Speaker 1: Lunch with Pipper Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola.
Speaker 2: Right, we're going to move away from the music and
Speaker 2: into the world of consumer talk. Wendy Nona with us
Speaker 2: in studio this afternoon, and we're going to be talking
Speaker 2: about artificial intelligence and how it's being misused by some
Speaker 2: consumers in their effort to lodge service complaints. We will
Speaker 2: also make space for some open line calls later in
Speaker 2: the show, So if you want to ask a question
Speaker 2: or flag an issue you've encountered the number to dial
Speaker 2: two one four four six five sixty seven, or you
Speaker 2: can send a voice note to seven two five six
Speaker 2: seven one five six seven. Wendy, it's been weeks since
Speaker 2: you and I are the studio together, so welcome back.
Speaker 1: Good to be here.
Speaker 2: PIPA now Chat, GPT and groch and the like look
Speaker 2: can be really useful in helping to prepare presentations, and
Speaker 2: I use them to create social media posts. They're helpful
Speaker 2: to find background info, but we also know it's super
Speaker 2: super important to check and double check all the information
Speaker 2: they but out because they have been known to hallucinate
Speaker 2: to make up information when they can't find what they're
Speaker 2: asked to look for and sometimes they just get the
Speaker 2: fact plane wrong or they miss out on important nuances.
Speaker 2: So it really pays to be cautious with them, and
Speaker 2: to never ever just trust blindly what the AI spat
Speaker 2: out at you. It's a lesson. A few lawyers have
Speaker 2: learned that along the way. I'm sure many listeners will
Speaker 2: be familiar with the story of the judge who picked
Speaker 2: up that the attorney in court was quoting completely made
Speaker 2: up case law in his courtroom, and when he challenged
Speaker 2: him on it, the response was, well, I think it
Speaker 2: was the intern did it. But the intern had asked CHATGBT,
Speaker 2: and chat GBT had made up case law to support
Speaker 2: their argument. They wanted it to support Wendy. I never
Speaker 2: imagined that we would be having a conversation about this
Speaker 2: happening in the consumer space.
Speaker 3: No, nor did I actually, although I can see it
Speaker 3: in my own inbox, so clearly you can tell by
Speaker 3: the tone and the fact that everything's perfectly written, that
Speaker 3: sort of flowery tone, you can tell that somebody has
Speaker 3: definitely prompted some AI platform to do it for them.
Speaker 3: In fact, recently, a couple of weeks ago, a complaint
Speaker 3: actually attached his whole conversation with Chatchept in his email
Speaker 3: to me asking for help. So I saw the whole thread.
Speaker 3: And he starts by telling Chatchept what he wants to
Speaker 3: convey to one of those awful travel clubs.
Speaker 1: That's chancel. They'll never let you.
Speaker 3: Go a club. Yes, And he's prompting it to say,
Speaker 3: I want you to turn this into a professionally structured
Speaker 3: and strongly worded email. And then so we get all
Speaker 3: his little refinements along the way, no, do this, add that, whatever,
Speaker 3: and then he says, and now please summarize this email
Speaker 3: because I want to send it to Wendy Noha love
Speaker 3: it so so yeah, and then it's like, no, short,
Speaker 3: I was going to say, I hope chatch Ebt began
Speaker 3: with your royal consumer highness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not exactly.
Speaker 3: But so then I start having my own conversation my
Speaker 3: one of choices GROC.
Speaker 1: I said, how.
Speaker 3: Many users ask you it to rewrite something that that
Speaker 3: GROC has produced in response to a prompt, but ask
Speaker 3: it to redo it in their personal style, so it's
Speaker 3: not so obvious, right, So the answer was maybe ten
Speaker 3: to fifteen percent of users explicitly asked for us. And
Speaker 3: then we went down this rabbit hole, which thoroughly fascinated
Speaker 3: me because I kept prompting. And the thing about about
Speaker 3: these AI engines is that the quality of your prompt
Speaker 3: determines the quality.
Speaker 1: So so Groc goes on.
Speaker 3: Some folks lean on AAR to churn out content they
Speaker 3: pass off as their own, missing the NW ones of authenticity.
Speaker 3: So I said, so ironic, because we're talking globally about
Speaker 3: it's that it's the age of author to city, be
Speaker 3: your authentic self, use your own accent, you know, speak
Speaker 3: your own voice, whatever. But everyone's now using chatchibt or
Speaker 3: whatever the AR choice is, which is a complete contrasection. Yes,
Speaker 3: so Grox says, it's like they want the polish without
Speaker 3: the soul. The world craves genuine voices, but the temptation
Speaker 3: to outsource to AI for a quick fix is strong,
Speaker 3: especially when people prioritize speed or perfection over originality.
Speaker 1: Balancing ars help with personal flares.
Speaker 3: The trick. I'm still quoting GROC use it as a tool,
Speaker 3: not a ghost writer. So so I responded, is with
Speaker 3: this the problem, as I see it, is that people
Speaker 3: genuinely express themselves so badly in terms of language, punctuation,
Speaker 3: et cetera, with no attention to detail or care.
Speaker 1: And the AR models are not equipped to be that bad. So,
Speaker 1: no matter how.
Speaker 3: Much they propped groc or chatchybt to come across as
Speaker 3: their authentic celves, the AI lacks.
Speaker 1: The ability to stoop that low.
Speaker 3: And I've got to I got a ha ha ha
Speaker 3: from Grock. People want their voice, but they don't realize
Speaker 3: their voice includes flaws which AI isn't wired to copy.
Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 3: Most people's natural communication as a glorious mess, said Grock.
Speaker 1: Typos run ons zero chill on grammar. It's very American.
Speaker 3: AAR like me, says Grock, is built to be coherent,
Speaker 3: So even when someone asks me to sound like them,
Speaker 3: I struggle to replicate that raw, unpolished chaos.
