WEBVTT - Consumer Talk: Beware using AI to fight your consumer battles 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:06.440 Lunch with Pipper Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola. 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:09.640 Right, we're going to move away from the music and 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.360 into the world of consumer talk. Wendy Nona with us 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:14.720 in studio this afternoon, and we're going to be talking 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.280 about artificial intelligence and how it's being misused by some 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.520 consumers in their effort to lodge service complaints. We will 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.040 also make space for some open line calls later in 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:26.960 the show, So if you want to ask a question 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.360 or flag an issue you've encountered the number to dial 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.640 two one four four six five sixty seven, or you 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.559 can send a voice note to seven two five six 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.680 seven one five six seven. Wendy, it's been weeks since 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.840 you and I are the studio together, so welcome back. 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:42.639 Good to be here. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.280 PIPA now Chat, GPT and groch and the like look 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.000 can be really useful in helping to prepare presentations, and 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.640 I use them to create social media posts. They're helpful 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.920 to find background info, but we also know it's super 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.640 super important to check and double check all the information 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.160 they but out because they have been known to hallucinate 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.280 to make up information when they can't find what they're 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.280 asked to look for and sometimes they just get the 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.720 fact plane wrong or they miss out on important nuances. 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.160 So it really pays to be cautious with them, and 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:19.199 to never ever just trust blindly what the AI spat 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.600 out at you. It's a lesson. A few lawyers have 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.160 learned that along the way. I'm sure many listeners will 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.559 be familiar with the story of the judge who picked 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.240 up that the attorney in court was quoting completely made 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.040 up case law in his courtroom, and when he challenged 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:35.360 him on it, the response was, well, I think it 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.080 was the intern did it. But the intern had asked CHATGBT, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.160 and chat GBT had made up case law to support 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.120 their argument. They wanted it to support Wendy. I never 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.360 imagined that we would be having a conversation about this 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:47.800 happening in the consumer space. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.560 No, nor did I actually, although I can see it 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:57.040 in my own inbox, so clearly you can tell by 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.760 the tone and the fact that everything's perfectly written, that 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.520 sort of flowery tone, you can tell that somebody has 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:10.160 definitely prompted some AI platform to do it for them. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.279 In fact, recently, a couple of weeks ago, a complaint 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:19.840 actually attached his whole conversation with Chatchept in his email 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.799 to me asking for help. So I saw the whole thread. 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:28.160 And he starts by telling Chatchept what he wants to 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.160 convey to one of those awful travel clubs. 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.799 That's chancel. They'll never let you. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.800 Go a club. Yes, And he's prompting it to say, 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.880 I want you to turn this into a professionally structured 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.880 and strongly worded email. And then so we get all 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.000 his little refinements along the way, no, do this, add that, whatever, 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.480 and then he says, and now please summarize this email 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.359 because I want to send it to Wendy Noha love 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.880 it so so yeah, and then it's like, no, short, 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.680 I was going to say, I hope chatch Ebt began 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:04.280 with your royal consumer highness. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:06.679 Yeah, not exactly. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.400 But so then I start having my own conversation my 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:11.520 one of choices GROC. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:12.840 I said, how. 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:18.799 Many users ask you it to rewrite something that that 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.160 GROC has produced in response to a prompt, but ask 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.160 it to redo it in their personal style, so it's 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.919 not so obvious, right, So the answer was maybe ten 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:31.960 to fifteen percent of users explicitly asked for us. And 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.360 then we went down this rabbit hole, which thoroughly fascinated 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.320 me because I kept prompting. And the thing about about 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.800 these AI engines is that the quality of your prompt 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:46.360 determines the quality. 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:48.880 So so Groc goes on. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.520 Some folks lean on AAR to churn out content they 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.760 pass off as their own, missing the NW ones of authenticity. 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.520 So I said, so ironic, because we're talking globally about 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.600 it's that it's the age of author to city, be 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.600 your authentic self, use your own accent, you know, speak 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.400 your own voice, whatever. But everyone's now using chatchibt or 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:12.280 whatever the AR choice is, which is a complete contrasection. Yes, 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:15.600 so Grox says, it's like they want the polish without 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.000 the soul. The world craves genuine voices, but the temptation 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.599 to outsource to AI for a quick fix is strong, 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.919 especially when people prioritize speed or perfection over originality. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.719 Balancing ars help with personal flares. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.560 The trick. I'm still quoting GROC use it as a tool, 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.000 not a ghost writer. So so I responded, is with 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.760 this the problem, as I see it, is that people 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.400 genuinely express themselves so badly in terms of language, punctuation, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.280 et cetera, with no attention to detail or care. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.599 And the AR models are not equipped to be that bad. So, 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:50.360 no matter how. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:55.480 Much they propped groc or chatchybt to come across as 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.080 their authentic celves, the AI lacks. 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.440 The ability to stoop that low. 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:01.200 And I've got to I got a ha ha ha 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.680 from Grock. People want their voice, but they don't realize 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.599 their voice includes flaws which AI isn't wired to copy. 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:09.640 Isn't that interesting? 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.080 Most people's natural communication as a glorious mess, said Grock. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.400 Typos run ons zero chill on grammar. It's very American. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.120 AAR like me, says Grock, is built to be coherent, 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.000 So even when someone asks me to sound like them, 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.760 I struggle to replicate that raw, unpolished chaos. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:30.560 I can't dial down. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.600 The formality or sprinkle in some slang. But mimicking authentic 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:39.359 human sloppiness, that's a tall order. My circuits lean towards clarity, 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.039 not catastrophe. It's like asking a chef to burn the 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.240 toast just right, I know, I mean, I was properly 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.799 down the rabbit hole by this stage. Another gem from Grock. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.120 AI is like a karaoke machine. It can carry a tune, 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.560 but it's not going to nail your drunk friends off 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.000 key warbling at two am. People lean on tools like 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.040 me to sound sleck, but the world is craving the raw, 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.200 unfiltered you warts. 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:04.720 Typers and all. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:06.919 I would say as somebody who receives a lot of email, 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.320 maybe not all those oughts, but something. I mean, these 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:16.320 these these emails I'm getting that are so clearly AAR generated. Actually, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.080 I can't believe I'm saying this make me long in 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:23.159 some ways for the sloppy. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.240 The raw, unpolished chaos. 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.000 Exactly, the raw, unpolished chaos. 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.240 As to the raw, unpolished chaos. Okay, so I mean 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.240 really really interesting and the fact that Rock itself generated 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.400 all of those sayings and phrases jam is really fascinating. 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.560 But when there's a reason beyond me curiosity for us 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:40.520 picking up on this today. 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.360 This was all sparked by Gail Schimmel, CEO of the 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.800 Advertising Regulatory Board, who reached out to me last week saying, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.880 can we please talk about why using chat GBT to 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.720 argue with decision making bodies like the ARB is a 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.520 really bad idea? Doing my head and she said, and 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.039 of course I immediately went back and said, absolutely. 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:02.680 So Gail is with us on the line, and it's 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.599 welcome back to the show, Gail. Lovely to have you 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.960 with us again on Cave Talk here again, except I'm 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.520 not welving the quality of the phone lines. So I'm 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:14.560 going to put Gail back to my producer and ask 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.600 her just to try and recall I think, and see 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.120 if we can establish a clearer line or if needs 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.240 be moved to zoom to pick up on that conversation, 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.440 because that initial phrases enough to tell me that the 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.120 current line is not going to do the trick. We 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.080 will ask Gail to give us a little bit of 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.800 insight and reminder into the ARB and what it does 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.360 before we talk about this issue of why chat GPT 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.640 is becoming a problem for them. Are we trying again 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.880 on the existing line? Gail, Sorry about that, but if 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.400 a rude welcome, welcome. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.960 Back to Cape Talk, can you hear me properly? 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.040 Now it's a. 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:48.920 Little bit better, So let's see how we go and 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.440 we'll hope for the best, Gail. Before we talk about 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.239 the chat GPT issue, it's possible that there are people 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.320 listening this afternoon. Who haven't heard our previous conversations about 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.280 the ARB and what you do? Can you just bully 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.640 start by reminding our listeners what role you play and 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.280 how our customers should go about approaching you if they 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:07.960 want to complain about an advert. 