Speaker 1: Lunch with Pipper Hudson.
Speaker 2: And now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola. Wendy back with
Speaker 2: us in studio today, and our main topic of conversation
Speaker 2: is going to be around kitchen refurbishments and some of
Speaker 2: the red flags to look out for things to be
Speaker 2: aware of in terms of how the industry works and
Speaker 2: what is considered fair and not. We will be hearing
Speaker 2: from an industry organization that deals with the fallout when
Speaker 2: things go wrong. We also, I hope we'll have time
Speaker 2: to share an update from health authorities cautioning about the
Speaker 2: contents of some of the supplements on the market that
Speaker 2: are being marketed for children that they are raising concern about.
Speaker 2: I'm intrigued to hear that because the supplements that have
Speaker 2: been around since my kids with little children, So why
Speaker 2: all of a sudden the fuss will We'll discuss that
Speaker 2: a little bit later on, and then, of course we
Speaker 2: always like to save space for a couple of open
Speaker 2: line questions Wendy before we dive into any of that. Firstly,
Speaker 2: welcome back to studios. And secondly, just to say last
Speaker 2: week's conversation, we promise to follow up on discovery, but
Speaker 2: of course the whole Discovery story done and dusted, and
Speaker 2: in between almost an overnight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so our John Mason was speaking to the CEO
Speaker 3: Ron Wheelan gon't remember what day it was now last
Speaker 3: week and it was two days after that, but in
Speaker 3: the interview was very adamant not going to happen. And
Speaker 3: then they said, we still believe our actions were valid,
Speaker 3: but you know, it wasn't our consumers. Our members didn't
Speaker 3: feel the same or it wasn't the right thing to
Speaker 3: do for them. And so nobody's going to be paying
Speaker 3: anything with respect to that over pamit except for Discovery
Speaker 3: Health Administrator who's putting the money back in the fund
Speaker 3: so the fund doesn't suffer. The other members don't have
Speaker 3: to feel that they got to pay for mistake. And
Speaker 3: that was the end of that.
Speaker 2: So all done and dusted. Thanks for that. The one
Speaker 2: thing that isn't yet resolved and Ryan are just sending
Speaker 2: a WHATSAUP have you ever had feedback from Virgin Active Greenpoint?
Speaker 2: Not resolved, but feedback received.
Speaker 3: Feedback received. There was a big obviously because of the
Speaker 3: fest of season. So I've got feed very lengthy, comprehensive
Speaker 3: feedback from the gym. And then I sent it to
Speaker 3: our complainant who's given me very long, detailed, very much
Speaker 3: she said, she said, And so I just need to
Speaker 3: just sttle it down and get to give Virgin now
Speaker 3: to get their response to that, and then we're ready
Speaker 3: to go with it next year.
Speaker 2: Okay, So Ryan, next week Wednesday, will that follow up
Speaker 2: will happen? Happen? Thanks for your patients. We just want
Speaker 2: to make sure that we have heard everybody's perspective on
Speaker 2: this one, to make sure that what we share is
Speaker 2: fairly presented. So please stand by for more on that
Speaker 2: one next week. For today, though, we are diving into
Speaker 2: the world of kitchen renovations and talk about cold shivers.
Speaker 2: I got one when I saw this topic, Wendy, because
Speaker 2: I think it's probably about fifteen years now since I did.
Speaker 2: We did a kitchen remodel at home, and I don't
Speaker 2: know if I'm over the trauma yet. It was a
Speaker 2: very expensive process. It was fraught with difficulties and poor communication.
Speaker 2: In the end, the job was done well, but it
Speaker 2: was a difficult experience.
Speaker 3: Fraught.
Speaker 2: Fraud was reading the word I would use. And so
Speaker 2: it's a topic I approached with interest. What made you
Speaker 2: want to talk about this issue today.
Speaker 3: Well, I must be honest, the Kitchen Specialists Association approached
Speaker 3: me because I don't get too many kitchen complaints. But
Speaker 3: over the years when I have, whether the company being
Speaker 3: complained about has been a member of the CASA or not,
Speaker 3: I've always gone to the Association to get their sort
Speaker 3: of mediator's view of does the complainant have a valid
Speaker 3: complaint or not. And so I thought, I don't know
Speaker 3: that we've ever spoken on this topic and all the
Speaker 3: years we've been doing consumer talk, so.
Speaker 2: Let's give it a word.
Speaker 3: And yes, given that we've got to hold the Region
Speaker 3: active story until next.
