1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: You're with Cape Talk Lisspapatan on lunch. As we turn 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: to book club, it's a huge pleasure to welcome back 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: to studio today local author Penny Hall to talk about 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: her latest book called The Woman and Her Stars. Now, 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: those of you who've read Penny's previous works such as 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: The Invincible Miscust and The Woman at the Wheel, you 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: will know she has a knack for finding these formidable 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: women who often hover on the sidelines of history to 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: some degree because by virtue of their gender, they were 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: condemned to being a footnote in the stories of great 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: men and their achievements. But once again, with this new book, 12 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Penny has unearthed a woman who is worthy of being 13 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: remembered and recognized for her own achievements. And what's a 14 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: little different this time around is it is a woman 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: who was recognized even in her own time as being 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: highly unusual. That woman is Caroline Herschel. And yes, that 17 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: name is going to be familiar to you if you 18 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: live in Cape Town, and we'll explain I think the 19 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: significance I hope we get a chance to during this interview. 20 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: Her name would once have been overshadowed by the name 21 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: of her famous brother, William Herschel, who was the King's 22 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: astronomer to the court of King George the Third, but 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: as Penny reveals in this book, his sister was instrumental 24 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: in his acquiring that prominence. She is a woman whose 25 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: own astronomical talents were highly regarded in their own right, 26 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: and quite unusually for that time, even formally recognized. And 27 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: once again Penny has done incredibly deep, meticulous research to 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: bring Caroline's story to life. And it's lovely to have 29 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: a chance to chat to you about it, Penny. Welcome 30 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: to studio. 31 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: Thanks Papa, it's lovely to be here. 32 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: Thanks. What makes before we talk about this woman, just 33 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: let's talk about the sort of the greater plan here. 34 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: You keep circling back to these unsung female stories. Is 35 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: it because you feel a sense of outrage that these 36 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: women weren't recognized as they should have been. 37 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: Of course, part of it is definitely that. But I 38 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: came across the genre actually by mistake. I was planning 39 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: to write contemporary fiction and I wanted to write about 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: a woman protagonist who was a veteriny surgeon. Yes, And 41 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: I started to research when women first became vetany surgeons, 42 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: And that's how I came across Aleen Cust And when 43 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 2: I read about Alien Cust and the extraordinary lengths she 44 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: had to go to to become the Britain and Islands 45 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: first certified veterinary surgeon, I was suddenly taken down this 46 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 2: rabbit hole of what obstacles women have overcome in various 47 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: fields to achieve their dreams. And that was really how 48 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: it came about. So it was partially partially, you know, 49 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 2: evolving while I was researching this thing, realizing just how 50 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: overshadowed women have been and how little we know about 51 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: women's history. And as you alluded to earlier, is that 52 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: women are often footnotes to men if they're if they're 53 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: somehow related to men. For example, I wrote about Bertha Bens, 54 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: who was Carl Benz's wife, Mary Leaky, who was Louis 55 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: Leaky's wife, and now Caroline Herschel, who was William Herschel's sister. 56 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: If their husbands hadn't existed, it's possible we wouldn't have 57 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: known their stories. And uh and and and I realized this, 58 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: and I It's opened a whole new world to me. 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: And and I'm very mindful of the fact that I 60 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: only know very few women who have done amazing things, 61 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: and I'd like to bring them to light. 62 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: Well, you've done it again in this book at the 63 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: most fascinating story of a woman who's stargazing was was 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: land No, landmark is not the right word with skymarking, 65 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: if I can put it that way. Were you interested 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: in astronomy at all before you you discovered this car 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: that this woman existed. 68 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: Not really, I had an amateur interest in it, but 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: I came about Can I tell you how I found 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: a Caroline Herschel While I was writing the So, the 71 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: second of my biographical historical fiction novels about Bertha Ben. 72 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: While I was researching it, I wondered whether Bertha knew 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: any women or had heard of any women who might 74 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: have been something like role models to her, And my 75 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: research brought me to Caroline Herschel. And Caroline Herschel lived 76 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: almost one hundred years before birth events, so she was 77 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: in the seventeen hundreds. Birth events was in eighteen hundreds. However, 78 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: by that stage, Caroline Herschel had been recognized, she'd received 79 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: some medals, and she'd been one of only two women 80 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: who had been accepted into the Royal Astronomical society. So 81 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: it was quite possible that Bertha Bends knew about Caroline. 82 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: So I thought perhaps she heard about her, and coincidentally, 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: they were both German, and I thought, well, perhaps she'd 84 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: heard about her. And she thought, well, if Caroline could 85 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: step out of the shadows of men, why can't I. 86 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: So I brought Caroline into my into my novel about 87 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: birth events that one's called The Woman at the Wheel. 