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.400 So very briefly, the ARB, the Advertising Regulatory Board, is 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.360 the body that you complain to about the content of 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.880 advertising in South Africa. We non governmental, We are self 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.720 regulatory body, but we have a body of rules called 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.880 the Code of Advertising Practice and we apply those rules 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.360 and through our membership structures and through various other stake 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.480 holder structures, we are able to get most advertising withdrawn 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.640 if it is against that code. So normally the way 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:39.960 that consumers complain is that there is a form on 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.520 our website that they're preg in and then they all 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.559 sound profitbly more relevant to this conversation, can email to 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:51.880 complaints at ARB dot org DOTZA. But the form on 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.200 the website is the first common way people complain. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:55.760 Okay, thanks for that, Wendy. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:57.520 Okay, thank you, Gail. 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:02.160 So how is the use of AI complaints affecting the 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.960 Board's complaints handling process? 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:05.920 What's do your head in? 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.239 So there are so many aspects of this that's comfortable. 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.679 You're not going to be able to get to. Let 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.360 me just stop speaking, because this is really become a thing. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.200 And we first are now realized we first noticed it 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.520 without realizing we were noticing it. So the first examples 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.320 I can probably find this, we were like, this is weird. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.719 This consumer seems to have researched what we do so carefully, 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.040 but they've quoted the English code or the Canadian code, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:38.480 and that's really weird. So we'll get these well structured, 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.880 as you were saying, more coherent complaints. And at first 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.280 it seems like that's not a bad thing. To make 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.360 people slightly more coherent is not a bad thing, but 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.360 chagipt will be quoting the wrong the wrong code, or 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.440 it will have got hold of the wrong end of 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.920 the stick, or in some way be different. So that's 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.120 was the first thing that we that we note. Then 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.320 we started noticing that all of us were experiencing in 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.360 about the last six months, we've all been commenting people 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.120 have become so rude and we couldn't quite get a 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.200 grasp on it. We used to root people. You know, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.520 it's normal to our work that every now and then 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.080 you hit someone who's really angry that we haven't agreed 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.200 with their view on the advertising, and they write a 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.960 really stinking email, and that's part of our work. But 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.360 it was happening really often, and they'd be the same 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:35.240 tone to this email. And eventually, after we received an appeal, 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.640 very quickly, we sent out a decision, and within about 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.440 fifteen minutes we had a long appeal to that decision, 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:46.240 and we suddenly realized all of these problems are because 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:49.240 of AI. And we played with it a little bit, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.280 and we experimented with putting in prompts, and that prompt 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.280 that you read that you had seen your consumer put 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.680 in using the words strongly worded. The moment you tell 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.880 AI to become strongly worded, it becomes quite rude. 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.440 Yes, I was going to start, Yeah, that was going 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:09.520 to be my question to. 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:14.440 You, is because AI is by default sugary and polite, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:20.680 so the complainants must be prompting it to be rude, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.720 and that's clearly what's happening strongly worded or whatever else. 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.959 Is there anything else that you've that you've figured out 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.600 in playing around any other wording that that prompts AI 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:37.680 to be rude. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.320 Or there goes the line again. Sorry, Gail, I'm putting 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.040 you back to Maxina. We'll just try and get that clarity. 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.560 It's very interesting that, Wendy. I'm just going to jump 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.800 in while we sought out that line to the point 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.760 of rudeness. As Gel's right, he said, it's it's part 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.840 and parcel of anybody on a public platform. We receive 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.679 it on our WhatsApp line. You know, we saw it yesterday. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.480 I had somebody message the wrong message us with a 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.600 query that was intended for use. I politely, in between ads, 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.600 wrote a quick thing saying, hey, you've reached the wrong outlet. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.560 This is the email address for the news response. And 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.680 the person's reply was to her an abuse and swear 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.720 at Maxine and I because we hadn't resolved her issue 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:16.079 immediately on the spot, even though we weren't the ones 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.720 who could. That kind of thing is part and parcel 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.800 of the job. It does happen regularly. The degrees of 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.439 rudeness vary, and you know, you just got to learn 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.200 a pate job brush it off. I have a statue 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.080 of a rhino on my desk for this very reason. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.000 In the early days, I took all of that personally, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.560 I've in ten years plus learned to go, you know what, 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.080 this isn't actually about me. Just focus and let's just 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.400 carry on and forget. Forget that we saw that. What's happened. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.360 It's up to her to use the email address I 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.679 center or not. But it does happen. It's part and parcel. 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.200 But I hear what Gail's saying about the degree to 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.240 which it's happening, and the I don't know what the 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.520 word is that I'm looking for the sort of sense 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.080 of freedom to use that kind of language and to entitlement. Yeah, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.640 the sort of the entitlement is actually a very good, good, 0:12:58.760 --> 0:12:59.840 good phrase to use here. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:00.360 Girls. 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.040 You said specifically the last six months you've seen this happening, 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:08.040 which does sort of compute with my take of AI 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:09.600 by the general public as well. 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:13.800 Are you asking me about this? 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.760 Yes, sorry, we've got you back again now, yeah. 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:17.760 Yes, you do have me back. 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:18.600 So. 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.000 I don't know if it is a sign of a 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.720 general uptake of using AI, but just you know, I 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.520 get the feeling more and more ordinary people are using 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.480 AI for ordinary tasks and the other thing, and I 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.240 think you might have touched on it for the b 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:39.080 I culture as I rejoined is it sounds so coherent 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.120 and clever, So people lose track of the fact that 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.880 it's rude. They lose track of the fact that they're 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.800 speaking very blunkly because the arguments sounds so clever to them. 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.240 And then this is the other problem that we're having. 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.560 What will happen is we'll make a decision or we 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.360 will tell the person that we're not investigating, and we 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.240 will have a very good reason. For example, we had 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.839 a father this week where we are not investigating because 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.160 the AD is no longer being used. Now we all 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.680 we do is we pull ads, So if the AD 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.280 is no longer being used, there's no point in us investigating. 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.000 So we explain this very nicely, because we always are 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.800 careful to be nice to the complainant. And we get 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.280 a letter back, so we explain it again, and we 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.360 get a more angry letter back, and people feel like 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.720 they have a lawyer at their fingertips. But the difference 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.600 is a real life lawyer will tell you when you're wrong, 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.120 but I will never tell you when you're wrong. So 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.560 we get these angry and angry letters and then they 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.000 start they threaten us. I've got a it's got a 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.240 very specific format it likes to use. It likes to 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.760 set out its case. Then it likes to make a 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.680 list of the things that expects from you, and then 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.440 it likes to threaten you in the last line. And 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.520 so we're getting these bizarre threats. We will report you 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.960 to parliament. I will report you to bodies. Bodies was 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.240 one of my favorite one, will caught you to bodies? 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.840 You know what, Gail, I think I got that case? 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.080 Was it about a prominent retailer and an uprising promotion? 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.240 The one you refuse to take that you said, they've 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.000 already changed it, so we're not doing it. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.680 Yes, it's landed up in my in box. 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.240 And did you also receive the AI version of the email? 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:22.080 I need to go and look at it again. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:22.360 Now. 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.440 It's so funny, I mean, I mean, Gail, obviously, it's 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.920 it's it's it's it's it's frustrating, and it's sometimes hurtful 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.840 to the person on the receiving end of what is 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.240 just intolerably rude, you know, and and unwarranted rudeness for 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.200 somebody who is just trying to do their job within 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.920 the boundaries of what that job allows them, and is 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.680 meant to encourage them to do you speaking out about 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:46.920 it quite forcefully, and you've asked us to engage with 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.640 you today. Are you hoping to just sort of said 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.680 to people, hey, think a little bit before you sent 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.520 or would you like to see more substantial behavior change 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:54.760 than that? 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.200 You know? I think that that what I would ask people. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.960 First of all, we are in our jobs because we 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.720 like to help people, So we want to hear what 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.080 really upset the person about the AD. We don't want 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:12.200 to hear AI's interpretation of what upsets you about the AD. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.400 We imagine that investigate the wrong thing because you're using 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.040 AI and it has it has said something in a 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.760 very fancy way, but you have not realized it's not 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.480 actually telling us what you had a problem with. So 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.720 that's the first thing. I die people to remember that 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.880 we're interested in their problem with the AD, not Ar's 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.960 problem with the AD. And it may be that they're 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:45.160 unstructured what did you call it? Chaotic chaos? Yes, but 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.960 it may be that that is more valid. And then 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.880 AI's opinion of what should have upset them, So there's that. 