Speaker 1: I can't dial down.
Speaker 3: The formality or sprinkle in some slang. But mimicking authentic
Speaker 3: human sloppiness, that's a tall order. My circuits lean towards clarity,
Speaker 3: not catastrophe. It's like asking a chef to burn the
Speaker 3: toast just right, I know, I mean, I was properly
Speaker 3: down the rabbit hole by this stage. Another gem from Grock.
Speaker 3: AI is like a karaoke machine. It can carry a tune,
Speaker 3: but it's not going to nail your drunk friends off
Speaker 3: key warbling at two am. People lean on tools like
Speaker 3: me to sound sleck, but the world is craving the raw,
Speaker 3: unfiltered you warts.
Speaker 1: Typers and all.
Speaker 3: I would say as somebody who receives a lot of email,
Speaker 3: maybe not all those oughts, but something. I mean, these
Speaker 3: these these emails I'm getting that are so clearly AAR generated. Actually,
Speaker 3: I can't believe I'm saying this make me long in
Speaker 3: some ways for the sloppy.
Speaker 2: The raw, unpolished chaos.
Speaker 1: Exactly, the raw, unpolished chaos.
Speaker 2: As to the raw, unpolished chaos. Okay, so I mean
Speaker 2: really really interesting and the fact that Rock itself generated
Speaker 2: all of those sayings and phrases jam is really fascinating.
Speaker 2: But when there's a reason beyond me curiosity for us
Speaker 2: picking up on this today.
Speaker 3: This was all sparked by Gail Schimmel, CEO of the
Speaker 3: Advertising Regulatory Board, who reached out to me last week saying,
Speaker 3: can we please talk about why using chat GBT to
Speaker 3: argue with decision making bodies like the ARB is a
Speaker 3: really bad idea? Doing my head and she said, and
Speaker 3: of course I immediately went back and said, absolutely.
Speaker 2: So Gail is with us on the line, and it's
Speaker 2: welcome back to the show, Gail. Lovely to have you
Speaker 2: with us again on Cave Talk here again, except I'm
Speaker 2: not welving the quality of the phone lines. So I'm
Speaker 2: going to put Gail back to my producer and ask
Speaker 2: her just to try and recall I think, and see
Speaker 2: if we can establish a clearer line or if needs
Speaker 2: be moved to zoom to pick up on that conversation,
Speaker 2: because that initial phrases enough to tell me that the
Speaker 2: current line is not going to do the trick. We
Speaker 2: will ask Gail to give us a little bit of
Speaker 2: insight and reminder into the ARB and what it does
Speaker 2: before we talk about this issue of why chat GPT
Speaker 2: is becoming a problem for them. Are we trying again
Speaker 2: on the existing line? Gail, Sorry about that, but if
Speaker 2: a rude welcome, welcome.
Speaker 4: Back to Cape Talk, can you hear me properly?
Speaker 5: Now it's a.
Speaker 2: Little bit better, So let's see how we go and
Speaker 2: we'll hope for the best, Gail. Before we talk about
Speaker 2: the chat GPT issue, it's possible that there are people
Speaker 2: listening this afternoon. Who haven't heard our previous conversations about
Speaker 2: the ARB and what you do? Can you just bully
Speaker 2: start by reminding our listeners what role you play and
Speaker 2: how our customers should go about approaching you if they
Speaker 2: want to complain about an advert.
Speaker 4: So very briefly, the ARB, the Advertising Regulatory Board, is
Speaker 4: the body that you complain to about the content of
Speaker 4: advertising in South Africa. We non governmental, We are self
Speaker 4: regulatory body, but we have a body of rules called
Speaker 4: the Code of Advertising Practice and we apply those rules
Speaker 4: and through our membership structures and through various other stake
Speaker 4: holder structures, we are able to get most advertising withdrawn
Speaker 4: if it is against that code. So normally the way
Speaker 4: that consumers complain is that there is a form on
Speaker 4: our website that they're preg in and then they all
Speaker 4: sound profitbly more relevant to this conversation, can email to
Speaker 4: complaints at ARB dot org DOTZA. But the form on
Speaker 4: the website is the first common way people complain.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for that, Wendy.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, Gail.
Speaker 3: So how is the use of AI complaints affecting the
Speaker 3: Board's complaints handling process?
Speaker 1: What's do your head in?
Speaker 4: So there are so many aspects of this that's comfortable.
Speaker 4: You're not going to be able to get to. Let
Speaker 4: me just stop speaking, because this is really become a thing.
Speaker 4: And we first are now realized we first noticed it
Speaker 4: without realizing we were noticing it. So the first examples
Speaker 4: I can probably find this, we were like, this is weird.
Speaker 4: This consumer seems to have researched what we do so carefully,
Speaker 4: but they've quoted the English code or the Canadian code,
Speaker 4: and that's really weird. So we'll get these well structured,
Speaker 4: as you were saying, more coherent complaints. And at first
Speaker 4: it seems like that's not a bad thing. To make
Speaker 4: people slightly more coherent is not a bad thing, but
Speaker 4: chagipt will be quoting the wrong the wrong code, or
Speaker 4: it will have got hold of the wrong end of
Speaker 4: the stick, or in some way be different. So that's
Speaker 4: was the first thing that we that we note. Then
Speaker 4: we started noticing that all of us were experiencing in
Speaker 4: about the last six months, we've all been commenting people
Speaker 4: have become so rude and we couldn't quite get a
Speaker 4: grasp on it. We used to root people. You know,
Speaker 4: it's normal to our work that every now and then
Speaker 4: you hit someone who's really angry that we haven't agreed
Speaker 4: with their view on the advertising, and they write a
Speaker 4: really stinking email, and that's part of our work. But
Speaker 4: it was happening really often, and they'd be the same
Speaker 4: tone to this email. And eventually, after we received an appeal,
Speaker 4: very quickly, we sent out a decision, and within about
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes we had a long appeal to that decision,
Speaker 4: and we suddenly realized all of these problems are because
Speaker 4: of AI. And we played with it a little bit,
Speaker 4: and we experimented with putting in prompts, and that prompt
Speaker 4: that you read that you had seen your consumer put
Speaker 4: in using the words strongly worded. The moment you tell
Speaker 4: AI to become strongly worded, it becomes quite rude.
