Speaker 1: Lunch with Pippa Hudson.
Speaker 2: And now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola.
Speaker 3: Wendy is with us in studio today and we are
Speaker 3: picking up on multiple listener complaints about the same issue,
Speaker 3: jim fees being suddenly hiked in the middle of a contract.
Speaker 3: That's going to be our main focus, but I hope
Speaker 3: we will have time for some open line calls as well,
Speaker 3: and you can phone in on two to one four
Speaker 3: four six five six seven or send a WhatsApp to
Speaker 3: seven two five six seven one five sixty seven if
Speaker 3: you'd like to ask a question or share a comment.
Speaker 3: Before we get onto the gym contract issue, though, I
Speaker 3: want to start by sharing an email we received this morning,
Speaker 3: Wendy from Rachel in Somerset.
Speaker 1: Please you kept this one right well.
Speaker 3: She mailed in to say I was dealing with a
Speaker 3: legitimate online shoe store yesterday wanting to return a pair
Speaker 3: of shoes that were not the same color as the
Speaker 3: pair advertised on their website. Their terms and conditions were outrageous,
Speaker 3: making it virtually impossible to return or exchange for any
Speaker 3: reason other than a four item. The time period allowed
Speaker 3: for this was two days.
Speaker 2: From the data digree, which we know is not correct.
Speaker 3: And Rachel says, then I thought to myself, what would
Speaker 3: Wendy do refer to the Consumer Protection active course, So
Speaker 3: I took screenshots of the relevant sections and emailed it
Speaker 3: to them, pointing out the differences. The response was immediate.
Speaker 3: They agreed to exchange my shoes for a different pair
Speaker 3: as per my request. They emailed a wable for that
Speaker 3: return within minutes. They also dispatched the new shoes the
Speaker 3: very same day. So Rachel would like to say, thank you,
Speaker 3: Wendy Noler.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Rachel. I'm thrilled to hear that. But
Speaker 1: I'm also very disturbed. We need to talk off air
Speaker 1: about this so called legitimate online store because, first of all,
Speaker 1: you also had the protection of the Electronic Communications and
Speaker 1: Transactions Act because it was an online purchase. Yes, and
Speaker 1: unlike when you buy something in a physical store, when
Speaker 1: you buy online, you do have the opportunity in the
Speaker 1: legal right to send it back without it being defective.
Speaker 1: So the color, even they didn't fit you, or whatever
Speaker 1: they've found, but they don't fit you, so within seven
Speaker 1: days you can log a return. You have to pay
Speaker 1: for it if they are not going to pay for it.
Speaker 1: But in your case it was defective. So this whole
Speaker 1: two day thing and it's not in your case in
Speaker 1: terms of both Act you had six months because it
Speaker 1: was defective in to elect as you know, because she
Speaker 1: went to the CPA. I'm thrilled you. Normally people would
Speaker 1: this is my job, you would just right to me.
Speaker 1: But well done, Rachel. You found the Act, you found
Speaker 1: the relevant section which is fifty six for anybody who
Speaker 1: wants to make a note, and they did a sudden turnaround.
Speaker 1: I mean that is so it tells me that they
Speaker 1: put out this nonsense block on illegal response and then
Speaker 1: if you push back with the facts, with the law,
Speaker 1: then they're all over and do the right thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, because they know that they haven't got lass down
Speaker 2: on you.
Speaker 1: I would like to pursue that off, please, Rachel.
Speaker 2: That's that's okay, Rachel.
Speaker 3: If you feel like sending up a follow up to
Speaker 3: let meybody you know who it was, I'm sure she'd
Speaker 3: like to take a look at those t's and c's.
Speaker 3: Then perhaps we can save others from going through the
Speaker 3: same ring moole you did. But well done you and
Speaker 3: thanks for letting us know. Okay, Well, a lovely mail
Speaker 3: from Rachel. But Wendy, I suspect we're not necessarily going
Speaker 3: to have the same kind of happy outcome for our
Speaker 3: complainers on the main issue of the day when you
Speaker 3: set the scene for.
Speaker 1: Us with pleasure. So we're talking about fixed term contracts.
Speaker 1: Fixed term contracts are signed in this country, generally for
Speaker 1: cell phone contracts, gym contracts, home security, car tracking services,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. You paying in some cases just
Speaker 1: for a service and other cases for goods and a service.
Speaker 1: So like with the car tracking service on the phone,
Speaker 1: you're also you're paying your your for the service, the
Speaker 1: tracking and the phone service, but you're also paying off
Speaker 1: the phone or the tracking device as well. And you
Speaker 1: it's for three years, and you you can cancel early,
Speaker 1: but you have to pay a massive cancelation fee. So
Speaker 1: when it comes to gym contract, you're not buying any hardware,
Speaker 1: You're just paying for.
Speaker 2: The right to use the physical train in the gym.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So I've had a problem with gym contracts
Speaker 1: for a long time. Admittedly, things have got a lot better.
Speaker 1: When I first started out as a consumer journalist more
Speaker 1: than twenty five years ago, there was these gyms were
Speaker 1: selling lifetime contracts. I saw families and thousands and thousands
Speaker 1: of rand and then they just folled sorry for you.
Speaker 1: That's the end of that.
Speaker 3: I was one of the victim to the world of
Speaker 3: Health in Johannesburg. I started by a former world wrestling champion,
Speaker 3: if I remember correctly, And yeah, as a student, I
Speaker 3: paid what seemed like a huge sum of money at
Speaker 3: the time for a lifetime membership and I did use it.
Speaker 3: I'm not one of those who signed up and then
Speaker 3: didn't go. We'll talk about them later.
Speaker 2: I didn't use it for a bart probably I've got
Speaker 2: a year and a half it's use.
