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Speaker 1: Now the rest of the second hour of the show

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Speaker 1: today is given entirely over to a conversation about online

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Speaker 1: dating and particularly the issue of how to avoid falling

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Speaker 1: victim to the scam artists who are out there and

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Speaker 1: unfortunately are getting ever more polished in how to manipulate

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Speaker 1: this space. I've never used online dating platforms before. They

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Speaker 1: didn't exist in the days when I was dating, and

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Speaker 1: from what I've heard, I'm quite relief that. But I

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Speaker 1: can tell you this that my Inbox and Wendy Nola

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Speaker 1: are consumer journalists. In Box have seen more than their

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Speaker 1: fair share of the aftermath, shall we put it that way,

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Speaker 1: emails from victims saying can you help get money back

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Speaker 1: that has been taken by scammers. We've also seen our

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Speaker 1: fair share of emails from desperate friends and family members saying,

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Speaker 1: I am watching it happen. I can see my loved

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Speaker 1: one being drawn into a trap, and for love or money,

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Speaker 1: I cannot get them to recognize that that is what

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Speaker 1: is happening.

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Speaker 2: What do I do?

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Speaker 1: So today, we want to share a couple of perspectives

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Speaker 1: with you. Is quite humorous. The other one is going

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Speaker 1: to take them more serious. Is it a business like approach,

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Speaker 1: if we can put it that way, because we didnt

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Speaker 1: have from someone who has had her own quite recent

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Speaker 1: experience of looking for love online and had such a

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Speaker 1: riot navigating the space that she's actually written her experiences

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Speaker 1: down and published a book called Red Flags and Roses,

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Speaker 1: and she is going to chat to us about some

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Speaker 1: of those experiences, particularly the ones that took us into

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Speaker 1: the area of the scam artist. And then a little

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Speaker 1: bit later on in this conversation, we'll hear from a

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Speaker 1: fraud prevention expert who is going to share some cold

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Speaker 1: hard facts with us about how these scams are implemented

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Speaker 1: and how to avoid being a victim. So to both

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Speaker 1: of our guests, really looking forward to that conversation, and

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Speaker 1: to those of you listening today who have had direct experience,

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Speaker 1: whether you have been a victim, a near victim, maybe

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Speaker 1: you saw them a mile away and you were able

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Speaker 1: to spot them and react. Maybe right now you were

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Speaker 1: watching a family member who you think is being sucked in.

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Speaker 1: If you want to share with us, you can welcome.

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Speaker 1: You are welcome to send a what's up to seven

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Speaker 1: to five six seven five six seven. Let's start with

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Speaker 1: the writer Susan Harrison with me in studio today, the

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Speaker 1: author of Red Flags and Roses, which is her account

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Speaker 1: of her experiences with online dating and some of the

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Speaker 1: really funny anecdotes, some of them quite serious, some of

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Speaker 1: them into the realm of the scams and would be

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Speaker 1: con artists and Susan, thanks for coming into studio to

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Speaker 1: share this with us. It's great to have you with us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me today, Papa, A

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Speaker 3: huge pleasure, wonderful to be here.

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Speaker 1: So you dipped your toes back into the dating pool

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Speaker 1: after your eleven year marriage came to an end. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever tried online dating before then?

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Speaker 3: Never? And in fact, was relatively new in those days.

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Speaker 3: Because this book spans fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, okay, So I didn't realize the time span was

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Speaker 1: quite that extensive. Yes, So you really gave it a

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Speaker 1: full of thorough vetting, didn't you.

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Speaker 3: I did. It wasn't always online a lot of the time.

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Speaker 3: I was. I was, you know, I was initially I

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Speaker 3: was very very busy and had a very demanding career,

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Speaker 3: and I really wasn't looking for the one. I was

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Speaker 3: more actually, I was more interested in meeting someone. I

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Speaker 3: just having a male boyfriend. But preferably at a distance.

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Speaker 3: I didn't live in Cape Town and that and it

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Speaker 3: then it evolved into different needs and wants over the years,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes there was a four year gap where I

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Speaker 3: didn't go online at all, but it had It has

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Speaker 3: been an amazing journey for me, and I know that

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of talk around scammers. My advice to

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Speaker 3: women in particular is, if you have never gone online,

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Speaker 3: treat this like you would any business venture or something

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Speaker 3: that you're going to do that needs a lot of thought.