88 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: And in that book, Birth actually talks about Caroline Herschel 89 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: to her friend Eva. They're discussing girl's education and she 90 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: mentions Caroline Herschel. And so that was in that book 91 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: and my editor at the time flagged it and said 92 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: to me, what about a book on Caroline Herschel. And 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 2: that was when I decided to dig a little bit deeper, 94 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: and I found how much extraordinary history went into into 95 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: Caroline's story and what an interesting, complicated person she was. 96 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's introduce her to the audience. As I mentioned, 97 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, the sister and assistant to her famous brother, 98 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: William Herschel. But as you've referenced, a woman who began 99 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: became recognized in her own right for her own astronomical 100 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: discoveries and in fact, the first known paid female astronomer 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: and the first paid female scientist of any kind that 102 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: we can find any trace of in certainly British history. 103 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: But that was quite an unlikely place for her to 104 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: end up, given who she was, where she came from, 105 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: and how her life almost ended up being directed, because 106 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, she grew up in Germany. She was 107 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: ill in childhood, had left her with physical stunting and scarring, 108 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: and she was for a time destined to a life 109 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: of absolute domestic drudgery as virtually the household servant. How 110 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: did she go from that position to working alongside her 111 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: brother as an astronomer. 112 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was absolutely the household servant. She was the 113 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: second youngest of eight children in Hanover. Her father was 114 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: a member of the military band. He was also quite 115 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 2: interested in astronomy and early philosophical thinkings, but her brothers 116 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: were also musicians. And Caroline, as you said, was stunted 117 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: by tarphus. She was guarred by smallpox, and her mother 118 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: decided that no one would want to marry her, so 119 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: she was not worthy of an education. Yeah, and she 120 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: she was. Her mother said, well, you should be grateful 121 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: for having a roof over your head, essentially, and Caroline 122 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: was curious and interested. And unfortunately, her father died when 123 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: she was fairly young, and she had hoped at some 124 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: stage that he would fight for her, but he didn't, 125 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: and her mother and her oldest brother decided that she 126 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: would be a servant. Her brother, William, who was twelve 127 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: years older than her, escaped conscription from Hanover and went 128 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: to England, where he worked as a musician. And he 129 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: he was a genius in many fields, and for some 130 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 2: reason that is unknown, he came back to Hanover. At 131 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: some stage he came into the country, crept into the country. 132 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: Obviously he could have been arrested, but he wasn't. He 133 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: came into the country and he saw something in Caroline. 134 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: By that stage she was twenty two. He saw something 135 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: in her, and he negotiated with his mother and his 136 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: brother to take her back to England with him. By 137 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: that stage he was the musical director in Bath, which 138 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: was rather a prestigious position, and he said to them 139 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: that he thought that he could teach her to be 140 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: a soprano and which would make him useful, make her 141 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: useful to him. So they agreed, provided he paid the 142 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: cost of replacing her as a. 143 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: Servant, and he bought. 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: His own start, and they made him promise that the 145 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: moment she was not useful to him, he would send 146 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 2: her back. So yeah, so he he essentially rescued Caroline, 147 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: and that that that rescuing played on Caroline's mind for 148 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 2: for most of her life. In fact, she was so 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: beholden to William, who took her to bath, gave her 150 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: an education. He taught her maths, he taught her music, 151 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: he took he got her English lessons. She learned how 152 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: to sing. She became a very successful soprano, singing only 153 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: for William, though because she was so beholden to him, 154 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: she couldn't see herself outside of his light. And when 155 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: William it was a stage when astronomy was becoming an 156 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: interesting thing, and William's head was turned by astronomy. Initially, 157 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: Caroline was very disturbed by it because she'd finally felt 158 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: that she'd found a place for herself in music. And 159 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: when William discovered the planet Uranus, it was initially called 160 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: Georgian Sidius, the star of George, and he was made 161 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: King's Astronomer to King George the third. He gave up 162 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: music and he went to study astronomy full time, which 163 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: was very disruptive for Caroline, but that was where her 164 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: journey as an astronomer began. 