WEBVTT - Consumer Talk: Getting the best out of a kitchen renovation 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.400 Lunch with Pipper Hudson. 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:09.840 And now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola. Wendy back with 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.760 us in studio today, and our main topic of conversation 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.200 is going to be around kitchen refurbishments and some of 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.680 the red flags to look out for things to be 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.919 aware of in terms of how the industry works and 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.120 what is considered fair and not. We will be hearing 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:27.000 from an industry organization that deals with the fallout when 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.840 things go wrong. We also, I hope we'll have time 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.839 to share an update from health authorities cautioning about the 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.479 contents of some of the supplements on the market that 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.440 are being marketed for children that they are raising concern about. 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.280 I'm intrigued to hear that because the supplements that have 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.160 been around since my kids with little children, So why 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.199 all of a sudden the fuss will We'll discuss that 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.000 a little bit later on, and then, of course we 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:50.080 always like to save space for a couple of open 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.560 line questions Wendy before we dive into any of that. Firstly, 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.400 welcome back to studios. And secondly, just to say last 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.240 week's conversation, we promise to follow up on discovery, but 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:02.440 of course the whole Discovery story done and dusted, and 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:05.120 in between almost an overnight. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.520 Yeah, so our John Mason was speaking to the CEO 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.479 Ron Wheelan gon't remember what day it was now last 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:16.440 week and it was two days after that, but in 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.760 the interview was very adamant not going to happen. And 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.720 then they said, we still believe our actions were valid, 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:30.120 but you know, it wasn't our consumers. Our members didn't 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:31.679 feel the same or it wasn't the right thing to 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.199 do for them. And so nobody's going to be paying 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.039 anything with respect to that over pamit except for Discovery 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.200 Health Administrator who's putting the money back in the fund 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.760 so the fund doesn't suffer. The other members don't have 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.120 to feel that they got to pay for mistake. And 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:45.960 that was the end of that. 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:48.480 So all done and dusted. Thanks for that. The one 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.160 thing that isn't yet resolved and Ryan are just sending 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.240 a WHATSAUP have you ever had feedback from Virgin Active Greenpoint? 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:57.960 Not resolved, but feedback received. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.600 Feedback received. There was a big obviously because of the 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.559 fest of season. So I've got feed very lengthy, comprehensive 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.480 feedback from the gym. And then I sent it to 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.920 our complainant who's given me very long, detailed, very much 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.120 she said, she said, And so I just need to 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.520 just sttle it down and get to give Virgin now 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.280 to get their response to that, and then we're ready 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:23.079 to go with it next year. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.080 Okay, So Ryan, next week Wednesday, will that follow up 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.919 will happen? Happen? Thanks for your patients. We just want 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.639 to make sure that we have heard everybody's perspective on 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:33.240 this one, to make sure that what we share is 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.160 fairly presented. So please stand by for more on that 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.400 one next week. For today, though, we are diving into 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.520 the world of kitchen renovations and talk about cold shivers. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.520 I got one when I saw this topic, Wendy, because 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.040 I think it's probably about fifteen years now since I did. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.839 We did a kitchen remodel at home, and I don't 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.920 know if I'm over the trauma yet. It was a 0:02:56.000 --> 0:03:00.040 very expensive process. It was fraught with difficulties and poor communication. 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:01.840 In the end, the job was done well, but it 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:03.799 was a difficult experience. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:04.160 Fraught. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:06.800 Fraud was reading the word I would use. And so 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.200 it's a topic I approached with interest. What made you 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:10.720 want to talk about this issue today. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:17.799 Well, I must be honest, the Kitchen Specialists Association approached 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.960 me because I don't get too many kitchen complaints. But 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.520 over the years when I have, whether the company being 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.160 complained about has been a member of the CASA or not, 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.040 I've always gone to the Association to get their sort 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:36.800 of mediator's view of does the complainant have a valid 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.240 complaint or not. And so I thought, I don't know 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.520 that we've ever spoken on this topic and all the 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:44.440 years we've been doing consumer talk, so. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:45.880 Let's give it a word. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.520 And yes, given that we've got to hold the Region 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:50.640 active story until next. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.520 Week, okay, So just to give some context here, Of course, 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.160 it depends very much on how big a remodel you're doing, 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.720 whether it's a complete replacement or just redoing some of 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.880 the cutbirds or replacing appliances, et cetera. The point is 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.680 that this is a multi faceted kind of referb. There 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.480 are a lot of different contractors involved. 