Speaker 1: Yes, I was going to start, Yeah, that was going
Speaker 1: to be my question to.
Speaker 3: You, is because AI is by default sugary and polite,
Speaker 3: so the complainants must be prompting it to be rude,
Speaker 3: and that's clearly what's happening strongly worded or whatever else.
Speaker 3: Is there anything else that you've that you've figured out
Speaker 3: in playing around any other wording that that prompts AI
Speaker 3: to be rude.
Speaker 2: Or there goes the line again. Sorry, Gail, I'm putting
Speaker 2: you back to Maxina. We'll just try and get that clarity.
Speaker 2: It's very interesting that, Wendy. I'm just going to jump
Speaker 2: in while we sought out that line to the point
Speaker 2: of rudeness. As Gel's right, he said, it's it's part
Speaker 2: and parcel of anybody on a public platform. We receive
Speaker 2: it on our WhatsApp line. You know, we saw it yesterday.
Speaker 2: I had somebody message the wrong message us with a
Speaker 2: query that was intended for use. I politely, in between ads,
Speaker 2: wrote a quick thing saying, hey, you've reached the wrong outlet.
Speaker 2: This is the email address for the news response. And
Speaker 2: the person's reply was to her an abuse and swear
Speaker 2: at Maxine and I because we hadn't resolved her issue
Speaker 2: immediately on the spot, even though we weren't the ones
Speaker 2: who could. That kind of thing is part and parcel
Speaker 2: of the job. It does happen regularly. The degrees of
Speaker 2: rudeness vary, and you know, you just got to learn
Speaker 2: a pate job brush it off. I have a statue
Speaker 2: of a rhino on my desk for this very reason.
Speaker 2: In the early days, I took all of that personally,
Speaker 2: I've in ten years plus learned to go, you know what,
Speaker 2: this isn't actually about me. Just focus and let's just
Speaker 2: carry on and forget. Forget that we saw that. What's happened.
Speaker 2: It's up to her to use the email address I
Speaker 2: center or not. But it does happen. It's part and parcel.
Speaker 2: But I hear what Gail's saying about the degree to
Speaker 2: which it's happening, and the I don't know what the
Speaker 2: word is that I'm looking for the sort of sense
Speaker 2: of freedom to use that kind of language and to entitlement. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the sort of the entitlement is actually a very good, good,
Speaker 2: good phrase to use here.
Speaker 1: Girls.
Speaker 2: You said specifically the last six months you've seen this happening,
Speaker 2: which does sort of compute with my take of AI
Speaker 2: by the general public as well.
Speaker 4: Are you asking me about this?
Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, we've got you back again now, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yes, you do have me back.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 4: I don't know if it is a sign of a
Speaker 4: general uptake of using AI, but just you know, I
Speaker 4: get the feeling more and more ordinary people are using
Speaker 4: AI for ordinary tasks and the other thing, and I
Speaker 4: think you might have touched on it for the b
Speaker 4: I culture as I rejoined is it sounds so coherent
Speaker 4: and clever, So people lose track of the fact that
Speaker 4: it's rude. They lose track of the fact that they're
Speaker 4: speaking very blunkly because the arguments sounds so clever to them.
Speaker 4: And then this is the other problem that we're having.
Speaker 4: What will happen is we'll make a decision or we
Speaker 4: will tell the person that we're not investigating, and we
Speaker 4: will have a very good reason. For example, we had
Speaker 4: a father this week where we are not investigating because
Speaker 4: the AD is no longer being used. Now we all
Speaker 4: we do is we pull ads, So if the AD
Speaker 4: is no longer being used, there's no point in us investigating.
Speaker 4: So we explain this very nicely, because we always are
Speaker 4: careful to be nice to the complainant. And we get
Speaker 4: a letter back, so we explain it again, and we
Speaker 4: get a more angry letter back, and people feel like
Speaker 4: they have a lawyer at their fingertips. But the difference
Speaker 4: is a real life lawyer will tell you when you're wrong,
Speaker 4: but I will never tell you when you're wrong. So
Speaker 4: we get these angry and angry letters and then they
Speaker 4: start they threaten us. I've got a it's got a
Speaker 4: very specific format it likes to use. It likes to
Speaker 4: set out its case. Then it likes to make a
Speaker 4: list of the things that expects from you, and then
Speaker 4: it likes to threaten you in the last line. And
Speaker 4: so we're getting these bizarre threats. We will report you
Speaker 4: to parliament. I will report you to bodies. Bodies was
Speaker 4: one of my favorite one, will caught you to bodies?
Speaker 3: You know what, Gail, I think I got that case?
Speaker 3: Was it about a prominent retailer and an uprising promotion?
Speaker 3: The one you refuse to take that you said, they've
Speaker 3: already changed it, so we're not doing it.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's landed up in my in box.
Speaker 2: And did you also receive the AI version of the email?
Speaker 1: I need to go and look at it again.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: It's so funny, I mean, I mean, Gail, obviously, it's
Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's it's frustrating, and it's sometimes hurtful
Speaker 2: to the person on the receiving end of what is
Speaker 2: just intolerably rude, you know, and and unwarranted rudeness for
Speaker 2: somebody who is just trying to do their job within
Speaker 2: the boundaries of what that job allows them, and is
Speaker 2: meant to encourage them to do you speaking out about
Speaker 2: it quite forcefully, and you've asked us to engage with
Speaker 2: you today. Are you hoping to just sort of said
Speaker 2: to people, hey, think a little bit before you sent
Speaker 2: or would you like to see more substantial behavior change
Speaker 2: than that?
