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Speaker 1: Feature seven two, World of Wedge Managers. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Why are you so stressed?

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Speaker 2: If you're a manager, I'd like you to give us

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Speaker 2: a call or send us a what's a Voice note

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Speaker 2: to share what your experience has been in recent time.

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Speaker 2: This morning on our World of Work feature, we're discussing

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Speaker 2: why managers are quietly checking out? And of course managers

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Speaker 2: are often described as the backbone of organizations. They are

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Speaker 2: now caught in a pressure squeeze, expected to deliver results

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Speaker 2: from the top while supporting teams from the bottom.

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Speaker 1: I was looking at this.

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Speaker 2: Gallop twenty twenty five State of the Global Workplace report

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Speaker 2: and it shows that managers are more stress, less supported,

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Speaker 2: and less engaged than ever before, with only a small

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Speaker 2: percentage truly thriving at work and even here at home

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Speaker 2: in South Africa, the pressure is even more intense because

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Speaker 2: we're dealing here with economic uncertainty and much like many

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Speaker 2: other countries, hybrid work demands and just the emotional realities

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Speaker 2: employees bring into the workplace. And what becomes the result

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Speaker 2: when you deal with things like that, Well, you've got

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Speaker 2: many managers that are not quitting loudly, they're just quietly

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Speaker 2: checking out. So this morning we're trying to unpack what's

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Speaker 2: really driving this disengagement. You know, the role that emotional

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Speaker 2: intelligent plays in leadership today and what organizations need to

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Speaker 2: do differently to support the people that are holding everything together.

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Speaker 2: And if you're a manager listening to us now, are

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Speaker 2: you relating with what this report has found? Do you

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Speaker 2: find that you are more stressed, you feel less supported,

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Speaker 2: and you're becoming less engaged, which then leads you to

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Speaker 2: quietly check out. Give me a call on oh one

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Speaker 2: one eight eight three h seven oh two? What's ups on?

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Speaker 2: Oh seven two seven two on seven or two.

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Speaker 1: Anya A.

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Speaker 2: Van Biek is a talent and culture strategist who is

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Speaker 2: going to guide us through this conversation. Anya, great to

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Speaker 2: chat to you, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Good morning, Clement.

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Speaker 3: How lovely to chat to you this morning. Such an

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Speaker 3: important topic.

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Speaker 2: Very very important. Hey, So let's start maybe with just

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Speaker 2: the fundamental things here. When we say managers are checking out,

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Speaker 2: what does this actually look like in the workplace?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So I think the choice of words we can

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Speaker 3: perhaps tweak when we think about managers and looking at

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Speaker 3: their responsibilities, and you've framed it so lovely to say

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Speaker 3: that they have pressure from the top, from the senior

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Speaker 3: executive teams, perhaps even the shareholders, to you know, make

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Speaker 3: sure that the strategy is implemented, and they have the

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Speaker 3: pressure from their teams demanding support from them. So and

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Speaker 3: often I see that these middle manager are not supported

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Speaker 3: at all. So it's almost as if we're burning out

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Speaker 3: the glue that's holding the teams together. We often hear

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Speaker 3: the saying that people join companies because of the employee brand,

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Speaker 3: perhaps because of the culture that I heard, perhaps even

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Speaker 3: some of the benefits that you gain. But people leave

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Speaker 3: their managers because that day to day interaction with your

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Speaker 3: manager is so important. So when we say managers are

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Speaker 3: quietly checking out, I think they have just so many

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Speaker 3: balls in the air and they struggle to remain resilient,

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Speaker 3: especially if there's no support for them, especially if they

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Speaker 3: have been appointed in a role without the necessary training.

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Speaker 2: This Gullab report that I mentioned shows low engagement among managers.