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Speaker 3: So what is it that you want to achieve from

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Speaker 3: the online dating? That's your first objective. The second one

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Speaker 3: is to establish the dos and don'ts. What wouldn't work

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Speaker 3: for you? You know, So there are two lots of

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Speaker 3: red flags. The one is what doesn't work for you

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Speaker 3: if you don't like dogs, or you don't like cats,

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Speaker 3: or you're not a cyclist, you're not athletic. Those are

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Speaker 3: very important things because we get very caught up in

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Speaker 3: the conversation with a new person and we tend to

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Speaker 3: ignore those very factors that we initially have said are no.

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Speaker 1: Important to us.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and you find yourself there sort of engaging with someone,

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Speaker 3: spending time with someone who ultimately is going to be

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Speaker 3: a waste of time because you're not going to meet

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Speaker 3: they're not going to meet your need and you're not

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Speaker 3: going to meet their need. And the other very very

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Speaker 3: obvious red flag, and I'm not sure that one can

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Speaker 3: say this, but I'm very conscious of the fact that

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Speaker 3: a lot of the dating sites are earned by one organization,

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Speaker 3: so they usually are there's a head organization, and then

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Speaker 3: they have different apps that engage different objectives and they,

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Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, are aware that these fraudsters

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Speaker 3: are online that the owners of the platform, so it's

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Speaker 3: income generating. And the big red flag is one picture,

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Speaker 3: only a short bio or three pictures and they're very

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Speaker 3: photoshopped and you kind of get the feeling is this

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Speaker 3: the same guy? And the other famous one is they're

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Speaker 3: a project manager or they're an engineer and they're working

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Speaker 3: abroad but they wanting to come back to South Africa,

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Speaker 3: or they're coming down to do something and would like

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Speaker 3: to engage with you, and they immediately start to profess

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Speaker 3: love at the very onset. You're so beautiful. Oh, I've

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Speaker 3: never seen such a beautiful woman. I know that you're

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Speaker 3: the love of my life. And you've barely said two words.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And here's the kicker, this is the one that I love.

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Speaker 3: I always spend very little time engaging online. I like

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Speaker 3: to get a Whatsap number. I don't necessarily give my number,

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Speaker 3: but I get a Whatsap number and then I phone

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Speaker 3: that number randomly to see who answers. And invariably it's

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Speaker 3: an accent or a voice that goes hang on. You

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Speaker 3: think to yourself, hang on a minute, that doesn't match

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Speaker 3: the first of all, last, this is something that's completely off. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and you pick that up very very quickly. I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to think.

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Speaker 1: Of You've said something so important there around the offline conversation.

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Speaker 1: And I know when we speak to our food prevention

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Speaker 1: guests they get a flag this as well. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the big big red flags if the person is

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Speaker 1: resisting having an actual conversation with you voice to voice,

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Speaker 1: if not face to face, at least voice to voice.

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Speaker 1: If it's always a WhatsApp or I can't talk now,

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Speaker 1: I'm in a meeting, I'm going to phone you back,

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Speaker 1: and it's always a text or a WhatsApp. There's generally

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Speaker 1: a reason for that, and that is because the voice

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Speaker 1: attached to this person does not match the profile you

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Speaker 1: think you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. The other thing also is that you need to

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Speaker 3: familiarize yourself with chatchypt because that is an incredibly informative platform.

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Speaker 3: If you're new to online dating, do a course. It's

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Speaker 3: not it's you can do a basic course on chatch ept.

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Speaker 3: It'll tell you exactly how to pose the questions. You

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Speaker 3: impose the questions exactly as you need them. It'll tell

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Speaker 3: you which online starts to aim for, It'll tell you

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Speaker 3: all the dos and don't. It is really really informative

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Speaker 3: and get yourself informed. You know, you're not going to

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Speaker 3: jump out of an errorplane without doing some research as

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Speaker 3: to what your reality is, how safe it might be.

