaving, and I think

891
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 12: that's important. If there was a push factor out of

892
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 12: the company. I think it's probably important for the people

893
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 12: who are left behind or if you plan to return

894
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 12: at some point, that you can give some feedback if

895
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 12: you're comfortable to do so. But this is not supposed

896
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 12: to be a therapy couch. It's not at the time

897
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 12: to go and verbally detonate and you talk about all

898
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 12: the ways in which you were mistreated or unhurt. But

899
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 12: if there is something constructive that you can share about

900
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 12: process and workflow and cultural observations and it still keeps

901
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 12: that cap of professionalism on you, I think that's important.

902
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 12: If it's emotional or personal, absolutely do not do it.

903
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 12: And then if you think about if there's a pull

904
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 12: factor for somebody outside of the organization, it's not that

905
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 12: you know, I'm happy to be leaving where I currently am,

906
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 12: It's just that there's a better opportunity for me elsewhere.

907
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 12: That's also important for a company to know, especially a manager,

908
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 12: that you're leaving behind if there are no hard feelings.

909
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 15: So I get all of that, and that's I mean,

910
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 15: it sounds a little HR because that don't mean that

911
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 15: in a bad way AI is coming for you. But

912
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 15: what I think that one of the reasons people leave

913
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 15: a place is because they don't get on with their boss.

914
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 15: And how do you say that? Because that boss might

915
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 15: be responsible for five people leaving in a month, but

916
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 15: no one's going to say it. And this they can

917
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 15: be honest. So I mean if they took your advice,

918
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 15: which I mean I completely respect Avita, but that they

919
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 15: probably wouldn't say it. And so then for HR and

920
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 15: for the company, an exit interview is kind of useless.

921
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 15: It doesn't f fullest purpose. And isn't that quite complicated?

922
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 15: I mean, I think if you're not honest, then what.

923
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 12: Absolutely, But again, I think if you can make your

924
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 12: point in a way that is divorced from the emotion

925
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 12: and not have a b career damaging and not resign

926
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 12: in a fit of emotion where you've reached the point,

927
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 12: and you've reached it from a fairly intellectual perspective and

928
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 12: you can actually feel comfortable to give the feedback either

929
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 12: to HR or in an ideal world with other colleagues

930
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 12: or somebody who the manager reports you. I think that

931
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 12: is quite important. And again, you know, if there's a pattern,

932
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 12: if an HR department is doing its job in the

933
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 12: way it should be doing it, then they will start

934
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 12: to notice that and they will act on that. Unfortunately,

935
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 12: it's too late for the person who's leaving, but it

936
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 12: could help to improve culture on the you know, in

937
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 12: the longer term. But you know, unfortunately there are also

938
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 12: managers and leaders who receive resignations poorly. So, considering there's

939
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 12: an information and power asymmetry in this case, with you

940
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 12: being the person resigning, it's still incumbent upon you to

941
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 12: make sure you do it in a way that there's

942
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 12: no blowback on you.

943
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,959
Speaker 15: I mean, it's interesting that because I think some people

944
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 15: might feel the only time they can be honest about

945
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 15: the companies just after they've resigned.

946
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 12: That is sad but true. But I think there's still

947
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 12: a way to reinforce your your integrity and go with

948
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 12: grace and make sure that it strengthens your professional network

949
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 12: in the longer term. So if again, if you can

950
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 12: give that feedback in a matter of fact, data driven

951
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 12: way and again divorce yourself from the emotion, that's the

952
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 12: way to do it.

953
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 15: Adviza Night, it's fascinating. Thank you so much, really appreciated

954
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 15: every g MD at jack Hammer Global.

955
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 8: The Money Show shape Shift is.

956
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: Welcome back to The Money Show.

957
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: Around this time on a Wednesday, we speak to a

958
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,479
Speaker 3: shape shifter, any business person in any industry that has

959
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 3: shown an ability to adapt to their conditions, and tonight

960
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 3: we have a very interesting shape shifter in fnbco Harry Kellen,

961
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 3: who's joining us here in studio on The Money Show.

962
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Money Show, Jarre.

963
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 18: Thank you for those kind words, and good evening to

964
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 18: you and good evening to your listeners.

