WEBVTT - Openline 0:00:03.110 --> 0:00:05.870 Eight minutes after 11 o'clock. And thank you so much 0:00:05.890 --> 0:00:08.120 for joining us in this final hour. We open the 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.340 lines now for your thoughts about the various things that 0:00:11.380 --> 0:00:14.700 are taking place in your world here in South Africa 0:00:14.740 --> 0:00:19.360 and elsewhere that you've been thinking about. So it's an 0:00:19.410 --> 0:00:25.250 open line. The number to dial is 011-883-0702. As you call, 0:00:25.530 --> 0:00:28.270 I want to remind you that we started off with Dr. 0:00:28.450 --> 0:00:33.110 Sizwe Ngasana, co-founder of Future Nation Foundation. and CEO of 0:00:33.130 --> 0:00:39.480 Sviso Learning, talking about African schools preparing learners to solve 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:46.000 tomorrow's problems. We had a wonderful conversation about ideas, concepts, 0:00:46.060 --> 0:00:52.989 and how they can become authentically yours. So that you 0:00:53.229 --> 0:00:56.029 imbibe them in a way that you can apply them 0:00:58.670 --> 0:01:04.209 contextually and authentically. I think that that is our goal 0:01:05.810 --> 0:01:08.190 here in South Africa and perhaps the rest of the 0:01:08.250 --> 0:01:20.140 African continent. To get to a point where we internalize concepts, ideas, 0:01:22.660 --> 0:01:30.280 not for regurgitation, but for contextual implementation. 0:01:31.660 --> 0:01:31.940 Yes. 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:39.550 For the longest time, we have borne the burden of 0:01:39.650 --> 0:01:46.050 thinking that we are educated because we have a particular credential. 0:01:48.250 --> 0:01:51.350 When education is demanding a little bit more from us, 0:01:52.570 --> 0:02:06.020 that is the ability to implement contextually, relevantly, appropriately. And 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.160 I would argue that what we have been producing mostly 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:18.350 have been people that are frankly unemployable at certain levels 0:02:18.750 --> 0:02:29.790 of commerce. Yes, those people may have certain qualifications and documents, 0:02:31.970 --> 0:02:39.210 but the The reality of not having internalized, made your 0:02:39.500 --> 0:02:45.530 own certain concepts, not just for the purpose of being 0:02:45.690 --> 0:02:50.850 able to write and pass an exam, is part of 0:02:50.889 --> 0:03:00.450 the hijacking, I would argue, of minds to render them useless. 0:03:01.270 --> 0:03:01.450 True. 0:03:04.940 --> 0:03:13.820 So that some can legitimately say these people are not 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:23.450 worth the paper they are written on. If you look 0:03:23.650 --> 0:03:31.070 at many successful nations who have been able to take 0:03:35.230 --> 0:03:43.000 and internalize it and make it their own. In other words, 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:56.840 create concepts that are authentically original for the purpose of innovation. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.470 Those people are people that were able to connect with themselves. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:13.339 And I think that our education process must strive to 0:04:13.620 --> 0:04:29.890 make us connect with ourselves. And not just billboards, flat 0:04:30.950 --> 0:04:38.029 billboards of ideas that we don't even understand ourselves. Because 0:04:38.089 --> 0:04:44.289 if anybody understands that about you, it is very easy 0:04:44.350 --> 0:04:49.830 to predict your downfall. It is very easy to see 0:04:49.940 --> 0:04:56.600 that you are on a way to nothing. Because they 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:05.970 understand that you have not internalized and connected with the 0:05:06.070 --> 0:05:13.380 information that you call education in fact most of the 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:19.800 people that are said to be educated are nothing more 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:33.630 than indoctrinated yes they unquestioningly regurgitate ideas that they have 0:05:33.710 --> 0:05:45.020 not interrogated for themselves So the education process