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Speaker 3: So it really is about taking a good, hard look

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Speaker 3: at yourself and taking responsibility really for the reality that

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Speaker 3: you're going online and the fact that there are already

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Speaker 3: so many red flags around online dating. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: a serious business. It's not just flashing the pan. It's

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Speaker 3: you've got to really know what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: And I really want to thank you for coming in

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Speaker 1: in person to share some of these tips with us.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to pick up after the news headlines

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Speaker 1: on what you've just said about using technology to help

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Speaker 1: you use technology more safely, because I think there are

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Speaker 1: some very practical, easy to use tools that can help

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Speaker 1: you very very quickly discern whether you're talking to a

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Speaker 1: genuine human being or a fake profile. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: somebody's message me Keith saying I've heard of a woman

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Speaker 1: who thinks she's communicating with Yanick Sinner. It was Brad

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Speaker 1: Pitt was the famous one for many years that people

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Speaker 1: were falling for. I mean, you know, you read that

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Speaker 1: out and you think, how on earth could anybody believe

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Speaker 1: that they are genuinely in a relationship with a famous megastar,

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Speaker 1: and yet it is happening. And we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: to our second guest about how it's happening and the

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Speaker 1: kind of social engineering that is making that kind of possible.

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Speaker 3: You with Cape Talk listens Papoutan on lunch.

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Speaker 1: We're back continuing our conversation about online dating scams, and

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Speaker 1: just to recap before the break, you were listening to

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Speaker 1: Susan Harrison, who's still with me in studio, the author

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Speaker 1: of a book called Red Flags and Roses, which details

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Speaker 1: her experiences, warts and awe of I should say Harry

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Speaker 1: Baxon or Susan more accurately of online dating. We'll leave

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Speaker 1: that story for another day, but of course, I mean

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Speaker 1: you were raising a couple of really important points before

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Speaker 1: the break, and I just want to circle back to

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Speaker 1: one or two of your experiences, and then we are

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Speaker 1: going to bring in a fraud prevention expert to take

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Speaker 1: a sort of a cold hard look at some of

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Speaker 1: the forms this is taking. You have several anecdotes in

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Speaker 1: your book, Susan. The first approach from Miguel. Miguel working

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Speaker 1: on a project in Mozambique, doesn't speak great English, but

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Speaker 1: is really keen to meet somebody in South Africa and

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Speaker 1: is planning to be spending six months of the year

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Speaker 1: in France and six months in essay. And what I

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Speaker 1: laughed about the story is how you responded to him

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Speaker 1: once you'd spotted the con because you didn't just block

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Speaker 1: him and move on. You you actually decided to dig

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Speaker 1: right in there, tell us what happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, after a while, when you've been doing a bit

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Speaker 3: of online daty, you get quite savvy, and I just

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Speaker 3: thought aboutself, you know, I really have to play this

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Speaker 3: well along. And what I did was I really engaged

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Speaker 3: with him, and I was, Oh, my goodness, I can't

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Speaker 3: wait to meet you. I'm so excited. And then he said,

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Speaker 3: you know, unfortunately my girlfriend has emptied my bank account

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to need some assistance. And I then responded,

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Speaker 3: after a bit of a fair amount of communication with him,

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Speaker 3: I said to me, you know, I have to be

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Speaker 3: honest with you, but I actually don't have any money,

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Speaker 3: and I also don't look like my pictures, and I've

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Speaker 3: put on quite a lot of weight, and my car's

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Speaker 3: broken and my son's going to fix it for me.

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Speaker 3: But I'll try and see what I can do about

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Speaker 3: at least getting a friend to take me to the

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Speaker 3: airport to meet you. And that was the end of Everard.

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Speaker 1: Never from He just disappeared, and all the declarations of

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Speaker 1: love went with him. I mean a couple of similar anecdotes,

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Speaker 1: and Okay, you you very I mean, you are a

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Speaker 1: very independent, strong minded, strong personality. You're not going to

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Speaker 1: suffer fools. I mean that's very clear reading this book

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Speaker 1: and meeting you at person, Susan, that you you had

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Speaker 1: eyes wide open for this kind of thing. But as

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Speaker 1: we heard before the break, there are unfortunately a huge

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Speaker 1: number of people who are falling for it. You either

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Speaker 1: don't know to look out for it or are are

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Speaker 1: dragged into it because they are handled with such skill

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Speaker 1: by the fraudsters. And this is where I want to

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Speaker 1: bring in this concept of social engineering and bring in

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Speaker 1: our second guest this afternoon, because listening into what happened before,

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Speaker 1: Camp who is communications lead for the South African Ford

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Speaker 1: Prevention Service and is joining us via Assume this afternoon,

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Speaker 1: and Elmi, thank you so much. We really value your

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Speaker 1: time and input this afternoon. Thanks for listening into that

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Speaker 1: first place part and for joining us. Now welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, but that's good to be here.

