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Speaker 1: Rebecca Davis writing in Daily Maverick Today that Ceva Guahube

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Speaker 1: is trying to clean up the DBE. She tells us

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Speaker 1: that she's trying to clean up the dB and Rebecca

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Speaker 1: good afternoon. She might not be getting the help you

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Speaker 1: would expect from senior people within her department.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess it depends what you'd expect on I

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Speaker 2: don't think anything about the story is terribly surprising. And

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Speaker 2: the story in brief is that it is claimed that

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Speaker 2: the Basic Education Minister, who of course is a DA

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Speaker 2: minister in the Government of National Unity, is being sort

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Speaker 2: of serially undermined and sabotaged by some of her own

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Speaker 2: key top officials in ways that include them being summoned

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Speaker 2: to meetings at the NC Study Group, which is the

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Speaker 2: parliamentary group which monitors the Basic Education Committee, and these

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Speaker 2: top of fish are allegedly sharing internal department info with

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Speaker 2: this study Group, which can then be used against Quadubat

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Speaker 2: in the Basic Education Portfolio Committee. And there is some

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Speaker 2: reason to believe that this is indeed true, because Quadubert

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Speaker 2: and the Portfolio Committee have indeed clashed in sort of

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Speaker 2: skirmishes largely driven by ANC MPs and the committee of

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Speaker 2: chair is also an ANC MP. And the reason like,

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Speaker 2: it's not that surprising, John, because I think Jarubert was

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Speaker 2: always going to be a bit of a lightning rod.

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Speaker 2: She was always going to be viewed as potentially the

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Speaker 2: biggest political threat in the GNU because she is somebody

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Speaker 2: who does seem to be making some inroads when it

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Speaker 2: comes to basic education, and I think that is very

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Speaker 2: plausibly a threat. She also commands, of course, the department

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest budgets in South Africa, so there

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Speaker 2: are no day out some officials who are not all

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Speaker 2: that keen on attempts to clean up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when the ANC government came in, they understandably were

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Speaker 1: suspicious and sometimes those suspicions were really well founded that

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Speaker 1: a part eight bureaucrats who remained behind would try to

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Speaker 1: frustrate what they were trying to do. But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's naive me who have expected something different that when

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Speaker 1: it comes to a government of national unity, when the

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Speaker 1: country is in the crisis in so many areas in

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Speaker 1: which it is in crisis, that everybody would be shouldered

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Speaker 1: to the wheeld in the same direction. Clearly naive.

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Speaker 2: I think it is naive. I mean it should be

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Speaker 2: said that it is unacceptable for public service officials to

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Speaker 2: be giving individualized briefings to any political party, be it

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Speaker 2: the ANC or the DA ahead of parliamentary meetings. Either

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Speaker 2: they must brief or of them simultaneously or none. And

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Speaker 2: the fact that they are apparently giving the special treatment

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Speaker 2: to the NC allegedly because these officials are ANC aligned,

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Speaker 2: is deeply troubling and it is something that you know

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Speaker 2: should be taken seriously and looked into, because what I hear,

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Speaker 2: John is that this is basically endemic throughout the GNU,

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Speaker 2: for ministers to be undermined like this, for officials to

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Speaker 2: be leaking against them to portfolio committees, to the media,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And you can't help but feel to these

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Speaker 2: non A and C ministers in the GNU, because, as

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Speaker 2: you say, it's very hard to imagine how you succeed

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Speaker 2: with rigorous cleanup methods if your own top people are

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Speaker 2: actively working against you.

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Speaker 1: Does it appear from what you've been able to find out, Rebecca,

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Speaker 1: that this is exclusive to DA ministers or ministers from

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Speaker 1: other smaller parties in the JUNIU as well.

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Speaker 2: Well. I believe that down to how Holomisa has also

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Speaker 2: raised concerns about the briefing of A and C officials

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Speaker 2: in this manner by department officials. He is, of course

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Speaker 2: the current Deputy Minister of Defense and Military Veterans, so

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Speaker 2: there's some reason to believe it's not the A specific

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Speaker 2: and it should be noted, of course, John, that the

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Speaker 2: main reason why this kind of campaign against Quarube, if accurate,

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Speaker 2: appears to be picking up speed is of course because

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Speaker 2: of her announcement that she will be bringing in the

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Speaker 2: Special Investigating Unit to carry out lifestyle audits on all

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Speaker 2: the department's top officials. And these audits, John, are apparently

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Speaker 2: really sorough. I mean, if you have something to fear

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Speaker 2: from a financial perspective, you can be pretty sure they're

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Speaker 2: going to pick it up. It apparently involves three years

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Speaker 2: worth of bank records at least, and so it's understandable

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Speaker 2: that if you're up to no good, you will be

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Speaker 2: quaking in your boots a bit. And from what we've

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Speaker 2: been able to detect, there has been this real spike

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Speaker 2: in an online smear campaign against Tarube since the SIU

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Speaker 2: audits were announced, which is highly suspicious obviously.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, one one says that if you've got

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Speaker 1: nothing to hide, then open up your books. You know.

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Speaker 1: It seems as simple as that. Perhaps there are ethical

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Speaker 1: issues to be debated about privacy and what you have

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Speaker 1: a right to keep private and whatnot. But I think

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Speaker 1: if you're working in the state, working for the state,

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Speaker 1: and you're working for the state in a department like

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Speaker 1: Basic Education, which has such a huge budget and such

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Speaker 1: a critically important mandate, then to me, if you fight

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Speaker 1: a lifestyle audit, I'm going to be suspicious, very suspicious,

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Speaker 1: I would agree.

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Speaker 2: And it should also be noted that it's not the

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Speaker 2: entire of you know, dbe who's been audited. It is

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Speaker 2: in particular officials in roles who might be exposed to

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Speaker 2: you know, corrupt influences. And that is to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: functions like human resources for instance, and supply chain management,

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Speaker 2: which obviously is responsible for all the contracts and tenders.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense, it does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So how does one stop this? I mean, how

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Speaker 1: does one stop the general trend of ANC officials briefing

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Speaker 1: ANC parliamentarians to undermine ministers or deputy ministers from opposition,

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Speaker 1: not opposition but non A and C parties in the

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Speaker 1: Government of National Unity.

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Speaker 2: Well, someone needs to have a stern word. One would hope,

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Speaker 2: in an ideal world that it would be President Suramaposa,

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Speaker 2: who might, you know, quite strictly tell off the NC

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Speaker 2: Parliamentary Caucus, tell them stop trying to get officials to

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Speaker 2: come and brief you in this manner. It is totally

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Speaker 2: out of line with the official government policy, which is

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Speaker 2: the deep politicization of the public service. It's in writing,

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Speaker 2: it's in the government gazette. So they're going against the

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Speaker 2: policies of the of their own government. And you know,

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Speaker 2: in an ideal world, I suppose he would be the

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Speaker 2: one you'd have to call into.

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Speaker 1: Account recordavs of the Daily Maverick, thank you very very much. Indeed,