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Speaker 1: What's really driving this global trend?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think when we have a look at

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Speaker 3: the Global Workplace report, that is a scary statistic because

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Speaker 3: we have been talking about employee engagement over the last

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Speaker 3: couple of years and if you have a look at

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Speaker 3: the latest report, what we see is the employee scores

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Speaker 3: remain the same. Sometimes they call them individual contributors. So

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Speaker 3: you're responsible for no one except yourself. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: don't have people reporting into you. But what we see

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Speaker 3: is that the manager's scores has dropped I think with

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Speaker 3: about three basis points, which is a lot. Now your

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Speaker 3: question what's driving this? One thing that we pick up

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Speaker 3: in the report is and I'm now going to talk

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Speaker 3: specifically about sub Soharan Africa, is that we see questions

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Speaker 3: like what have you experienced loneliness at work? And we

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Speaker 3: can see that subs Horn Africa is very you know,

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Speaker 3: in the highest the top three. Have you experienced daily stress?

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Speaker 3: And we see that we're in the top top of

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Speaker 3: the global statistics. So what that indicates is if you

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Speaker 3: as a manager responsible for the people and the team

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Speaker 3: that you lead, and you're working with team that feel lonely,

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Speaker 3: they feel the daily stress, sometimes even say they feel

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Speaker 3: daily sadness, you might be working with more complexity than

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Speaker 3: just the transformation at the organization or the digitalization. Because

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Speaker 3: often what I see with the clients I'm working with,

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Speaker 3: our managers are confident when it gets to the operational

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Speaker 3: side of the business, but when it comes to the

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Speaker 3: human side, that's where they don't always feel as confident.

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Speaker 3: And now because of the I mean, we all talk

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Speaker 3: about the fast paced environment, we talk about the pressure

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Speaker 3: that we experience in the world of work. And if

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Speaker 3: that middle manager is then in a role where they

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Speaker 3: don't feel confident, where they don't get the necessary training

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Speaker 3: and perhaps even you know, they ask too or responsible

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Speaker 3: for things that might not be the best use of

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Speaker 3: their talents and their strength, that's when they become quietly

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Speaker 3: checking out, so that the pressure is so intense. And

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Speaker 3: I don't think it has anything to do with their willingness.

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Speaker 3: I think the people go out of their way to

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Speaker 3: you know, to do their best, but I think they

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Speaker 3: stretch thin. They're under resource. I mean last week I

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Speaker 3: had a conversation with a team where they highlighted there's

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Speaker 3: lack of resources, budgets are typed, there's a head countries,

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Speaker 3: we can't replace people when they resign, and I think

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Speaker 3: in the end those managers might feel emotionally drained.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, and oh it's actually quite scary and you're

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Speaker 2: hearing you just explain further the realities that a lot

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Speaker 2: of managers are facing. What becomes the implication then in

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Speaker 2: the workplace, when you've got managers that are experiencing loneliness

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Speaker 2: at work, daily setness, they're under resource, they're under extreme pressure,

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Speaker 2: and when they end up checking out, what becomes the consequences?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think the first consequence that is so important.

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Speaker 3: It's an immediate impact on how they lead and manage

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Speaker 3: their teams. And you can imagine if you feel so

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Speaker 3: friendly stretch or even under resource, that when you're in

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Speaker 3: a situation where you add odds with someone or where

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Speaker 3: you need to perhaps share a difficult conversation or start

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Speaker 3: a difficult conversation, you don't necessarily have the capacity to

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Speaker 3: do it in the best professional way. We all know

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Speaker 3: that sometimes we need to have candid conversations, but perhaps

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Speaker 3: then you so findly stretch that you do it in

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Speaker 3: the wrong way, and then it harms that relationship and

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Speaker 3: that has a spiral effect. So that's just on the

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Speaker 3: one side. On the other side, we all know that

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Speaker 3: if we're not checking, I sometimes call it our optimal functioning,

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Speaker 3: linking to our resilience. If we're not checking, where's that bar?

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Speaker 3: You might find it difficult to be innovative, to be creative,

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Speaker 3: and then where you need to lead. By example, people

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Speaker 3: are looking at a manager that that's not, you know,

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Speaker 3: acting in that way, not showing up as their best selves.