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.160 The second thing is we are human beings, and if 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.600 you tell us a game and again that we're incompetent. 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:02.680 AI lives the word incompetent, old, repeated reincompetence, and that 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.080 we don't understand the law. And most of us are 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:10.800 highly qualified lawyers. So when you get packed with this 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.480 the whole time, you do become less willing to go 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.240 the extra mile for that complainant. You know, we still 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.000 do our jobs, but you're just becoming Whereas maybe we 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.280 would have gone back to your complainant who had told 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:24.600 us genuinely what they mean and why are they upset, 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.040 and you would have advised them what they can do next. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.280 With that complainant to sharking and shouting and shouting at us, 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.120 maybe we're not going to bend over backwards to help 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:34.560 them find an alternate solution. 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.640 It's so sad because it's actually it's not them. It's 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.120 a getting it wrong and being rude, and they don't 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.679 have the kind of time or energy or sus to 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:46.720 see what's happening. 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:47.160 In their name. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.400 In their name, they're putting their name to it. They're 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.920 not saying as provided by CHATCHPT. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:57.600 And I think one of the big things is that 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.240 it sounds very clever, and you know, if you're not 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.800 a person used to writing letters or used to leave 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.000 the leaves or things like that. And AI writes this 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.719 letter for you, and you think it sounds magnificent, and 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.919 so you use it because you think it's making you 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.600 sound clever. But in factful recipients like us, who receives 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.320 a lot of these letters, we go, oh, it's the 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:24.280 AI again. You're not funding clever. You're making us tired 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.960 to be very blunt. And because we respond to humans, 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.320 we don't use AI to respond to people. We respond 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.199 as humans, so we take the time to give you 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.760 a fortful human response. So I think that's the thing. 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.200 I would like to call on people to trust themselves 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.919 to communicate their own feelings and to trust themselves to 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.920 understand what is written back to them. And if they think, oh, 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.159 I sense have come to the end of it, don't 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.080 ask Ai. AI will tell you you've got a solution, 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.520 because AR likes to please you. If you understand why 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:02.640 we've closed so far, men allow the far to be closed. 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.760 Geez, wow, that is actually so powerful what you've just 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.639 said there, Gail, Really it really is. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.080 Gail. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon, 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.160 and I wish for you this Heritage Day and beyond 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.560 is that there will be fewer of the rude emails 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.119 coming your way on more of those appreciating the fact 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.240 that professionals of your caliber are willing to do this 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.199 work and act on behalf of consumers. You are greatly 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.200 appreciated by our team, and I hope that that represents 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.960 the majority opinion out there. But thank you for taking 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.000 the time to join us on your public holiday to 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.960 flag this issue. I'll be fascinated to hear listener's response 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.200 to what Gail has said and also your own experiences 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.720 in your sphere of influence or place of work. Are 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.920 you also aware of people using AI thoughtlessly? 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:51.000 What Heritage Day is alive? Bond k talk honoring the people, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:52.359 the artist. 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.920 And the moments that will find our city and our country. 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.240 We're back with Wendy Nola and happy to move into 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.520 some open line calls as well, but also happy to 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.320 carry on talking about this issue of AI and its misuse, 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.800 because I really do think generally this constitute's a misuse, Wendy, people, 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.200 as you say, not being mindful of putting their name 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.919 to something AI has generated without a checking the facts 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.719 therein and b checking the tone, thinking about what it 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.959 is that you are saying, how it will be received 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.119 on the other end, and what kinds of rudeness and what. 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:27.400 Possible consequences are. 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.200 You can't just outsource blindly and then have blind trust 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.400 that it's all going to be okay. And funnily enough, 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.639 I was engaging with Naratia Massetti, who is the National 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.719 Financial or Women's Schemes lead on board for Banking and Credit, 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:45.760 about an unrelated matter earlier sometime last week. So Gail 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.720 had already mentioned this chatchipy te problem with me, saying 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.320 it doesn't work for regulators. So I asked Narotia if 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.000