1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,679 Speaker 1: Let me bring in now Professor Firoskatalia, who's the acting 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Minister of Police. Professor Contallia, thank you so much for 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: making time for us. 4 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: Good morning, Pleasure, Good morning Clement. 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Have you met with President Sima Posa yet to discuss 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: this issue with the National Police Commissioner. 7 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: Yes, just just after the cabinet meeting yesterday, Minister Kubai 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: and myself had a brief meeting with the President. We 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: discussed quite briefly some of the options and he then 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 2: instructed me to I'm going to be present to him 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 2: in writing some reflections on on on how we can 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: how we should respond to the events yesterday, but of 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 2: course this will be the President's decision under the constitution 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: and legislation. And yes, I have had a conversation with 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: General Samola and I will be addressing the Board of 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: Commissioners that's the senior police officers this afternoon. And I'm 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: happy if you've got the time and your inclination to 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 2: discuss with you other steps I've taken I'm planning to 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: take well. Yes, So apart from the what what I've 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: already mentioned, I've asked General Koa, who's responsible for HR management, 21 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: to respond to the possible gaps and capacity gaps that 22 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: we might be created because there's a substantial number of 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: senior police officers who have been charged. Uh so we 24 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: need to take some steps to plug those gaps. Secondly, 25 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: I've had a discussion with General and Timpane. These are 26 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: both you know, senior police officers. They are very competent 27 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: and in my view, very reliable. General Timpan has been 28 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 2: asked I want to set up an intervention team to 29 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: look at procurement in general and how to strengthen the 30 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: control environment because clearly the problem is not just with 31 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: a single contract, which is bad enough, and so we 32 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: need we need to in a sense look at the 33 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: current situation and say, how do we ensure that procurement 34 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: is managed correctly going forward. In that regard, I've had 35 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: a discussion with Minister you know, Gordon Guana, in charge 36 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: of the Treasury, because they usually provide some support for 37 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: a process like this. I will be having a conversation 38 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 2: with order to General. So I want to make sure 39 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 2: that we have a strong intervention team which will include 40 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: outside experts, and I'm going to set up an interim 41 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: governance panel to advise me on the implementation of the 42 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: recommendations of the Atlanga Commission and more broadly on the 43 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: professionalization of the police service. I've had some discussions with 44 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: Professor Fin Kenny of the PIS Public Service Commission along 45 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: these lines, because clearly what we now need to do 46 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: is look ahead and ask the question what kind of 47 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: police service do we want to build in the next 48 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: decade and what are the steps that are necessary to 49 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: change the picture from what it is now to what 50 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: we want to build and achieve. 51 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and thank you so much for that extensive explanation 52 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: of the steps you're going to be taken in the interim. Now, though, 53 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: profit I understand you're going to be writing to the 54 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: President with the different options. He takes the ultimate decision. 55 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: But from your preliminary reflections and the conversations you've had, 56 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: do you think it would be appropriate for the National 57 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: Police Commissioner to still be in the job while he 58 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: ventilates this matter in court? 59 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: Look, this is obviously the key question. It's a critical question. 60 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: If you don't mind, I would like to have that 61 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: conversation with the National Commission and the President before I 62 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,679 Speaker 2: express a view publicly on that matter. 63 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: Okay, And the options though that you have discussed with 64 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: the president. Are you able to confirm if one of 65 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: them has been a possible precautionary suspension. 66 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: Now, yesterday we didn't go into any level of detail, 67 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: and that's why I am and already have a draft 68 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: document that I will send to the Presidency today setting 69 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: out some options. But as I said, said's for the 70 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: President to decide, and let me make it very clear 71 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: that the President is taking, in my view, a very 72 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: correct position, which is to say that IDAC is an 73 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: independent body. It has made decisions to to charge a 74 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: number of individuals, including the National Commissioner. And I must 75 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: point out because I think it's an important fact that 76 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: the National Commissioner has been charged with breaches of the 77 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: Public Finance Management Act, not for the corruption. The public 78 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: may may feel that that's putting too fine a point 79 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: in it, but I feel that I should make that 80 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: point and we're going to have to make a careful 81 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: decision about what our options are now that the National 82 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 2: Commissioner has been charged. 83 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: What's your message to South African's professor Cachalia, Because oh 84 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: my goodness, they just don't know if they can even. 85 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 3: Trust the SAPs. 86 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: We've got a permanent Minister of Police who's on special 87 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: leave or suspended. The head of Intelligence has been charged. 88 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: Now the Police Commissioner is about to be charged. The 89 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: Deputy National Commissioner for Detection for Crime Detection Shadocksbien is 90 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: on suspension. The head of the Hawks and case and 91 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: is on suspension. The head of Organized Crime and houting 92 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: is on suspension. Where does this leave our confidence as 93 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: members of the public in the SAPs. How do you 94 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: assure us that we can still trust this institution and 95 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: its work. 96 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: It's still family in progress. 97 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: Look, this is what I truly deeply believe, and it 98 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: is certainly my responsibility while I am, while I have 99 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 2: executive authority. The issue for me, once we've made an 100 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: assessment of where we are, and it's certainly not a 101 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: pretty picture, is what steps are necessary to define the future, 102 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: to reshape the how policing occurs in this country, to 103 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: build a police service that is worthy of the respect 104 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: and trust of our people. I believe we can do 105 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: that if we start to have a conversation which is 106 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: future oriented, which is constructive, aimed at addressing the fundamental 107 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: problems we can all see. You know, I watch, like 108 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: all like many of their listeners. I've been watching them 109 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: at Langa Commission in the Adult Committee with a mixture 110 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: of despair and anger and outrage. But my responsibility is 111 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: not simply to have feelings and emotions about about what 112 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: is wrong in STAPs, but to see what can be 113 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: done to rebuild the trust that policing depends on in 114 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: the country. I believe we can do that, and I 115 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: will also make this point. The picture that is emerging 116 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: is not the whole story. There are very highly trained, 117 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: highly competent police officers in the leadership of the organization, 118 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: and there are hard working police officers across what is 119 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: a national organization made up of one hundred and eighty 120 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: thousand police officers with police stations across the country, who 121 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: are every day involved in fighting crime. And I worry 122 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: actually that many of them will be looking at what's happening. 123 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: It will be very demoralizing. So I have a message 124 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: for them as well. Let us work together to rebuild 125 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: a South African police service, because we need a South 126 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: African police service that is competent, that is professional, that 127 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: is accountable. And I believe that, you know, we have 128 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: made a lot of mistakes over the last thirty years 129 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: we have to understand what those mistakes have been and 130 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,719 Speaker 2: correct them. And the mistakes have not only been made 131 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 2: by senior management in the police. It's also been made 132 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: by politicians who have abused power, who have overstepped their mandates, 133 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 2: who have not focused on what they were supposed to 134 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: be doing. So there's a lot of blame all around. 135 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: But once once we beyond that, the questions always remains 136 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: what must we do to change this picture? 137 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for making time for us. 138 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: I really appreciated Professor Firosca Chalia, Acting Police Minister, confirming 139 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: on so Know to you this morning that the National 140 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: Police Commissioner is being charged for violating the Public Finance 141 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: Management Act, so not necessarily the corruption that's been reported 142 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: elsewhere in as far as this thrandard and sixty million 143 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: round tender is concerned.