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Speaker 1: Well, the conversation is taking us back into the world

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Speaker 1: of shipping, and I actually can't believe it's already been

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Speaker 1: more than a year since we talked to maritime educator

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Speaker 1: and writer Brian Inpen about the history of the Union

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Speaker 1: Castle Line. That was January last year, and we saw

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Speaker 1: such a huge listener response to that interview that I'm

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Speaker 1: delighted to have a reason to revisit the subject of

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Speaker 1: cruise ships in particular, both past and present, and perhaps

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Speaker 1: we can talk future as well with Brian today. The

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Speaker 1: reason for the conversation is his brand new book called

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Speaker 1: on Passage to Cape Town, a visual history of passengerships

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Speaker 1: at the Fairest Cape. For those who need a reminder,

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Speaker 1: Brian is a former principal of the law Hill Maritime

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Speaker 1: Center in Simon's Town, and I was very sorry to

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Speaker 1: read this morning has just published his last column of

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Speaker 1: shipping news for the Cape Times after twenty one years. Brian,

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Speaker 1: we didn't know about that event when we set this

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Speaker 1: interview up several weeks ago before we talk about the book.

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Speaker 1: If I may ask a question or two, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's really the end of an era, not just for you,

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Speaker 1: but for readers of shopping columns full stop. Because that

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Speaker 1: was the last one, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: It was the last one in South Africa. Cape Times

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Speaker 2: had a shipping tradition going back to nineteen twenty nine

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Speaker 2: when George Young first started and the column grew from

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Speaker 2: a few offerings that he did, a few photographs, a

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Speaker 2: few bits of text, and then it grew to a

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Speaker 2: daily shipping column that he wrote for six days a week.

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Speaker 2: Cape Times came out six days a week and he

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Speaker 2: filled the page and with photos or interesting snippets and

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Speaker 2: so on, except for the war riors. And he retired.

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Speaker 2: It was about nineteen eighty one, and there was a

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Speaker 2: bit of a lull and then a few others took

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Speaker 2: over the mental and then are pitched up in January

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Speaker 2: two thousand and five. And it's been fun, really fun,

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Speaker 2: so very certain.

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Speaker 1: Just to confirm it's not that you are retiring from

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Speaker 1: the column. It is the column that is being retired.

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Speaker 1: For those who are wondering, and I mean Brian, starting

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, think about how much cruise

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Speaker 1: line a passenger passage to Cape Ton has changed in

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Speaker 1: that time and the development of the cruise terminal, the

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Speaker 1: events that you would have seen from the passenger perspective.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, what are some of the big events

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Speaker 1: you covered from from just a global shipping events.

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Speaker 2: Well, the big one has been just recently with the

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Speaker 2: war Iranian War. I mean, that has been phenomenal in

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Speaker 2: its impact on the bunker prices, its fuel prices. It

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Speaker 2: hasn't affected directly the traffic around the cape, but what

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Speaker 2: it did do was it stimulated the Hootie rebels to

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Speaker 2: reignite their tax on shipping and the Red Sea. And

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Speaker 2: so we've got ships coming this way, and so we're

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Speaker 2: likely to see about one hundred, one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: ships off the coast at any given time, passing a

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Speaker 2: given point on the coast each day, and that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of ships. A normal passage past the cape per

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Speaker 2: day would probably be about eighty uh so that begin

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Speaker 2: increased quite a substantial increase. And of course the impact

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Speaker 2: on cruise ships is that six cruise ships remain trapped

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Speaker 2: on the wrong side of the Straits of four Moose,

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Speaker 2: including two that had passed through here to really big

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Speaker 2: German cruise ships Minch of four Man of five, and

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Speaker 2: their cruisers had to be canceled, their passengers had to

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Speaker 2: be flown home in I would think it must have

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Speaker 2: been quite an egg dance to get them out. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but they had to fly all the passengers.

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Speaker 3: Out, so the ships themselves are still stuck there.