is for 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:57.820 no other purpose than performative purposes. Purposes to boast, to mock, 0:06:00.810 --> 0:06:05.890 to oppress even further those that don't have those so-called 0:06:06.390 --> 0:06:18.320 levels of education. That's why I argue that the neocolonial reality, 0:06:18.380 --> 0:06:22.730 particularly of our continent, and the leaders who are so-called, 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:29.650 or who were so-called educated, was more brutal in many 0:06:29.790 --> 0:06:39.620 instances than the oppression of erstwhile colonizers. Yeah, true. Because 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.080 it was a brutality that was meted out by people 0:06:45.740 --> 0:06:58.969 who had no relationship with themselves except a performative validation 0:06:59.070 --> 0:07:07.339 seeking exercise from those who taught you the things that 0:07:07.420 --> 0:07:18.500 oppressed your people. So we desperately need a re-education. One 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.920 of the saddest things that I watch is how so-called 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:31.480 educated people take so much pleasure, derive so much enjoyment 0:07:32.740 --> 0:07:37.480 from the mocking of people that are said to be 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:51.800 not educated. It's sad. Sad how people will speak in mocking, 0:07:52.700 --> 0:08:00.850 disparaging terms. Anyway, let me move on from that one. 0:08:02.030 --> 0:08:07.540 Then we spoke to Genanao Mashupia, Director of Mashupia HR 0:08:07.620 --> 0:08:12.690 Consulting and we were talking about qualification fraud and I 0:08:12.740 --> 0:08:16.380 suppose that conversation could have gone down the route of 0:08:16.980 --> 0:08:22.240 what is qualification fraud. How do they do it? But 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.180 that conversation went to a place that I think was 0:08:26.300 --> 0:08:31.180 quite relevant in the sense that we, for a few minutes, 0:08:31.260 --> 0:08:41.679 interrogated why it is that the symbols of qualification, the certifications, 0:08:42.950 --> 0:08:47.070 don't enjoy the credibility that they should in our society, 0:08:47.429 --> 0:08:51.290 which is why people are so ready to forge them. 0:08:54.270 --> 0:09:01.109 And I think that there was a, perhaps a realization 0:09:01.150 --> 0:09:04.250 that perhaps we need to come closer to why indeed 0:09:04.330 --> 0:09:09.250 we have a need to have qualifications, whether it is 0:09:09.710 --> 0:09:16.390 academic qualifications, whether it is Migratory qualifications. Whether it is 0:09:16.470 --> 0:09:25.650 because they are there to enhance rather than become a barrier. 0:09:27.330 --> 0:09:27.570 True. 0:09:29.740 --> 0:09:32.780 But I think that there's a real conversation to be 0:09:32.860 --> 0:09:37.580 had about how do we deal with the psychological scars 0:09:39.660 --> 0:09:47.040 that come from a history of being kept out, of being, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:59.330 of creating exclusivity at the expense of humanity, such that 0:09:59.350 --> 0:10:06.760 the association With qualification. Is not the correct one. Such that. 0:10:07.300 --> 0:10:12.960 Qualification is understood. To be an elitism. I am better 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.100 than you. Because I have this. Do you see what 0:10:17.140 --> 0:10:17.320 I mean? 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:17.660 Yeah. 0:10:19.380 --> 0:10:22.320 And so for those that understand themselves to be the 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:28.420 victims of that discrimination, their goal is to break that 0:10:28.490 --> 0:10:33.370 thing that oppresses them in that way. And that is 0:10:33.390 --> 0:10:45.150 a historical thing. If a border fence does not enhance 0:10:45.330 --> 0:10:49.560 my nationhood, but keeps me away from people that are 0:10:49.580 --> 0:10:54.170 my relatives and my people. I don't respect that border. 