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Speaker 1: And can we just raise the volume so that Susan's

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Speaker 1: able to hear el me, Thanks, Alessandro. I mean Susan

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Speaker 1: was just relating before the break. She was able to

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Speaker 1: spot the frauds deisim mile away. She could see the

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Speaker 1: sort of the progression of the love bombing that came first,

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Speaker 1: and then the subtle request for some money that became

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Speaker 1: less and less subtle the further it went on. That's

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Speaker 1: a fairly sort of traditional progression of the scam. But

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Speaker 1: the question is how often this is happening. What are

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Speaker 1: you seeing at the Ford Prevention Service, And in terms

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Speaker 1: of how often people are reporting that they actually fell

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Speaker 1: for it, that they were fraudulately handled on an online

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Speaker 1: dating scam, that they handed over money and never saw

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Speaker 1: it again. Is it happening more and more frequently in

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Speaker 1: South Africa?

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Speaker 2: I think the thought answer is that it is happening

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Speaker 2: consistently and continuously, and we can see that it is.

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Speaker 2: It's evolving. Let me put it that way. And you

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Speaker 2: very carefully mentioned social engineering. This is a this is

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Speaker 2: a very skilled tactic where they essentially use your behavior

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Speaker 2: and what you share with the world against you to

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Speaker 2: influence or deceive you. You know, they study you, they

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Speaker 2: profile you, and they document key details that they can

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Speaker 2: use in their scams. So really, the more you put

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Speaker 2: online and the more we act online, which we are

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Speaker 2: doing every single day, the more prevalent is going to be.

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Speaker 1: It's so true what you've said, and I mean, I

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Speaker 1: mean I've experienced it. I'm sure every one of my

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Speaker 1: colleagues has experienced it. You know, we're on public platforms

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Speaker 1: and we do share a certain amount of ourselves on

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Speaker 1: public platforms, and there are people out there who will

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Speaker 1: try to use that against you and try to insinuate

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Speaker 1: themselves using a little nugget of detail that I, oh,

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Speaker 1: I met you and your daughter she's a medical for example,

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Speaker 1: as if that's a way that they have actually met

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Speaker 1: me in person, and you learn to spot it, but

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Speaker 1: not everybody knows to look out for it and ell me.

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Speaker 1: Let's just dig into what that looks like. Because you're

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Speaker 1: talking there about people using our own information that we

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Speaker 1: have put out there against us. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: elaborate a little bit on the kinds of things you're

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Speaker 1: talking about and just raise a few red flags about

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Speaker 1: the things people should think twice about sharing on public

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Speaker 1: platforms because this might happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, so. I think what we need to keep

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Speaker 2: in mind is that these scammers are exceptionally skilled at

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Speaker 2: crafting a persona that you would be attracted to or

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Speaker 2: drawn to. So they really look at who are you following,

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Speaker 2: They look at yours, they look at your comments, they

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Speaker 2: look at your hobbies, what you're sharing. Those are the

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Speaker 2: kind of things that they could do to create a

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Speaker 2: profile that is your ideal partner, because that is what

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Speaker 2: you are looking for. So they have a pretty predictable

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Speaker 2: behavioral cycle. So I'm just gonna just give you a

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Speaker 2: very high level idea of what that is. So they

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Speaker 2: identify emotional vulnerability. So they look at how people are acting.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes people may appear slightly lonely, or they've recently been

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Speaker 2: divorced or widowed, or they seem isolated on their public profile,

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Speaker 2: so that gives them an end. They believe this person

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Speaker 2: can do their looking for connection. Then they create emotional dependency.

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Speaker 2: Like you said, they send those daily messages and they

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Speaker 2: really compliment you, like Susan was saying, they support you.

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Speaker 2: You feel so understood and seen and chosen. And not

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Speaker 2: everyone has their armor up like Susan did, but they

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Speaker 2: feel so valued in that moment. Then they also do

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Speaker 2: very cleverly, they will try and isolate victims. They do

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Speaker 2: this quite slucky, so they'll discourage them from telling friends

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Speaker 2: or family about this relationship, saying things like no one

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Speaker 2: will understand and that their connection is so unique and special.