Speaker 4: You know? I think that that what I would ask people.
Speaker 4: First of all, we are in our jobs because we
Speaker 4: like to help people, So we want to hear what
Speaker 4: really upset the person about the AD. We don't want
Speaker 4: to hear AI's interpretation of what upsets you about the AD.
Speaker 4: We imagine that investigate the wrong thing because you're using
Speaker 4: AI and it has it has said something in a
Speaker 4: very fancy way, but you have not realized it's not
Speaker 4: actually telling us what you had a problem with. So
Speaker 4: that's the first thing. I die people to remember that
Speaker 4: we're interested in their problem with the AD, not Ar's
Speaker 4: problem with the AD. And it may be that they're
Speaker 4: unstructured what did you call it? Chaotic chaos? Yes, but
Speaker 4: it may be that that is more valid. And then
Speaker 4: AI's opinion of what should have upset them, So there's that.
Speaker 4: The second thing is we are human beings, and if
Speaker 4: you tell us a game and again that we're incompetent.
Speaker 4: AI lives the word incompetent, old, repeated reincompetence, and that
Speaker 4: we don't understand the law. And most of us are
Speaker 4: highly qualified lawyers. So when you get packed with this
Speaker 4: the whole time, you do become less willing to go
Speaker 4: the extra mile for that complainant. You know, we still
Speaker 4: do our jobs, but you're just becoming Whereas maybe we
Speaker 4: would have gone back to your complainant who had told
Speaker 4: us genuinely what they mean and why are they upset,
Speaker 4: and you would have advised them what they can do next.
Speaker 4: With that complainant to sharking and shouting and shouting at us,
Speaker 4: maybe we're not going to bend over backwards to help
Speaker 4: them find an alternate solution.
Speaker 3: It's so sad because it's actually it's not them. It's
Speaker 3: a getting it wrong and being rude, and they don't
Speaker 3: have the kind of time or energy or sus to
Speaker 3: see what's happening.
Speaker 6: In their name.
Speaker 3: In their name, they're putting their name to it. They're
Speaker 3: not saying as provided by CHATCHPT.
Speaker 4: And I think one of the big things is that
Speaker 4: it sounds very clever, and you know, if you're not
Speaker 4: a person used to writing letters or used to leave
Speaker 4: the leaves or things like that. And AI writes this
Speaker 4: letter for you, and you think it sounds magnificent, and
Speaker 4: so you use it because you think it's making you
Speaker 4: sound clever. But in factful recipients like us, who receives
Speaker 4: a lot of these letters, we go, oh, it's the
Speaker 4: AI again. You're not funding clever. You're making us tired
Speaker 4: to be very blunt. And because we respond to humans,
Speaker 4: we don't use AI to respond to people. We respond
Speaker 4: as humans, so we take the time to give you
Speaker 4: a fortful human response. So I think that's the thing.
Speaker 4: I would like to call on people to trust themselves
Speaker 4: to communicate their own feelings and to trust themselves to
Speaker 4: understand what is written back to them. And if they think, oh,
Speaker 4: I sense have come to the end of it, don't
Speaker 4: ask Ai. AI will tell you you've got a solution,
Speaker 4: because AR likes to please you. If you understand why
Speaker 4: we've closed so far, men allow the far to be closed.
Speaker 3: Geez, wow, that is actually so powerful what you've just
Speaker 3: said there, Gail, Really it really is.
Speaker 2: Gail. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon,
Speaker 2: and I wish for you this Heritage Day and beyond
Speaker 2: is that there will be fewer of the rude emails
Speaker 2: coming your way on more of those appreciating the fact
Speaker 2: that professionals of your caliber are willing to do this
Speaker 2: work and act on behalf of consumers. You are greatly
Speaker 2: appreciated by our team, and I hope that that represents
Speaker 2: the majority opinion out there. But thank you for taking
Speaker 2: the time to join us on your public holiday to
Speaker 2: flag this issue. I'll be fascinated to hear listener's response
Speaker 2: to what Gail has said and also your own experiences
Speaker 2: in your sphere of influence or place of work. Are
Speaker 2: you also aware of people using AI thoughtlessly?
Speaker 1: What Heritage Day is alive? Bond k talk honoring the people,
Speaker 1: the artist.
Speaker 2: And the moments that will find our city and our country.
Speaker 2: We're back with Wendy Nola and happy to move into
Speaker 2: some open line calls as well, but also happy to
Speaker 2: carry on talking about this issue of AI and its misuse,
Speaker 2: because I really do think generally this constitute's a misuse, Wendy, people,
Speaker 2: as you say, not being mindful of putting their name
Speaker 2: to something AI has generated without a checking the facts
Speaker 2: therein and b checking the tone, thinking about what it
Speaker 2: is that you are saying, how it will be received
Speaker 2: on the other end, and what kinds of rudeness and what.
Speaker 1: Possible consequences are.
Speaker 3: You can't just outsource blindly and then have blind trust
Speaker 3: that it's all going to be okay. And funnily enough,
Speaker 3: I was engaging with Naratia Massetti, who is the National
Speaker 3: Financial or Women's Schemes lead on board for Banking and Credit,
Speaker 3: about an unrelated matter earlier sometime last week. So Gail
Speaker 3: had already mentioned this chatchipy te problem with me, saying
Speaker 3: it doesn't work for regulators. So I asked Narotia if
Speaker 3: she was seeing anything similar, and she came back straight
Speaker 3: away to say.