0:10:56.350 --> 0:10:59.550 And so my work will be to undermine it. But 0:10:59.630 --> 0:11:04.610 if the understanding is slightly different, it is to say 0:11:04.670 --> 0:11:10.640 that there is an understanding here of an agreement between 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:21.439 two nations, two peoples, that we are going to develop economies, nations, 0:11:23.780 --> 0:11:28.360 that are going to enhance our identity, then maybe there's 0:11:28.380 --> 0:11:30.679 going to be a different approach to these things. But 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:36.980 as long as I understand it as a barrier to 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:43.120 contacting those that are mine, my relationship with that border 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.340 is not going to be right. For as long as 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:51.020 I understand a piece of paper that is understood to 0:11:51.059 --> 0:11:53.880 be a certification of some sort as a barrier for 0:11:55.320 --> 0:12:00.849 me to achieve a certain level of my own humanity, 0:12:01.750 --> 0:12:04.230 my relationship with that barrier is not going to be 0:12:04.270 --> 0:12:09.130 a good one. Sure. My sense is that there are 0:12:09.740 --> 0:12:14.660 environments in the world that have developed a better understanding 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:21.410 of that social contract. than others. I'd be interested to 0:12:21.450 --> 0:12:25.050 hear your thoughts about that, and then of course the 0:12:25.309 --> 0:12:29.589 conversation with Keshni, the entrepreneur from Kattu in the Northern Cape. 0:12:30.270 --> 0:12:33.429 Interesting young man indeed. The idea there was to simply 0:12:33.490 --> 0:12:36.820 say that start, man. Start where you are, just start. 0:12:38.780 --> 0:12:44.280 You may be surprised by what is revealed by that process. 0:12:47.150 --> 0:12:49.270 Looking forward to all of your calls. I'm suggesting to 0:12:49.309 --> 0:12:52.550 you that there is an unraveling, there is a fallout 0:12:52.620 --> 0:12:55.819 in the political space following the LGE, the local government 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:02.720 elections of 2026 last week. Former President Thabo Mbeki has 0:13:02.780 --> 0:13:06.570 become part of the conversation, given the conversation he had 0:13:06.650 --> 0:13:14.459 with Dr. Mbuiseni Ngozi on his podcast, where he I 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.770 suppose diplomatically suggested that the ANC leadership needs to resign, 0:13:19.910 --> 0:13:22.950 including that of President Sulaimaposa. There are people that are 0:13:22.970 --> 0:13:27.429 suggesting that President Sulaimaposa actually offered to resign last week, Friday. 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:32.939 But we are also told that when he was asked 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.680 the question, he denied it together with Figile Mbalula, the 0:13:38.260 --> 0:13:45.450 Secretary General of the ANC. The leader of the Economic 0:13:45.490 --> 0:13:51.429 Freedom Fighters, has sent a letter of, a lawyer's letter 0:13:51.490 --> 0:13:56.270 to the mayoral candidate for Johannesburg under the DA banner, 0:13:56.610 --> 0:14:01.449 Helen Ziller. And she has been asked whether or not 0:14:01.490 --> 0:14:06.579 she would apologize for saying that at some point Herman Mashaba, 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:13.820 who was the DA's mayoral Not candidate. In fact, he 0:14:13.860 --> 0:14:17.380 was a mayor at the time under the banner of DA, 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.380 was in fact the EFF's mayor. And there's a demand 0:14:23.420 --> 0:14:27.380 for an apology for that. She has come out to say, no, 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:35.220 I won't. I won't apologize. Now, I remember personally hearing 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:39.900 at a point in time, one of the leaders said, 0:14:40.690 --> 0:14:42.670 And I think it was Julius Malema who said, I 0:14:42.690 --> 0:14:50.230 know Herman is our mayor. I remember that. And I 0:14:51.590 --> 0:14:55.050 hear that there is reference to the fact that, and 0:14:55.090 --> 0:14:58.250 this is by Helen Zillert who said, no, in fact, 0:14:58.650 --> 0:15:03.070 the appointment of Shadrach Sabir as head of security in 0:15:03.210 --> 0:15:06.650 the city of Twane, head of, yeah, I think police 0:15:06.670 --> 0:15:09.630 intelligence in the city of Twane, I mean of Johannesburg, sorry, 0:15:10.780 --> 0:15:17.630 was at the behest of Julius Malema. And in wanting 0:15:17.750 --> 0:15:21.790 to manage that relationship between the DA and the EFF 0:15:21.950 --> 0:15:26.930 at the time, the suggestion by Helen Ziller is that 0:15:26.950 --> 0:15:35.730 Herman Mashaba acquiesced and employed Shadrack Sabir, who is currently 0:15:35.750 --> 0:15:40.900 a very embattled man. I'd be interested to take your 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:48.010 calls around those issues straight after this. Call us on 011-883-0702. 0:15:48.070 --> 0:15:52.390 Good evening, good evening, Mr. 0:15:52.630 --> 0:15:53.290 Massano. 0:15:55.450 --> 0:15:57.630 I would love to. 0:15:57.930 --> 0:16:07.880 Throw a point or two to The situation that we 0:16:07.940 --> 0:16:16.330 are faced with is South Africans and Africans at large. People, 0:16:16.350 --> 0:16:21.070 we need to remember that this. 0:16:19.670 --> 0:16:23.530 Is Renaissance time. It's time for us as Africans to 0:16:23.590 --> 0:16:30.190 find our footing and understand that we have to unshackle 0:16:30.250 --> 0:16:36.730 ourselves from the shackles of imperialism and colonialism in this 0:16:36.970 --> 0:16:46.420 Armageddon's name. And so it's very imperative to find our 0:16:46.540 --> 0:16:54.040 track and link to our family manuscripts and to our 0:16:54.280 --> 0:17:01.530 bloodlines manuscripts that link us to the future, which is now, 0:17:02.230 --> 0:17:08.140 which is Yesterday, for us to be able to forge 0:17:08.220 --> 0:17:11.419 to tomorrow. I thank you, sir. 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.140 Go straight to the lines. Lance is in Weinberg. 0:17:16.180 --> 0:17:16.679 Hi, Lance. 0:17:17.859 --> 0:17:18.640 Good evening, sir. 0:17:18.660 --> 0:17:20.530 How are you? I'm very well, thank you, Lance. 0:17:21.410 --> 0:17:27.290 I'm fine, thank you. So I once stayed in this 0:17:28.090 --> 0:17:30.869 flat called my home apartment in Weinberg. 0:17:32.650 --> 0:17:32.820 Yeah. 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:38.149 So we approximately did not have electricity for seven weeks. 0:17:40.230 --> 0:17:45.860 So you can understand how frustrated the people were. But 0:17:45.890 --> 0:17:52.200 in the meantime, the property was actually supplying electricity of 0:17:52.380 --> 0:17:56.420 a generator to a workshop, which actually is on the 0:17:56.580 --> 0:18:02.409 other side of the property. But then the tenants were 0:18:02.590 --> 0:18:09.570 very upset and whatever. But then we drew up a 0:18:09.650 --> 0:18:13.680 memorandum and, of course, we signed up, lots of tenants 0:18:13.700 --> 0:18:18.959 signed up about it, which was in requesting that the 0:18:19.020 --> 0:18:24.880 tenants should be ahead with their requests. For example, like 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.540 them knowing how much the pay for the lift was 0:18:29.390 --> 0:18:38.159 them knowing how much the agents would reduce from the 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.639 bill of the rental. Because, I mean, the appliances of 0:18:43.660 --> 0:18:48.380 the people were ruined and, of course, food was ruined, whatever. 0:18:49.300 --> 0:18:53.480 But then the agents actually did not even show up 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:59.890 at the frontal part of the uh, uh, agents building. 0:19:00.070 --> 0:19:03.070 So they just spoke to the five guys who are 0:19:03.109 --> 0:19:07.730 the tenants. They actually called the four armed, um, cars 0:19:07.770 --> 0:19:10.490 for them. So we actually look, we do not even 0:19:10.530 --> 0:19:13.370 know how the agents look like, but we just hear 0:19:13.430 --> 0:19:19.800 from them from the emails, uh, demanding rental in full 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.210 and absolutely the property is actually not even being maintained 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:32.460 at all. And, um, It's basically the building is decaying. 