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Speaker 3: So they might also then sit back and say sure, okay,

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Speaker 3: but where to from here? So it really it's a

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Speaker 3: ripple effect when you have a look at managers being

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Speaker 3: stretched so thin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to take some calls and WhatsApps

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Speaker 2: as well from some of our listeners who up currently

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Speaker 2: in these positions that you're describing. Give us a call

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Speaker 2: on oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh two,

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Speaker 2: what's ups on oh seven two seven o two one

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Speaker 2: seven oh two and share your experiences with.

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Speaker 4: Two days of bold ideas, powerful conversations and proudly local

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Speaker 4: innovation the fourteenth by Local Summit and Expo Live on

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Speaker 4: seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: I've got a message here from is it Samu on

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Speaker 2: the WhatsApp line who says, Hi, Clement personally, I relate

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Speaker 2: to this quite quitting report. There exceptionally high section one

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Speaker 2: eight nine process in twenty twenty five, particularly in the

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Speaker 2: mining sector, has caused a ripple effect on stuff morale.

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Speaker 2: As a manager, I have found that one takes on

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Speaker 2: a larger load than humanly possible, and there's lack of

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Speaker 2: support from executive level people that bend out. We are

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Speaker 2: on medication and surviving through therapy five and twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: six have been a constant brain drain. And I mean

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Speaker 2: that's one example, Anya of a listener who says, I

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Speaker 2: know exactly what you're talking about. I'm in that situation.

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Speaker 2: What can managers do?

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Speaker 1: Anya?

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Speaker 2: Is there anything employers can do to provide some support

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Speaker 2: so that you're not sitting with middle managers who are

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Speaker 2: feeling drained, who are feeling underresourced, who are feeling overworked

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Speaker 2: longly daily sadness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that's the positive news because

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Speaker 3: if we listen to someone's example, he was talking about

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Speaker 3: organizational change. That example is section one eighty nine. Another

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Speaker 3: example of change can be if there's technology transformation. So

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Speaker 3: the first thing that I would advise any middle manager

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Speaker 3: to focus on is to understand the human side of

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Speaker 3: change and get an understanding of what is that transcision

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Speaker 3: curve look like and understanding that if they themselves or

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Speaker 3: their teams is going through a performance dip or even

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Speaker 3: an emotional dip. To understand that is normal. Having said that,

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Speaker 3: we need to take accountability for the depth and the

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Speaker 3: width of that performance dip and emotional depth. So that's

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Speaker 3: on the one side. And some other solutions that organizations

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Speaker 3: from their part but they can focus on, is really

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Speaker 3: to sit with middle managers and resink the role. So

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Speaker 3: often there's so many or so much responsibilities and tasks

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Speaker 3: and just have a look in a conversation with if

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Speaker 3: we want them to have room to lead and not

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Speaker 3: only react, Perhaps we need to rethink the role and

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Speaker 3: the responsibilities. And that might look different for each in

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Speaker 3: every organizationation and industry, but just start having that conversation,

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Speaker 3: not separately, involve them in the conversation to say, okay,

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Speaker 3: if we want to tweak your roles and responsibility, what

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Speaker 3: might be redundant or what can we realign. The second part,

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Speaker 3: and that's even listed in that Global State of the

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Speaker 3: Workplace report, is make sure that you train your managers.

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Speaker 3: What we often see in the environment is that the

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Speaker 3: best individual contributor, the best salesperson is now appointed as

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Speaker 3: the sales manager without squipping them with skills. And when

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Speaker 3: I talk about skills, I'm not only talking about technical skills.