Speaker 2: Week, okay, So just to give some context here, Of course,
Speaker 2: it depends very much on how big a remodel you're doing,
Speaker 2: whether it's a complete replacement or just redoing some of
Speaker 2: the cutbirds or replacing appliances, et cetera. The point is
Speaker 2: that this is a multi faceted kind of referb. There
Speaker 2: are a lot of different contractors involved.
Speaker 3: Technically, a lot of contractors involved, whether they project managed
Speaker 3: by the one supplier or not. There's a lot of
Speaker 3: moving parts, a lot of different suppliers, and a lot
Speaker 3: of questions of perspective and context. So looking at a
Speaker 3: swatch or not a swatch, a sample, a small sample
Speaker 3: of a natural product like granite, as opposed to as
Speaker 3: saying yes, we want that and then you see it
Speaker 3: in a huge slab, effect is different. The effect often
Speaker 3: and mostly is different. The same story with anything that
Speaker 3: you're looking at a small scale or in a picture,
Speaker 3: or in somebody else's kitchen, installed in your own particular
Speaker 3: kitchen with its own light perspectives, et cetera. There can
Speaker 3: be a disconnect there and that then creates a dispute.
Speaker 3: And in cases like that, it then becomes okay, did
Speaker 3: this apply give the customer enough of an opportunity to
Speaker 3: see it not just a tiny sample, but see it
Speaker 3: as it was likely to look. Yeah, in those proportions,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Is the customer just did they just not
Speaker 3: avail themselves? And now you know they didn't do enough
Speaker 3: to make sure it's what they wanted, and now they unhappy?
Speaker 3: Do they have a ride? Most likely know?
Speaker 2: Okay, So some very interesting questions raised here, and it's
Speaker 2: a great pleasure to welcome with us on the line
Speaker 2: this afternoon. Stephanie Forbes, who is the national manager of
Speaker 2: the Kitchen Specialists Association, and if you didn't know that
Speaker 2: they existed, well you do now. And if you are
Speaker 2: thinking of doing any kind of kitchen renovation, the first
Speaker 2: thing to say today is please check that your contractors
Speaker 2: are registered with the Kitchen Specialists Association. Stephanie, it's wonderful
Speaker 2: to have you on the show today. Welcome to CAP Talk.
Speaker 1: Thanks TSA, thanks very much for having me, High Windy
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: Hi Stephanie.
Speaker 2: Stephanie, First, but before we dive into the kinds of
Speaker 2: disputes that tend to cross your desk, won't you just
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit more about KSA, you are,
Speaker 2: how long you've been in existence, and then the role
Speaker 2: that you play.
Speaker 1: Sure, the CAFA is we like to call it rather
Speaker 1: than the big mouthful of Kitchen Specialist Association. We've been
Speaker 1: around since nineteen eighty nine, so we're not spring chickens
Speaker 1: in the industry. We've been doing this for some time. Basically,
Speaker 1: it starts it out as a lot of industry associations
Speaker 1: do small cluster of industry people wanting to make a
Speaker 1: difference in the industry, and over the years it's developed
Speaker 1: into a national association. We have two parts to the
Speaker 1: association one which is obviously an industry park where we
Speaker 1: look to educate and improve standards within the industry and
Speaker 1: hold people accountable for how they display themselves, what they do,
Speaker 1: how they look after their staff. And then the other
Speaker 1: side of what we do is consumer orientated, and that
Speaker 1: side of what we do has grown and grown over
Speaker 1: the years tremendously, so much so that several years ago,
Speaker 1: when the CPA came into play, we decided to apply
Speaker 1: for registration by Theational Consumer Commission, which we now have,
Speaker 1: so we are certified now on all platforms to handle
Speaker 1: these consumer complaints and do so with sort of proper accreditation.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks so much. As a matter of interest, how
Speaker 2: many associations make up part of your membership, Stephanie.
Speaker 1: So you have about two hundred and fifty companies nationwide
Speaker 1: that are part of the KSA. The interesting thing here
Speaker 1: is KSA membership is voluntary, so it's not like belonging
Speaker 1: to something like the NHBRC where it's mandatory. Companies choose
Speaker 1: to join the KSA and be held accountable to us
Speaker 1: by US and abide by our code of ethics and
Speaker 1: code of conduct and allow their clients to come to
Speaker 1: us if they feel that they have a problem. So
Speaker 1: it does speak volumes for those companies that make that choice.
Speaker 3: So on that point, Stephanie, I would certainly, just because
Speaker 3: of the work that I do, I would certainly not
Speaker 3: consider giving my kitchen job to a company that wasn't
Speaker 3: a member of the KSA. But what would you say
Speaker 3: to those To a company that feels that it's operating
Speaker 3: ethically and professionally, that has chosen for whatever reason not
Speaker 3: to become a member of the KSA, what would you
Speaker 3: say to their issue that you know that's not to
Speaker 3: be construed that they aren't reliable and aren't offering a
Speaker 3: quality service.