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Speaker 2: Ships are still there. And just this morning, I think

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Speaker 2: it was we read that the companies had to cancel

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Speaker 2: the some of the Mediterranean and European cruisers whose ships

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Speaker 2: won't be back in time, and who knows when they

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Speaker 2: will be back.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, I mean I remember seeing mine shaft five importers

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Speaker 1: not so long ago. So okay, really, I mean this

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Speaker 1: is absolutely, you know it, current affairs we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: as much as it's going to be a conversation about

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Speaker 1: historical cruise traffic. These are the stories that continue to

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Speaker 1: capture us today, Brian. The column that you've written all

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Speaker 1: these years dealt with commercial and global shipping developments as

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Speaker 1: well as just passenger liners. The new book solely focused

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Speaker 1: on the passenger element. But of course, in the early

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Speaker 1: days those two would have been conflagrated, wouldn't they Because

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Speaker 1: passenger travel purely for the sake of passenger travel was

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Speaker 1: a much later development in shipping history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if one wanted a cruise way back and hopped

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Speaker 2: on a Union Castle ship one Elements ship that I'm

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Speaker 2: talking from South African point of view, you used one

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Speaker 2: of the normal regular liners and you've got a really

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Speaker 2: nice cruise, a two week cruise to the UK for example.

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Speaker 2: There were the cruises up the coast, the Union Castle

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Speaker 2: and others went up to Derbert and back, so it

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Speaker 2: was very good for Cape Tonians. You really had a

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Speaker 2: lovely ten or whatever it was at sea and in port.

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Speaker 2: And then the Portuguese ships took a number of people

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Speaker 2: up to as far as Baira on the east coast,

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Speaker 2: and some went up to Luanda and caught the next

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Speaker 2: ship coming south. So there were lots of options. The

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Speaker 2: Lloyd Cristino did around Africa service in that one of

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Speaker 2: the ships went clockwise around Africa from South Africa to

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Speaker 2: Italy and the other one went the other way, so

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Speaker 2: and had that option. Sadly the sewers closure in sixty

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Speaker 2: seven foot paid to all that, but it was one

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Speaker 2: of those. Those were the services available on scheduled liners,

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Speaker 2: and when they stopped there was a gap, and cruising

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Speaker 2: worldwide just grew and grew and grew, and also to

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Speaker 2: South Africa. Of course, we had the added problem of Apartet,

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Speaker 2: and many cruise companies did not want to come here,

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Speaker 2: and many passengers or cruise customers did not want to

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Speaker 2: come here, and so there were lull We had Kiwi

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Speaker 2: two coming in a magnificent vessel that attracted a lot

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Speaker 2: of people. We had Canberra making the odd call and

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Speaker 2: so on, but largely just a rare currence. Whereas now

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Speaker 2: there's a crew season that begins in October, it goes

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Speaker 2: to really into June the following year, and although tapers

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Speaker 2: offer b towards the June month, we still have a

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Speaker 2: significant number of ships. We have give or take ninety

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Speaker 2: ships calling this year the screw season, and next season

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Speaker 2: promises to be even more because people are wary of

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Speaker 2: the Middle East now and so caped and many discovered

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Speaker 2: Cape Town because the ships were Many of the cruise

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Speaker 2: ships were rooted via the Cape route to begin their

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Speaker 2: cruises in Dubai or Singapore, Australia wherever from Europe, and

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Speaker 2: they went back via the Cape as well, because at

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Speaker 2: the time the Hooties were disrupting traffic in the Red Sea,

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Speaker 2: as is simply dangerous for ships to even attempt to

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Speaker 2: go through there. And we're seeing that now.

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Speaker 1: So for once, our being far away from everywhere else

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Speaker 1: players in our favor effectually.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but quieter down the stick of the.

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Speaker 3: Words, Brian.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know you have had a fascination for

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Speaker 1: everything to do with the sea and the vessels you

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Speaker 1: sail on her since since early childhood. Do you have

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Speaker 1: a clear memory of the first big passenger liner you

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Speaker 1: laid eyes on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Union Castle ships. I mean I was a

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Speaker 2: real cord Brook when in fact a Nutbrook probably when

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Speaker 2: I came from Durban with a family, we moved to

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Speaker 2: Cape tom My father took up position here and we

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Speaker 2: moved to Cape Town the ol Pretoria Castle that later

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Speaker 2: became Essayernya, and so that was my first inkling I

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Speaker 2: still remember a strange enough, it was eighteen months, but

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Speaker 2: I remember some of that voyage because it's just stuck.