Speaker 3: And then I went one day and it was simply
Speaker 3: God doors closed, gym didn't exist.
Speaker 1: You could have bought it the day before that happened. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, so you can imagine, and I think you
Speaker 1: look back in these things and think, how is it
Speaker 1: ever allowed? And I'm hoping in years to come, we'll
Speaker 1: look back at what I'm going to talk about now
Speaker 1: and ask the same thing, how.
Speaker 2: Does that ever?
Speaker 1: Yes, that is tolerable, exactly so it works for the
Speaker 1: gyms they lock you in and the cellphone got it,
Speaker 1: they lock you in for twelve That gym doesn't apply
Speaker 1: to solfage twenty four thirty six months. If you want
Speaker 1: to get out, yes you can get out according to
Speaker 1: the CPA, but you've got to pay a cancelation penalty.
Speaker 1: And in the case of gyms, it's anything from forty
Speaker 1: percent of remaining subscriptions. That can add up to many
Speaker 1: thousands up to some gyms, or even as high as
Speaker 1: eighty percent I've seen. I mean, wow, if you're not
Speaker 1: reading the contract, you're not going to see that, and
Speaker 1: that's a real lock in. So what most people do
Speaker 1: is they just keep paying until the contract reaches its end,
Speaker 1: and then you've still got to give a month's noticification
Speaker 1: to cancel. Okay, So you'd think, so they've locked you in,
Speaker 1: And you'd think if you sign the contract, you're committing
Speaker 1: to pay a certain amount on a certain day for
Speaker 1: the twenty four months or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1: You have no ability, legal right to come in month
Speaker 1: eight and say, you know what, I've had this and
Speaker 1: this expense, I've been retrenched. I'd like to I think
Speaker 1: it would be fair if I pay twenty percent less
Speaker 1: or even ten percent less, or whatever the case would be.
Speaker 1: There's no opportunity for you to Yeah, they'd laugh at
Speaker 1: you basically or hand you over when you didn't pay.
Speaker 2: Right, But your.
Speaker 1: Gym's do it, and occasionally the cell phone companies do,
Speaker 1: which always prompts the storm of outrage. They've all done it,
Speaker 1: but they don't do it every year. They do it
Speaker 1: at odd times, right, Okay.
Speaker 2: What they do is hike the fees. Mat hike the fees.
Speaker 1: So why how are they allowed to do it? Because
Speaker 1: they have a clause in their contracts that allows them
Speaker 1: to write. So in virgin Active's case, they do it
Speaker 1: every January and you can tell that, Well, my children
Speaker 1: had contracts, but you can tell i'ven't paid attention to
Speaker 1: this for sometimes when a caller called it, and I
Speaker 1: think it was not a caller, it was Odette. She
Speaker 1: sent a message at the end of last week's show
Speaker 1: or Debt of Nordok. She messaged in to say that
Speaker 1: the fees were going up in January and husband had
Speaker 1: fixed term contracts and they agreed to that amount and
Speaker 1: thought it would be fixed at that amount for the
Speaker 1: entire duration of the contract.
Speaker 2: What's going on?
Speaker 1: And then her husband Anton followed up with an email
Speaker 1: after the show. He said we'll contracted to a set price.
Speaker 1: A debt had signed up for a promo deal of
Speaker 1: seven hundred and seventy six round for twelve months in
Speaker 1: November last Time day, and she was later notified that
Speaker 1: it would be increasing in January. I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: their amount, he didn't say, and I should have heard that.
Speaker 1: But then there's been some back and forth. He's been
Speaker 1: going to head office saying it will it increase, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe it won't. We I'm pretty short will. I don't
Speaker 1: think she's going to be excluded. But in Anton's case,
Speaker 1: in any event, his fee is and he's in contract
Speaker 1: is going from nine to seventy a month to one
Speaker 1: thy and thirty ruand.
Speaker 2: So an extra sixty round a month, yeah, he says.
Speaker 1: I call the club, was bounced around into called head
Speaker 1: office and head office Tommy that they increase every contract
Speaker 1: in January, regardless of the member having signed a contract
Speaker 1: at a set price. And I was told it is
Speaker 1: what it is in those exact words. Yes. So then
Speaker 1: we heard from Leslie Gibson, who'd been listening to the
Speaker 1: show last week. She said same story. Both she and
Speaker 1: her husband got notifications from Virgin Active Sun Valley. The
Speaker 1: other couple also with Sun Valley. By the way, a
Speaker 1: butt a fee increase in January, hers is going up
Speaker 1: fifty rand a month from eight twenty to eight seventy.
Speaker 1: It's not in considerable amount, so I said last week.
Speaker 1: Then that's not fair. That shouldn't be happening. And I
Speaker 1: repeated this in an email to Version Active. I said,
Speaker 1: I can understand and increase affecting new contracts, but existing ones,
Speaker 1: how is that justified? I said, I'm guessing there's a
Speaker 1: line in the contract which permits it. But the member,
Speaker 1: the other party to the agreement, has no right to
Speaker 1: change any of the material conditions.
Speaker 2: Now you didn't stop there either.
Speaker 3: Besides your gut feeling that it's unfair, you also feel
Speaker 3: this practice might well run foul of the CPA, and
Speaker 3: specifically section forty eight. Won't you explain which clauses of
Speaker 3: section forty eight? Pointed out to Version actally, right.
Speaker 1: So it's the section forty eight is the section on unfair,
Speaker 1: unreasonable and unjust contract terms, right, So, as I'm simplifying it,
Speaker 1: but these are the words in that section. As I'm
Speaker 1: not simplifying, I'm editing it. This a supply I must
Speaker 1: not offer to supply or into an agreement to supply
Speaker 1: any good services on terms that are unfair, unreasonable, or unjust.
Speaker 1: And that would be the case if it was excessively
Speaker 1: one sided in favor of any person other than the consumer.