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.040 Technically, a lot of contractors involved, whether they project managed 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.800 by the one supplier or not. There's a lot of 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.599 moving parts, a lot of different suppliers, and a lot 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.880 of questions of perspective and context. So looking at a 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.440 swatch or not a swatch, a sample, a small sample 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.320 of a natural product like granite, as opposed to as 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.080 saying yes, we want that and then you see it 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:37.400 in a huge slab, effect is different. The effect often 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.560 and mostly is different. The same story with anything that 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.800 you're looking at a small scale or in a picture, 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.239 or in somebody else's kitchen, installed in your own particular 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.560 kitchen with its own light perspectives, et cetera. There can 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.720 be a disconnect there and that then creates a dispute. 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.520 And in cases like that, it then becomes okay, did 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.800 this apply give the customer enough of an opportunity to 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.560 see it not just a tiny sample, but see it 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.040 as it was likely to look. Yeah, in those proportions, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.839 et cetera. Is the customer just did they just not 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.640 avail themselves? And now you know they didn't do enough 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.200 to make sure it's what they wanted, and now they unhappy? 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:21.840 Do they have a ride? Most likely know? 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.800 Okay, So some very interesting questions raised here, and it's 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.600 a great pleasure to welcome with us on the line 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.760 this afternoon. Stephanie Forbes, who is the national manager of 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.760 the Kitchen Specialists Association, and if you didn't know that 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.160 they existed, well you do now. And if you are 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.520 thinking of doing any kind of kitchen renovation, the first 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.680 thing to say today is please check that your contractors 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:45.440 are registered with the Kitchen Specialists Association. Stephanie, it's wonderful 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:47.280 to have you on the show today. Welcome to CAP Talk. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.440 Thanks TSA, thanks very much for having me, High Windy 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:50.920 as well. 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:52.120 Hi Stephanie. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.360 Stephanie, First, but before we dive into the kinds of 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.640 disputes that tend to cross your desk, won't you just 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.560 tell us a little bit more about KSA, you are, 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.400 how long you've been in existence, and then the role 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:04.000 that you play. 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.920 Sure, the CAFA is we like to call it rather 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.400 than the big mouthful of Kitchen Specialist Association. We've been 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.920 around since nineteen eighty nine, so we're not spring chickens 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.280 in the industry. We've been doing this for some time. Basically, 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.880 it starts it out as a lot of industry associations 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.400 do small cluster of industry people wanting to make a 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.800 difference in the industry, and over the years it's developed 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.400 into a national association. We have two parts to the 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.800 association one which is obviously an industry park where we 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:38.960 look to educate and improve standards within the industry and 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.880 hold people accountable for how they display themselves, what they do, 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.240 how they look after their staff. And then the other 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.520 side of what we do is consumer orientated, and that 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.720 side of what we do has grown and grown over 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.640 the years tremendously, so much so that several years ago, 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.760 when the CPA came into play, we decided to apply 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:02.719 for registration by Theational Consumer Commission, which we now have, 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.000 so we are certified now on all platforms to handle 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.240 these consumer complaints and do so with sort of proper accreditation. 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:13.640 Okay, thanks so much. As a matter of interest, how 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.600 many associations make up part of your membership, Stephanie. 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.720 So you have about two hundred and fifty companies nationwide 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.360 that are part of the KSA. The interesting thing here 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:28.080 is KSA membership is voluntary, so it's not like belonging 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.720 to something like the NHBRC where it's mandatory. Companies choose 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.560 to join the KSA and be held accountable to us 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.280 by US and abide by our code of ethics and 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.720 code of conduct and allow their clients to come to 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.920 us if they feel that they have a problem. So 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.040 it does speak volumes for those companies that make that choice. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.600 So on that point, Stephanie, I would certainly, just because 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.840 of the work that I do, I would certainly not 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:59.960 consider giving my kitchen job to a company that wasn't 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.040 a member of the KSA. But what would you say 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.320 to those To a company that feels that it's operating 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.320 ethically and professionally, that has chosen for whatever reason not 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.880 to become a member of the KSA, what would you 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.480 say to their issue that you know that's not to 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.160 be construed that they aren't reliable and aren't offering a 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:22.040 quality service. 