Speaker 1: Yes, we are, we can immediate.
Speaker 3: Please see that chatchipt wrote the response and often they
Speaker 3: sat completely irrelevant case law interesting. So it's happening all around,
Speaker 3: and I must say I use it, but I use
Speaker 3: it very advisedly, and especially with legal you have to check,
Speaker 3: because luckily I do check because it came up with something.
Speaker 1: It doesn't pick up No. Number one.
Speaker 3: I mean you should know that you must ask it
Speaker 3: for it to be South African laws. Yes, so that's
Speaker 3: a really rookie thing to be quoting something American or Canadian, Australian.
Speaker 1: Or whatever the case i'd be. But they're not good
Speaker 1: with amendments. And also I.
Speaker 3: Was doing a story about how many people got their
Speaker 3: driver's licenses instead of a code eight, we used to
Speaker 3: call it a normal passenger car, but in a truck
Speaker 3: license code ten because you don't do all the tricky
Speaker 3: you know, parking, maneuvers, parallel parking and all that which
Speaker 3: some people find hard. And there was an amendment about
Speaker 3: ten years ago to say that if you got your
Speaker 3: your if you got a truck driving license, you couldn't
Speaker 3: then drive an all passenger car. You had to get
Speaker 3: a separate license. And that came up in my research right.
Speaker 3: And also because when you go on Google, it prompts
Speaker 3: the AI thing first of all. Right, So so I
Speaker 3: thought that's interesting. How come I don't know about it?
Speaker 3: And I started asking questions, and I went right up
Speaker 3: to the top authorities.
Speaker 2: It was. It was off the table at the.
Speaker 3: Day it was supposed to be signed into law. There
Speaker 3: was an about turn completely, but you don't see that.
Speaker 3: You don't see that.
Speaker 1: It only finds the original one.
Speaker 3: Now, imagine what egg I would have had on.
Speaker 2: My face if you had put that in your article.
Speaker 3: Yes, so you have to check everything, even these references
Speaker 3: that Groc came up with where lawyers were found to
Speaker 3: be found to be quoting the wrong case law and whatever,
Speaker 3: or you know, outsource it completely.
Speaker 1: I checked it.
Speaker 3: I went on to Reuters, I went onto you know,
Speaker 3: traditional media sites to check. Okay, yes that did happen,
Speaker 3: and just tweak it a bit and add the year
Speaker 3: and whatever.
Speaker 1: You've quite use it with caution, and you know.
Speaker 2: What is coming up. As you've rightly pointed out, Google
Speaker 2: is optimizing the AI results at the top of the
Speaker 2: Paget's be mindful of that that the first thing that
Speaker 2: is showing you is a BAI answer. It really pays
Speaker 2: to scroll down and verify and double check and look
Speaker 2: for a second source to verify in the material further
Speaker 2: down the page. Alice summing it up very well, she says,
Speaker 2: it's so important to remember that all of these large
Speaker 2: language models mentioned don't generate content in the sense of creating.
Speaker 2: They fall back on an algorithm which directs them to
Speaker 2: the information they've been trained on, which then mixes and
Speaker 2: matches different content before spitting out the answer, as your
Speaker 2: interviewee stated, it has a specific structure for arguing because
Speaker 2: that is the way it has been trained to do so,
Speaker 2: not because it thinks like that. It's basically a massive
Speaker 2: copy and pasting machine, as Alice's comment.
Speaker 3: And another thing for Continuous to be aware of is
Speaker 3: that unless you prompt it otherwise, is going to give
Speaker 3: you an American model. And for example, pain and sufering
Speaker 3: damages big huge payouts of very big in the American.
Speaker 1: Legal system, not so much here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're going to start with a skewed perspective.
Speaker 2: And yeah, Joane just saying thank you for exposing yet
Speaker 2: another problem with the use of AI. It is going
Speaker 2: to produce a population of people who cannot think for themselves,
Speaker 2: is her fear. I just want to say, as an example,
Speaker 2: I mean, really, when we say it's easy to spot,
Speaker 2: it's so easy to spot. And I'm going to give
Speaker 2: you an example. We have just had a whole wave
Speaker 2: of lovely young Grade eleven job shadow students joining us.
Speaker 2: And after I had finished the week we had with
Speaker 2: them and really enjoyed engaging with them, We really enjoyed
Speaker 2: having them with us, and they had their list of
Speaker 2: questions at the end of the interview, to ask us
Speaker 2: at the end of the two days, to ask us
Speaker 2: about working in this profession, et cetera. And a couple
Speaker 2: of days later I happened to have my young grade
Speaker 2: eleven nephew staying with me, and Sue said, Tunny, can
Speaker 2: I interview you? I need an extra case study for
Speaker 2: my job? Shutters?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, let's do this, and he started asking questions and
Speaker 2: am I hang on a second. This is awfully familiar.
Speaker 2: And he was very good about it because he was
Speaker 2: going off script and following up and really listening to
Speaker 2: the answers I was giving him. So he circled away
Speaker 2: and circled back again. But at the end of the interview,
Speaker 2: I said to mister you know, can I just have
Speaker 2: a look at the list of questions you were working off?
Speaker 2: And he said no, I didn't really stick to them, like,
Speaker 2: which is the right thing to do. But there's true
Speaker 2: as Bob, and it was clearly they had all gone
Speaker 2: into the same system and said, I need to generate
Speaker 2: a lisk of sensible questions to ask during an interview
Speaker 2: about a job. Shadow and AI had generated the self
Speaker 2: same list in the same order. And you know, as
Speaker 2: I said, the students in particular who were with us
Speaker 2: and my nephew, all credit to them. They didn't just
Speaker 2: blindly go through the list and write down the answers
Speaker 2: and spew that out. They all listened and followed up
Speaker 2: and engaged and made it their own. But it was
Speaker 2: very noticeable to me that they were starting with the
Speaker 2: self same speck that had been sput out by an
Speaker 2: AI model. And it is noticeable. So if you think
Speaker 2: you are getting away with it, you probably not. Is
Speaker 2: the big takeaway for me from today that if you
Speaker 2: think that you've done a wonderful thing getting AI to
Speaker 2: polish your job application letter or your school project brief
Speaker 2: or whatever it may be, it is noticeable. It is
Speaker 2: going to be picked up that it was your original,
Speaker 2: don't you find.
