WEBVTT - Consumer Talk: Fee increases in fixed-term contracts 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:03.360 Lunch with Pippa Hudson. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.920 And now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:10.879 Wendy is with us in studio today and we are 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.960 picking up on multiple listener complaints about the same issue, 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.239 jim fees being suddenly hiked in the middle of a contract. 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.400 That's going to be our main focus, but I hope 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.200 we will have time for some open line calls as well, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.279 and you can phone in on two to one four 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.280 four six five six seven or send a WhatsApp to 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.760 seven two five six seven one five sixty seven if 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:32.800 you'd like to ask a question or share a comment. 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.000 Before we get onto the gym contract issue, though, I 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.600 want to start by sharing an email we received this morning, 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:40.080 Wendy from Rachel in Somerset. 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.279 Please you kept this one right well. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.159 She mailed in to say I was dealing with a 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.440 legitimate online shoe store yesterday wanting to return a pair 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.880 of shoes that were not the same color as the 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.200 pair advertised on their website. Their terms and conditions were outrageous, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.960 making it virtually impossible to return or exchange for any 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.200 reason other than a four item. The time period allowed 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:03.640 for this was two days. 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.240 From the data digree, which we know is not correct. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.440 And Rachel says, then I thought to myself, what would 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.959 Wendy do refer to the Consumer Protection active course, So 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.120 I took screenshots of the relevant sections and emailed it 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.720 to them, pointing out the differences. The response was immediate. 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.319 They agreed to exchange my shoes for a different pair 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.480 as per my request. They emailed a wable for that 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.080 return within minutes. They also dispatched the new shoes the 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.720 very same day. So Rachel would like to say, thank you, 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:33.600 Wendy Noler. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.360 Oh, thank you, Rachel. I'm thrilled to hear that. But 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.679 I'm also very disturbed. We need to talk off air 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:45.560 about this so called legitimate online store because, first of all, 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.040 you also had the protection of the Electronic Communications and 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.160 Transactions Act because it was an online purchase. Yes, and 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.440 unlike when you buy something in a physical store, when 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.600 you buy online, you do have the opportunity in the 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.640 legal right to send it back without it being defective. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.200 So the color, even they didn't fit you, or whatever 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.880 they've found, but they don't fit you, so within seven 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.200 days you can log a return. You have to pay 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:12.600 for it if they are not going to pay for it. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.959 But in your case it was defective. So this whole 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.920 two day thing and it's not in your case in 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.280 terms of both Act you had six months because it 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.079 was defective in to elect as you know, because she 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.480 went to the CPA. I'm thrilled you. Normally people would 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:30.720 this is my job, you would just right to me. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.120 But well done, Rachel. You found the Act, you found 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.760 the relevant section which is fifty six for anybody who 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.359 wants to make a note, and they did a sudden turnaround. 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.000 I mean that is so it tells me that they 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:50.160 put out this nonsense block on illegal response and then 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.880 if you push back with the facts, with the law, 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:55.280 then they're all over and do the right thing. 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:57.560 Okay, because they know that they haven't got lass down 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:57.880 on you. 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.040 I would like to pursue that off, please, Rachel. 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:02.920 That's that's okay, Rachel. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:04.320 If you feel like sending up a follow up to 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.520 let meybody you know who it was, I'm sure she'd 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:08.080 like to take a look at those t's and c's. 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:10.760 Then perhaps we can save others from going through the 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.120 same ring moole you did. But well done you and 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.880 thanks for letting us know. Okay, Well, a lovely mail 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.360 from Rachel. But Wendy, I suspect we're not necessarily going 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.400 to have the same kind of happy outcome for our 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.240 complainers on the main issue of the day when you 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:23.960 set the scene for. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.760 Us with pleasure. So we're talking about fixed term contracts. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.840 Fixed term contracts are signed in this country, generally for 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:37.760 cell phone contracts, gym contracts, home security, car tracking services, 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.480 that kind of thing. You paying in some cases just 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.840 for a service and other cases for goods and a service. 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.240 So like with the car tracking service on the phone, 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.200 you're also you're paying your your for the service, the 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.560 tracking and the phone service, but you're also paying off 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:59.120 the phone or the tracking device as well. And you 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.920 it's for three years, and you you can cancel early, 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.880 but you have to pay a massive cancelation fee. So 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.440 when it comes to gym contract, you're not buying any hardware, 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:09.600 You're just paying for. 