Speaker 1: So they can ear on the side of being more
Speaker 1: favorable to the consumer than the supplier, but not the
Speaker 1: other around. So one signed in favor of let's say
Speaker 1: the company, and b that the terms of the transactional
Speaker 1: agreement are so adverse to the consumer as to be inequitable,
Speaker 1: or the fact, nature and effect of that term conditional
Speaker 1: notice was not drawn to the attention of the consumer
Speaker 1: in a conspicuous manner and form likely to track their attention.
Speaker 1: In other words, it's snuck into the small print and
Speaker 1: the third page of the agreement where most people probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't read it. But it's an oh, it's not a
Speaker 1: it's not an either. In other words, if you bring
Speaker 1: it to the attention of the customer, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that it's not inequitable.
Speaker 2: Things.
Speaker 3: It's two boxes need to Yeah, okay, So you asked
Speaker 3: virgin Active about.
Speaker 1: This, I said, did you is this fact the contract
Speaker 1: is going to go up in January, even if you
Speaker 1: sign up in December, did you bring how is that
Speaker 1: brought to the attention of members and are they actually
Speaker 1: required to initial next to that important clause? And then
Speaker 1: I brought up another case which was similar to the
Speaker 1: one we handled recently. Member of the woman the doctor
Speaker 1: she joined us.
Speaker 3: Yes, who signed up her son thinking it was for
Speaker 3: a three month contract, but actually it was one month.
Speaker 2: It was actually for a year. And what she thought
Speaker 2: was the fee was just the joining.
Speaker 1: Fee exactly, so it was three ninety nine. You can
Speaker 1: join it. She said, he just wants to go for
Speaker 1: a month a night, and they said, we'll take a
Speaker 1: month's membership. Brother. Anyway, she never got a copy of
Speaker 1: the contract and she we didn't read it. She admitted that,
Speaker 1: and she was now then committed to twelve months, which
Speaker 1: we got her out of. But in this case, kay Lash,
Speaker 1: this was Virgin Active and Pavilion outside of Durban. He
Speaker 1: was told it three twenty a month, but the first
Speaker 1: abit order was four seventy five. He's got proof that
Speaker 1: it was supposed to be three twenty. He was to
Speaker 1: cancel without penalty, and he didn't. He says he didn't
Speaker 1: get a contract either. It wasn't emailed him, and it wasn't.
Speaker 3: And I'm sure they told us when we covered that
Speaker 3: case with the doctor that that was very unusual, that
Speaker 3: she hadn't received a copy of the contrary rare and that.
Speaker 1: What's the regal rumor I had to get to get
Speaker 1: it the contract. So yeah, so he was to cancel
Speaker 1: without penalty. And then Virgin Active's case, I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1: It's forty percent of remaining subscriptions there on the better end,
Speaker 1: but that's still a lot of money to pay out.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So you took his case, and he took the examples
Speaker 3: of those who've had the fee who've had the fee
Speaker 3: increase in the middle of a contract, and you put
Speaker 3: them to Virgin Active one.
Speaker 1: Did they say okay? Virgin Active head of customer Service
Speaker 1: Jackie Walter said, Virgin Active contracts clearly provide for an
Speaker 1: annual fee adjustment effective each January, including on fixed term
Speaker 1: agreements that's twelve or twenty four months. It's not applied
Speaker 1: arbitrarily or retrospectively. It's a standard term of the agreement
Speaker 1: that members accept at the point of sign up, she said.
Speaker 1: She said that that clause is clearly disclosed under a
Speaker 1: heading a section headed pricing, and they all are required
Speaker 1: to initial front and back of the contract to confirm
Speaker 1: that they have read and understood the term interesting front
Speaker 1: and back of the contract. I don't know if that
Speaker 1: means actually at that for us increased term, because that
Speaker 1: should that would be ideal. I mean people are used
Speaker 1: to initially at the bottom of forms. But anyway, let's
Speaker 1: I didn't until I'm reading this out now, I didn't
Speaker 1: think to query it. She said, Our sales consultants are
Speaker 1: trained to verbally highlight the clause with the sales process,
Speaker 1: and so we don't believe that the provision falls file
Speaker 1: of section forty eight. Because it's clearly disclosed, not hidden
Speaker 1: or discretionally, consistently applied to all members and accepted by
Speaker 1: the consumer. It doesn't mean that it's not excessively one side.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, so she's spoken to the
Speaker 3: second part about it being it must be disclosed clearly,
Speaker 3: but she hasn't there spoken to the issue.
Speaker 2: Of the nature whether it's all fair.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just clause that it is such an inequitable
Speaker 3: situation that's one party. So the one party, the gym
Speaker 3: has the right to make changes Willy nilly, and the
Speaker 3: other party does not.
Speaker 1: And bare amount of any amount for January of twenty
Speaker 1: For this year twenty twenty five, the increases were ten percent,
Speaker 1: so it's way.
Speaker 3: Above Well, just wait until you hear what's coming, because
Speaker 3: we've got some that are substantially more than that, Wendy
Speaker 3: in some of the new cases on a related one
Speaker 3: that's come true to us. But before we get to that, Okay,
Speaker 3: what did she say about kay Lash's case where he
Speaker 3: was told you're signing for three twenty and then the
Speaker 3: debit went off at four seventy five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she said, we're currently reviewing. This was yesterday lunchtime.
Speaker 1: We're currently reviewing Kellisi's case. If there's been any discrepancy
Speaker 1: between the greed fee and the debit auto amount, or
Speaker 1: if there was failure to provide him with a copy
Speaker 1: of the contract, this will be treated as an exception
Speaker 1: and addressed directly with the cast. With the member, I said,
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the update and I haven't had
Speaker 1: it yet, but I'm sure it will come and we can.