965
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 3: Now, I want to start with your story where you

966
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: change your degree. That's where I want to start because

967
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: I think that's where the trajectory changed for you into

968
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 3: the role that you're in now.

969
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 2: Of coh you could have been a doctor.

970
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 18: No, no, I don't think I was going to be

971
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 18: good enough to be a doctor, but I didn't know

972
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 18: back then as a youngster, didn't know that I actually

973
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 18: did not get into MATS and applined. So then I

974
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 18: took second choice was PC and that whole trajectory or

975
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 18: doing it. And after the first year of BSc disappointing

976
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 18: many people, but then I'm glad I changed to become

977
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 18: and no regrets since then.

978
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 3: I to say, I mean, how many people did you

979
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 3: have to explain to that you were not taking that route?

980
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 18: And mainly mainly moum disappointing that not becoming a doctor, Dad,

981
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 18: disappointing that I wasted a whole year of haard and

982
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 18: cash kind of thing. But yeah, it's more mainly the

983
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 18: family pieces. I think the friends. Friends said, yeah, it

984
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 18: was obvious you should be doing people.

985
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 3: But oswell that ends well, I mean, you were the

986
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 3: CEO of IF today. But let's go back a little

987
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 3: bit to Linasia where you were born and you grew up,

988
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 3: what the community was like then, what type of parents

989
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 3: you had, and some of the discussions you had at

990
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 3: the dinner table that shaped the man you are tonight.

991
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 18: So my mom was a teacher, so she's late. So

992
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 18: she was a teacher, but she was a grade one,

993
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 18: grade two teacher, so very hands on kind of nurturing individual.

994
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 18: As a teacher. My father was headdresser for follow intents

995
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 18: and purposes, a barber working out of Fordsburgh, and that

996
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 18: so the conversations around the table weren't necessary business life

997
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 18: lots of it. Not necessarily a business kind of discussion

998
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 18: at the table, Whereas now I try and make sure

999
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 18: that our dinner table isn't that much business either, because

1000
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 18: life is life is multifaceted, and the discussions around that. Yeah.

1001
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 18: So in the community we grew up in, I mean

1002
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 18: it was an entry level house doesn't come from a

1003
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 18: wealthy privilege. But I mean, you know, when you look

1004
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 18: at where South Africa is and if you're coming from

1005
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 18: an okay middle class, you privileged. So I always see

1006
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 18: myself as coming from a privileged household where education was

1007
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 18: valued and giving me the ability to educate myself. And

1008
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 18: I think that's the biggest value that my parents had

1009
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 18: given me, that opportunity to study. And as you were

1010
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 18: gether as a teacher, she valued education significantly. I mean

1011
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:57,720
Speaker 18: when she was going to teacher's college. I'm an elder sister,

1012
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 18: so family was looking after my sister. But I was like,

1013
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 18: I think I was a surprise come along, and I was.

1014
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 18: Actually I grew up my grandparents in Devin from the

1015
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 18: age of three months or four years, so I'm actually

1016
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 18: quite lucky because I ended up having so many, so

1017
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 18: many people around me that were like in my early

1018
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 18: life was like I had like multiple moms in multiple

1019
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 18: dance because my mother was the eldest and all her

1020
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 18: siblings were younger. So I grew spoilt.

1021
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 3: And as you were growing up as a spoilt young man,

1022
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 3: as you say, were you thinking of a career in

1023
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 3: banking at all? Or were you thinking of yourself in

1024
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 3: a suit somewhere or is it something that came later

1025
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 3: in life.

1026
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 18: So I never saw myself banking, actually never, not in

1027
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 18: the early days, to be honest. I think banking was

1028
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 18: when I started articles in the young days. I think

1029
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 18: it was more in the community we grew up with

1030
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 18: was if you're in the medical field, Actually you were,

1031
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 18: right she going to be an accountant or a CEA

1032
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 18: even wasn't even talked about as a CIA, so seen

1033
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,439
Speaker 18: as an accountant, it wasn't seen as a as a

1034
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 18: as a prestigious career path kind of thing. So it

1035
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 18: was always kind of approach of Okay, you may be

1036
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 18: a little bit clever enough to work out and you

1037
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 18: could maybe get into becoming a doctor. And there's always

1038
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 18: that kind of thing. So that was always at the

1039
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 18: back of your head. That's why you choose subjects like biology,

1040
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 18: so that business no suits actually came into minds when

1041
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 18: I was a kid.