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Speaker 2: And then my father, he was a church employee, didn't

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Speaker 2: have much money, but nevertheless a couple of times we

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Speaker 2: he scraped together enough to take us up to East

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Speaker 2: London where my uncle had a farm. So we had

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Speaker 2: a ball. But again it was Union Castle, Pretoria Castle

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Speaker 2: to East London, Arundal Castle back another time, Athlan Castle there,

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Speaker 2: Edinburgh back so it was part of life. Those Union

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Speaker 2: Castle ships were just part of life, and many South

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Speaker 2: Africans could afford it because the fairs went exorbitant affairs.

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Speaker 2: These days on cruise ships, neither rich can afford them.

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Speaker 2: Although MSc, I must say, have come to the party

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Speaker 2: with their ships on the coast now. And one was

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Speaker 2: through Cape Town this the other day, just embarking two

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Speaker 2: thousand passengers, embarking another two thousand to go on the

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Speaker 2: voyage up to Namibia. And she'll be back on the

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Speaker 2: fourth and I suppose there'll be a repeat of the

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Speaker 2: traffic chaos, but that's the way it is. And MSc

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Speaker 2: have led the way with local cruising, and then we

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Speaker 2: get others. Next week we have Mary two arriving, spectacular

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Speaker 2: vessel for its size, the tradition of Cunard et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And then the others said the mine shift five I

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Speaker 2: think three four and five of Albinia various times they

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Speaker 2: create a stir. They're big ships, and there are others

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Speaker 2: that are going to come and small, big whatever. And

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Speaker 2: the other side of cruising, of course, is that many

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Speaker 2: adventure cruises are now passing this way. And I mean

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Speaker 2: one went into Saldana Bay earlier this week, and I

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Speaker 2: presume the passengers were taken up to the fossil farm

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Speaker 2: there or other sites in Sardana, and she would have

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Speaker 2: called it Mussel Bay as well, so folks could travel

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Speaker 2: to Kango Caves and perhaps part of the Emerald part

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Speaker 2: of the Garden route. So it's growing. And then also

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Speaker 2: Antarctica becomes an attraction now. Shwayo and those sort of

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Speaker 2: places down the southern tip of South America are preferable

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Speaker 2: for ships operating into the Polar waters, but we do

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Speaker 2: get some that come here either on route to the

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Speaker 2: Antarctic Waters or from the Antarctic waters. So it's a

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Speaker 2: nice staging post anyway, and we're going to see more

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Speaker 2: and more cruise ships coming. People have discovered Cape Town

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Speaker 2: and the environs. They've discovered the fact that we've got

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Speaker 2: a cruise terminal waterfront put together a very very nice

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Speaker 2: cruise terminal, and I think that the big thing is

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Speaker 2: that Cape Town could become a cruise destination in itself.

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Speaker 2: And companies also marketing the fact that yes, we are

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Speaker 2: miles away from everywhere else and it takes two weeks

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Speaker 2: or more to get here, but they're marketing that long

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Speaker 2: leisurely voyage, and it's become attractive to people with a

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Speaker 2: call or two at islands or at Welfast Bay. People

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Speaker 2: remember Europeans haven't seen deserts close up. So the desert

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Speaker 2: area north of Wailfast bayockup mount.

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Speaker 3: And side, it's fascinating to see.

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Speaker 2: It's an attraction. Yeah, And these things with clever marketing

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Speaker 2: can be packaged. And then if you take the Indian

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Speaker 2: Ocean with its islands and so on again, a leisurely

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Speaker 2: voyage of x days out to Mauritius and back again,

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Speaker 2: it's a package that a number of lines are exploring

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Speaker 2: and exploiting and attracting people to.

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Speaker 1: And of course the benefit for us here in Cape

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Speaker 1: Town is I mean multiplied, Brian, the benefit we have

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Speaker 1: of those those thinking of the MSc last week. You

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Speaker 1: know that the passengers disembarking spending money in town if

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Speaker 1: they're moving on to another destination, eating in our restaurant's,

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Speaker 1: shopping for curios, whatever it may be. But beyond that,

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Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the knock on spend

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Speaker 1: that happens in the city in terms of engineering, support,

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Speaker 1: provisioning of the ships, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean one ship was here own names, no

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Speaker 2: pactre but a month or two back, the order for

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Speaker 2: eggs alone was one hundred and fifty six thousand rand

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Speaker 2: just for eggs. Wow. But they will buy stocks of

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Speaker 2: meat and milk and flour and you name it here.