0:19:33.859 --> 0:19:37.159 And also, of course, there's an extortion that is actually 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:42.109 going on between the agent and between the tenants. So 0:19:42.150 --> 0:19:45.350 the tenants absolutely do not know what to do because, 0:19:45.369 --> 0:19:47.609 I mean, they are paying for a lift, which is 0:19:47.670 --> 0:19:51.740 actually not even working. That's one of the things. and 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.840 that's in Weinberg my home apartment. 0:19:57.980 --> 0:20:06.419 So are you looking for legal assistance I'm not sure 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.419 what I can do is there something you think I 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:09.860 could do. 0:20:12.460 --> 0:20:15.780 I don't know, sir. I don't know, sir, but I 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.460 just wanted our voices to be heard. 0:20:18.260 --> 0:20:21.150 Because you just wanted to put it out there. 0:20:21.930 --> 0:20:22.590 Yes, sir. 0:20:22.790 --> 0:20:25.330 And these are people who are just actually pulling the 0:20:25.390 --> 0:20:28.250 tenants out there and their requests are not being heard 0:20:28.290 --> 0:20:31.090 at all. But then at the end of the day, 0:20:31.170 --> 0:20:35.530 they expect them to actually pay for rental, which is 0:20:35.590 --> 0:20:39.080 actually in full rental. You know, I mean, like, for example, 0:20:39.100 --> 0:20:43.310 they were in being enforced Wi-Fi. And then on the 0:20:43.390 --> 0:20:47.570 other hand, they were paying for DSTV. And then, of course, 0:20:47.630 --> 0:20:51.850 the DSTV also got disrupted. And then they are expected 0:20:51.890 --> 0:20:53.209 to actually pay for both. 0:20:53.430 --> 0:20:58.730 So at the moment, you guys are not paying? 0:20:59.050 --> 0:21:02.730 So basically, there's a party which came through. And then 0:21:02.890 --> 0:21:07.409 they wanted to actually assist the tenants. But unfortunately, it 0:21:07.510 --> 0:21:12.840 seems that Whenever they feel like they're getting somewhere, it 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.720 feels like there's another wall that they're hitting into. 0:21:17.740 --> 0:21:23.150 But in general terms, there is a dispute, I suppose. 0:21:23.170 --> 0:21:29.310 The dispute is characterized by the tenants feeling like they 0:21:29.430 --> 0:21:32.580 are not getting value for money, so they're not paying. Exactly, sir. 0:21:32.590 --> 0:21:32.750 Hold on. 0:21:32.770 --> 0:21:34.010 And the landlord is saying. 0:21:34.030 --> 0:21:34.930 You've got to pay. 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:40.140 Yes, sir. 0:21:40.540 --> 0:21:44.380 All right. So it's a dispute. Surely that means that 0:21:44.460 --> 0:21:48.960 you guys need to have some sort of mediation or 0:21:49.770 --> 0:21:52.330 it needs to go to court. Would that not be 0:21:52.350 --> 0:21:55.629 the next level? 0:21:57.130 --> 0:21:57.770 Yes, sir. 0:21:57.850 --> 0:22:00.070 That would be the next level. But I think the 0:22:00.150 --> 0:22:06.250 tenants are more scared because these I suppose I've heard 0:22:06.510 --> 0:22:12.270 that this property is actually owned by Jews. So basically, 0:22:12.630 --> 0:22:18.650 the tenants absolutely, they work hard, they're working people, and whatsoever. 0:22:18.770 --> 0:22:20.560 What's that got to do with anything, Lance? I mean, 0:22:21.130 --> 0:22:23.899 the fact that it's owned by Jews or diabetes or 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:30.200 whatever the case may be, if there is a dispute 0:22:31.180 --> 0:22:35.280 on the basis of the idea that the amenities of 0:22:35.330 --> 0:22:37.710 that building are not correct, or, and by the way, 0:22:37.740 --> 0:22:40.030 I'm only hearing your side of the story, right? Because 0:22:40.210 --> 0:22:43.129 I imagine that the tenant has probably got a version 0:22:43.170 --> 0:22:46.790 of their own. It's clearly a dispute here. It's a 0:22:46.810 --> 0:22:52.410 commercial dispute that you guys need to resolve somehow. And 0:22:52.530 --> 0:22:58.030 you can either do it by some sort of mediation process, 0:22:58.230 --> 0:22:59.330 or you can go to the courts. 