WEBVTT - Passing of Former President David Mabuza 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.200 That's no account on dd Mabuza the man, and that 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.880 is a politics associate editor for e WNCD. 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:09.559 My dear, she joins us now instudio. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.200 She's been doing qlas all afternoon because who better to 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.400 speak to about about this than her city. Maybe let's 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.800 start with why is everyone on my social media sending 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:19.720 you condolences? 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:21.640 Good evening? 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.200 Sorry for being a being happy go lucky there, But 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:26.920 let me just first start with this. He passed away 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.760 at the hospital here in Santon. The delay in the 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.159 statement from the presidency was because his wife was traveling 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.600 from Barberton from the farm where he lives, so it 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:36.880 took a while from a way to get you, so 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.320 out of respect, they waited for her to see to 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:44.080 see him before they made the formal announcement to the public. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.239 Why am I getting condolences? I've always loved DDBA. It's 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.000 one of my favorite politicians. I've gotten along very well 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.560 with him. I've had interesting engagements. So I think it's 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.080 that I've been very clear that out of all the 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.880 characters in my political landscape, DD Mabuza was one of 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:03.760 my favorites. I mean, I always think about him in 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.360 terms of the rise to twenty seventeen and we'll talk 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:08.440 about I'm sure the role he played in twenty seventeen, 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.920 but going all the way to Bush where he came 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.080 from as well to watch him engaging with his people, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:17.480 I just I think I took in who he was 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.240 as a politician and because there was a particular set 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.679 of notoriety attached to the man, so I think that 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.600 fascinated me. But for me, he was always friendly. I 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.720 always say to people, gave the best tags. Lovely gentlemen, 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.920 relatively quiet, but yeah, and also very clear about like 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.959 when we're doing this as far as the ancies concerned, Ye, 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.520 your the charity of thoughts about actions in the party. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.160 Who was diddy to his people, particularly the people of 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.560 hum puma Langa because he was premier before he became 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.360 deputy president. What did they think about him? How did 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.000 they see him as their leader? 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:56.880 I think it depends on who you ask. 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.280 His premier, but it's also a c chairpist in Puma 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.560 Langa and I think what is scary? And if you 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.639 look at journalist account, there is Msilikazi who wrote about 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.040 Bumlanga and what was like. There's another journalist his name 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.600 is Escaping at the moment who's also written about in Bumlanga. 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.880 So there's a difference of opinions about what it was like. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.600 But I think if we're being honest, words like fear 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:18.519 were used. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.400 That he had a strong hold of the province. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.320 He was inescapable in terms of how much he controlled 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.040 life in plan political life in Burmaalanga. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:28.160 I mean Boma Langa. 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:32.480 Was notorious for political killing, so there a lot of 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.720 insidious issues if he made that stem from the political 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.720 space in Pumaalanga. He didn't try and refute this at 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.360 some point when you were the pre president where people 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.480 conducting interviews would lay claim and killings at his door 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:48.560 and he would come out saying that there's no proof 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.800 of those things, that no court had found him guilty 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.200 of those things. He did try and take a stand 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.200 against some of the claims that were being made against them. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:55.880 So depending on. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.120 Who you ask, and I find that that's something with politicians, Commoso, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.800 is that every time you speak to a different person, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.680 you're a different perspective of who particular leaders are. But 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:05.960 I do think for the longest time when he was 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:07.760 in Malanga, fear was a matter. 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.480 In fact, the conference is of twenty twenty two. 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.040 Towards the twenty twenty two conference and Malanga having its 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.519 own provincial conference, they kept saying we're in tripping you. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.720 We're free now and part of that was because they'd 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:20.640 been able to get rid of people who are aligned to 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.200 ma Wooza at last saying that his hold of the 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.840 province is now gone. So that told you something that 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.480 even when he was at national office, his grip and 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.280 his influence on the province was felt by some people 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.520 who thought they couldn't be outside of him. So he 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.280 remained a factor hu lumblarge even when he was outside 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:38.320 of the province at some point. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.120 And I know it may be difficult to tell, but 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.360 do we know how the man amassed that's so much 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.880 power and influence, you know, I mean I've been reading 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.040 about him, and I mean it says from math teacher, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:54.600 you know, a black consciousness movement enthusiast and read a 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.320 deep part of that, and then he rises to being 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.560 this powerful, mysterious man in that space. 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.160 And that's part of this massively powerful block that was 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.600 around for my President Jacob Zuma called the Premier League. 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.120 I think it's the unions, the student politics, but it's 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:09.840 also the unions. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:11.840 He rose in the unions. 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.520 Right up to start. You must never forget that the 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.480 unions in their lines are incredibly powerful. So there is that, 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.760 but it's also coming into Loqui where he was elected 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.279 into the nec of the ANC and where he stepped 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.839 back to become an ex official and also official. You 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.600 are that because you're holding a provincial position, so you're 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.320 not an ANC member by capacity of the position that 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.320 you hold. So he became a chairperson of Boma lianes 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.000 that rise into being in power and under Zooman being 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.479 excuse me as somebody aligned with the former president that 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.839 I think were part and parcel of that picture. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.720 Talk to me about the Kingmaker, because that's really who 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.120 then he became or we got to know him. 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:52.200 As at the national level. 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.279 At national level, Yes, who is this man and what 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.520 is he doing and what's his role? In twenty seventeen, 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.360 it was very interesting because the past two twenty t seventeen, 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.360 I mean I went everywhere because you're trying to figure 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:04.599 out what is the lay of the land and what 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.920 is the picture. I remember seeing him in Bush and 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.800 they'd been and he was a mysterious figure back then 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.919 had already spent months in the hospital alleged poisoning and 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.320 he came back, which is where that the label of. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:18.240 The cat comes from. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.280 But he uh in the in the leader of to 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.320 twenty seventeen, you'd go and you ask where you alarund 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.360 You know he's a Zuma man, and you think he'd 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.000 want to push for dot I mean Zuma to emerge. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:30.599 But I don't know if people remember you say, hey, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.320 you want unity? We nominating unity? Where people went to 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.159 seeing Puma Langa's regions, what do they nominate? What do 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.320 they want? On the ballots of the anc and then 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.560 all of them wrote unity. That also speaks about the 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.440 kind of control that he had over branches in his province. 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.120 Where you hear you need. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:46.880 To I mean, of course, part of the story around 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.960 Burma Langa being one of the largest provinces was being 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:51.320 told that it's. 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:52.719 It's inflated with bogus branches. 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.760 Again, that speaks to the man and the notoriety attached 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.920 to the man as it is, but he becomes that 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.000 figure that refuses to show his hand for the longest 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.080 time in the lead up to Nazarek and at Nazarek, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.599 just before we are made to believe that he sends 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.400 a PEC to a doctor and Mini Zoom event that 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.800 he's leaning that way, but of course that was not 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.040 to be. He goes to Nazarek and he flips on 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.920 the so called ends slate supporting the Sierra slates. 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:19.960 But there were talks. 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:21.920 I must be honest if I reflect now when as 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.000 I talk about it, the word back and forth about 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.200 how he's meeting with people and my past us, as 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.600 spoke to Guenamantasha this evening. Gudamantasha is the current chair 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.839 of the NCBA. He also served as chair during the 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.320 term with Didi Mabuza, and Gudamntacha said to me, you know, 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.039 after conversations, we're able to persuade each other certain things. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.920 And in twenty seventeen we persuaded him and he agreed 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.720 to tilt Bumlang in a particular direction to stop it 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.039 from going in a particular way. And that's how that 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.599 watershed conference for the Sas seventeen slate came about. And 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.400 I think that people will tell you he put country 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.200 duty first and that he saved the country. But they're 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.560 people who call themetrator. Some people have said to me, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.159 we've decided to forgive him out sign of himself. And 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:02.720 these are people who are alarmed with the so called 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.760 radically gonnament transformation at block that said he betrayed them. 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.279 They spoke to him at the time. He's never really 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.080 explained himself to the country. He's also and that's who 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.119 he is. By the way, He's a quiet person who's 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:15.840 not going to give interviews to everybody. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:16.200 I know. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:21.120 I tried to everybody about what drives particular decisions. You know, 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:22.960 so a lot of people will say to you that 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.040 he had made a decision and they spoke to him 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.840 about it, explained himself to his comrades, and those who 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:30.720 were able to find peace and move on found peace 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.000 and moved on. I suppose to Esmachus Shulis, somebody was 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.160 very close to him once upon a time, and marcas 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:36.560 Uli said, leave the politics. 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:37.480 Those are politics. 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.800 Those were not about the person and the person that 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:41.760 was never affected by the politics. He was a good 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.760 person that related well to him politically did what he did, 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:45.800 that's politics. 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.560 Yeah, and then just took us through Mabuza post twenty 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.600 twenty three. You know, he almost moved into the shadows 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.240 and almost you know, became forgotten. If one may say, 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.160 was he still the big A and C man that 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.960 we knew him to be. Was he working the ground 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:04.680 in that area? 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:05.680 Where was he? 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:07.800 I think before you get to twenty twenty three, you 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.000 need to look at Mabuza during the presidency eight years 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:14.440 he became. His help in ascending Ramaposta led to his 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.040 own ascendency to the high office. He was the country's 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.880 number two citizen, the deputy president. And I think the 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.080 Mabuza was a deputy president was quite meek. And I 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.400 think I can make an argument that the difficulty of 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.040 being a deputy president it's a ceremonial you'll do what 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:28.280 the boss lets you do. 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.040 In essence was the president. So yes, he did this 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.840 AIDS National Aids Council. Yes, I know he gave me. 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.320 He gave me a coffee book, a photobook of all 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:38.160 the work that used to do. 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:39.840 But he was somebody that wasn't seen. 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:41.839 In fact, he drew controversy around having to go to 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.120 Russia for treatment because he did struggle with ill health. Again, 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.840 the poison plots kept coming back and forth during that period. 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.520 So who he was to me in the years of 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:52.559 deputy president. 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.840 Was quite meek and an attempt to make a comeback 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.880 in the ANC in twenty twenty two was too little 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.520 too late in my eyes when he said his interested 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.840 in running, it was too little too late. Then he 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:07.319 goes away to uh goes into retirement. And also quite quietly, 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.000 it wasn't a fight to get diddy Ma Booza to 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.040 resign his deputy as as deputy president alway, not even 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.160 as an MP because then now Solma person needed to appoint. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:17.920 It wasn't a fight to get him to resign as 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.960 an MP. He quietly did it and the announcement actually 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.280 again his loyalty to his people in Boma lang was 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.240 actually made at a funeral, I think his brother's funeral 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.880 in Pomalanga saying yes I am resigning, I'm going to 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.800 step down. And I think that is who the man is. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:32.240 I mean, a lot of the people are spoken to us 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:33.960 say we'll say to you he was loyal to the 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.280 ANC to the very end and we saw that last year. 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.959 Though he went quietly back to Barberton and his farm 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.920 and some people speak about some political life in Boma Langa, 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.560 we actually saw him at a time when people were 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.280 pulling away from the ANC from a President Jacobszuom and 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:49.680 the likes. 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.320 Dd Ma Booz is one of those who. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.160 Came out in twenty twenty four campaigning saying people must 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.559 vote for the A and C. Gweneman Touches said he 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.240 saw him a few weeks ago spoke to me saying 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.040 that they spoke not too long ago and you were 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.440 saying to them, what resources do you need for the 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.680 AEC's campaign next year. Whatever you require, I remain here 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.720 for you. I will help you. He's got these bakkies 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.520 so that you always see a big AC events. 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.440 They belong to d Mabuza. And when. 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.160 Isn't the bakies the resources and he said yes, and 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.480 he said you'll refurbish them and you'll make them available 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.760 for the ANC's campaigns. So he's always been loyal to 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:24.840 them and he'll come out for them when asked to 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.800 do so. And based on the conversations he engaged with 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:28.240 them still 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.080 See the My dear Ewn's Politics editor, I thank you 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.520 so much for spending your time with us.