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Speaker 2: And then after that, once they've gained your and they've

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Speaker 2: built this connection, there comes financial manipulation angle. This can

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Speaker 2: take many forms, so you know, this can be an

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Speaker 2: emergency or their child is very sick, or their bank

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Speaker 2: has blocked their card and they're stuck in a funny

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Speaker 2: country and they won't have money, so they're quite desperate,

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Speaker 2: and they make you believe that they're actually too embarrassed

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Speaker 2: to ask, or they're not really asking. So often victims

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Speaker 2: will offer to help them and then they'll be forever

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Speaker 2: and their dead kind of thing, and then you know,

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Speaker 2: once the scam is complete and they've taken it as

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Speaker 2: far as they can, they disappear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a process of grooming. As we talk about

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Speaker 1: grooming in the context of predators online grooming children to

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Speaker 1: be their victims, but you're talking about exactly the same behavior.

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Speaker 1: Patterns are very subtly insinuating themselves into your lived reality

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Speaker 1: so that you learn to trust them. You let your

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Speaker 1: guard down, and you start to consider something that you

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Speaker 1: know you wouldn't ordinarily in a wildless dreams considered doing.

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Speaker 1: And I want to highlight what you just said. It

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Speaker 1: can be, you know, stuff that is publicly available about you.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking now of the description on all of my

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Speaker 1: social media profiles, which say I am a bulldog lover,

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Speaker 1: I am a surfer. So of course there's there's information

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Speaker 1: that somebody could potentially use against me. If their profile

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Speaker 1: photograph is going to be a person with a bulldog

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Speaker 1: in the photograph, I'm instinctively going to be going, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this person must be okay now on that on that note,

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Speaker 1: ell me. The photographs are the one way we can

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Speaker 1: do a little bit of amateur slew thing to check

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Speaker 1: that people are who they say they are. In the

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Speaker 1: age of AI, I know it's it's harder than ever

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Speaker 1: to spot a fake photograph, but tips like reverse reverse

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Speaker 1: searching photo images, et cetera online can help us spot

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Speaker 1: a photograph that's just been lifted off somebody else's site

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Speaker 1: for example. Would you advocate for that kind of behavior,

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Speaker 1: that little bit of sort of a PI detective work.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I would definitely advocate for you to

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Speaker 2: do your research. But you know, not everyone has access

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Speaker 2: to this kind of technology, so we know our advice

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Speaker 2: is really going back to basics. I mean, I'll talk

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Speaker 2: about red flags now, but one of those things that

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Speaker 2: we tell you to do to protect yourself is to

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Speaker 2: do a bit of googling, do a bit of research, research,

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Speaker 2: look at the various profiles and the photos, because you

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Speaker 2: often will find that there's inconsistencies, and I mean, you

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Speaker 2: just have to trust your gut with that kind of thing. So, yes,

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Speaker 2: there are technologies that you can use, but we're also

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Speaker 2: saying trust your gut, do a bit of research, verify,

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Speaker 2: talk to people, talk to people around you. Does this

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Speaker 2: sound funny because I think what we're doing is we

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Speaker 2: don't speak to people. We need to be skeptical as well,

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Speaker 2: and not to share any information with people.

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Speaker 1: Susan nodding an agreement in the background here with a

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Speaker 1: lot of what you're saying, and Susan going to circle

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Speaker 1: back to you in a moment, but just picking up

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Speaker 1: on what you said about the red flags on mean,

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Speaker 1: what in your opinion on the big red flags to

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Speaker 1: look up for well.

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Speaker 2: Susan actually did also touch on some of that. That

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Speaker 2: is that evasive behavior. You know, their availability is limited.

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Speaker 2: They can speak to you on their terms, if they're

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Speaker 2: avoiding conversations when you can talk to them or in

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Speaker 2: person meetings. You know, they show an intense interest in

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Speaker 2: your life, but they also tend to avoid answering personal

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Speaker 2: questions about themselves or meeting face to face, or their

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Speaker 2: stories seem a little bit inconsistent and maybe something doesn't

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Speaker 2: add up, that is an immediate red flag. Then also

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Speaker 2: if they have the unusual interest in personal details, so

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Speaker 2: they ask you a lot of questions about yourself, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that way they create that profile about you that

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Speaker 2: could be pet names, birthdays, and adversaries, things like that,

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Speaker 2: or even other sensitive information because with that personal detail

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Speaker 2: they can potentially try and commit impersonation fraud later on

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Speaker 2: if they gain enough information about you. Then also if

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Speaker 2: they start asking for money, you know, that is also

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Speaker 2: an immediate red flag. You know, they it be coming