165 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: So he trains her up as his assistant to take notes, 166 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: to make, you know, to keep records of what he 167 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: is looking at. And you have these extraordinary scenes in 168 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: the book of him standing at the top of the 169 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: sort of the platform woman which the telescope is mounted, 170 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: calling down to his sister sitting on the ground below, 171 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: you know, at this degree and in the freezing in 172 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: the middle of the night. He portrayed it so brilliantly 173 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: in this book, Penny. You can picture her shivering on 174 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: the ground taking notes with these cold fingers. But of 175 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: course gradually her own knowledge grows, her own ability to 176 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: see for herself grows. He gives her her own small telescope. 177 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: Let's do a quick sidebar on telescopes, because that, I 178 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: mean he was not just looking at the stars. He 179 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: was also developing the tools to enable that to happen. 180 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: And that was how they made their money. Initially, it 181 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: wasn't it. She was was making telescopes for other people. 182 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 2: His salary from King George was actually quite meager. I 183 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: mean it was it was rather a prestigious position, but 184 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 2: he didn't earn a hell of a lot of money, 185 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 2: and he and one of their other brothers, Alexander, had 186 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: started making telescopes because they realized the telescopes available when 187 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: William first began to develop an interest in astronomy, the 188 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: telescopes that available were not good enough, so he and 189 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 2: Alexander and Caroline were making telescopes in Bath in fact, 190 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: before they left to live closer to Windsor. And one 191 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: of Caroline's earliest tasks in astronomy was actually making molds 192 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: for the speculum for the metal alloy which they cast 193 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 2: the reflectors out of dried horse dung. So she had 194 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 2: to she had to make these molds, collect horse dung, 195 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: dry it and pound it in term job exactly she was. 196 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: She was rather disturbed by the fact that she would 197 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: sing soprano and in some of the fanciest rooms in 198 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: Bath at one night and the next morning be pounding 199 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: horse dung. But that was where it started. And yes, they, 200 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: in fact, a lot of the Herschel's telescopes are still 201 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 2: considered the early development of telescopes. Obviously, they're nothing like 202 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 2: what you'll see in Sutherland or anywhere else in the 203 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: world in terms of what we're using now. But those early, 204 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: those those those ambitions that William and Alex and Caroline 205 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: had were actually incredible. And the forty foot which they 206 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: were building when they were living near Slough near the 207 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: Windsor Castle, was considered one of the wonders of the 208 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: world at the time. Everyone is coming throughout throughout the 209 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: world to have a look at this amazing thing. 210 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in. Penny Hare is the author 211 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: with me in studio and we're talking about her latest 212 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: historical novel, The Woman and Her Stars. Like her previous books, 213 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: it is based on an actual historical figure, that of 214 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: Caroline Herschel, the first known professional female astronomer. And just 215 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: to emphasize again, it's the first record we have of 216 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: any woman being paid a salary for doing science. 217 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 218 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: You know that sounds like an absolutely astonishing thing to 219 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: say today in twenty twenty six, but this was the 220 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds Georgia and England. It was unheard of for 221 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: a woman to be even thought to have the brain 222 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: capacity to understand science, let alone to be as good 223 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: as it as she was. A couple of messages coming 224 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: in from audience members. Firstly Matthew, who is at your 225 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: book launch. She says, I've come back just to hear 226 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: the story again. Penny, you're amazing and you can't wait 227 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: to buy all your other books, he says. Nancy, thank you, 228 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: saying giving women their place among the stars. Thank you, Penny. 229 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: And from Karen, I so enjoyed miscusted. I'm looking forward 230 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 1: to reading the one about Caroline. Thank you for flagging 231 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: it well. I'm so glad that you are all responding 232 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: so positively. It is a remarkable story and I don't 233 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: want to give too much of it away to suffice 234 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: to say the book covers Caroline's scientific work and the 235 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: development of her own astronomical discoveries because she is on 236 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: recorders having found comets. And I won't say too much 237 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: more than that. As Penny referenced at the start of 238 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: the interview, she was recognized in her own time quite 239 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: unusually for having done so. But let's talk about what 240 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: isn't well. I mean, even her emotional world and her 241 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: inner world to some degree is available and was available 242 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: to you because you had access to diaries and letters 243 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: in your research work, which open and up. I mean, 244 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: as much as you have to extrapolate in writing this 245 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: as the work of fiction, you had a lot of 246 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: factual stuff to work with, didn't you. 247 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: I did? And but what what truly interested me? So 248 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: this kind of work, you know, it's not it's not 249 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: a bio biography that one starts from when they were 250 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: born and you go through it and kind of give 251 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: a give a laundry list of achievements and lived here 252 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: and what have you. So it's it's necessary to find 253 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: the story within the life, essentially, and and and the 254 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: idea of this kind of work, to my mind anyway, 255 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: is to really bring it a live and to to 256 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: focus on an individual so that you can relate to 257 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: them and you can understand that they were just another 258 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: being like we are. And when I was doing the 259 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: research and trying to find this story within the story, 260 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: I discovered that there was a huge gap in in 261 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: Caroline's life from the moment that they were They were 262 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: living in Slough, they had lived at several other places. 