1042
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 3: Let's talk about then the decision you made to move

1043
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 3: into accounting. You then study accounting and as you do articles,

1044
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 3: your career starts to shape. You go through various auditing firms.

1045
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 3: Are still a young person, and with banking, I imagine

1046
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 3: as you walk in then you're walking in an environment

1047
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 3: where there's very older colleagues, and how do you carry

1048
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 3: yourself at that particular time and find a voice in

1049
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 3: that group.

1050
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 18: So, I mean, the one thing you got to go

1051
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 18: is like it's always your approach and attitude. I've always

1052
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 18: had an approach is I don't have the answer to everything.

1053
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 18: I can be confident enough to ask the question. And

1054
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 18: the trick is actually not asking just for the sake

1055
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 18: of asking, asking to actually learn and listen. But I

1056
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 18: mean I was fortunate as well to join Arthur Anderson.

1057
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 18: It was an American culture business as an Orgin firm,

1058
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 18: but it was a small firm. It was one of

1059
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 18: the big five back then. But in terms of its intake,

1060
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 18: I think the Jane's big intake as one of twenty

1061
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 18: first year article clerks, and I think Debyn came down

1062
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 18: with make it the Tea. So it was a small firm,

1063
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 18: but then you actually say you you know, you might

1064
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 18: be one of the t versus one of one hundred,

1065
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 18: makes it a big difference. Sometimes you get noticed differently

1066
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 18: around the piece and yeah, you just got to and

1067
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 18: keep and its attitude of actually delivery, and because it

1068
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 18: was an American firm, it was very harsh on output kind

1069
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 18: of thing. It was glover you don't and it's very known,

1070
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 18: very transparent, you know kind of thing where where partners

1071
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 18: and managers kind of I would see you as a ranking,

1072
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 18: not official ranking, but kind of thing. And then you

1073
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 18: get put on jobs, et cetera. So again I think

1074
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 18: it was more luck and privilege that I got put

1075
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 18: onto banking audits, stockbroking audits in that and that was

1076
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 18: my start into financial services. And then financial services continued.

1077
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 18: I went to Secumbent to London just short of two

1078
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 18: years with Arthur Anderson, and that also was great because

1079
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 18: the things you learn is we South Africa installdom fully

1080
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 18: recognized that actually what we produce South Africa is very

1081
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 18: good quality, top talent across the spectrum. That's why we

1082
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 18: see so many doctors leaving, That's why we see so

1083
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 18: many management teams actually being asked to immigrate, et cetera

1084
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 18: around the piece. And I mean I saw that when

1085
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 18: I got to London finish articles six months later, seconded

1086
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 18: in June. You walk into the London office and because

1087
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 18: Anderson was a worldwide, one single firm, same way of documentation,

1088
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 18: same system, same kind of processes. So I land there

1089
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 18: on a Saturday morning and I start working on a

1090
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 18: Monday morning, gone to a client after the first hours

1091
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 18: of HR doing the urban pieces. But what you realize

1092
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 18: is actually, you know, we might be at the bottom

1093
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 18: end of Africa, but we could I could hold my

1094
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 18: wait with my fellow peers that were in the UK

1095
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 18: market and actually deal with clients. Because now you senior,

1096
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 18: if you can put it that both articles and deal

1097
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 18: with issues and then back then The first job I

1098
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 18: remember was with a client that was thinking of converting

1099
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 18: to a banking business to getting a banking license, and

1100
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 18: it was a debate whether you change from advisory stock

1101
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 18: stock broken business into a bank and Mayawa has plumped

1102
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 18: into the team very quickly, and you think a swim

1103
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 18: and ask them, well.

1104
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 3: I think that was the general consensus. Then simkle swim.

1105
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 3: Very harsh environment. How do you deal with the culture

1106
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 3: shocks at that particular moment. Are you rolling with the

1107
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 3: punches or you having to step back a little bit

1108
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 3: to just take a breather.