Speaker 1: I'll definitely report back on that, but it will be
Speaker 1: concerning given that they were at pains to say that
Speaker 1: the contracts always sent out. We don't know, maybe they
Speaker 1: were Maybe he didn't see it in box, he said,
Speaker 1: he locked, he couldn't find it, but okay, okay, always
Speaker 1: pushed to see a copy of that contract.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So, in a similar vein to the initial complaints, Benita
Speaker 3: writing and to say, my husband and son signed up
Speaker 3: with Virgin Active table View in October. They've just been
Speaker 3: informed their fees will increase by twenty eight percent. And
Speaker 3: when my husband queried, he was also told it's in
Speaker 3: the contract they can increase and there is nothing he
Speaker 3: can do now. Before we get to the other even
Speaker 3: higher than that exception, Wendy, let's just circle back.
Speaker 2: I mean you've reached out.
Speaker 3: Virgin Active have responded defending their terms, saying we don't
Speaker 3: believe anything here is foul of the CPA.
Speaker 2: Is that it do?
Speaker 3: We just accept the situation and ar you want a
Speaker 3: case by case basis for relief.
Speaker 1: No, So I was thinking when I was preparing for
Speaker 1: today's show that I need in the new year, engage
Speaker 1: with the regulators, Engage with the NCC, Engage with the
Speaker 1: consumer goods and services onwards to say, there is this
Speaker 1: section forty eight, I think this is the case, and
Speaker 1: it's not just Jim's. It's software companies do it as well. Wow,
Speaker 1: you know it is. It has to be a classic
Speaker 1: case of a one sided contract of one company, one
Speaker 1: with the company one part of it can increase unilaterally
Speaker 1: at their discretion. I mean put it up. By whatever
Speaker 1: you sign, you committed, and if you want to get out,
Speaker 1: you've got to pay a massive termination penalty. I cannot
Speaker 1: for the life of being I've been grappling with this
Speaker 1: Act for since which was still a bill fifteen sixteen,
Speaker 1: seventeen years. I think this is a classic case where
Speaker 1: we should push chat. I'm going to challenge it. That's
Speaker 1: mine for reform of it, yeah, or for a reform
Speaker 1: or for it for those that are doing it to
Speaker 1: be told, it's a contravention of Section forty eight.
Speaker 3: Okay, So certainly a story to be continued in the
Speaker 3: new year. Now, after the eyewitness news, we will bring
Speaker 3: in what has happened very specifically at one individual, Virgin
Speaker 3: Active Club, which has a lot of members, very hot
Speaker 3: under the collar. And you will understand why when you
Speaker 3: hear the kind of sums of money that are involved.
Speaker 2: If you are a user of the club in question.
Speaker 3: I bet you already know what I'm talking about, and
Speaker 3: you're welcome to join the conversation.
Speaker 1: Consumer Talk with Wendy Norla.
Speaker 2: You can join the conversation right now.
Speaker 3: I must just preempt this next bit of the conversation
Speaker 3: to say that this is an additional strand to the
Speaker 3: conversation about Virgin Active increases which came in later, and
Speaker 3: we haven't put it to Virgin Active for a response.
Speaker 1: I'll put my hand up and say I didn't see it.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm to hearing your response to it, because we've
Speaker 3: heard now from several different listeners as well as from
Speaker 3: one of our colleagues, who have all been impacted by
Speaker 3: the same thing.
Speaker 2: And that is the substantial refurbishment that has.
Speaker 3: Gone on down the road from us at the Point,
Speaker 3: as some people call it, the green Point Virgin Active.
Speaker 3: And when doy you mentioned that some of the increases,
Speaker 3: the standard January increases have been ten percent, we heard
Speaker 3: from table View twenty eight percent.
Speaker 2: Listen to this.
Speaker 3: So Greenpoint not just refurbished, but a complete revamp into
Speaker 3: a completely new kind of club, their premium brand collection
Speaker 3: clubs when it reopens in January. It's an entirely new space.
Speaker 3: It's got a spa, and it's got coworking facilities, et cetera,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Added on, so a very bells and whistles
Speaker 3: upgrade to what was there before.
Speaker 2: But here's the kicker.
Speaker 3: The people who were members there before are being off
Speaker 3: at the option two options. Basically, you can continue your
Speaker 3: membership here at a vastly inflated rate, or it's okay
Speaker 3: if you don't want to do that, you can go
Speaker 3: and train at Wembley Square or Forshare. Now, our colleague
Speaker 3: who lives on the far end of cepoint is saying,
Speaker 3: for me to get to Wembley Square or in Rush
Speaker 3: our track after work forty five minutes drive, it's just
Speaker 3: not a liable alternative for her. But neither is the
Speaker 3: fee increase that comes with it. So here are a
Speaker 3: few examples. Ryan's saying, they closed that gym, let everyone
Speaker 3: know that they would be upgrading it over six months.
Speaker 3: We then got males to say it's changed from being
Speaker 3: a normal gym to the so called new country club.
Speaker 3: The fee is going from six hundred to eighteen hundred
Speaker 3: round a month in his case, so that's tripling the
Speaker 3: fee and same story. If you don't like it, move
Speaker 3: to Wembley or Forshaw. Listen to this listener. Jenna, who
Speaker 3: wrote to us, had two children with associated memberships who
Speaker 3: were using that gym, and she said, listen to this.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Jenna's daughter who was paying four hundred and fifty round
Speaker 3: per month, her fee will go up to seventeen fifty
Speaker 3: per month, so more than four times higher. If they
Speaker 3: don't want to pay, they have been told you have
Speaker 3: to pay the forty percent canter.
Speaker 2: To add insult to injury.
Speaker 3: Just three months ago, so while this gym was closed,
Speaker 3: knowing that it was going to reopen in January, she
Speaker 3: signed her son up.