263 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: They were busy, very busy with the forty foot telescope, 264 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: with some deadline approaching. And the next thing, William, who 265 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: was almost fifty, fell in love and it unmord Caroline. 266 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: She had not imagined that she would have to share 267 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: her life, her house, her home with another woman. And 268 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 2: so's there's a section of her letters and her journaling 269 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: which disappears from the moment that we know about the 270 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: widow Mary Pitt, who is the woman that William fell 271 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: in love with and who married. We know that Caroline 272 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: was dreadfully unhappy, and we know that she left Observatory House, 273 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: which was where they lived together, and a house in 274 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: fact that she had been instrumental, instrumental in finding and 275 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: setting up and putting everything in place. She left there 276 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: and she was desperately unhappy and and filled with absolute 277 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: dread and and and hatred almost for for Mary. And 278 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: the next thing we skip ahead. All this information is 279 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: nowhere there and she and Mary are best friends. And 280 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: that for me was the story, and that was what 281 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: invited the fiction. From my side, I could imagine what happened, 282 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: what happened during that period that that not only reconciled 283 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: Caroline with the fact that William had a wife, but 284 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: also was the time where she actually realized her own genius. 285 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: So something happened during that time where she decided to 286 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: own her own, her own brilliance as a as an 287 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: astronomer and to become more independent. So that for me 288 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: was so fascinating, and that so that's the imagined part, 289 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: And you know, I can only imagine really what happened, 290 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: But I'm very grateful to Caroline for letting me imagine, 291 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: and I hope that if she were to read it, 292 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: she'd like the way I set it up. 293 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: Now before we were out of time, Penny, as I 294 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: said at the start, the name Herschel obviously a well 295 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: known one in Cape Town. We have a school named 296 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: after Herschel, we have roads named after Herschel's, and it 297 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: is a direct connection to Caroline Herschel. 298 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 2: Yes, John and Mary Herschel had a son called Sorry William, 299 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 2: and William and Mary Herschel had a son called John, 300 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: and John Herschel became an astronomer as well, and in 301 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: eighteen thirty four he came to Cape Town to chart 302 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: the southern scars, and he brought with him. By that 303 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: stage his father was deceased, but he brought with him 304 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: a telescope very much like the twenty footer which his 305 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: father had done so much work with, and set it 306 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: up on a farm very near to where Primary, Grovers 307 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: Growth Primary, so just behind Cavendish, that's where they lived. 308 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: They set up the telescope there and he actually charted 309 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 2: the Sudden Scars. So it was Caroline's nephew, and Caroline 310 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 2: was old by that stage, but she she worked with 311 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: him remotely and so in a way she was his 312 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: consultant in a sense. They were very close. And so 313 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 2: that's where the Herschel, where the Herschel comes from. And yeah, 314 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: the Herschel, the Herschel School is named for John Herschall. 315 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, it's just this book is such a 316 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: fascinating snapshot of a very complex, incredibly brilliant woman who 317 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: for so much of her life didn't or wasn't able 318 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: to see her own value. Because I mean, you've done 319 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: a wonderful job of painting that inner world of what 320 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: it must have felt like to have your whole life 321 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: be dependent on the grace and goodwill of a brother 322 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: who has plucked you from one life and into another, 323 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: and the sense of insecurity of could that be lost? 324 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: And what if I am sent home? And feeling beholden 325 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: is really the word that you've used so aptly. We're 326 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: getting lots of WhatsApps from listeners who've already read it 327 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: and loved it, and from several others who've read your 328 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: previous books and are so excited to hear there's a 329 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: new one, Penny, so congratulations on its publication. It's called 330 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: The Woman and Her Stars and it is being distributed 331 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 1: in South Africa by Penguin Random House. It's in all 332 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: the good stores now, it's on the shop. Yes, lovely 333 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: to have you with us to chat about it, and 334 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: thanks for introducing us to all of these extraordinary women. 335 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: I hope you carry on doing it. 336 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 2: Thank you, Papa, It's been such a pleasure. 337 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. Penny Hall, the author of The Woman and 338 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: Her Stars.