0:23:03.100 --> 0:23:08.340 Yes, we could, but then which court would the tenants 0:23:08.460 --> 0:23:10.000 be guided to go to, sir? 0:23:10.020 --> 0:23:13.320 Well, I'm not a lawyer, but what I'm trying to 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:19.199 say is that there are ways of dealing with disputes 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.720 in a commercial space. I am a tenant. I feel 0:23:23.780 --> 0:23:26.420 like I am not getting value for money because this 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:28.830 building isn't right, the lift isn't working, and I'm paying 0:23:28.869 --> 0:23:30.590 for it, right? 0:23:30.609 --> 0:23:30.810 Yes, sir. 0:23:32.830 --> 0:23:41.020 And the landlord may feel that, no, no, but you 0:23:41.060 --> 0:23:43.879 people aren't paying, and that's why I can't pay for 0:23:43.910 --> 0:23:50.940 the lift. So it becomes a vicious circle. I think 0:23:50.980 --> 0:23:53.700 there's a thing called the tribunal court that you can 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:57.770 go to. But this sounds to me like it's a, 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:04.060 situation that requires some sort of resolution through mediation or 0:24:04.100 --> 0:24:07.740 through litigation. And I think that that's what you need 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:12.639 to do. The ethnicity of the owner of the building 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:20.740 shouldn't come into question. Lance in Weinberg, thanks very much 0:24:20.790 --> 0:24:23.189 for your call. Much appreciated. Joe's in Goswami Natal. 0:24:23.230 --> 0:24:23.530 Hi. 0:24:24.350 --> 0:24:26.450 Hi, good evening. 0:24:26.530 --> 0:24:27.590 Yeah, go ahead, Joe. 0:24:28.540 --> 0:24:34.119 Yeah, I think you alluded to it, Lance. You get 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:39.920 a rental tribunal, and that's not like a costly legal process. 0:24:41.010 --> 0:24:48.330 You go through the municipality and to those channels. And 0:24:48.810 --> 0:24:51.690 so there is a rental tribunal that sort of mediates 0:24:51.859 --> 0:24:55.540 these disputes. You know, tenants don't get their value for 0:24:55.580 --> 0:25:00.340 money and being provided a shoddy service or whatever. Yeah, 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:02.800 maybe he needs to follow those channels. And it's a 0:25:02.820 --> 0:25:07.630 less costly process than hiring attorneys and things. 0:25:07.830 --> 0:25:09.030 Yeah, yeah. 0:25:09.350 --> 0:25:10.429 Yeah. Okay. 0:25:10.930 --> 0:25:14.939 So, you know, what I wanted to discuss is, you know, 0:25:15.690 --> 0:25:21.129 I previously discussed the Gini coefficient, which is the inequality 0:25:21.190 --> 0:25:24.000 gap in South Africa, which is one of the highest 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:27.220 in the world. It means the income gap between the 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.280 rich and the poor. And, you know, that's widening. The 0:25:31.340 --> 0:25:34.700 rich continue to get richer and the poor get poorer. 0:25:35.700 --> 0:25:38.800 And so what's the trend, you know? And you'll see 0:25:38.820 --> 0:25:43.840 it like overseas, especially, for example, in the U.S.A., those 0:25:43.900 --> 0:25:49.600 political parties that get better funded, you know, they have 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:52.790 an edge. So they, you know, perform better and sort 0:25:52.830 --> 0:25:57.190 of invest in crude terms, get an upper hand, you know, 0:25:58.170 --> 0:26:00.910 because of the funding. And then, you know, one needs 0:26:00.950 --> 0:26:03.830 to check, you know, they say follow the money. Who 0:26:03.890 --> 0:26:08.169 is funding? Because sometimes the funders, you know, the other cliches, 0:26:08.580 --> 0:26:12.420 you know, he who pays the piper calls the tune. So, 0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:20.179 you know, and that rock has set in. And, you know, 0:26:20.420 --> 0:26:22.869 there needs to be some leveling of the playing field. 