1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Seven or two, sticking with Parliament and holding the executive accountable.

2
00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,840
Speaker 1: The bumpshell story, of course, emerging yesterday was not only

3
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 1: the senior police officers that were in the dock, but

4
00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: also that the top cop, the country's National Police Commissioner,

5
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,160
Speaker 1: also may be facing some questions. I'm joined now by

6
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 1: another chairperson of a different portfolio committee, this one on policing,

7
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,480
Speaker 1: Ian Cameron Or is a pleasure to talk to you,

8
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine these are easy times based on

9
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 1: what we are hearing about our police.

10
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,200
Speaker 2: Now, thank you bong Ghani. It certainly you know, they

11
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 2: certainly aren't. I think we are in for quite a

12
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,839
Speaker 2: rough ride, especially with a series of the race. I mean,

13
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,919
Speaker 2: I'll get to the National Commissioner now, but to give

14
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 2: you an idea, this really has a massive, massive detrimental

15
00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 2: effect to the whole supply chain process of the South

16
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 2: African service. But that being said, it was bound to

17
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,399
Speaker 2: happen and it needs to happen. We need to clean

18
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 2: up and supply chain for many many years has been

19
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,280
Speaker 2: used as a as a as a funnel for corrupt

20
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 2: dealings in the South African Police Service.

21
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,560
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things and I do want

22
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 1: to focus a lot more on the National Commissioner, because

23
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 1: I mean he now joins and to be clear, it's

24
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,920
Speaker 1: still at this point of course like any citizen, he's

25
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,039
Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty. But he joins a long

26
00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,959
Speaker 1: line of predecessors who also were under a cloud, some

27
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 1: of them resigning, one of course eventually spending time behind bars.

28
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: This is not necessarily something new.

29
00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 2: No, it's not. And it speaks of the integrity management

30
00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 2: crisis in the South African Police service. And you're correct

31
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,680
Speaker 2: in saying, you know, innocent and the proven guilty, but

32
00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 2: the credibility failure and the absolute embarrassment that it just

33
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 2: creates once again for South Africa, especially on the global stage,

34
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,640
Speaker 2: is really significant. I think what makes matters worse is

35
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 2: that with this specific case with Medicaid twenty four, with

36
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,640
Speaker 2: a MEDICAI twenty four contract, is that General Massimola was

37
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 2: told in time by the internal audit team in the

38
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 2: South African Police it was to cancel the contract or

39
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,040
Speaker 2: to chease payment immediately at the beginning of twenty twenty five.

40
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 2: That didn't happen, and the police continue to pay another

41
00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 2: i think just over city million rand to Medicaid twenty

42
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,920
Speaker 2: four Twane, which obviously creates the impression that there was

43
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 2: no urgency to handle the matter. Neil gets his chance

44
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,679
Speaker 2: to explain that he has explained it before the Portfolio

45
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 2: of Committee, before the Order to General has tackled them

46
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 2: about it. But it just seems to be too little,

47
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 2: too late. And in this case SAPs themselves didn't act

48
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 2: against any of these members. This is a move from

49
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,800
Speaker 2: IDAK and not from the South African Police would.

50
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: Does ultimately be simply a crime of omission. My colleague

51
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,520
Speaker 1: John Palman used the word passivity yesterday that we've seen

52
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 1: our National Commissioner on a number of issues being a

53
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,240
Speaker 1: little non chalant.

54
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's difficult. We'll have to see what the court

55
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,680
Speaker 2: process is because he essentially signed off on this. He

56
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,240
Speaker 2: told us last week in the ad Alt Committee that

57
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 2: he had never met with Kat Maclala. There are allegations

58
00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 2: that he did, but they are just that and we'll

59
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 2: need to wait and see evidence. The point is that

60
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 2: he is the accounting officer and when it comes to

61
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 2: an amount of three hundred and sixty million Rand, especially

62
00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 2: in a year where SAT as irregular and thruit, this

63
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,240
Speaker 2: expenditure had grown by over one hundred and fifty percent

64
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,480
Speaker 2: according to the Auditor General report. It really creates a

65
00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,880
Speaker 2: massive concern and essentially he's the accounting authority. The last

66
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,880
Speaker 2: thing I must just mention is that he is also

67
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 2: the one that allowed for the appointment of the current

68
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 2: supply chain head INCEPTS, which is essentially the gateway for

69
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 2: any of these entities to get in. And they were

70
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,719
Speaker 2: told by SIU already I believe in twenty twenty three

71
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,560
Speaker 2: about some of the supply chain issues. Both Minister Tailor,

72
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,920
Speaker 2: former Minister Taylor and former Minister and Tunu were all

73
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,159
Speaker 2: warned about the specific supply chain issue since twenty twenty three,

74
00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:31,400
Speaker 2: and they did nothing about it.

75
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 1: How does it work? I mean, we've got now the

76
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,040
Speaker 1: head of police likely being called to answer to a

77
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 1: criminal complaint. How does it work in terms of the

78
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 1: structures of SAPs, in terms of the investigations into his

79
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 1: own conduct, what line of sight might he have about

80
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,239
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of what is being considered by

81
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,760
Speaker 1: his colleagues against him.

82
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,400
Speaker 2: Well, this is the concern and I think this is

83
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 2: why it probably and I'll need to see what the

84
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 2: investigation entailed eventually, but it's why it's probably better that

85
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,119
Speaker 2: IDAC is heading up this investigation because for too long

86
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,680
Speaker 2: the police and especially the Police Ministry had to be

87
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,880
Speaker 2: their own watchdogs. You know, it's a it's a similar case.

88
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 2: I think you and I have spoken about it before

89
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 2: about you know, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate that falls

90
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 2: under the same minister as the police. So it's very

91
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,400
Speaker 2: difficult to then police the police if you have the

92
00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,320
Speaker 2: same accounting authority. So in this case IDAC is investigating it.

93
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 2: The police have claimed that they are still waiting for

94
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 2: the outcome of a forensic report, but we've heard that

95
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 2: with many of these cases and unfortunately and a large

96
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,039
Speaker 2: majority of them, we didn't see any any outcome of significance.

97
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,040
Speaker 2: And many a time I'll use the Philippy Training Academy

98
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 2: in Cape down. You know, the corruption they just continued unabated.

99
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,000
Speaker 1: Cameron will have to leave it their chairperson of Parliament's

100
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 1: Portfolio Committee on Police. Of course, finding my similar is

101
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: an employee if you will off SAPs, so labor processes

102
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 1: must follow. But when we have a president who is

103
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:24,159
Speaker 1: reluctant to deal permanently with a political appointee, that is

104
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 1: somebody he can just fire at will, he can't do

105
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 1: that to a political appointee. How long do you think

106
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 1: Ma Simola is going to stick around