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Speaker 2: to you for money, especially if it's on an online

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Speaker 2: profile and you guys are not serious, that is an

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Speaker 2: immediate red flag. And if they start talking to you

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Speaker 2: about investment opportunities or great other things that you can

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Speaker 2: invest in that maybe worked for them or something like that.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I think those are the big, big red flags, Elmi.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, and they're so important to highlight and to raise

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Speaker 1: awareness of because, as I said a moment ago, with

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Speaker 1: with AI enabling us to do so much more in

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Speaker 1: terms of creating and workshopping photos, et cetera. The deep

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Speaker 1: fake phenomenon is what I'm talking about. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: potential to use that, and the scammers are very very

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Speaker 1: good at using it and making it seem so authentic

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Speaker 1: and so believable. This is how they're getting at us.

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Speaker 1: Before we let you go, anything else you'd like to mention,

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Speaker 1: particularly around if you suspect somebody is a scammer, or

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Speaker 1: you want to report somebody who's tried to scam you online.

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Speaker 1: Is that something courage because I know a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are too embarrassed to admit that it happened to them,

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Speaker 1: or to admit that they almost fell for it, which

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Speaker 1: is the better scenario. Those that did fall victim, I

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Speaker 1: know are particularly hesitant to come forward because they're so

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Speaker 1: embarrassed that they fell for it. But it is really

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Speaker 1: important to spread the word if it happens. Not so.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, and there is really no shame in being caught

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Speaker 2: out in a scam like this because of how advanced

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Speaker 2: they are. There's really no shame and your story can

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Speaker 2: help someone else. So we do say please report it,

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Speaker 2: report it to the relevant organization, to the platform, to

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Speaker 2: the authorities. If you want to. You can even report

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Speaker 2: it to Yima, which is a product of the SAFPS.

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Speaker 2: So there's more on that on our website and if

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Speaker 2: the intelligence gathered from the reporting that you do helps

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Speaker 2: prevent future fraud and also enables those organizations or platforms

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Speaker 2: to potentially add additional layers of protection within their processes

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Speaker 2: to prevent this from happening happening to other people. And

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Speaker 2: then the last thing we ask people to do is

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Speaker 2: to talk about it, spread the news and telling others

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Speaker 2: what happened to you or what you've heard about is

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Speaker 2: what will prevent other people from falling victim.

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Speaker 1: Tell me camp. Thank you so much for your time

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Speaker 1: this afternoon. Some very important practical advice there from the

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Speaker 1: communications lead for the Essay Fraud Prevention Service, and please

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Speaker 1: do Google sa FPS or Yima y ima, which is

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Speaker 1: their product for reporting this kind of thing. Susan back

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Speaker 1: to you, did you do any amount of sleuthing and

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Speaker 1: following up on people? Because I've heard some who very

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Speaker 1: savvy users of online dating platforms dig deep. They go

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Speaker 1: and look at LinkedIn profiles, their phone companies to check

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Speaker 1: that the person works where they said they worked, etc.

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Speaker 1: Did you go that far.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. One of the first things I would do is

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Speaker 3: ask if they were on Facebook and friend request them

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Speaker 3: on Facebook. And the big red flag is when you

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Speaker 3: see a Facebook page and there's virtually nothing on it

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Speaker 3: and it's just been created, and it tells. Facebook tells

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Speaker 3: you a lot about people because that history stretches way back.

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Speaker 3: It'll tell you about family, friends, pastimes, interests. It really

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Speaker 3: really is very informative. And the very point that was

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Speaker 3: raised a little earlier about the questions that the fraudsters asking,

435
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 3: you can do a reverse psychology. You can ask the

436
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 3: questions and avoid giving answers, so when you get posed questions,

437
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 3: you simply throw the question back without answering, so that

438
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 3: you then become the interrogator and you are creating an

439
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 3: idea of the profile that you're dealing with, and invariably

440
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: they don't respond.

441
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: Do you want to give us an example?

442
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 3: An example would be I noticed that you have children?

443
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 3: How old are they? Do you have custody? What is

444
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 3: your relationship like with your children? Are you very close

445
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 3: to them? Do you have a large circle of friends

446
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: or would you call yourself alone? If he's athletic, do

447
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 3: you belong to a cycle club? How often do you

448
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: go to German? I noticed that you say you're you're

449
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: in finance. What kind of finance are you in? So

450
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 3: there's a host of questions you can ask what are

451
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: your interests? I love art, how do you feel about it?