Speaker 1: Well, under a sense, there are plenty of reputable companies
Speaker 1: out there that have opted or do up to not
Speaker 1: belong to the KSA. Some of them don't meet our requirements,
Speaker 1: and that does not mean that they are not reputable.
Speaker 1: We do ask that our kitchen manufacturing members have a
Speaker 1: proper showroom facility, and that's to a facilitate that that
Speaker 1: we know that the consumer has seen a standard example
Speaker 1: of workmanship in a commercial setting, and we can hold
Speaker 1: them accountable to that. Unlike elsewhere in the world where
Speaker 1: government sets certain standards or minimum standards for the cabinetry industry.
Speaker 1: We don't have that in South Africa, so we use
Speaker 1: the showroom as the mark of the of the quality
Speaker 1: and standard practice that the consumer can see and their home.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's very interesting. So it's that ability to go
Speaker 2: and look at a physical showroom to see an example
Speaker 2: of the work, to see Wendy's already mentioned, for example
Speaker 2: a piece of granite in a larger proportion, or the
Speaker 2: woodwork you know, in a full cabinetry finish for example, Stephanie,
Speaker 2: what kind of difference? I mean, that's clearly something that
Speaker 2: you feel is essential for consumers, is it? Because do
Speaker 2: you feel that strongly because there is so much variation
Speaker 2: between a small sample and what it looks like in
Speaker 2: big size. Do you find that that is often a
Speaker 2: place where complaints originate?
Speaker 1: It is, But I think more importantly is that you
Speaker 1: have such a wide spectrum of what kitchen and cabinetry
Speaker 1: companies do because price is a factor, So you'll have
Speaker 1: entry level cabinet makers and kitchen companies they have a
Speaker 1: way of producing which retains the cost effectiveness but of
Speaker 1: still stable and good, and then you'll have the higher
Speaker 1: end that obviously go a little bit further when it
Speaker 1: comes to production and standard means of manufacturing. So you
Speaker 1: need to compare an apple with an apple and not
Speaker 1: be holding someone who's charging fifty thousand round for a
Speaker 1: small kitchen to the standard of someone who's doing the
Speaker 1: highest end kitchens that are casting almost a million round.
Speaker 1: So keeping the fair and the judgment standard and equitable
Speaker 1: is one of the important things of having a showroom
Speaker 1: is that we can measure that. And that's one of
Speaker 1: the things that the National Consumer Commission liked about the
Speaker 1: way we work is that they knew that the client
Speaker 1: could then see and had a realistic understanding of what
Speaker 1: they might receive, rather than going in an expecting X
Speaker 1: and receiving Y.
Speaker 2: And we're going to be talking to Stephanie over the
Speaker 2: course in the next few minutes about some examples of
Speaker 2: the kinds of cases that have been brought to the
Speaker 2: KSA for mediation and intervention and looking at different case
Speaker 2: studies that not only I think provide an important example
Speaker 2: of what can go wrong that you need to be
Speaker 2: mindful of when when embarking on this kind of project,
Speaker 2: but also to demonstrate that sometimes blame is allocated on
Speaker 2: both sides Wendy and fairness that applies to every kind
Speaker 2: of consumer dispute. Not all apples in the basket are
Speaker 2: always good or always bad. But the kind of case
Speaker 2: studies we're going to be looking at today quite demonstrate
Speaker 2: sometimes the customer is right in bringing a complaint and
Speaker 2: sometimes they're really not.
Speaker 3: They're not and you can understand. I mean, if there's
Speaker 3: so much money involved, and so if the result is
Speaker 3: not what you want, you're going to be wanting to
Speaker 3: push back hard. But the thing is you're not always
Speaker 3: going to have a link to stand on. We've got
Speaker 3: a couple of minutes. I want to ask a question,
Speaker 3: so we get into that.
Speaker 2: I think what we're going to do is look at
Speaker 2: the case studies after the eyewitness news break. What did
Speaker 2: you want to ask before we got a news I.
Speaker 3: Didn't put it in our prenp but it's occurred to
Speaker 3: been as speaking about money, what do you recommend, Stephanie
Speaker 3: with regard to the percentage of deposit that a customer
Speaker 3: should realistically and reasonably be expected to pay?
Speaker 1: How Whendy we have seen that change over the years.