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.280 Well, under a sense, there are plenty of reputable companies 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.680 out there that have opted or do up to not 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.679 belong to the KSA. Some of them don't meet our requirements, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:35.800 and that does not mean that they are not reputable. 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.800 We do ask that our kitchen manufacturing members have a 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.679 proper showroom facility, and that's to a facilitate that that 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.640 we know that the consumer has seen a standard example 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.080 of workmanship in a commercial setting, and we can hold 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.200 them accountable to that. Unlike elsewhere in the world where 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:58.120 government sets certain standards or minimum standards for the cabinetry industry. 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.000 We don't have that in South Africa, so we use 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.480 the showroom as the mark of the of the quality 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.920 and standard practice that the consumer can see and their home. 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.680 Okay, that's very interesting. So it's that ability to go 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.320 and look at a physical showroom to see an example 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.960 of the work, to see Wendy's already mentioned, for example 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.480 a piece of granite in a larger proportion, or the 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:25.319 woodwork you know, in a full cabinetry finish for example, Stephanie, 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.360 what kind of difference? I mean, that's clearly something that 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.280 you feel is essential for consumers, is it? Because do 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.800 you feel that strongly because there is so much variation 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.319 between a small sample and what it looks like in 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.560 big size. Do you find that that is often a 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.079 place where complaints originate? 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.040 It is, But I think more importantly is that you 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.000 have such a wide spectrum of what kitchen and cabinetry 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.640 companies do because price is a factor, So you'll have 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:57.080 entry level cabinet makers and kitchen companies they have a 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.319 way of producing which retains the cost effectiveness but of 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.880 still stable and good, and then you'll have the higher 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.560 end that obviously go a little bit further when it 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:10.040 comes to production and standard means of manufacturing. So you 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.680 need to compare an apple with an apple and not 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:17.520 be holding someone who's charging fifty thousand round for a 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.720 small kitchen to the standard of someone who's doing the 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.200 highest end kitchens that are casting almost a million round. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.960 So keeping the fair and the judgment standard and equitable 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.520 is one of the important things of having a showroom 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.040 is that we can measure that. And that's one of 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.560 the things that the National Consumer Commission liked about the 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.120 way we work is that they knew that the client 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:42.000 could then see and had a realistic understanding of what 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.440 they might receive, rather than going in an expecting X 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:46.320 and receiving Y. 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:49.840 And we're going to be talking to Stephanie over the 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:51.719 course in the next few minutes about some examples of 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:53.760 the kinds of cases that have been brought to the 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.520 KSA for mediation and intervention and looking at different case 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.000 studies that not only I think provide an important example 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.440 of what can go wrong that you need to be 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.920 mindful of when when embarking on this kind of project, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.520 but also to demonstrate that sometimes blame is allocated on 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.280 both sides Wendy and fairness that applies to every kind 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.600 of consumer dispute. Not all apples in the basket are 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.480 always good or always bad. But the kind of case 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.079 studies we're going to be looking at today quite demonstrate 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.800 sometimes the customer is right in bringing a complaint and 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:26.920 sometimes they're really not. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.520 They're not and you can understand. I mean, if there's 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:34.120 so much money involved, and so if the result is 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:35.760 not what you want, you're going to be wanting to 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.320 push back hard. But the thing is you're not always 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.640 going to have a link to stand on. We've got 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.400 a couple of minutes. I want to ask a question, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:43.199 so we get into that. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:44.640 I think what we're going to do is look at 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.880 the case studies after the eyewitness news break. What did 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:48.520 you want to ask before we got a news I. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.040 Didn't put it in our prenp but it's occurred to 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.079 been as speaking about money, what do you recommend, Stephanie 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.400 with regard to the percentage of deposit that a customer 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.400 should realistically and reasonably be expected to pay? 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.959 How Whendy we have seen that change over the years. 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.520 Traditionally it was always sort of fifty percent, but we 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:13.680 have seen cases of fraud increased tremendously, so we have 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.880 seen a lot of companies that do push that up 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.319 to sixty sometimes seventy five percent. What we do recommend 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.760 and obviously if andy applies, if it is a case 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.200 a member you're dealing with is we have a holding account, 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.560 which is like a plus account, but it's not monitored 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.600 and audited every month, but it's totally separate to the case. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.360 There's funds and there when consumers are nervous about handing 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.400 over large sums, that can negotiate with the CASA members 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.880 to put the funds into the case their holding account 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.200 and then pull draws from that fund those funds to 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.800 pay as on when certain stages are reached, which just 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.680 keeps it a little bit more secure because there's a 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.120 lot of money. But yeah, unfortunately there are now there's 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.160 no sort of definitive set standard for the deposit. It 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.120 normally is at least fifty percent, but we are seeing 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.679 companies push that further and for that because they are 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.040 suffering a lot of non payment. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.319 Yeah, we've seen that in other industries, conditioning all that 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:07.880 kind of thing. It used to be when I first 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:09.920 started in this game, it was fifty percent, no more. 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.080 Each party's got equal risk. But I hear you they 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:14.960 were normal is more like seventy percent. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.679 Now for those who are just joining us, Stephanie as 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:21.040 the national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association, roughly two 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.800 hundred and fifty companies falling under their umbrella. They're a 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:28.760 national voluntary organization that sets codes of ethics and conduct 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:32.520 for the kitchen industry that really helps to mediate in disputes. 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.200 And Stephanie, thanks for your patients. Let's dive into some 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.160 examples of the kinds of disputes that you have had 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:39.880 brought to you in the past, because I think it's 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.439 useful to alert our listeners to the things they need 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.560 to be mindful of that could go wrong. And we 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.360 get it sort of group these in two categories, ones 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.600 in which the consumer was in the wrong and ones 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.959 in which the contractor was in the wrong. Let's start 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.360 with the former category, and Stephanie, you had an example 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.040 of a consumer redoing her bathroom Vanity's who came to 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.040 you with a problem that really, in the end turned 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.359 out to be a case of the consumer not communicating 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:09.720 well enough with their contractor. Won't you tell us what happened. 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.200 Sure, and you said earlier. Communication is key in a 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.840 project like listen. This is a prime example of where 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.800 it can cause major problems. So the client had had 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.960 her vanities designed. She went with the kitchen company, her 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.000 designer to choose what sinks she wanted on her vanity, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.160 and she had chosen with her designer, you know, the 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.200 drop in sinks, so that that actually the hole gets 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.600 cut into the base into the vanity and they drop in, 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.520 and that is what the whole design was based on. 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.040 The measurements were taken so that the vanity would be 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.760 placed accordingly, so that the tap would splash down correctly 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.760 into a drop in basin. But during the manufacturing process, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.480 the client decided that she no longer wanted a drop 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.480 in and she wanted to sit on basin. So she 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.680 went and she changed this. She exchanged the sinks and 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.040 she bought what she wanted, but at no point did 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.480 she inform the kitchen company. So when they came to install, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.600 the vanity was installed. Only then you find now the 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.480 sinks are way too high, it doesn't work, and they 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.360 need to be removed. And of course there are now 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.560 draw holes in her tiles. And she came to us 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.440 saying no, she expected the kitchen company to be responsible 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.920 for the costs of redoing her tiling. And this is 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.960 where we, you know, we have to sit and explain 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.800 to the customer that what they did, in fact was 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.160 do exactly what she had instructed them to do. And 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.560 cabinetry is a bespoke item, so when you sign off 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.800 your drawings with the company, you are signing off that 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.440 this is exactly what you are instructing them to make. 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.960 You are this is the permission you are giving them, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.760 and you are fully in agreement that this is what 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.400 you want. So unfortunately, with when she failed to tell 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.720 them that they that she had changed her choice, they 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.480 were not given opportunities to repurpose that vanity and change 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.880 their specs, which meant that they did no longer great 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.880 didn't carry any risk or cost to do those changes 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.640 and the resulting damage of the droll holes in the times. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.000 Okay, So had the company changed the spec for whatever 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.000 reason and then had to deal that, it would have 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.160 then been on their shoulders to remedy the damage that 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.120 they'll be done because she did not communicate that. So 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.000 there's lesson. Number one is if you decide on changes 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.680 midway through a project. You need to be sure that 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.920 you've discussed those with the contract. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:35.280 To understand the implications of signing, you sign something very specific. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.200 These are the measurements, so you are then liable if 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.480 you don't change them in time. Then you can't say, well, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.920 they must fix the remedy at their cost. That's just 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:45.640 unreasonable to say. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:46.080 I think it's. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.360 Definitely because these things are expensive. People you know, don't 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.080 want to accept that it was on them. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.240 Yeah. Yeah. Another example of a case you dealt with 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.880 was a consumer doing a kitchen island and there was 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.400 an issue around surfacing materials Stiffney. 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.159 Yes. So here the client had gone into showroom and 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.960 had seen a piece of stone that they liked, but 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.040 it was a small piece. It was on a sort 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:15.159 of a desk sized countertop. And you know what we 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.240 find with a lot of stones now is they are 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.320 what we call variegated in pattern and color, which means 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.160 there's a lot of change in variation in the way 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.439 the stone and material looks from one side of a 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.479 large slab to the other. Now, having made a choice 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:36.200 of by only looking at that small sector, this created 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.840 the problem customers should be and normally are encouraged to 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.760 go to the supplier of the material, to their slab 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.840 yard and where they can view a full slab of 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.840 the material. That's where they can see is the color 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.320 and pattern consystem from one end to the other or 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.240 does it change now? In this case, the piece that 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.439 the client had seen was very dark black with a 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.960 little bit of a white sort of veining in it. 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.480 But the large piece of slab, the full slab and 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.600 its entirely actually gradiated from dark from dark black to 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.040 light gray, and the veining became more as it moved 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.080 to the lighter side. So when his island was installed 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.960 with the full slab, he said, yeah, this is not yet. Well, 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:23.920 he said, it's not the material I chose, and did 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.240 not want to accept that this was in fact what 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:31.680 he had selected because he had never seen it in itsy. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:32.760 Was it given the opportunity to go though. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.880 I was going to ask the same question because Stephanie, 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.600 as a layperson, I wouldn't have known that that there 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.760 can be that level of variegation. So I guess a 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.280 lot depends on what you tell the client upfront. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:45.919 And this is why we encourage all our members and 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.639 all edits to train their design staff to make sure 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.879 that that that the consumers advised accordingly. And this is 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.719 why we also encourage strong relationships between designer and the 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.679 stone and surface fabricator and that the client gets to 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.120 talk directly to the stone and surface fabricator rather than 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.679 just purely operating through the kitchen company. Because this is 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.200 how the broken telephone wires happen and you don't get 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:10.120 the good communication. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.520 I could just jump in there quickly. The same thing 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.000 happens with leather furniture. So as you always ask to 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.800 see have an opportunity, tunity to see a larger heart 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.240 or to be sent a picture before they go and 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:26.600 do your bespoke sofa, because people look at a certain 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.520 in the showroom it might be look like this, and 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.840 at the actual heart that they because it's natural product 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.920 and there's different markings and colors and graduations and whatever 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.679 textures even that then that causes a lot of I mean, 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.359 the leather industry, sofa industry has terms of conditions that 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:43.040 you know. 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:43.960 Run reams long. 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:49.080 Because of this, natural products are always an issue uniform. 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.280 Yeah, okay, just before we carry on to our next 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.959 case study, apologies, our WhatsApp line does appear to have 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.600 sort of stuttered again. So if you have sent a 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.160 question or comment by WhatsApp in the last fifteen minutes 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.399 or so, can I ask you please to redirect it 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.120 by email to pip her h at Cape Talk dot 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.160 co dot or you can call in on two one 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.000 four four six five six seven. If you don't want 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:13.920 to come to air, you can just dictate your message 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.600 to my producer Vaccine on the other side and she 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.520 can type it through to me. We are just not 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.359 receiving updated WhatsApps at the moment. We have flagged it 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.120 with our technical team, but apologies. If you have sent 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.600 something that's not being reflected, please do divert to calling 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.160 in or sending an email instead. Stephanie Wendy's just mess 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.439 used the word bespoke, and I think that leads us 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.680