452
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 3: What's your genre of music that you like to listen to?

453
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 3: I didn't even know what a genre meant to help

454
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: back until i'd heard it someone and said, what genre

455
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: do you like? Us? Like, what's the genre? Dead? Ask

456
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: him because he was amuser.

457
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: Just for anybody who's coming late to this conversation. Previously

458
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: you were hearing from the South African Fraud Prevention Service

459
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: and that was ELM Camp, their communications lead talking about

460
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: the red Flags and the importance of reporting. The voice

461
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: in studio with me today. Susan Harrison, the author of

462
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: Red Flags and Roses and Everything in Between, I should

463
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: add which just the subtitle, and it is a very

464
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: candid account of her own more than a decade of

465
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: exploring the world of online dating and it's highs and lows,

466
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: and included in those anecdotes the story of a couple

467
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: of would be scammers who didn't manage to get the

468
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: better of Susan, or if they did, she hasn't revealed

469
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: it in the book, we should say, but I suspect

470
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: that they probably bit of more than they could chew.

471
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: If they tried. I mean, we've spoken a lot about

472
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: the things to be alert to and that evasive behavior.

473
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: They're never wanting to talk in person. Your tip of

474
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: finding a phone number and then using it at a

475
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: random time when they're not expecting to hear from you

476
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: is a very quick way to catch somebody off. God

477
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 1: things like you go and look at a true caller,

478
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: check if the person's number is registered on true caller,

479
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: because maybe they are red flagged by somebody else who

480
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: said this is a scam artist looking for money for example.

481
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: Just do those few checks and you know, a little

482
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: bit of digging in investigation yourself to very quickly weed

483
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: out the obvious fakers. Of course, the problem is the

484
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: ones who are really really good at SUSAN, who are

485
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: using the modern technology like the AI, deep fake capacity, etc.

486
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: To build a very believable profile, and who are committed

487
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: to time and prepared to put the time in to

488
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: build a long standing profile that is believable. You really

489
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: have got to have your wits about you. I don't

490
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: want to finish on a negative, though, I do want

491
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: to end by saying that, I mean, there are more

492
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: roses than red flags in your book. There's some very

493
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: funny anecdotes of the dates that didn't go well, but

494
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: there are also some lovely examples of really deep connections

495
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: that you made with people. Looking back on it now,

496
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,719
Speaker 1: do you regret the time that you spent on online

497
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: dating or do you feel that it was valuable and worthwhile.

498
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely valuable and worthwhile. It is something I highly recommend

499
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: you will make some really good friends. You don't necessarily

500
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 3: meet the love of your life. But I think what

501
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 3: it does is it teaches us to grow because every

502
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 3: time you meet with someone a potential date, or you

503
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: engage with something, you learn a lot about yourself that

504
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: you weren't necessarily aware of. And sometimes you actually meet

505
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: up with somebody who is literally has an office around

506
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 3: the corner from where your office is, and that is

507
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 3: astounding because you literally meet us away from each other

508
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: and you don't know that either one of you exists.

509
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 3: And I've had an incredible experience. I've met some amazing people.

510
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: My current partner took up the last seven chapters of

511
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 3: my book and we're still together.

512
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: So it's not to say don't do it, and it's

513
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: not to say that it now can It's just go

514
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: in with your wits about you.

515
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

516
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: Well, I want to thank you for being so frank

517
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: in what you've shared with us, not just in the interviewing,

518
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: in the book as well. Final question to you, Susan,

519
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: if our listeners would like to get a hold of

520
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: a copy of your book it's called Red Flags and Roses,

521
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: where can they buy it?

522
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: They would be able to buy it online at either

523
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: Take a Lot or on Amazon. Alternatively, if they go

524
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: onto the Facebook page that I've just created Red Flags

525
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: and Roses and everything in between, I will take it

526
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: upon myself to get a copy of the book for you,

527
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 3: sign it and post it off to you. So just

528
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: yees directly with me on Facebook.

529
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: And she Israel. I'm looking at her in the flesh,

530
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: having a face to face, voice to voice conversation, I

531
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: can vouch for the fact that even though the Facebook

532
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: page is new, it doesn't mean she's a scam artist.

533
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: Super lovely to meet you and thanks so much for

534
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: joining us today.

535
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: But thank you so much for the opportunity. It's absolutely wonderful.

536
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: That's fun