Speaker 1: Traditionally it was always sort of fifty percent, but we
Speaker 1: have seen cases of fraud increased tremendously, so we have
Speaker 1: seen a lot of companies that do push that up
Speaker 1: to sixty sometimes seventy five percent. What we do recommend
Speaker 1: and obviously if andy applies, if it is a case
Speaker 1: a member you're dealing with is we have a holding account,
Speaker 1: which is like a plus account, but it's not monitored
Speaker 1: and audited every month, but it's totally separate to the case.
Speaker 1: There's funds and there when consumers are nervous about handing
Speaker 1: over large sums, that can negotiate with the CASA members
Speaker 1: to put the funds into the case their holding account
Speaker 1: and then pull draws from that fund those funds to
Speaker 1: pay as on when certain stages are reached, which just
Speaker 1: keeps it a little bit more secure because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of money. But yeah, unfortunately there are now there's
Speaker 1: no sort of definitive set standard for the deposit. It
Speaker 1: normally is at least fifty percent, but we are seeing
Speaker 1: companies push that further and for that because they are
Speaker 1: suffering a lot of non payment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've seen that in other industries, conditioning all that
Speaker 3: kind of thing. It used to be when I first
Speaker 3: started in this game, it was fifty percent, no more.
Speaker 3: Each party's got equal risk. But I hear you they
Speaker 3: were normal is more like seventy percent.
Speaker 2: Now for those who are just joining us, Stephanie as
Speaker 2: the national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association, roughly two
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty companies falling under their umbrella. They're a
Speaker 2: national voluntary organization that sets codes of ethics and conduct
Speaker 2: for the kitchen industry that really helps to mediate in disputes.
Speaker 2: And Stephanie, thanks for your patients. Let's dive into some
Speaker 2: examples of the kinds of disputes that you have had
Speaker 2: brought to you in the past, because I think it's
Speaker 2: useful to alert our listeners to the things they need
Speaker 2: to be mindful of that could go wrong. And we
Speaker 2: get it sort of group these in two categories, ones
Speaker 2: in which the consumer was in the wrong and ones
Speaker 2: in which the contractor was in the wrong. Let's start
Speaker 2: with the former category, and Stephanie, you had an example
Speaker 2: of a consumer redoing her bathroom Vanity's who came to
Speaker 2: you with a problem that really, in the end turned
Speaker 2: out to be a case of the consumer not communicating
Speaker 2: well enough with their contractor. Won't you tell us what happened.
Speaker 1: Sure, and you said earlier. Communication is key in a
Speaker 1: project like listen. This is a prime example of where
Speaker 1: it can cause major problems. So the client had had
Speaker 1: her vanities designed. She went with the kitchen company, her
Speaker 1: designer to choose what sinks she wanted on her vanity,
Speaker 1: and she had chosen with her designer, you know, the
Speaker 1: drop in sinks, so that that actually the hole gets
Speaker 1: cut into the base into the vanity and they drop in,
Speaker 1: and that is what the whole design was based on.
Speaker 1: The measurements were taken so that the vanity would be
Speaker 1: placed accordingly, so that the tap would splash down correctly
Speaker 1: into a drop in basin. But during the manufacturing process,
Speaker 1: the client decided that she no longer wanted a drop
Speaker 1: in and she wanted to sit on basin. So she
Speaker 1: went and she changed this. She exchanged the sinks and
Speaker 1: she bought what she wanted, but at no point did
Speaker 1: she inform the kitchen company. So when they came to install,
Speaker 1: the vanity was installed. Only then you find now the
Speaker 1: sinks are way too high, it doesn't work, and they
Speaker 1: need to be removed. And of course there are now
Speaker 1: draw holes in her tiles. And she came to us
Speaker 1: saying no, she expected the kitchen company to be responsible
Speaker 1: for the costs of redoing her tiling. And this is
Speaker 1: where we, you know, we have to sit and explain
Speaker 1: to the customer that what they did, in fact was
Speaker 1: do exactly what she had instructed them to do. And
Speaker 1: cabinetry is a bespoke item, so when you sign off
Speaker 1: your drawings with the company, you are signing off that
Speaker 1: this is exactly what you are instructing them to make.
Speaker 1: You are this is the permission you are giving them,
Speaker 1: and you are fully in agreement that this is what
Speaker 1: you want. So unfortunately, with when she failed to tell
Speaker 1: them that they that she had changed her choice, they
Speaker 1: were not given opportunities to repurpose that vanity and change
Speaker 1: their specs, which meant that they did no longer great
Speaker 1: didn't carry any risk or cost to do those changes
Speaker 1: and the resulting damage of the droll holes in the times.