1109
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 18: You actually got to be having a mindset of being adaptive.

1110
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 18: So the thing is culture is a microcosm. So you

1111
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 18: could be talking to a group of friends, and let's

1112
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 18: take it. Let's say you've got a group of friends

1113
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 18: from school. Your interactions will be different to the group

1114
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 18: of friends that you have from varsity. It will be

1115
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 18: different interactions to a group of friends that you have

1116
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 18: from your first job or career, et cetera. And that's

1117
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 18: what human natures is adaptive to different kind of things.

1118
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 18: But you've got to be willing to be adaptive. You've

1119
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 18: got to be willing to say, okay, you got to

1120
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 18: with the punches. Nothing is going to be the same.

1121
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 18: There's no constant anything. Actually it changes a constant And

1122
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 18: as I said, you know, I always teach people when

1123
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 18: I when I talk to staff and I go I

1124
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 18: have one mouth, but I have two ears. So listening

1125
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 18: is a more powerful skill. It's two times the value

1126
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 18: of what you say. Now, but why do you listen?

1127
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 18: Because actually, if you're never gonna listen, you're never gonna

1128
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 18: know what to adapt to or not learn, et cetera

1129
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 18: around it. So, yes, mateo, rolling with the punches. Any environment,

1130
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 18: stable or changing or harsh, you have to be able

1131
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 18: to be adaptive to roll with it.

1132
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 3: I deliberately asked that question because at thirty five you

1133
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 3: are chief financial officer, a role some people would think

1134
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 3: even back then it's more suited for somebody who was

1135
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 3: far older. But it was quite clear that as a

1136
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 3: talent then for IF and B you were someone that

1137
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 3: were willing to bank on.

1138
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 18: Yes, I mean the CEO back then was Michael Jordan.

1139
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 18: He was I joined FMB in January two thousand and five.

1140
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 18: He became CEO of F and B in October two

1141
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 18: thousand and four, and in my first two years as

1142
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 18: head of group finance for F and B, I had

1143
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 18: lots of interactions with him, and because I came from

1144
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 18: a corporate finance background, maybe I wasn't talking like a

1145
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 18: traditional finance person and it was always about what is

1146
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 18: the stories behind the numbers and not the numbers itself.

1147
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 18: And I was when I was in finance went back then.

1148
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 18: I used to tell people, give me insights. Don't give

1149
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 18: me the information, give me the insights. And it was

1150
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 18: early part of Michael's CEO tenor, so I was probably

1151
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 18: lucky enough to be in the right place at the

1152
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 18: right time. And then two years later opportunity arized and

1153
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 18: he appointed me as CFO of F and B. And

1154
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 18: I remember questions people canning because he's saying, okay, you know,

1155
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 18: taking over a seat where you got your fellow pears

1156
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 18: that are much more experienced than you, much more experience

1157
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 18: in business, let alone experience from a from a tenor

1158
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 18: in the role and home banking for that matter. You're

1159
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 18: inheriting a team on the finance piece that have been

1160
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 18: there longer in our business, some of them much older

1161
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 18: in age. And how are you dealing with that? How

1162
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 18: are you dealing with people working for you that are

1163
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 18: from a different level. So I go, no one works

1164
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 18: for me. I work with people. People work work, people

1165
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 18: work with people. There is no command control. Humans are

1166
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 18: not command control. People make it command control and they

1167
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 18: make a choice around it. And and the fortunate thing

1168
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 18: is the group. If m B has a very empowered culture,

1169
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 18: so as as as a young here for then I

1170
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 18: was empowered in the role, empowered, et cetera. But also

1171
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 18: an empowered culture doesn't mean that you left alone. And

1172
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 18: actually you know, if you don't, you don't survive all tough.

1173
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 18: It's actually empowered together with were working as a team.