Speaker 2: Nobody said anything to her.
Speaker 3: At that point about the fee jump that was coming,
Speaker 3: so she signed him up at three hundred and twenty
Speaker 3: rand a month. That one is going up to two thousand,
Speaker 3: two hundred permit, and when she questioned it, she said,
Speaker 3: they told her the reason for the substantial increase is
Speaker 3: that these child members will now have accessed all kinds
Speaker 3: of wonderful additional benefits unlimited paddle, luxury spa facilities, sound
Speaker 3: baths and my favorite coworking spaces which are so in
Speaker 3: demand children. She says that no stage during the past
Speaker 3: year has there been a mention of this drastic increase,
Speaker 3: not even when I signed that new contract three months ago,
Speaker 3: and she I thought quite reasonably wrote, I fully understand
Speaker 3: that Virgin are entitled to increase their rates, and due
Speaker 3: to their huge investment they've put into the new club,
Speaker 3: they need to do so. But it's the very poor communication,
Speaker 3: not giving members the full picture where new contracts that
Speaker 3: were being signed, that feels akin to extortion. She says,
Speaker 3: none of these facilities are needed by the children. I'm
Speaker 3: sure they're lovely to have, but instead of taking away
Speaker 3: my kid's ability to train at an affordable rate, challenged
Speaker 3: version and said, why don't they tear the offering so
Speaker 3: that members who just want to use the equipment have
Speaker 3: the option of a lower, lower price, specially bells.
Speaker 1: And I've signed the other contracts.
Speaker 3: And she said, they simply shut me down and have
Speaker 3: told me to either pay or leave. She feels it's
Speaker 3: a very harsh attitude to.
Speaker 2: Have towards loyal members.
Speaker 3: Ryan in the same boat, and our colleague glynnis in
Speaker 3: the same boat. Here is Monica writing the same thing,
Speaker 3: being offered a new so called founders membership for the
Speaker 3: exclusively upgraded new club that we have to pay eight
Speaker 3: close to eighteen hundred round four. However, the office states
Speaker 3: Virgin Active can still increase the price at any time.
Speaker 3: We're obliged to commit to twelve months. Surely that twelve
Speaker 3: month commitment should go both ways, she said, So, I mean, okay,
Speaker 3: And again we haven't put the specific aspect.
Speaker 1: This is what I would say to vision what we're
Speaker 1: talking to, because I'm still chasing up the other case.
Speaker 1: As we said, so, yes, I presume when the gym
Speaker 1: was closed that they were nobody was paying anything because
Speaker 1: the gym was closed and nobody.
Speaker 3: I think they were allowed to keep paying and use
Speaker 3: other facilities if I'm not mistake in others, I think.
Speaker 1: In fairness during COVID times when nobody could be going
Speaker 1: to gym and some many gyms just carried on larger yes,
Speaker 1: and Version Active didn't. So I had a lot of
Speaker 1: respect for them over that because that was a great
Speaker 1: knock for them, but it was the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: So let's I'll put that on the table in fairness.
Speaker 1: But in this case, I think to I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just such a no brainer if you're going to do
Speaker 1: that change the playing fields. They've signed a contract X
Speaker 1: amount for this without the disclosure that please understand, in
Speaker 1: three months, five months, whatever, this contract offering is not
Speaker 1: going to exist anymore because the gym is going to
Speaker 1: be in a completely different, more superior form and it's
Speaker 1: going to cost more. So there was no disclosure. They
Speaker 1: signed up and now being told you either pay three,
Speaker 1: four or five times more or you pay the cancelation fee. Well,
Speaker 1: I wonder the cancelation forty percent of what the old
Speaker 1: or the new I'd love to know. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the first question I'm going to ask. And also I
Speaker 1: think it's the cpa uses a wonderful word. I think
Speaker 1: it's unconscionable not to have allow those people with pre
Speaker 1: existing contracts based on the old offering for them not
Speaker 1: to be able to cancel without penalty. There's just so
Speaker 1: it's indispensible.
Speaker 2: That was my gut instinct as well.
Speaker 3: I can understand and as Jenna said, you understand there
Speaker 3: is a need to upgrade the membership fees to reflect
Speaker 3: the massive upgrade of the space, But to do that
Speaker 3: to existing customers who you locked into a contract on
Speaker 3: a certain offering.
Speaker 2: At a certain price just does not feel right.
Speaker 1: Surely reasable person would see that. So I don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, I'm very very strict about
Speaker 1: the right to plan all of that. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: find it hard to believe that they've had this attitude
Speaker 1: pay app move or pay the cancelation fee.
Speaker 2: I'm just sitting here thinking out loud.
Speaker 3: But Wendy, to me, the fair thing to do would
Speaker 3: have been to say the prices have got to go up,
Speaker 3: and they've got to go up substantially to reflect ucility.
Speaker 1: It's a different thing.
Speaker 3: It's a different people to finish the contract that they're
Speaker 3: on and by all means cap it and say you
Speaker 3: have a choice. If you wanted to use all of
Speaker 3: the new facilities, pay the new rate. If you just
Speaker 3: want to use the equipment and not be allowed access
Speaker 3: to the chattler clothes, swimming school and the luxury spa
Speaker 3: and the bells and whistles, we will allow that at
Speaker 3: the current rate and let you complete the contract you're on.
Speaker 3: And at the end of that contract you can then
Speaker 3: say to them you can take high fee a or
Speaker 3: you can find another club.
Speaker 2: That acud look way fair.
Speaker 1: Maybe they don't have a means of policing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe that's the access could be quite a logistical nightmare.
Speaker 1: But but there are fair always to go about this.