Speaker 2: Okay, So had the company changed the spec for whatever
Speaker 2: reason and then had to deal that, it would have
Speaker 2: then been on their shoulders to remedy the damage that
Speaker 2: they'll be done because she did not communicate that. So
Speaker 2: there's lesson. Number one is if you decide on changes
Speaker 2: midway through a project. You need to be sure that
Speaker 2: you've discussed those with the contract.
Speaker 3: To understand the implications of signing, you sign something very specific.
Speaker 3: These are the measurements, so you are then liable if
Speaker 3: you don't change them in time. Then you can't say, well,
Speaker 3: they must fix the remedy at their cost. That's just
Speaker 3: unreasonable to say.
Speaker 2: I think it's.
Speaker 3: Definitely because these things are expensive. People you know, don't
Speaker 3: want to accept that it was on them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Another example of a case you dealt with
Speaker 2: was a consumer doing a kitchen island and there was
Speaker 2: an issue around surfacing materials Stiffney.
Speaker 1: Yes. So here the client had gone into showroom and
Speaker 1: had seen a piece of stone that they liked, but
Speaker 1: it was a small piece. It was on a sort
Speaker 1: of a desk sized countertop. And you know what we
Speaker 1: find with a lot of stones now is they are
Speaker 1: what we call variegated in pattern and color, which means
Speaker 1: there's a lot of change in variation in the way
Speaker 1: the stone and material looks from one side of a
Speaker 1: large slab to the other. Now, having made a choice
Speaker 1: of by only looking at that small sector, this created
Speaker 1: the problem customers should be and normally are encouraged to
Speaker 1: go to the supplier of the material, to their slab
Speaker 1: yard and where they can view a full slab of
Speaker 1: the material. That's where they can see is the color
Speaker 1: and pattern consystem from one end to the other or
Speaker 1: does it change now? In this case, the piece that
Speaker 1: the client had seen was very dark black with a
Speaker 1: little bit of a white sort of veining in it.
Speaker 1: But the large piece of slab, the full slab and
Speaker 1: its entirely actually gradiated from dark from dark black to
Speaker 1: light gray, and the veining became more as it moved
Speaker 1: to the lighter side. So when his island was installed
Speaker 1: with the full slab, he said, yeah, this is not yet. Well,
Speaker 1: he said, it's not the material I chose, and did
Speaker 1: not want to accept that this was in fact what
Speaker 1: he had selected because he had never seen it in itsy.
Speaker 3: Was it given the opportunity to go though.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask the same question because Stephanie,
Speaker 2: as a layperson, I wouldn't have known that that there
Speaker 2: can be that level of variegation. So I guess a
Speaker 2: lot depends on what you tell the client upfront.
Speaker 1: And this is why we encourage all our members and
Speaker 1: all edits to train their design staff to make sure
Speaker 1: that that that the consumers advised accordingly. And this is
Speaker 1: why we also encourage strong relationships between designer and the
Speaker 1: stone and surface fabricator and that the client gets to
Speaker 1: talk directly to the stone and surface fabricator rather than
Speaker 1: just purely operating through the kitchen company. Because this is
Speaker 1: how the broken telephone wires happen and you don't get
Speaker 1: the good communication.
Speaker 3: I could just jump in there quickly. The same thing
Speaker 3: happens with leather furniture. So as you always ask to
Speaker 3: see have an opportunity, tunity to see a larger heart
Speaker 3: or to be sent a picture before they go and
Speaker 3: do your bespoke sofa, because people look at a certain
Speaker 3: in the showroom it might be look like this, and
Speaker 3: at the actual heart that they because it's natural product
Speaker 3: and there's different markings and colors and graduations and whatever
Speaker 3: textures even that then that causes a lot of I mean,
Speaker 3: the leather industry, sofa industry has terms of conditions that
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Run reams long.
Speaker 3: Because of this, natural products are always an issue uniform.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, just before we carry on to our next
Speaker 2: case study, apologies, our WhatsApp line does appear to have
Speaker 2: sort of stuttered again. So if you have sent a
Speaker 2: question or comment by WhatsApp in the last fifteen minutes
Speaker 2: or so, can I ask you please to redirect it
Speaker 2: by email to pip her h at Cape Talk dot
Speaker 2: co dot or you can call in on two one
Speaker 2: four four six five six seven. If you don't want
Speaker 2: to come to air, you can just dictate your message
Speaker 2: to my producer Vaccine on the other side and she
Speaker 2: can type it through to me. We are just not
Speaker 2: receiving updated WhatsApps at the moment. We have flagged it
Speaker 2: with our technical team, but apologies. If you have sent
Speaker 2: something that's not being reflected, please do divert to calling
Speaker 2: in or sending an email instead. Stephanie Wendy's just mess
Speaker 2: used the word bespoke, and I think that leads us
Speaker 2: neatly into the next case case study of somebody who
Speaker 2: signed off on kitchen drawings, including elements that were being
Speaker 2: made specifically to that design, and then had a change
Speaker 2: of heart sort of once the process was already underway,
Speaker 2: and was quite taken aback when he said to them,
Speaker 2: I've changed my mind. I want to redesign something, and
Speaker 2: was told well, we've already started manufacturing per the original design.