Speaker 3: I mean you said you use it, you know, to
Speaker 3: to for social media posts and that kind of thing,
Speaker 3: and I for another radio station. I it's it's talk radio,
Speaker 3: and so I do thirty second consumer hacks, right, and
Speaker 3: I started thinking it was very clever and using AI
Speaker 3: to I would say here's my column, turn it into
Speaker 3: whatever and add a headline. And I'll still do that
Speaker 3: to some extent, but the time it takes me to
Speaker 3: make it my own anyway, I don't like the tone
Speaker 3: of the it's just yeah, And I tried reprompting it,
Speaker 3: and I just you know what, I'm just gonna do.
Speaker 3: It's quickly to just do it myself because I can't
Speaker 3: lose my authentic voice.
Speaker 1: It's what do you have?
Speaker 2: Makes you exactly?
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean even then, don't you find that
Speaker 3: you still have to tweak and absolutely, you know asolutely
Speaker 3: can't just give it free rein in your name.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I mean that's the takeaway. We're not saying
Speaker 2: don't use it by all means. Use it. It's brilliant
Speaker 2: at certain things and it's incredibly useful, like for me
Speaker 2: to be able to say, create an Instagram post, these
Speaker 2: are the details of the event. He has the image
Speaker 2: and it spits out something that you work well. For
Speaker 2: me to then just tweak a massage. It saves me
Speaker 2: hours of time than me trying to copy and paste
Speaker 2: the image and make it the right size and all
Speaker 2: that because I'm not naturally skilled in that. It's brilliant
Speaker 2: for that. Always saying is if you are going to
Speaker 2: use it, don't let it be your only voice, check
Speaker 2: all the information, verify absolutely everything. Never ever assume that
Speaker 2: because groc or chatcy bt said it, it must be true,
Speaker 2: because very often it is not. And the second thing is,
Speaker 2: please take the time to personalize it, to check what
Speaker 2: is being said in your name, to read through it
Speaker 2: and put some you know, and rewrite a couple of
Speaker 2: things in your own in your own voice to make
Speaker 2: it authentically or.
Speaker 1: You want to lose your voice if you just.
Speaker 3: Keep worried, Because I mean, I have a son in
Speaker 3: his twenties and he it's their default is to go
Speaker 3: to the AI to relate it, to do it, and.
Speaker 1: He writes brilliantly.
Speaker 3: And so I've had these hard chats where I say,
Speaker 3: you know, do you want to stand.
Speaker 1: Out polish your own voice?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you used to help.
Speaker 3: With with grunge, you know, but if you're expressing yourself
Speaker 3: and it's important, do it in your own voice.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely all right. I'd love to hear from others
Speaker 2: if you've had this experience as well, either of finding
Speaker 2: AI getting things wrong or hallucinating answers, or if you've
Speaker 2: been on the receiving end of AI generated content that
Speaker 2: you've looked at and gone Firstly, I can see straight
Speaker 2: away that chat Gibt has written this email or perhaps
Speaker 2: you've experienced what so many years, has this rudeness that
Speaker 2: has crept in, And it's not to say that it
Speaker 2: wasn't there before. There are some people who are just
Speaker 2: playing rude on a good old Whatsapple resms as well.
Speaker 2: But are you seeing what Gail was reporting of people
Speaker 2: just not recognizing the tone, the inappropriateness of the tone
Speaker 2: that AI is creating in this content. Keep those WhatsApps
Speaker 2: coming to seven two five six seven one five six seven.
Speaker 1: Lunch with PIPA.
Speaker 2: Hudson on treap Talk join the conversation. So we're going
Speaker 2: to move away from AI for a second on to
Speaker 2: a completely different story. I did say that it's open
Speaker 2: line for the rest of the show, and Margie has
Speaker 2: given us a call from Musenberg wanting to get some
Speaker 2: advice from Wendy. I believe Margie. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Ah.
Speaker 6: Good aftern in for Pom. Wendy, thank you so much
Speaker 6: for taking my call. I've had such a difficult time.
Speaker 6: I really need some help. I was and I'm going
Speaker 6: to I'm going to go quickly because of a long story.
Speaker 6: I had the parking boom come down on my head
Speaker 6: at melamed Chaka Hospital and that was in July. I
Speaker 6: was taken into trauma for three hours and they couldn't
Speaker 6: decide whether to give me a CT scan or not.
Speaker 6: But before our wind, I said to them, am I
Speaker 6: going to have to pay for this so on your property?
Speaker 6: And you know I would like to make my own
Speaker 6: decision if I'm going to have to pay. No, I
Speaker 6: must have ask eight times. No, no, No is our responsibility.
Speaker 6: We're not going to okay. So then they decided not
Speaker 6: to do a CT scan. They sent me home saying
Speaker 6: if I was busy or headaches, well, I've been dizzy
Speaker 6: ever since, and that since July. I'm seventy five years
Speaker 6: old and I teach physically so to drive and get
Speaker 6: to work as been. But anyhow, you know, you survived.
Speaker 6: I went straight to my doctor and he said, no,
Speaker 6: we do need a CT scan and I want you
Speaker 6: at the E and T. And then so I did
Speaker 6: that and then ian T said no, it's very bad whiplash.