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.370 I don't know, what's your thought? Like, how do you 0:26:26.490 --> 0:26:35.670 think this inequality gap, you know, can be reduced or addressed? Okay, 0:26:35.690 --> 0:26:37.590 I've got some ideas, but I'd like to hear from you. 0:26:37.630 --> 0:26:40.850 So let's engage in a discussion on this. 0:26:42.990 --> 0:26:48.790 I don't know what the premise, what the idea is 0:26:48.910 --> 0:26:57.460 behind the measuring of inequality in any society. Is it 0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:04.340 to do away with inequality completely? You know, I've been 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:07.159 hearing about the junior coefficient for many years, and I 0:27:07.900 --> 0:27:11.790 suppose my question has always been to say, What is 0:27:11.830 --> 0:27:14.770 the premise? Are we saying that there should not be 0:27:14.890 --> 0:27:17.369 any inequality? Like where? 0:27:17.780 --> 0:27:22.260 No, not necessarily. But where there's a huge discrepancy. You know, 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:24.280 I say they measure this. 0:27:24.420 --> 0:27:27.740 So it's not that there's an inequality. It's the size 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:29.140 of the inequality that's the issue. 0:27:29.380 --> 0:27:34.890 Yes. As in South Africa, I think between 2024, 2025, 0:27:34.890 --> 0:27:36.350 had the highest coefficient. 0:27:36.450 --> 0:27:37.830 And what is the acceptable sort of. 0:27:42.350 --> 0:27:46.440 Inequality levels that we are trying to perhaps get to? 0:27:47.540 --> 0:27:50.179 Around as low as possible, but at least below 50 0:27:50.180 --> 0:27:53.480 or something. 0:27:51.930 --> 0:27:55.250 At that level. And is that the stated sort of 0:27:55.330 --> 0:27:58.970 goal to say that we want to get below 50? 0:27:59.660 --> 0:28:02.180 Well, I mean, there has to be, you know, a 0:28:02.220 --> 0:28:04.000 leveling of the playing field. 0:28:04.740 --> 0:28:07.330 What does that mean? Does that mean that we want 0:28:07.350 --> 0:28:10.690 to get to a place where there is no inequality 0:28:10.750 --> 0:28:14.970 at all? Or do we want to accept some level 0:28:14.990 --> 0:28:18.130 of inequality? And if we are going to accept some 0:28:18.250 --> 0:28:22.020 level of inequality, how much is that acceptable level of inequality? 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:27.400 Well, to a level that, you know, the citizens are 0:28:27.540 --> 0:28:34.070 kind of not obsessed and, you know, deprived of basic services. 0:28:34.270 --> 0:28:35.430 And is that quantifiable? 0:28:37.220 --> 0:28:40.380 Yeah, it is quantifiable. I mean, it's quite a complex 0:28:40.460 --> 0:28:43.460 measurement of, you know, those Gini coefficients. 0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:44.860 So here's my contribution. 0:28:45.580 --> 0:28:45.800 Yeah. 0:28:48.630 --> 0:28:54.290 Until and unless we are clear as to what exactly 0:28:54.330 --> 0:28:58.960 we want out of this, pointing out the problem alone 0:28:59.020 --> 0:29:04.960 is not solving the problem. Yeah. So what I'm saying 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:08.100 to you, Joe, and I'm only responding because you asked 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:14.030 me to respond, right? Mm-hmm. I'm not sure how much 0:29:14.090 --> 0:29:19.670 it helps when we have narratives in the world that 0:29:19.790 --> 0:29:24.690 point to a problem that said, this is a problem. Without... 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:30.090 actually telling us what is the desired solution because for 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:34.550 me to point to the problem alone and not come 0:29:34.570 --> 0:29:37.410 with a solution is to exacerbate the problem. 0:29:37.170 --> 0:29:41.430 So yeah and I just want to hear your thoughts. 0:29:41.690 --> 0:29:42.730 I've got my thoughts. 0:29:42.990 --> 0:29:43.170 Sure. 0:29:43.210 --> 0:29:47.700 For example, like the tender system. And this is where... Okay, 0:29:47.740 --> 0:29:48.740 have we moved from. 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:51.800 The Gini coefficient? Yeah. 0:29:51.920 --> 0:29:54.219 No, no, but I mean, it's all related. So I'm 0:29:54.240 --> 0:30:00.550 just giving my thoughts how we can reduce that gap. Firstly, like, 0:30:00.570 --> 0:30:05.130 you know, the tender-preneur system, it's just a few elites, 0:30:05.650 --> 0:30:10.150 you know, enrich themselves, okay, for the starters. So that 0:30:10.290 --> 0:30:12.570 needs to be, you know, rid of. Because what happens, 0:30:12.670 --> 0:30:18.010 big business, they buy off politicians. And, you know, and 0:30:18.190 --> 0:30:21.290 you see it in many countries, especially in the Western world. 