1174
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 18: So it's not it's not just empowered. And says run

1175
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 18: and you're going to sink us from in my previous

1176
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 18: and I but actually we work together. But yeah, so

1177
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 18: the trick about age age is not relevant. And yeah

1178
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 18: sometimes sometimes people are actually you're working with much more

1179
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 18: experience with you. But that's good because then you have

1180
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 18: knowledge that you could lean on. Ask that. The trick

1181
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 18: is always be happy to ask. Most people get to

1182
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 18: the point where if I ask this question, maybe I

1183
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 18: don't look as clever as people think I am. Doesn't matter,

1184
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 18: doesn't matter, It's not about clever You've got to be

1185
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 18: able to actually solve. Business is talking about solving things,

1186
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 18: figuring out what customer needs are solve for customer needs,

1187
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 18: We're never gonna ask, You're never gonna know.

1188
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 3: We'll get more gems than from the FNBCO Harry Kellen.

1189
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 3: He is our shape Shifter.

1190
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 10: Tonight, The Money Show Steele Protest is brought to you

1191
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 10: by Abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

1192
01:06:55,720 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 10: across Africa. Download the as Africa Digital Assets Insights.

1193
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: The Money Show, Shape Shifters and Our Shape Shifter Tonight

1194
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: is FNBCO Harry Kellen telling us about his story throughout

1195
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 1: his finance career, joining F and B in two thousand

1196
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: and five.

1197
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 3: Two years later at the age of thirty five, becoming

1198
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 3: the CFO. You once got an award at the cfour

1199
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 3: was you won the Compliance and Governance Award and there

1200
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 3: you talked about leadership not being about a title or designation.

1201
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 3: What has been your leadership style since you've taken up

1202
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 3: these various roles, So you know, and.

1203
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 18: I've seen you sometimes young leaders getting to see them,

1204
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 18: they feel like they're going to prove themselves. And I

1205
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 18: always remind people to say that role is yours already

1206
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 18: than care so you don't have to prove yourself in

1207
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 18: which case. Actually, and the triquid leadership is and literat

1208
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 18: early on is people are not expecting you to have

1209
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 18: the answers to everything. Okay, so don't don't assume that

1210
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 18: you've got to tell people to do a or b

1211
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 18: et cetera. Yeah, that may be more of a management style,

1212
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 18: but of leadership is actually leading. You're leading other managers

1213
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 18: and ultimately you're leading other leaders. And the environment makes

1214
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 18: a difference as well. So as I said, I think

1215
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 18: I was lucky to learn up in first rand it's

1216
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 18: in an empowered environment. Actually that's as much of that.

1217
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,879
Speaker 18: And my style is actually yeah, the saying goes, surround

1218
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 18: yourself with people more better, cleverer than you are, agree

1219
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 18: on the direction, agree on the strategy, and then stay

1220
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 18: out of the way. But it doesn't mean that you're

1221
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,799
Speaker 18: not there. It's not there that you know. So leadership

1222
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 18: is about trust as well. Yeah, so I always tell

1223
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 18: my team I'll have your back, don't stress. You know,

1224
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 18: part of part of business is failure. You go in

1225
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 18: you know people, if you're not willing to fail, you're

1226
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 18: not willing to learn. If you're not willing to learn,

1227
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 18: we will never be in innovative, you will never change things.

1228
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 18: So it's okay to fail. Intent matters. I've never seen

1229
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,560
Speaker 18: anyone that has an intent to fail, because then I

1230
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 18: would say that's sabotage. So actually, any of these failure

1231
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 18: great assist help lean in when's required to be but

1232
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 18: it's not expected that you've got to do do it

1233
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 18: for them, tell them how to do it each step

1234
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 18: ao boc. They may be the easy requirements. Sometimes someone

1235
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,720
Speaker 18: comes to you and says, okay, I'm battling with A

1236
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 18: B and C. Then that's like whiteboarding kind of thing.

1237
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 18: You might not know the answer for the conversations you

1238
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 18: toss a couple of ideas kind of thing. But yes,

1239
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 18: I mean, the biggest thing about leadership is actually supporting

1240
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:46,559
Speaker 18: the team, making sure that. But it doesn't mean that

1241
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 18: necessarily you can't have tough conversations being a leader. There

1242
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 18: are times that you've got to have a pretty straight

1243
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 18: and tough conversations. And again, it's not a tough conversation

1244
01:09:56,439 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 18: playing the person. It's always about playing the ball, So

1245
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,600
Speaker 18: it's not and you can be different. You can have

1246
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 18: the same conversation about the same issue. Yeah, the person

1247
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 18: walks away feeling very disengaged or disempowered or feeling like, oh,

1248
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 18: hold on, I'm being shut down as a person, or

1249
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 18: rather same conversation. Deal with the issue. The person will

1250
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 18: learn from it. You'll learn from it and actually saw

1251
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 18: and it's an attitude and approach of how you deal

1252
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 18: with it. That's what.