Speaker 2: Does that happen? Quite often?
Speaker 1: It does, And I think it's just also a lack
Speaker 1: of understanding, understandably by many consumers, as to how industry
Speaker 1: operates and what is involved in manufacturing a kitchen. And
Speaker 1: this is why we've focused so much on consumer education
Speaker 1: and an empowerment by knowledge because it can solve so
Speaker 1: many issues. But we find here, you know that the
Speaker 1: consumer not understanding that the fact that a kitchen company
Speaker 1: may be making stuff for up to fifteen different clients
Speaker 1: at any one time, and once they've begun manufacturing, they've
Speaker 1: already spent the money on that item. So in this case,
Speaker 1: that the company had already manufactured and installed, and then
Speaker 1: the client, having seen it, said well, I don't like it.
Speaker 1: It isn't what I had in my head. I want
Speaker 1: you to change it. But then when the quote came
Speaker 1: for the changes, they didn't understand why they had to
Speaker 1: pay a game And here's where you signed off the drawings.
Speaker 1: This is what you told us to make. It's that
Speaker 1: bespoke it. And now you've decided you don't like that.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you just get to have it remade
Speaker 1: for free because the kitchen company cannot reuse that piece
Speaker 1: of equipment or cabinetry. It's been bespoke made for you
Speaker 1: for your space. It's not like you can come out
Speaker 1: and go back on the shelf and be resolved to
Speaker 1: someone else.
Speaker 3: To my mind, there's there's it's a good idea for
Speaker 3: the suppliers to be very worthy in their contracts and
Speaker 3: actually say what you've just said now next to signing
Speaker 3: against the specifications, to say, please understand that if you
Speaker 3: please be sure that this is what you want, because
Speaker 3: if you say you do not like what you chose
Speaker 3: when you see it done, you will have to pay
Speaker 3: for any changes to be made. Are your Do you
Speaker 3: school your members to be that explicit to avoid these
Speaker 3: kinds of disputes?
Speaker 1: We one hundred percent do we actually even offer a
Speaker 1: service when any of our members can and submit their
Speaker 1: teas and season contracts just for Avilliant and well look
Speaker 1: through them and advise them on where we think that
Speaker 1: they should make changes.
Speaker 2: Still with us on the line, Stephanie Forbes, the national
Speaker 2: manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association. And if you're just
Speaker 2: tuning in Keithing, you need to know it's a membership
Speaker 2: of This organization is voluntary, but they are a recognized,
Speaker 2: certified national body with about two hundred and fifty companies
Speaker 2: involved in the kitchen refurbishment industry falling under their umbrella.
Speaker 2: And Stephanie before the break, was chatting to us about
Speaker 2: some of the cases that have come their way for
Speaker 2: dispute resolution in which the consumer was in the wrong Stephanie,
Speaker 2: We're going to switch the focus natter cases where the
Speaker 2: consumer was absolutely in the right to be complaining and
Speaker 2: asking for your help. Thanks again for your patients waiting
Speaker 2: for us. Shall we start with the fitter who drilled
Speaker 2: into a water pipe while installing a bathroom vanity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is obviously an ops. It can happen,
Speaker 1: but one would anticipate that someone who's an experienced twitter
Speaker 1: would have an estuary equipment to test for for any
Speaker 1: water pipes before drilling into a wall. In this case,
Speaker 1: he didn't. He drilled through. The client obviously had to
Speaker 1: call an emergency plumber and then deferred. Wanted to defer
Speaker 1: the costs to the kitchen company. Kitchen company said, not
Speaker 1: our not our problem. Our ts and c say we don't.
Speaker 1: We are not responsible for any damage. We're not entertaining
Speaker 1: this and the complaint came to us. Looking into it,
Speaker 1: we could see absolutely fair your your employee did not
Speaker 1: do their due diligence. The consumer had a right to
Speaker 1: anticipate and expect this kind of professional checking before drilling,
Speaker 1: and as such, a share of that that cost the
Speaker 1: cost to to to fix the pipe and repaint, repaint
Speaker 1: and repair the wall would definitely fall to the kitchen
Speaker 1: company and make those TS and c's null and void
Speaker 1: in this case.