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:11.760 The right to use the physical train in the gym. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:16.159 Yes, exactly. So I've had a problem with gym contracts 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.080 for a long time. Admittedly, things have got a lot better. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.560 When I first started out as a consumer journalist more 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.040 than twenty five years ago, there was these gyms were 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:30.200 selling lifetime contracts. I saw families and thousands and thousands 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.560 of rand and then they just folled sorry for you. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:34.320 That's the end of that. 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.159 I was one of the victim to the world of 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.840 Health in Johannesburg. I started by a former world wrestling champion, 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.440 if I remember correctly, And yeah, as a student, I 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.400 paid what seemed like a huge sum of money at 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:50.080 the time for a lifetime membership and I did use it. 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:51.840 I'm not one of those who signed up and then 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:53.279 didn't go. We'll talk about them later. 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.000 I didn't use it for a bart probably I've got 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:55.960 a year and a half it's use. 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:57.760 And then I went one day and it was simply 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.000 God doors closed, gym didn't exist. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.320 You could have bought it the day before that happened. Yes, 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.560 you know, so you can imagine, and I think you 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.560 look back in these things and think, how is it 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.280 ever allowed? And I'm hoping in years to come, we'll 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.000 look back at what I'm going to talk about now 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.440 and ask the same thing, how. 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:14.080 Does that ever? 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.839 Yes, that is tolerable, exactly so it works for the 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.440 gyms they lock you in and the cellphone got it, 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:27.120 they lock you in for twelve That gym doesn't apply 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.440 to solfage twenty four thirty six months. If you want 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.039 to get out, yes you can get out according to 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.440 the CPA, but you've got to pay a cancelation penalty. 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.320 And in the case of gyms, it's anything from forty 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.240 percent of remaining subscriptions. That can add up to many 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.960 thousands up to some gyms, or even as high as 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.520 eighty percent I've seen. I mean, wow, if you're not 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.160 reading the contract, you're not going to see that, and 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.280 that's a real lock in. So what most people do 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.920 is they just keep paying until the contract reaches its end, 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.440 and then you've still got to give a month's noticification 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:03.640 to cancel. Okay, So you'd think, so they've locked you in, 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.160 And you'd think if you sign the contract, you're committing 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.520 to pay a certain amount on a certain day for 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.600 the twenty four months or whatever the case may be. 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:20.680 You have no ability, legal right to come in month 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.040 eight and say, you know what, I've had this and 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.640 this expense, I've been retrenched. I'd like to I think 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.320 it would be fair if I pay twenty percent less 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.760 or even ten percent less, or whatever the case would be. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.120 There's no opportunity for you to Yeah, they'd laugh at 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.640 you basically or hand you over when you didn't pay. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.120 Right, But your. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.039 Gym's do it, and occasionally the cell phone companies do, 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:49.680 which always prompts the storm of outrage. They've all done it, 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.640 but they don't do it every year. They do it 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.400 at odd times, right, Okay. 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.040 What they do is hike the fees. Mat hike the fees. 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:00.400 So why how are they allowed to do it? Because 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.279 they have a clause in their contracts that allows them 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.760 to write. So in virgin Active's case, they do it 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.160 every January and you can tell that, Well, my children 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.800 had contracts, but you can tell i'ven't paid attention to 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:17.000 this for sometimes when a caller called it, and I 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.200 think it was not a caller, it was Odette. She 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.640 sent a message at the end of last week's show 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.960 or Debt of Nordok. She messaged in to say that 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.520 the fees were going up in January and husband had 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.960 fixed term contracts and they agreed to that amount and 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.120 thought it would be fixed at that amount for the 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:38.640 entire duration of the contract. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:39.280 What's going on? 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.720 And then her husband Anton followed up with an email 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:45.360 after the show. He said we'll contracted to a set price. 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:47.720 A debt had signed up for a promo deal of 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:49.680 seven hundred and seventy six round for twelve months in 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:55.720 November last Time day, and she was later notified that 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.680 it would be increasing in January. I'm not sure if 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:00.360 their amount, he didn't say, and I should have heard that. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.320 But then there's been some back and forth. He's been 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.320 going to head office saying it will it increase, maybe 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.760 maybe it won't. We I'm pretty short will. I don't 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.320 think she's going to be excluded. But in Anton's case, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:16.280 in any event, his fee is and he's in contract 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.160 is going from nine to seventy a month to one 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:20.400 thy and thirty ruand. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.960 So an extra sixty round a month, yeah, he says. 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.480 I call the club, was bounced around into called head 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.400 office and head office Tommy that they increase every contract 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.480 in January, regardless of the member having signed a contract 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.920 at a set price. And I was told it is 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:40.199 what it is in those exact words. Yes. So then 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.640 we heard from Leslie Gibson, who'd been listening to the 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.040 show last week. She said same story. Both she and 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.880 her husband got notifications from Virgin Active Sun Valley. The 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.360 other couple also with Sun Valley. By the way, a 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.480 butt a fee increase in January, hers is going up 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.880 fifty rand a month from eight twenty to eight seventy. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:03.120 It's not in considerable amount, so I said last week. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.720 Then that's not fair. That shouldn't be happening. And I 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.280 repeated this in an email to Version Active. I said, 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:13.760 I can understand and increase affecting new contracts, but existing ones, 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.880 how is that justified? I said, I'm guessing there's a 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.000 line in the contract which permits it. But the member, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.960 the other party to the agreement, has no right to 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.160 change any of the material conditions. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:26.760 Now you didn't stop there either. 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.720 Besides your gut feeling that it's unfair, you also feel 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.440 this practice might well run foul of the CPA, and 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.200 specifically section forty eight. Won't you explain which clauses of 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.880 section forty eight? Pointed out to Version actally, right. 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:44.040 So it's the section forty eight is the section on unfair, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:49.040 unreasonable and unjust contract terms, right, So, as I'm simplifying it, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.240 but these are the words in that section. As I'm 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.480 not simplifying, I'm editing it. This a supply I must 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.280 not offer to supply or into an agreement to supply 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.480 any good services on terms that are unfair, unreasonable, or unjust. 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.679 And that would be the case if it was excessively 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.960 one sided in favor of any person other than the consumer. 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.079 So they can ear on the side of being more 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.199 favorable to the consumer than the supplier, but not the 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.959 other around. So one signed in favor of let's say 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:25.319 the company, and b that the terms of the transactional 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.760 agreement are so adverse to the consumer as to be inequitable, 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.560 or the fact, nature and effect of that term conditional 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.840 notice was not drawn to the attention of the consumer 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.520 in a conspicuous manner and form likely to track their attention. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.680 In other words, it's snuck into the small print and 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.760 the third page of the agreement where most people probably 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.000 wouldn't read it. But it's an oh, it's not a 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.560 it's not an either. In other words, if you bring 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.679 it to the attention of the customer, it doesn't mean 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.240 that it's not inequitable. 0:10:58.200 --> 0:10:58.520 Things. 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.720 It's two boxes need to Yeah, okay, So you asked 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.360 virgin Active about. 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:08.400 This, I said, did you is this fact the contract 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:09.760 is going to go up in January, even if you 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:11.800 sign up in December, did you bring how is that 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:15.839 brought to the attention of members and are they actually 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.640 required to initial next to that important clause? And then 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.400 I brought up another case which was similar to the 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.560 one we handled recently. Member of the woman the doctor 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:25.679 she joined us. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.480 Yes, who signed up her son thinking it was for 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.880 a three month contract, but actually it was one month. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.040 It was actually for a year. And what she thought 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:34.559 was the fee was just the joining. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.120 Fee exactly, so it was three ninety nine. You can 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:38.960 join it. She said, he just wants to go for 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.280 a month a night, and they said, we'll take a 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.920 month's membership. Brother. Anyway, she never got a copy of 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.560 the contract and she we didn't read it. She admitted that, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.320 and she was now then committed to twelve months, which 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.360 we got her out of. But in this case, kay Lash, 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.360 this was Virgin Active and Pavilion outside of Durban. He 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.920 was told it three twenty a month, but the first 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.880 abit order was four seventy five. He's got proof that 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.200 it was supposed to be three twenty. He was to 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.520 cancel without penalty, and he didn't. He says he didn't 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.360 get a contract either. It wasn't emailed him, and it wasn't. 