1253
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 2: It's never personal.

1254
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:26,759
Speaker 18: It must never become personal.

1255
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 2: The F and B you.

1256
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 3: Joined in two thousand and five went on to be

1257
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:35,599
Speaker 3: quite aggressive on innovation, willing to fail in terms of

1258
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 3: introducing tech to clients, and they've done quite well over

1259
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 3: the years. You now take over that F and B

1260
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 3: that's going into that is in fact the best innovative bank.

1261
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 3: Where do you think you want to lead the bank

1262
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 3: going forward?

1263
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 18: So fundamentally so, we are still very innovative, but we

1264
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 18: don't do innovation for the sake of innovation. So it's

1265
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 18: it's what's the purpose of the business and the purpose

1266
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 18: of what F and B has always been or help

1267
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 18: And we recognize that we actually in the middle of

1268
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 18: the economy and we yet to serve society, and we

1269
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 18: serve customers across the spectrum of society. So yeah, you

1270
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 18: could be an entry customer, early age or early new,

1271
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 18: new new work, all the way up to an F

1272
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,719
Speaker 18: and B stops at mid corporate large large commercial businesses,

1273
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 18: and then at a given point in time, it's a

1274
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 18: corporate business that will then be dealt with R and B,

1275
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 18: which is dealing with an investment banking piece corporate transactional pieces.

1276
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 18: But our spectrum is quite wide. So even at the

1277
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 18: individual levels, you've got an anty person that maybe could

1278
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 18: be learning I mean say two or three thousand and

1279
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 18: a month, or you're dealing with an alzhigh netwary the individual,

1280
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 18: but you're still serving society and it's full diverse four

1281
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 18: And we've always did for help, So how can we

1282
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 18: help you? As been fmb's actual purpose. And it's one

1283
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 18: of those things that it's a high bar, but it's

1284
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 18: a good bart because actually it forces you to always

1285
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 18: say you are doing something for people. So again the

1286
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 18: innovation piece comes to what are the pain points for

1287
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 18: our customers? What are they needs? Sometimes we got to

1288
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 18: preemptively see needs even before, so we were the first

1289
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:20,720
Speaker 18: to come with sell from banking. We were the first

1290
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 18: to come with the E F and ME banking app

1291
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 18: in this market, but at that point in time none

1292
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:27,800
Speaker 18: of that was in the market. But you've got to

1293
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 18: actually think is what you're trying to solve sell phone

1294
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 18: banking was like in two thousand and six that said,

1295
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 18: still we still offer that as uss t D and

1296
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 18: that was to be able to serve wider community of

1297
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 18: people having given them an early part of digitization where

1298
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 18: it was difficult to get to them in areas or

1299
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 18: actually expensive to serve, and it was specific need that

1300
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,400
Speaker 18: we are trying to solve for wider set up populations

1301
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Speaker 18: South Africa.

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Speaker 3: Great future then for f and b under your leadership.

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Speaker 3: Harry Kellen the FNBC or our shape Shifter tonight telling

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Speaker 3: us about his journey throughout his career in banking and finance.

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Speaker 10: The Money Show Steven Protest is brought to you by

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Speaker 10: Abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets across Africa.

1307
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 10: Download the Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: That was The Money Show tonight. A great conversation we've

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Speaker 3: had there with the FNBCO Harry Kelln our shape Shifter

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01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 3: are talking to us about the changing landscape of banking.

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Speaker 3: Some interesting leadership styles that are far far better for

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Speaker 3: the modern age, if you ask me, Because if a

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Speaker 3: leader can tell you that he's got your back, you'll

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Speaker 3: definitely do your best. Join us tomorrow night as we

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Speaker 3: chat money once again on the Money Show