Speaker 2: Okay, that was the bathroom pipe. Tell us about the
Speaker 2: condenser dryer story in somebody's kitchen.
Speaker 1: Yes, so this is a fairly new condensed dryer purchase.
Speaker 1: It was installed in some beautiful Duco paint finished cabinetry,
Speaker 1: a high end product was within warranty, and the condenser
Speaker 1: section started to leak quite a fair amount of water,
Speaker 1: which caused damage to the cabinetry. The dryer was repaired,
Speaker 1: but the kitchen clients supplier should I said, I didn't
Speaker 1: want to take responsibility for the costs of the cabinetry.
Speaker 1: An inspection we could see there was a direct result
Speaker 1: and that we could identify which of the cabinetry units
Speaker 1: had been detrimentally affected by the water. And we then
Speaker 1: stipulated that the appliance company then had to come to
Speaker 1: the party and cover the costs for those repairs and replacements.
Speaker 1: Good they Yes, they're one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: That was gonna you partly asked my next question, which
Speaker 2: is Deephanie, if you make a finding like that, are
Speaker 2: your members obliged to follow through? Do your findings have teeth?
Speaker 2: As it were?
Speaker 1: They are obliged too, That's part of their contract weather
Speaker 1: so they are obliged to buy it by any ruling
Speaker 1: that is handed down. Should they not do so, we
Speaker 1: have a process of what we call addressing that refusal,
Speaker 1: which can lead to membership termination. That can lead to
Speaker 1: us taking further action obviously supporting the consumer if they
Speaker 1: then want to take it legal. So we do have
Speaker 1: a process of addressing should the kitchen company or the
Speaker 1: case a member refuse to comply with the ruling we
Speaker 1: hand down.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for that, right, Let's move on to our
Speaker 2: next case study of a consumer who had work done
Speaker 2: by a branch of a sort of an organization with
Speaker 2: multiple branches, and that organization is a member of KSC,
Speaker 2: and I gathered the final snag list is where things
Speaker 2: ran into trouble.
Speaker 1: Yes, so the client had been reporting there was still
Speaker 1: snagging to do, the job wasn't complete, and the can
Speaker 1: was sort of kicked down the road. Ultimately, when push
Speaker 1: came to shove, the branch had closed. The person running
Speaker 1: the branch had resigned and walked away. Client came to
Speaker 1: us saying, well, what do I do? I have still
Speaker 1: a lot of problems. I can't really use some of
Speaker 1: the items because it hasn't been snagged. How can you help?
Speaker 1: So we then took the issue to the parent company.
Speaker 1: They claimed that they had no responsibility because that branch
Speaker 1: had its own c Care registration so it was a
Speaker 1: separate entity where all that it was trading under the
Speaker 1: name that the parent company had manufactured even though they
Speaker 1: hadn't been been involved in the installation and the design.
Speaker 1: And then they also had a duty to then assist
Speaker 1: the consumer in this case. And here's where we know
Speaker 1: we like to embrace the letter of the law rather
Speaker 1: than the spirit of the law. Rather than the letter
Speaker 1: of the law, yeah, because you want to say, well, yes,
Speaker 1: technically you can refuse, but this is the right thing
Speaker 1: to do, not only for the consumer and CPA compliance,
Speaker 1: but also for your company's reputation.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. So there's there's the law, and then there's you know,
Speaker 3: it's not a case of just stick to the to
Speaker 3: the absolute boundaries of the law, but to do what's
Speaker 3: right as a customer service. A lot of companies kind
Speaker 3: of get caught up in there. They can't see the
Speaker 3: bigger picture.
Speaker 2: And the bigger picture is the word of mouth reputation
Speaker 2: of your business. Whether somebody recommends you to their friends
Speaker 2: and family or says don't go near them with a
Speaker 2: barge pole is often the result. Right. I think we
Speaker 2: can squeeze in one more example, Stephanie. This is an
Speaker 2: interesting I think, sort of parallel to what we were
Speaker 2: saying earlier with natural stone, natural leather. Wendy was emphasizing,
Speaker 2: for example, there can be a great degree of variation
Speaker 2: in a natural product. But in this case you had
Speaker 2: a manufactured kind of stone island installation where the customer
Speaker 2: wasn't happy at the end, and in this case you
Speaker 2: did find in favor of the customer. Tell us what happened.