Speaker 1: And this is going to have to be a follow
Speaker 1: up for next week. I will say the very media
Speaker 1: for Indie their answer in good time. And I just
Speaker 1: didn't I just you know, matain Box, I just didn't
Speaker 1: see this extra one. I'm afraid, so that my bad.
Speaker 1: But we will. We will come back to it next week.
Speaker 1: I think it's a very important.
Speaker 3: Okay, so we've already got Jenna's case study, and I
Speaker 3: mean those the child membership. That one, for me is
Speaker 3: particularly agregious because no child is ever going to use
Speaker 3: a co working space with with with with slide projector facilities,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Really, come on, So you can't claim that
Speaker 3: it's justifiable in terms of facilities that they will be using.
Speaker 1: Definitely not, and I mean at the cost. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you've got more than one child, it's it's just
Speaker 1: it's attenable.
Speaker 3: Okay, So that one is definitely to be continued. We
Speaker 3: have Jenna, thank you. We have a very well detailed
Speaker 3: example with costings from you. If the others Ryan and
Speaker 3: Monica who mailed me who have also been impacted, if
Speaker 3: you would like to send us just a bullet point
Speaker 3: summary of what you were paying before, what you've been
Speaker 3: told you will pay, and what you've been offered as
Speaker 3: an option i e. Take it or leave it, cancel
Speaker 3: at forty percent, or use another bra just explained to
Speaker 3: us what was said when when you challenged it, if
Speaker 3: you challenged it with them. Monica believes that it is
Speaker 3: partly a strategy for spreading the crowd. She said that
Speaker 3: Point gym has always been over subscribed and crowded, whereas
Speaker 3: the Foreshore branch is undersubscribed. She believes they are trying
Speaker 3: to redirect some of the membership to the lesser used gym,
Speaker 3: perhaps that this is a way of doing it. Teresa said,
Speaker 3: Also this is also I think a fair point. Theresa
Speaker 3: says Virgin Active didn't ask the existing members if they
Speaker 3: wanted the fancy, luxurious gym to replace the one they had.
Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody who wants to pay for
Speaker 3: such improvements. In Monica's case, she says, we're retirees. We
Speaker 3: won't be using the co workspace either, so the same
Speaker 3: thing applies. So definitely a follow up conversation to be had.
Speaker 3: It's around the principle of how they're doing it, as
Speaker 3: well as the poor communication with the members exactly, and
Speaker 3: particularly signing people onto new contracts without advisor.
Speaker 1: Speaking of new contracts, please could some one of them
Speaker 1: or all of them send me the contract and we
Speaker 1: can redact all your personal information. But I want to
Speaker 1: see if you were made to initial next to the
Speaker 1: part that says there will be an increase in January, okay,
Speaker 1: every jest.
Speaker 3: If anybody can can send us a copy of that,
Speaker 3: that would be fantastic, thank you, just in case you
Speaker 3: think it's only gyms and poor writing, and to say
Speaker 3: it's even worse with phone contracts. I had a two
Speaker 3: year data contract with photocom for one hundred and ninety
Speaker 3: nine round per months. By the end of the contract
Speaker 3: I was paying three hundred rand thirty three percent and
Speaker 3: to get out of that.
Speaker 1: You've got to now pay a termination penalty. I'm so
Speaker 1: going to be over this issue in the new year.
Speaker 1: I mean, even if it goes nowhere, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that old. I had enough and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to take it anymore. That kind of you know, push
Speaker 1: you know when we first got cell phone contracts or
Speaker 1: even players you go. I got my first contract in
Speaker 1: London and then I came back and I had this
Speaker 1: phone and I went into pays you go and you
Speaker 1: had to pay to listen to your voicemail and it
Speaker 1: was like two and something at time, and so you'd
Speaker 1: go through all and it was the same I mean
Speaker 1: on contracts. Yeah, and imagine accepting that now there was
Speaker 1: absolutely outrageous and there was pushback and they stop that nonsense.
Speaker 2: So sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just needs enough people to say we're not
Speaker 1: going to do it. So I normally get the pushback
Speaker 1: with the self an increase. It's like huge pushbacks. I'll
Speaker 1: see you, we'll do it, and then MTN will do it.
Speaker 1: It's not every year, and it's at random times and years.
Speaker 1: They have had extra expenses in terms of having to
Speaker 1: secure their towers and all the rest. But do it
Speaker 1: with a new contracts, or sell shorter contracts, or let
Speaker 1: them cancel without a penalty. There's fairer ways of.
Speaker 2: Doing That's the issue. So Janet, I take your point. Janet.
Speaker 3: She's written to say that Virgin Active Point lease was
Speaker 3: up and the city had a bidding process. Virgin had
Speaker 3: to pay a huge amount to win it. I know
Speaker 3: it was a massive fee. I remember that. But and
Speaker 3: Janet says they have to recoup that significantly increased rent somehow.
Speaker 3: If that not won the bet, we wouldn't have the
Speaker 3: gym there at all. All points. The point is, though, Janet,
Speaker 3: the way in which they're doing it, the way in
Speaker 3: which it's been communicated, and the lock in the telling
Speaker 3: people if you can't afford this, sorry for you forty
Speaker 3: percent cancelation fee to get out of it is leaving
Speaker 3: a very bad taste.
Speaker 1: It's just all about disclosure and allowing consumers to make
Speaker 1: informed choices.
Speaker 3: Well to your point, Jeff, is just written in to say,
Speaker 3: when first taking out the gym contract, the customers was
Speaker 3: shown around the facilities. The contract covered this viewed gym. Therefore,
Speaker 3: the rates should permanently apply to the known gym for
Speaker 3: this contract.
Speaker 1: That contracts no issue.
Speaker 3: If you get to the end of your contract and
Speaker 3: they then say, okay, sorry, but now the new contract
Speaker 3: is three hundred percent.