Speaker 6: So I had to go to physio, which I'm still doing.
Speaker 6: So that's cost me maybe oh probably six thousand rands.
Speaker 6: But before I before I went to my before I
Speaker 6: did the ceat you scan, I emailed them and said, please,
Speaker 6: would you consider and I said sure, it will cost
Speaker 6: you between three and twelve thousand. So that's when I said,
Speaker 6: now I'll do my own thing. And anyhow, that's and
Speaker 6: you know, I've written to them after that asking them
Speaker 6: and they I haven't heard from them. So now we're
Speaker 6: looking at the beginning of August. Do you know that
Speaker 6: last week I got a bill from the trauma department.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm standing in silence.
Speaker 2: So not only have they not responded to your request
Speaker 2: to pay the subsequent medical bills, they've also built you
Speaker 2: for your care on the day that this happened.
Speaker 1: How much.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, it's not bad because it's only the trauma
Speaker 6: so it's about two thousand and eight. Mean, I know
Speaker 6: for me, it's hectic. For me, it's honestly been hectic.
Speaker 6: I have found them. I immediately emailed them that said, yeah,
Speaker 6: well we've seen your email, so I have a request
Speaker 6: little me. You know, they're not even going to listen.
Speaker 6: I said, I want the head of the hospital and
Speaker 6: I want the head of security, who kept saying that
Speaker 6: that I wasn't going to pay and they said, yoh, well,
Speaker 6: you know they're away at the moment, and and I
Speaker 6: know what's going to happen. They're now going to add
Speaker 6: on or they're going to hand me over. And I
Speaker 6: just don't watched, Margie, where you thank you?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: No, no, is there video footage? There must be always
Speaker 3: are boobs of that age.
Speaker 6: They've looked at that and looked at that, and and
Speaker 6: you know what, that's why you won't believe this. That's
Speaker 6: why I only found out five days later. They came
Speaker 6: back and said, no, we don't need to do the
Speaker 6: CT scan. This is a doctor because we've looked at
Speaker 6: the footage and you didn't lose consciousness.
Speaker 1: I mean, I believe it is trus.
Speaker 5: Listen to this.
Speaker 6: I said, who looked at the footage? And they said
Speaker 6: the security people And I said the medical and they
Speaker 6: said no, So they diagnosed much so.
Speaker 2: The security people made the decision.
Speaker 3: That And tell me, Margie, they have they at any
Speaker 3: point tried to say that it was your fault.
Speaker 6: No, but they are now saying when I requested, please
Speaker 6: could I have a meeting? And I've got a conference
Speaker 6: so I can only see them in two weeks. They
Speaker 6: did say, oh, but the car park really is not
Speaker 6: our responsibility to someone else. And now what did they say? Now, Oh,
Speaker 6: the PA lady said to me yesterday, and well you
Speaker 6: do realize that the security manager should never have told
Speaker 6: you that you wouldn't have paid, You wouldn't need to pay,
Speaker 6: you know, And I just go, well, you know, ethically,
Speaker 6: if someone says you don't pay for me, if you
Speaker 6: tell me something, and I answer, that's what I'll do.
Speaker 6: You know, you can't set me go. I'm not going
Speaker 6: to pay.
Speaker 3: I would very much like to take up your case
Speaker 3: for you, Margie, please.
Speaker 2: Well I'm going to do is put Margie back to
Speaker 2: my scene and Maxine is going to take all of
Speaker 2: your details, Margie so that we can connect you directly
Speaker 2: with Wendy to get the dates, et cetera, the time
Speaker 2: of written written account of that place and all of
Speaker 2: the the correspondence you've had with the hospital as well,
Speaker 2: and Margie will do our very best to follow up
Speaker 2: absolutely Wendy. I mean, that's an interesting comment about Okay,
Speaker 2: there's the hospital, there's the car park. And I know
Speaker 2: car parks are often managed separately, which which can lead
Speaker 2: to some maybe gray area as to whose it.
Speaker 3: Is liable that the hospital will say that, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: an art sourced company, but who are who did the
Speaker 3: art source? Yeah, chain of responsibility and we're going to
Speaker 3: get our good friend tru D Brookman involved. Yes, okay,
Speaker 3: so Margie, please leave all that information with Maxine and
Speaker 3: definitely a story for us to follow up. We've also
Speaker 3: got Scharene on the line with a query on a
Speaker 3: completely different story.
Speaker 2: Is Charene good? Afternoon?
Speaker 5: Good? My problem is a bo a set of earrings, okay,
Speaker 5: the round earrings. Which all I did was to look
Speaker 5: to see what mechanism they used to close off the earrings.
Speaker 5: It's the one that you've got a hole that you
Speaker 5: put the earring into the hole. But then I took
Speaker 5: it off when I got home. I did because you
Speaker 5: don't fit earrings. So I got home and then I
Speaker 5: realized that the earrings they don't have the cutting at
Speaker 5: the bottom. I don't know if you've noticed that the
Speaker 5: earrings that they've got that that the hole that like
Speaker 5: you'll be able to have the cutting at the bottom.
Speaker 5: That is almost as if you're opening up the earring
Speaker 5: like it's at an angle.
Speaker 1: A clip on, a clip on.
Speaker 5: It's not it's not like a clip on it to
Speaker 5: your ear it's it's like it's it fits in and
Speaker 5: then at the back then there's a hole that it
Speaker 5: goes in.
Speaker 2: Oh the little stopper that that fits onto the earring
Speaker 2: to stop it slipping out? Is that what you mean?
Speaker 5: Something something like that. It's almost like, you know, like
Speaker 5: the big earring that like the big ones, the big
Speaker 5: round ones. If if you see that the klipcking the way,
Speaker 5: the closing mechanism and on a.