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Speaker 3: I'm also looking at the human skills like emotional intelligence,

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Speaker 3: supporting them to adopt the coaching management style, and helping

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Speaker 3: them to lead hybrid y this one thing. To lead

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Speaker 3: a team that you see face to face every day,

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Speaker 3: it's a totally different ball game to lead them when

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Speaker 3: we're working from home. And then make sure that you

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Speaker 3: focus on their own and individual development need that is

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Speaker 3: not a generic training for each and everyone. So that's

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Speaker 3: two tips. I have three more, Clement, do you want

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Speaker 3: me to continue?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Please, We need as many tips as possible.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So the third tip would be is often or

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Speaker 3: not often? All most of the organizations that I work

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Speaker 3: with is currently busy with the technology transformation and the

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Speaker 3: tech is support is supposed to support us to make

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Speaker 3: our lives easier and often. And I'm not talking about

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Speaker 3: the implementation phase in that phase where you you know,

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Speaker 3: have the normal glitches. I'm talking as looking longer term,

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Speaker 3: does that technology really simplify the workload or does it

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Speaker 3: reduce the task that's not very valuable or I call

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Speaker 3: them low value task because what we want managers to

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Speaker 3: do is to focus on their highest pay off activity.

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Speaker 3: We want them to focus on those activities that we're

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Speaker 3: paying them to do and not over focusing on the

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Speaker 3: admin task. And listen to what Samu said. He said

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Speaker 3: that I have taken on so much more responsibility and

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Speaker 3: that's perhaps where technology can come into play. I also

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Speaker 3: think that we need to be very mindful and that's

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Speaker 3: something that we can easily implement any organization to create

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Speaker 3: manager specific support. So what do I mean by manager

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Speaker 3: specific support is we can create a community where peers

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Speaker 3: can support one another. It can be a body system.

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Speaker 3: You can call them a resilience buddy if that is

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Speaker 3: what you're focusing on, or whatever name you want to

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Speaker 3: give them, but make sure that they do feel supported

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Speaker 3: in some or other way. It might be that you

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Speaker 3: allocate men talk to them, but make sure that they

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Speaker 3: have availability to the resources. Perhaps it's coaching, either in

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Speaker 3: house or outside a professional coach to support them. And

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Speaker 3: that's the fourth step that I want to leave. Make

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Speaker 3: sure that you create support for the managers. And then

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Speaker 3: third the lastly, certainly I want to share or just

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Speaker 3: talk about if you think of the middle managers and

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Speaker 3: the people that they report to those line managers. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: it is the exco team at least senior leadership in

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Speaker 3: the organization needs to lead by example because when we

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Speaker 3: think of culture, when we think of how we behave,

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Speaker 3: how we do things, it really how the senior leaders

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Speaker 3: what they do is so important. So if you're a

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Speaker 3: senior leader and you are sending emails throughout the weekend

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Speaker 3: at midnight, funny hours, managers might feel pressured to do

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Speaker 3: exactly the same. And we all know that we can't

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Speaker 3: operate when it's always on environment. We do need times

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Speaker 3: to rest and recover, and that's where the senior leaders

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Speaker 3: need to lead by example. And I think it sounds

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Speaker 3: very simple, but having conversations to normalize rest and recovery,

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Speaker 3: to normalize things like we don't expect you to communicate

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Speaker 3: after hours, or even if you receive an email, you

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Speaker 3: don't need to respond. We want you to spend quality

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Speaker 3: time with a family, or at least for you to

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Speaker 3: spend time on your hobbies or whatever extramurial activities you're doing.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's really sometimes simple, easy steps that

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Speaker 3: can be implemented to support our modal managers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, just got to somewats some voice notes

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Speaker 2: on oh seven two seven or two two.

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Speaker 5: Hey Clement, good morning, great show, are you story for

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Speaker 5: a company, a multinational company for about fourteen years. And

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Speaker 5: then in the process, you know, they kept on changing

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Speaker 5: people for what they called, you know, operational optimization. But

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Speaker 5: as they cut down people, the positions that are left

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Speaker 5: the you know, they sort of like load you on

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Speaker 5: with the work of the people that have left. Over time,

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Speaker 5: there's no support. You expect it to perform. The workload

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Speaker 5: goes up, but you know, nobody cares. So you go

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Speaker 5: in you talk about the same being stress. They expect

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Speaker 5: you to you know, manage it and take time off

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Speaker 5: and everything else. But there's no time off. There's nothing.