Speaker 1: More, we understand choice. You didn't sign up for this literally,
Speaker 1: so we allow you to cancel it, no penalty. It's
Speaker 1: it's the not waiving the penalty. That's really I think.
Speaker 3: Sticking in the crawl of so many people. Yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: thank you very much for those contracts.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Other branches also, this is from Catherine about the Constantia branch.
Speaker 3: She said is always packed to the brim. My husband's
Speaker 3: fees have gone up from twelve hundred to sixteen hundred rand.
Speaker 3: Mine have gone up on discovery from six fifty to
Speaker 3: nine hundred rand, which is a very steep increase. And
Speaker 3: she said, when I said I wanted to cancel, they
Speaker 3: told me I'd have to pay over one thousand rand
Speaker 3: to cancel.
Speaker 2: So okay. So there's the communication issue.
Speaker 3: There's the fairness question of whether it is fair to
Speaker 3: lock people into a massively inflated price when they signed
Speaker 3: up for something completely different and a different kind of facility.
Speaker 3: So to be continued for sure, all right, we are
Speaker 3: happy to open the lines at that point onto other issues.
Speaker 3: And I've already got one or two open line WhatsApps
Speaker 3: that have come through. Seven two five six seven one
Speaker 3: five sixty seven is the number to use if you'd
Speaker 3: like to send a question our way. Here is one
Speaker 3: from Chris in Somerset, West. Could you please ask Wendy
Speaker 3: a question for me. I bought an ankle guard at
Speaker 3: a pharmacy. The assistant felt I ought to take a
Speaker 3: large which I agreed. When I got home and I
Speaker 3: opened the package and tried it on, I couldn't even
Speaker 3: get it my foot, so I thought, no problem, I'll
Speaker 3: exchange it. But then I saw the sticker on the
Speaker 3: box which said non refundable.
Speaker 2: Is this fair?
Speaker 3: I've donated it to our clinic where someone else may
Speaker 3: need it, but I do feel it's unfair. Well, Chris,
Speaker 3: that's a lovely thing to have done with it to
Speaker 3: make sure somebody else will get the benefit of it.
Speaker 3: When I do record medical devices or one of the
Speaker 3: categories like underwear where the right of return is limited.
Speaker 1: Yes, but here is an interesting thing.
Speaker 2: If Chris was it If I think it's a she Chris, yes, If.
Speaker 1: She was unable to try that ankle god on to
Speaker 1: make sure it fit to do, then it's not acceptable
Speaker 1: to say we're not going to take it back. And
Speaker 1: then you've also got an issue of mis selling. So
Speaker 1: she was told by someone in a position of authority
Speaker 1: or expertise, this should fit. You brought the product on
Speaker 1: the basis of that professional advice and it was wrong,
Speaker 1: So definitely every fund would have been in order there
Speaker 1: even if they were unable to sell it again. It
Speaker 1: was you know, you bought the product based on their great.
Speaker 2: So she should be able to return it to the pharmacy.
Speaker 3: Well it's too late now because she's donated it, which
Speaker 3: was a lovely thing to do, but for future reference.
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's mis silling, which case it is not
Speaker 1: your You should be liable.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be all liable. Okay, thank you. We've got
Speaker 2: a caller on the line if we may.
Speaker 3: Can we take that call? Yes we can, Good afternoon
Speaker 3: to use Zukie and Blowberg.
Speaker 2: H Yes, nice to hear your voice against Hi.
Speaker 4: I tend to know Wendy's thoughts on being sold a
Speaker 4: parallel import phone without it being stated, because I bought
Speaker 4: on those dews that didn't know that it was such
Speaker 4: until I saw an article on my board band. I mean,
Speaker 4: when I think it back to the supplier, all they
Speaker 4: did was replace it because it had been more than
Speaker 4: the sixth not a place it was repair it because
Speaker 4: it had been more than the six months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Zuki, Yes, the the Temer Protection Act doesn't outlaw
Speaker 1: the selling of parallel products or gray imports in this country.
Speaker 1: There are genuine products, but very importantly, they were not
Speaker 1: destined for sale in this country. They were not brought
Speaker 1: in via their official channels, which means they don't carry
Speaker 1: the warranty. And that's a huge that's a huge shortcoming,
Speaker 1: right you have a product, especially your cell phone, without
Speaker 1: a warranty. So that was a very major form of
Speaker 1: mis selling. The Act says very very clearly that it
Speaker 1: needs to be stated, there needs to be disclosed to
Speaker 1: the customers and the customer can make an informed choice.
Speaker 1: So you might choose to buy a parallel import cosmetic
Speaker 1: but not an electronic product device, very big difference. So
Speaker 1: I would say, even though it was after the six
Speaker 1: months when you found out, the basic problem stems to
Speaker 1: the fact that you would arguably not have bought the
Speaker 1: product had you known it was a great important without
Speaker 1: any backup in this country. So I would definitely how
Speaker 1: long ago is it now that you bought it?
Speaker 4: Okay, it was so I bought it in November last
Speaker 4: year and I did return it to the retailer and
Speaker 4: all they did was they said they flashed it and
Speaker 4: then they sent you back the phone when I actually
Speaker 4: said I want a refund because slash and so apparently
Speaker 4: they removed the old software operating system and put them
Speaker 4: operator stumpany that allows it to work to Amafica.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that still doesn't give you any backup on
Speaker 1: the phone. And that's although yes, probably was a you
Speaker 1: which is which is up? But I would push that.
Speaker 1: I would say, that doesn't get away from the fact
Speaker 1: that you you broke the law and selling in marketing
Speaker 1: and selling this product and the way you did it.
Speaker 1: So you welcome to keep us posted via email or
Speaker 1: send an email and copy me or Papa or both.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would push back. That shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, thank you so much, Thanks Oki.
Speaker 2: Good luck.