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Speaker 2: And so the spend of cruise ships and of the

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Speaker 2: passengers is close to two billion rand per season, and

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Speaker 2: that's a mega amount of money into the local economy.

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Speaker 2: Some passengers take the opportunity of the ship's going Upstade

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Speaker 2: to Durban. They'll disembark here, fly up to Kruger Park,

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Speaker 2: spend a couple of days, they rejoin the ship in

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Speaker 2: Durban and so on. So a lot of other places benefit.

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Speaker 2: I mean places as far afield as the Toasha pen.

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Speaker 2: So you'll find that a ship calls at Wolfas folks

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Speaker 2: will go up to Tasha and then fly to Cape

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Speaker 2: Town and rejoin the ship here. So Southern Africa a

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Speaker 2: whole is a really good package. And as I said,

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Speaker 2: the leisurely voyage itself is the thing that is now

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Speaker 2: being marketed on quite a big scale.

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Speaker 3: I love that idea.

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Speaker 1: Make it about the journey, not just the destination for

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Speaker 1: anybody coming in midway to this conversation. Our guest in

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Speaker 1: studio Brian Ingpen, a renowned maritime educator and writer, and

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Speaker 1: he's just released a new book called on Passage to

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Speaker 1: Cape Ton, which is a visual history of passenger ships

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Speaker 1: at the Cape. An interesting question from one of our listeners, Caro.

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Speaker 1: She asked, how big was the Titanic really compared with

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Speaker 1: today's ships?

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Speaker 2: Quite small really, if you compare her with the biggest

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Speaker 2: cruise ships, wouldn't call her life but but certainly very

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Speaker 2: much smaller. Of course, she had became famous for all

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Speaker 2: the wrong reasons, and that's probably better to focus on

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Speaker 2: real liveships of today than one that gained her fame

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Speaker 2: through a very.

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Speaker 1: Nefarious Fair enough houssain writing are enjoying the chat. As

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Speaker 1: a child, I remember going to the Cape Town Docks

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Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon to see the Union Castle liners

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Speaker 1: leaving from the a Birth at four pm. I left

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Speaker 1: school on a particular day to film the q E

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Speaker 1: two on its maiden voyage to Cape Town. Sadly, the

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Speaker 1: film went to Australia but was never returned. Oh dear,

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Speaker 1: but happy memories despite that, So maybe one day it'll

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Speaker 1: find its way back to you, but thank you for

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Speaker 1: sharing those memories. We've also got a memory come in

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Speaker 1: on the voice note from a Dave which we can

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Speaker 1: take and listen to.

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Speaker 3: Please keep your.

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Speaker 1: Comments and questions coming on seven two five six seven

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Speaker 1: one five six seven.

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Speaker 4: Hi, this is day from Wait it's the Blowberg Side.

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Speaker 4: Nineteen sixty seven. At the age of eight, I traveled.

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Speaker 4: We emigrated from the United Kingdom to Cape Town and

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Speaker 4: we traveled from the first to the thirteenth of September

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Speaker 4: on the esa Arunya previously known as the Victoria Castle.

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Speaker 4: Fantastic trip, especially crossing the line ceremony and watching Neptune,

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Speaker 4: and the ceremony was brilliant for a child of ages

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Speaker 4: of fond memories.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, the crossing the line ceremony, Brian talked to us about,

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Speaker 1: how do we know how far that tradition dates back?

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Speaker 2: Oh many, probably centuries?

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Speaker 1: Yea.

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Speaker 2: And of course if you're going now to Antarctica and

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Speaker 2: you cross the Antarctic Circle or you're going north into

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Speaker 2: the northern polar regions as a crossing the ceremony acrossing

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Speaker 2: the line ceremony for crossing the Arctic Circle. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a great thing on to break the monotony,

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Speaker 2: I suppose of a two week voyage and some interesting

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Speaker 2: anecdotes about that. Union Castle had a commodore called Commodore

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Speaker 2: Georgia Mayhew, and he was a really good people's person,

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Speaker 2: wonderful man. He retired to South Africa actually, and his

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Speaker 2: widow passed away a few years ago. She lived in

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Speaker 2: a retirement village at Berkefleet. Wonderful lady. Wonderful lady, as

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Speaker 2: was Commodore Mayhew. And he contrived that he would be

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Speaker 2: near the pool dressed in his very smart number ones

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Speaker 2: when they crossed the line. And he also contrived that

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Speaker 2: the kids pushed him in. And it was of course

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Speaker 2: everybody was aghast that the kids dare do that, but

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Speaker 2: it was part of his contribution to the fun of

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Speaker 2: the event.