0:30:22.090 --> 0:30:27.130 That's what, like, sort of prevails. And the other issue is, like, 0:30:27.150 --> 0:30:30.660 for example, high interest rates. you've got this micro lending, 0:30:31.810 --> 0:30:34.850 you know, with high usury rates, where people, the furthest 0:30:34.890 --> 0:30:38.050 people get ripped off the most. So that needs to 0:30:38.090 --> 0:30:41.130 be like done away with, and interest rates need to 0:30:41.150 --> 0:30:42.590 be reduced because people are. 0:30:42.610 --> 0:30:44.290 So we need to get rid of the tender system? 0:30:45.570 --> 0:30:45.850 Yes. 0:30:46.690 --> 0:30:46.850 Yeah. 0:30:46.870 --> 0:30:46.989 Okay. 0:30:47.330 --> 0:30:51.210 Well, I would say it's contingent upon, you know, checks 0:30:51.270 --> 0:30:55.870 and balances that, you know, it mustn't be replaced by 0:30:55.890 --> 0:31:02.510 a work system. for example, like the municipalities, now with AI, 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:06.850 you can check, you know, like, you know, how at 0:31:07.330 --> 0:31:11.710 local government levels, you know, people are, the municipalities are 0:31:11.730 --> 0:31:16.030 being ripped off, or rather, the rate payers, effectively, and government, 0:31:16.690 --> 0:31:22.400 national government that funds local government. You know, with overpricing, 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.840 I mean, the source of, you know, unnecessary wasteful expenditure 0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.680 that the Auditor General picks up, but nothing is being 0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:36.290 done about it. It just compounds annually instead of getting reduced. 0:31:36.690 --> 0:31:40.230 Sure. So is the problem the problem or is the 0:31:40.270 --> 0:31:42.070 problem not doing anything about the problem? 0:31:43.410 --> 0:31:46.980 The problem is not doing anything about it. Yeah, something 0:31:47.020 --> 0:31:49.240 needs to be done. And then I say again, the 0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:54.470 high interest rates, that this keeps, perpetually keeps the poor indebted. 0:31:55.010 --> 0:31:58.170 And that's how the rich get the upper hand by, 0:31:58.250 --> 0:32:02.670 you know, amassing, you know, fortunes at the expense of 0:32:02.690 --> 0:32:07.190 the poor. So, you know, the government, I say they 0:32:07.210 --> 0:32:12.690 should not, like, privilege the privileged and afford them through 0:32:12.710 --> 0:32:16.700 the banks, higher interest rates. They need to have a cap, 0:32:16.900 --> 0:32:21.850 you know, curb that down. So, you know, and if 0:32:21.870 --> 0:32:25.350 they cut down that, that money instead of going to, 0:32:25.790 --> 0:32:29.810 you know, sort of capitalists and big banks, that will 0:32:29.870 --> 0:32:35.810 go into services and products, which will generate, for example, value-detect. So, 0:32:35.830 --> 0:32:38.490 you know, so there's plenty of measures that can be 0:32:38.530 --> 0:32:41.810 taken to, you know, reduce it in a fair, you know, 0:32:41.830 --> 0:32:42.710 in just right now. 0:32:43.270 --> 0:32:46.870 So the problem is that we're not doing about doing 0:32:46.890 --> 0:32:47.670 anything about the problem. 0:32:47.910 --> 0:32:51.130 Yeah, and if the politicians go, they bought off, they will, 0:32:51.590 --> 0:32:54.270 you know, sort of let the situation perpetuate instead of, 0:32:54.790 --> 0:32:56.950 you know, knowing that these are the problems. I mean, 0:32:57.330 --> 0:33:01.250 as you said, the gene coefficient issue, the inequality gap is, 0:33:01.430 --> 0:33:05.560 you know, highlighted every year, but they're simply just doing 0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:09.060 nothing because they're getting, they're fat cats. They get paid 0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:13.370 well and they don't care a damn about the poor. So, 0:33:13.690 --> 0:33:16.230 you know, I mean, that's sort of the elephant in 0:33:16.310 --> 0:33:17.730