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.040 And I'm sure they told us when we covered that 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.520 case with the doctor that that was very unusual, that 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.360 she hadn't received a copy of the contrary rare and that. 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.920 What's the regal rumor I had to get to get 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:27.320 it the contract. So yeah, so he was to cancel 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.720 without penalty. And then Virgin Active's case, I'm not mistaken. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.439 It's forty percent of remaining subscriptions there on the better end, 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.080 but that's still a lot of money to pay out. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:34.520 Okay. 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.640 So you took his case, and he took the examples 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:38.440 of those who've had the fee who've had the fee 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:40.319 increase in the middle of a contract, and you put 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:41.480 them to Virgin Active one. 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.000 Did they say okay? Virgin Active head of customer Service 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:48.600 Jackie Walter said, Virgin Active contracts clearly provide for an 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.800 annual fee adjustment effective each January, including on fixed term 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.240 agreements that's twelve or twenty four months. It's not applied 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.800 arbitrarily or retrospectively. It's a standard term of the agreement 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.240 that members accept at the point of sign up, she said. 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:10.679 She said that that clause is clearly disclosed under a 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.480 heading a section headed pricing, and they all are required 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.040 to initial front and back of the contract to confirm 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.520 that they have read and understood the term interesting front 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.199 and back of the contract. I don't know if that 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.320 means actually at that for us increased term, because that 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.840 should that would be ideal. I mean people are used 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.120 to initially at the bottom of forms. But anyway, let's 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.200 I didn't until I'm reading this out now, I didn't 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.559 think to query it. She said, Our sales consultants are 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.319 trained to verbally highlight the clause with the sales process, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.959 and so we don't believe that the provision falls file 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:54.600 of section forty eight. Because it's clearly disclosed, not hidden 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.079 or discretionally, consistently applied to all members and accepted by 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:03.000 the consumer. It doesn't mean that it's not excessively one side. 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:04.520 I was going to say, so she's spoken to the 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.079 second part about it being it must be disclosed clearly, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.160 but she hasn't there spoken to the issue. 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:11.480 Of the nature whether it's all fair. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.360 Yeah, and just clause that it is such an inequitable 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.800 situation that's one party. So the one party, the gym 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.480 has the right to make changes Willy nilly, and the 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:21.520 other party does not. 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.560 And bare amount of any amount for January of twenty 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.920 For this year twenty twenty five, the increases were ten percent, 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:30.320 so it's way. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.400 Above Well, just wait until you hear what's coming, because 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:34.840 we've got some that are substantially more than that, Wendy 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.560 in some of the new cases on a related one 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.360 that's come true to us. But before we get to that, Okay, 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:42.880 what did she say about kay Lash's case where he 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:44.800 was told you're signing for three twenty and then the 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:46.520 debit went off at four seventy five. 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.520 Yeah, so she said, we're currently reviewing. This was yesterday lunchtime. 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.840 We're currently reviewing Kellisi's case. If there's been any discrepancy 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.080 between the greed fee and the debit auto amount, or 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.080 if there was failure to provide him with a copy 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.480 of the contract, this will be treated as an exception 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.240 and addressed directly with the cast. With the member, I said, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.480 I'm looking forward to the update and I haven't had 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.360 it yet, but I'm sure it will come and we can. 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.680 I'll definitely report back on that, but it will be 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:18.000 concerning given that they were at pains to say that 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.440 the contracts always sent out. We don't know, maybe they 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:22.120 were Maybe he didn't see it in box, he said, 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.280 he locked, he couldn't find it, but okay, okay, always 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:26.720 pushed to see a copy of that contract. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:27.240 Okay. 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.200 So, in a similar vein to the initial complaints, Benita 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.400 writing and to say, my husband and son signed up 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.440 with Virgin Active table View in October. They've just been 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.520 informed their fees will increase by twenty eight percent. And 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.000 when my husband queried, he was also told it's in 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.040 the contract they can increase and there is nothing he 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.200 can do now. Before we get to the other even 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.360 higher than that exception, Wendy, let's just circle back. 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:51.840 I mean you've reached out. 