Speaker 1: Little it's got a hinge.
Speaker 3: Is that what you're talking about. There's a hinge and
Speaker 3: it comes around the back and then the little.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, yes, and then it fits in. But now
Speaker 5: they've done the same design with smaller ear rings. But
Speaker 5: the problem is this, you can't close the earring. By
Speaker 5: the time I had finished clothing, I had to get
Speaker 5: someone to help me close the earring. My ear was so.
Speaker 3: Sore because people have got big air loaves and other
Speaker 3: people have got little ear loaves, and so now it's
Speaker 3: not going to be a one size fit all.
Speaker 5: I don't even think that there's anyone that can I
Speaker 5: have the same ear rings because with not other gold
Speaker 5: earring that I bought, it kind of like opens up
Speaker 5: at the bottom. They almost like cut at the bottom
Speaker 5: of the look the bottom of the earring, so that
Speaker 5: it kind of like open up to give you the space.
Speaker 5: And then it's kind of maybe you're right, Wendy. It
Speaker 5: just clips on. It just clips on on the other side.
Speaker 5: Now I take it back to them, because that's a
Speaker 5: real design floor. No, yeah, because I don't think there's
Speaker 5: Because I ask them, now, can you teach me how
Speaker 5: to wear this earring? All they're telling me is like
Speaker 5: they they don't take their earrings. But I really think
Speaker 5: that it's a genime floor that it should never have
Speaker 5: been done for that sars of earring, because I think
Speaker 5: that earring is something like the damas I will be
Speaker 5: like something like fast centimeters. Those things work well for
Speaker 5: big earrings under like ten or fifteen, Okay, not for that.
Speaker 3: You're essentially you're saying that most people would not be
Speaker 3: able to actually wear those earrings due to their design.
Speaker 5: Yes, you cannot clip it, you cannot close it, so
Speaker 5: because normally yes, sorry.
Speaker 3: I'm just mindful of the time slipping away. Sharene when't
Speaker 3: you take a photograph and also a photograph of you
Speaker 3: attempt you know how the best way that you could
Speaker 3: fit them on your ear, which is unsuccessful but sort
Speaker 3: of throttling your earlobe sort of situation. And give us
Speaker 3: details of the supplier and I'll do my best low
Speaker 3: raise pictures please.
Speaker 5: No, no, no, I know, but the whole point I'm
Speaker 5: not that, but still it's like this is a design flaw.
Speaker 5: No one like that.
Speaker 3: What I'm saying is if you send me your complaint
Speaker 3: exactly what you've shared with us here in writing, with
Speaker 3: pictures of what you're explaining to us in words, then
Speaker 3: I will be able to take the case up with
Speaker 3: the with the retailer and ask them to justify why well,
Speaker 3: ay they're selling them and b why that they're not
Speaker 3: refunding because you they they are not fit for purpose
Speaker 3: and from what you've described true, and the Consumer Protection
Speaker 3: Act then gives you the right to return them for
Speaker 3: a refund.
Speaker 2: Okay, So saren you take a couple of photos please,
Speaker 2: and then send an email to Wendy. Obviously where you
Speaker 2: bought them, very important to age the data that you
Speaker 2: purchased them. A copy of your slip would be helpful
Speaker 2: as well, and obviously very important who you bought them from,
Speaker 2: so that Wendy can take it up with them. The
Speaker 2: email to use is consumer at NOLA dot co dotz
Speaker 2: spelled know l e er consumer at NOLA dot co
Speaker 2: dot zede and Sharen. Please just put the words Cape
Speaker 2: talk earrings in the subject lines that Wendy can keep
Speaker 2: an eye out for it.
Speaker 4: If that's okay, any, okay, Thanks so much, Tindy.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much Sharen for your call. We're almost
Speaker 2: out of time. Just to wrap up, let me finish
Speaker 2: with a reminder on how you lodge a case with Wendy.
Speaker 2: So if you are a first time complainant, I know
Speaker 2: a lot of people are tempted to first send an
Speaker 2: email to Wendy saying, oh, this is what happened in submody.
Speaker 2: Would you be prepared to take on my case but
Speaker 2: not actually give the information. The best thing to do
Speaker 2: is just dive straight in. Don't send out the exploratory email.
Speaker 2: Mail straight away with all of the relevant information date
Speaker 2: of purchase, price, where you bought the item, what the
Speaker 2: nature of the issue is, any reference numbers or phone numbers,
Speaker 2: et cetera that go with it. Put that all in
Speaker 2: that first initial email to Wendy, or use the form
Speaker 2: on her website, Wendy, you want to jump.
Speaker 3: In, say, some people send a tentative thing and ask
Speaker 3: me what my fee is. So I'm a journalist, I
Speaker 3: charge no fee. But I also have no specific obligation
Speaker 3: to take up every case because I don't have the
Speaker 3: besty to do so.
Speaker 2: Someput obviously, Yeah, there are hundreds of emails coming into
Speaker 2: Wendy every week. She can't look into every case. Please
Speaker 2: do bear that in mind. She does this work without
Speaker 2: taking payment for it, so she has to pick and
Speaker 2: choose to some degree. And we always try for the
Speaker 2: show's purposes to look for sort of clusters of complaints
Speaker 2: and recurring issues, sort of class action situations where there
Speaker 2: is a benefit for all of our listeners to learn
Speaker 2: from them or from a particular kind of breach of
Speaker 2: the CPA. But if you would like to use the
Speaker 2: contact form on Wendy's website, that's also a very good
Speaker 2: way to reach out, and that is Wendy Nola dot
Speaker 2: co dot Wendy. As always, thank you for the work
Speaker 2: on all the cases you do manage to get through.
Speaker 2: I don't know how you get to as many as
Speaker 2: you do. And we will out again next week Wednesday,
Speaker 2: episode