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Speaker 5: So that's exactly what got me to check out and

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Speaker 5: I decided to leave and after fourteen years, and yeah,

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Speaker 5: that is a reason that this happens. So I don't

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Speaker 5: think sometimes people are not you know, equipped enough. You

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Speaker 5: get equipped, but the workload becomes so much. If you

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Speaker 5: can get a fifty kg in, somebody puts one the

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Speaker 5: kirogram on your body, your body cannot take it. And

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Speaker 5: that's the reason that it happens sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, yeah, sure, thank you so much for sharing

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Speaker 2: that experience with us.

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Speaker 1: Anya.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine that's probably something that a lot of

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Speaker 2: other people out there experiencing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think what is so important, But that

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Speaker 3: Lessoner mentioned is he did not feel cared for. So

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Speaker 3: looking at the supporting and training side, they definitely were developed,

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Speaker 3: but as he said, the workload was so high, and

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Speaker 3: I think that is where we need to have conversations

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Speaker 3: about how do you build resilience, not as individuals but

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Speaker 3: as teams. What rituals can be put in place. But

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Speaker 3: I think for me, when I was listening to him,

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Speaker 3: the part that stood out is support me, let me

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Speaker 3: make let me make, let me feel you care for

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Speaker 3: me as a individual, because, as he said, with those

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Speaker 3: workloads without the support you humanly, it's just impossible. Well,

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Speaker 3: we're not cox in a machine. We need support as

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Speaker 3: human and I think that's unfortunately sometimes the corporate reality

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Speaker 3: where people just don't feel care for. And I don't

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Speaker 3: think that is always the reality. But then I want

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Speaker 3: the business leaders out there to say, but how do

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Speaker 3: you show support? How do you show care and how

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Speaker 3: do you create that space where people can thrive?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what's your advice then for the managers listening

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Speaker 2: to us now in that find themselves in these very

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Speaker 2: issues we've been discussing, how do do they raise it

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Speaker 2: with with management.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you you actually hit the nail

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Speaker 3: on the head now, Clement, because the first step would

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Speaker 3: be to speak up so often, especially if they have

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Speaker 3: raised it once before, people become silent and they just

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Speaker 3: don't talk about this anymore. But I want them to

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Speaker 3: take ownership and to focus on what's that small step

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Speaker 3: that they can do to move closer to a environment

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Speaker 3: where they and their teams can thrive. And the starting

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Speaker 3: point is to highlight what might be missing. And I

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Speaker 3: think what is so important when you have that conversation

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Speaker 3: is to remember you don't beat around the bush, don't sugarcoat,

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Speaker 3: be very candid, but do it in such a way

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Speaker 3: that you are respectful as well, because if the if

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Speaker 3: the senior leaders and the executives don't feel respected, or

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Speaker 3: they might even feel that you don't have the same goals,

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Speaker 3: they will just use their power and shut you down,

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Speaker 3: and that's not what we want. So definitely speak up,

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Speaker 3: but remember to be candid and respectful. And in the end,

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Speaker 3: if they don't organize a body, find someone that you

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Speaker 3: can vent with because sometimes just having that space to

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Speaker 3: talk about it is helping as well. So that's my

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Speaker 3: tips for the managers. You're not alone. You can do this,

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Speaker 3: but don't be silent. Speak up and request what you

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Speaker 3: think will support the environment to be thriving.

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Speaker 2: Well anyap, thank you so much on your phon Bierk

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Speaker 2: for just taking us through what managers can do, because

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Speaker 2: my goodness, it looks like they're facing quite a lot.

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Speaker 2: On your phon Biek is a talent and culture strategist