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.880 Virgin Active have responded defending their terms, saying we don't 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:56.840 believe anything here is foul of the CPA. 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:58.160 Is that it do? 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.480 We just accept the situation and ar you want a 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.080 case by case basis for relief. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.160 No, So I was thinking when I was preparing for 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:08.840 today's show that I need in the new year, engage 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:13.320 with the regulators, Engage with the NCC, Engage with the 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.960 consumer goods and services onwards to say, there is this 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.440 section forty eight, I think this is the case, and 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.440 it's not just Jim's. It's software companies do it as well. Wow, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.200 you know it is. It has to be a classic 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.080 case of a one sided contract of one company, one 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.800 with the company one part of it can increase unilaterally 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.920 at their discretion. I mean put it up. By whatever 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.160 you sign, you committed, and if you want to get out, 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.600 you've got to pay a massive termination penalty. I cannot 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.480 for the life of being I've been grappling with this 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.240 Act for since which was still a bill fifteen sixteen, 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.440 seventeen years. I think this is a classic case where 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.080 we should push chat. I'm going to challenge it. That's 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.920 mine for reform of it, yeah, or for a reform 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.880 or for it for those that are doing it to 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:02.960 be told, it's a contravention of Section forty eight. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.359 Okay, So certainly a story to be continued in the 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.240 new year. Now, after the eyewitness news, we will bring 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.520 in what has happened very specifically at one individual, Virgin 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.240 Active Club, which has a lot of members, very hot 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.679 under the collar. And you will understand why when you 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.200 hear the kind of sums of money that are involved. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.560 If you are a user of the club in question. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.399 I bet you already know what I'm talking about, and 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.520 you're welcome to join the conversation. 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.359 Consumer Talk with Wendy Norla. 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.840 You can join the conversation right now. 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.520 I must just preempt this next bit of the conversation 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.320 to say that this is an additional strand to the 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.560 conversation about Virgin Active increases which came in later, and 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.920 we haven't put it to Virgin Active for a response. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:47.800 I'll put my hand up and say I didn't see it. 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:52.360 Okay, I'm to hearing your response to it, because we've 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.520 heard now from several different listeners as well as from 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.000 one of our colleagues, who have all been impacted by 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:57.520 the same thing. 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.359 And that is the substantial refurbishment that has. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.200 Gone on down the road from us at the Point, 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.320 as some people call it, the green Point Virgin Active. 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.159 And when doy you mentioned that some of the increases, 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.080 the standard January increases have been ten percent, we heard 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.040 from table View twenty eight percent. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:15.400 Listen to this. 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.120 So Greenpoint not just refurbished, but a complete revamp into 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.720 a completely new kind of club, their premium brand collection 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.439 clubs when it reopens in January. It's an entirely new space. 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.640 It's got a spa, and it's got coworking facilities, et cetera, 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.360 et cetera. Added on, so a very bells and whistles 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.840 upgrade to what was there before. 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:37.639 But here's the kicker. 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.280 The people who were members there before are being off 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:44.119 at the option two options. Basically, you can continue your 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.840 membership here at a vastly inflated rate, or it's okay 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.000 if you don't want to do that, you can go 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.080 and train at Wembley Square or Forshare. Now, our colleague 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:53.680 who lives on the far end of cepoint is saying, 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.920 for me to get to Wembley Square or in Rush 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.639 our track after work forty five minutes drive, it's just 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.119 not a liable alternative for her. But neither is the 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.439 fee increase that comes with it. So here are a 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.679 few examples. Ryan's saying, they closed that gym, let everyone 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.800 know that they would be upgrading it over six months. 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.320 We then got males to say it's changed from being 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.560 a normal gym to the so called new country club. 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.720 The fee is going from six hundred to eighteen hundred 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:21.879 round a month in his case, so that's tripling the 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.520 fee and same story. If you don't like it, move 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.719 to Wembley or Forshaw. Listen to this listener. Jenna, who 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.919 wrote to us, had two children with associated memberships who 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:36.080 were using that gym, and she said, listen to this. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:36.399 Okay. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.120 Jenna's daughter who was paying four hundred and fifty round 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.679