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Speaker 3: Chandmatic, what a lovely memory.

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Speaker 1: Jill, loving the interview, She says, I fell in love

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Speaker 1: with ships when I was four, when we moved to

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Speaker 1: Cape Town from East London.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen fifty eight. As she says in.

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Speaker 1: Eighty five, I was lucky enough to travel to Southampton

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Speaker 1: on board the saf Marine astor fancy cruisers weren't really

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Speaker 1: my thing, so when my children were small, I started

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Speaker 1: taking them on adventure transport holidays on the saff Marine

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Speaker 1: cargo ships. The children only paid half until the age

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Speaker 1: of twelve, as.

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Speaker 3: Was the best of all.

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Speaker 1: In my daughter's twelfth year, we paid for one night

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Speaker 1: and ended up being on board for eight. Lucky lucky you,

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Speaker 1: very nice memory. Still thank you for sharing. For those

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Speaker 1: asking will this be podcast? Absolutely, It'll be on the

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Speaker 1: Prime Media Plus website and app after the show today

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Speaker 1: if you want to share it with anybody who wasn't

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Speaker 1: able to listen today.

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Speaker 3: Brian, just to.

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Speaker 1: Get back to the book before we run out of time,

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Speaker 1: what was your intention in putting this book together? And

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Speaker 1: I mean fantastic photography and artists, renditions, etc. And a

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Speaker 1: history of the different ships over the different eras and

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Speaker 1: the interiors and the news coverage, etc. So who do

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Speaker 1: you have in mind as your reader when you created

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Speaker 1: this book.

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Speaker 2: First of all, it was the Waterfront's idea to put

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Speaker 2: it together because their cruise terminal had been operating since

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen and so they asked me to put it

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Speaker 2: together and we did and had wonderful contributions from people.

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Speaker 2: Captain Karen Cox, who sailed as a passenger and several

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Speaker 2: of the cruise ships. And then we also had Captain

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Speaker 2: Aubrey de Brain, part of the Border Management Service here,

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Speaker 2: who took some really stunning pictures of ships arriving at

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Speaker 2: night and all that, and then of course we go back.

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Speaker 2: I have got a privilege of the George Young collection.

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Speaker 2: He was in the harbor for forty something years taking

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Speaker 2: pictures of ships every day, and so we got a

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Speaker 2: few out of there. But anyway we put together these

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Speaker 2: pictures are a bit of commentary and hopefully those who

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Speaker 2: remember the days of passengerships, or those who see the

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Speaker 2: big cruise ships arriving now will be, shall we say,

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Speaker 2: moved to buy a copy and they can email me

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Speaker 2: with my email, which I think you folks have, and

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Speaker 2: they can email me and I'll start the rolling for them.

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Speaker 3: Oh you happy to share that email on air, would you?

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Speaker 1: Hut? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Brian at Cape Ports with an S on the end,

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Speaker 2: Capeports dot.

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Speaker 1: Coza, Capeportspleural dot COSA, and it's Brian with an I.

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Speaker 1: Before we must say goodbye, Brian, I have to ask

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Speaker 1: one last question. If we were living in another world

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Speaker 1: where educators and writers were paid the same salaries as

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Speaker 1: multinational CEOs. Would you be living on border cruiser permanently

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Speaker 1: instead of speaking to problem Cape.

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Speaker 2: I would prefer to be on a cargo trampship going

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Speaker 2: to some out of the way places.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, listen.

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Speaker 1: As always, just wonderful to listen to you bring these

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Speaker 1: eerrors of the past to life, and you know, weave

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Speaker 1: it together so thoughtfully with what is happening currently and

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Speaker 1: looking to the future. Highly entertaining as always, Brian and

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Speaker 1: I hope our listeners will reach out to you to

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Speaker 1: grab copies for themselves of the new book on Passage

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Speaker 1: to Cape Ton. Pleasure to have you with us, and

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Speaker 1: your column is going to be sorely missed, so.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for birth. Thank you listeners.

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Speaker 3: Brian Ingpen