Speaker 3: I hope they cave as they should on that one,
Speaker 3: but please let us know if they don't. Okay, this
Speaker 3: this is an interesting nugget to add to the gym
Speaker 3: upgrade story. Kim says Constantia Virgin Active is also turning
Speaker 3: into a country club. They are looking at renovations next year.
Speaker 3: So also the version with all the extra bells and
Speaker 3: whistles and all the extra costs and fees that will
Speaker 3: come with that.
Speaker 2: So be mindful of that.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's I'm taking that in good faith as told
Speaker 3: to me by an apparent member of that club. But
Speaker 3: thank you for adding to that. So I think that
Speaker 3: maybe should be part of the conversation, Wendy. Are other
Speaker 3: clubs destined for this kind of upgrade? And how will
Speaker 3: that be communicated to incoming signees of contracts, Because if
Speaker 3: it's going to affect other gyms in the same way,
Speaker 3: then people need to know what they are signing on
Speaker 3: for could change dramatically during the term of their contract.
Speaker 3: Right back to an open line question, This is an
Speaker 3: interesting one from d She says, I ordered a part
Speaker 3: for a washing machine from a supplier and then didn't
Speaker 3: need it after I fetched and paid for it. When
Speaker 3: I called them to ask if I could return it,
Speaker 3: they said no, it was nine hundred and fifty rand.
Speaker 3: What can I do to return it and get my
Speaker 3: money back?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with said part? Can she do anything?
Speaker 1: She ordered it online? Yes, but and if she logged
Speaker 1: a return within seven days? But that's the thing. What
Speaker 1: did she say?
Speaker 3: I ordered it, ordered a part? She doesn't say how
Speaker 3: whether it was online or over the phone.
Speaker 1: Sounds like she made the order and then went in
Speaker 1: and bought it in a store. Yes, went and fetched
Speaker 1: and Paige so that she doesn't need it. No, there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with it. What many of those places do
Speaker 1: is they will take back and charge an Admond free,
Speaker 1: so they crawl back ten percent to whatever. And people
Speaker 1: often complained to me on that, and I say, well,
Speaker 1: they didn't have to take it back at all, and
Speaker 1: so now it's take it or leave it on your part.
Speaker 1: But it can be a flatno if you've bought it
Speaker 1: in a store and it's not defective. A lot of
Speaker 1: customers don't realize that because so many consumers, rather so
Speaker 1: many people, stores will take things back no matter what,
Speaker 1: and it's given consumers the idea that it's their right
Speaker 1: when it's not. So always ask the question what their policy.
Speaker 1: They chosen voluntary policy on the take back of non
Speaker 1: defective items because they can do their own thing when
Speaker 1: they can do nothing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so do so in good faith. They sold it
Speaker 2: to you. It was in working condition, there's nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with it, so they do not have to accept it
Speaker 2: as a return, is the bottom line. I wonder if
Speaker 2: there's a platform where you can try selling it on Yogo?
Speaker 3: Is my cut instinct, neighborhood or your neighborhood or Facebook
Speaker 3: marketplace or something like that. See if you can sell
Speaker 3: it would find a buyer. But if you do do
Speaker 3: Facebook marketplace, you know what the rules are. Do you
Speaker 3: vet your seller, you meet in a public place, you
Speaker 3: don't get lured into going anywhere else to sell it
Speaker 3: to them.
Speaker 2: It's a yeah. So that's an option.
Speaker 3: Is you can try and sell it secondhand, well, sell
Speaker 3: it as unused, but on a second hand platform effectively
Speaker 3: is the only way I can think of for d
Speaker 3: to claim any of that money back.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that stings. Sry, it does, yeah, it does indeed.
Speaker 3: Okay, right, we have oh just about a minute in hand,
Speaker 3: so I don't think there's time to tackle a new question.
Speaker 3: I do want to just say this, if you want
Speaker 3: to send Wendy, particularly to those people impacted.
Speaker 2: By the gym upgrade and the upgraded fee that came
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 3: If you want to send additional cases to Wendy, please
Speaker 3: do it quickly today before she reaches out to Virgin.
Speaker 2: Active, so we can send you to do it this evening. Okay,
Speaker 2: so send it this afternoon if possible.
Speaker 3: Just pop her a mail to consumer at Nola dot
Speaker 3: co dot z a k n O w l e
Speaker 3: R and just set out for her how you have
Speaker 3: been impact, When did you join that gym, what length
Speaker 3: of contract are you on, what was your fee beforehand?
Speaker 3: What have you been told the fee will be now?
Speaker 3: What options have you been offered as an alternative if
Speaker 3: you don't want to pay that fee, et cetera. Any
Speaker 3: of that relevant information and send it through to Wendy
Speaker 3: and we will try and put together a list of
Speaker 3: than our several people complaining on the same issue, which
Speaker 3: we can then send through to Virgin Active to get
Speaker 3: a response, and we will commit to obviously if.
Speaker 2: They get back to us in time.
Speaker 3: We will share that response next week Wednesday for those
Speaker 3: who are interested, So please make an appointment to listen
Speaker 3: next week Wednesday. On that note, if you do ever
Speaker 3: want to raise a case with Wendy, the best thing
Speaker 3: to do is to fill out the form on her website,
Speaker 3: which is Wendy Nola dot co dot spelled k n
Speaker 3: O w l e R. There is an extensive contact
Speaker 3: form that she has created in a way to prompt
Speaker 3: all of the information.
Speaker 2: She needs from you, and you can put two attachments okay.
Speaker 3: With attachments included so that everything goes into one single
Speaker 3: point of contact for her makes it so much easier
Speaker 3: to follow up on cases, but otherwise the email by
Speaker 3: default consumer at NOLA dot co dot sed Wendy, thank
Speaker 3: you as always and we'll ch out again Weday Yes,