Speaker 1: Yes, So this is a where product, a porcelain product,
Speaker 1: so where the pattern is actually printed and baked into
Speaker 1: the material, and the clients had only realized once the
Speaker 1: island has been installed, that they could see what didn't
Speaker 1: look like part of the pattern. It looked like a
Speaker 1: market didn't fit with the with the patentation on the
Speaker 1: on the material itself, we were asked to inspect. Before
Speaker 1: we were asked inspector, I said that the company, the
Speaker 1: supplier came in, the fabricator came in, and the supplier
Speaker 1: had reported back saying there was no flaw in the material,
Speaker 1: that this was just part of the printing process and
Speaker 1: part of the natural pattern. Client didn't want to accept it. Understandably,
Speaker 1: we were asked to come in and look ourselves. We
Speaker 1: went into inspect and what we tried to do there
Speaker 1: is follow what is the natural pattern in the printing technique?
Speaker 1: And we could seek very clearly that this was not
Speaker 1: part of the natural flow and pattern throughout the stone.
Speaker 1: And when we compared with that slab with other slabs
Speaker 1: that had been installed in the kitchen, we could see
Speaker 1: it was and blips that had happened during the printing
Speaker 1: and so it was a flaw in the material rather
Speaker 1: than part of its printing and acceptable. And we then
Speaker 1: put the ruling in that the material had to be.
Speaker 2: Replaced before we wrap up One last question in from
Speaker 2: Keith on the email Well, his comment is everybody must
Speaker 2: make sure that it's in the contract who is responsible
Speaker 2: for removing the rubble. He says, my dad had to
Speaker 2: pay an extra three hundred rand to remove the rubble
Speaker 2: at the end of his kitchen REFERB. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that was legal, says Keith Sephany. Would you like
Speaker 2: to comment sure.
Speaker 1: I think where where it's difficult and not everybody understands
Speaker 1: who is responsible for what in the process, like a
Speaker 1: kitchen referb. When it comes to breaking down walls, removing tiles,
Speaker 1: changing plumbing, and removing the old kitchen, most cabinetry companies
Speaker 1: do not take on that responsibility. There are only a
Speaker 1: handful of companies out there that really do that whole
Speaker 1: turn key solution. Most will stick to their specialization. And
Speaker 1: where you've got that scenario, the kitchen company normally isn't
Speaker 1: responsible for breaking things down, so they wouldn't take the
Speaker 1: responsibility of removing the rubble. It's only if the kitchen
Speaker 1: company was contracted to do everything, including maybe breaking down walls, plumbing, etc.
Speaker 1: Then they should be accountable for removal a rubble. So
Speaker 1: it is important to check what services the company offers,
Speaker 1: because the CPA likes to keep people individual the different industry,
Speaker 1: so the plumber is separate to the builder so that
Speaker 1: you don't have these kind of of mix up as
Speaker 1: to who's responsible to whats. And when you've got a
Speaker 1: turnkey company, it is rare because then they become responsible
Speaker 1: for everything, and that's when you need to check the
Speaker 1: fine print on the contract.
Speaker 2: Okay, really good question. Yeah, thanks Keith for pointing that out.
Speaker 2: We must wrap up there, Stephanie. But in just thirty
Speaker 2: to forty seconds, is there anything else we haven't referenced
Speaker 2: today that you'd like to flag that anybody who's contemplating
Speaker 2: a new kitchen installation or refurbishment should ask about upfront
Speaker 2: or just bear in mind as an important issue.
Speaker 1: I think for me, the important thing is do your homework.
Speaker 1: Don't go in blind just saying, oh, the kitchen company
Speaker 1: must help me. They're the professionals, they're the experts. Do
Speaker 1: your homework. You need to have some understanding of what
Speaker 1: you want, what it might cost, what you're prepared to spend,
Speaker 1: and there are resources. We have a very comprehensive website.
Speaker 1: Our social media is always full of hens and tips
Speaker 1: and advice. We welcome phone calls emails from consumers if
Speaker 1: they are not sure what to do, or what materials
Speaker 1: to look at, or what budget is correct. It's all there.
Speaker 1: There's a wealth of information and what is going to
Speaker 1: help consumers is to empower themselves. So by doing some
Speaker 1: homework engaging with our platforms, they can have a really
Speaker 1: good idea of what to expect and knowledge so that
Speaker 1: they can know that is this person I'm talking to
Speaker 1: talking rubbish or do they know what they're talking about?
Speaker 2: You certainly knew what you were talking about. Stephanie Forbes.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your extensive time this afternoon.
Speaker 2: The national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association. Their website
Speaker 2: is KSA dot co dot sed. You can also look
Speaker 2: for them on social media if you are contemplating a job.
Speaker 2: Thank you again for your time and expertise, Stephanie, and
Speaker 2: thank you as always, Wendy Nona, Thank you