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Speaker 1: The Human Sciences Research Council has just done a survey,

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Speaker 1: a study for the Electoral Commission, and what it reveals

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Speaker 1: is disturbing for those of us who think democracy is,

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Speaker 1: if not the best thing, then since slicepred certainly the

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Speaker 1: least worst thing when it comes to governance, since slice spread.

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Speaker 1: Not that slicepread has ever played a role in governance,

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Speaker 1: but never mind. Belief in the system of democracy is

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Speaker 1: slipping sharply, the demand for democracy dropping from sixty five

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Speaker 1: percent in the early two thousands to just twenty six

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Speaker 1: percent today. Lawson, I do of the Committee for the

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Speaker 1: Advancement of the South African Council for the Advancement of

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Speaker 1: the South African Constitution, joins us Now, Lawson, good afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. I mean, I'm depressed because one would

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Speaker 1: like it to be better. One would like democracy to

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Speaker 1: have served the populace better. So the populace desperately wanted

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Speaker 1: it to continue. But given the way that most people,

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Speaker 1: and poor people especially have been treated by governance, it's

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Speaker 1: not surprising that only one in four kind of wanted

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Speaker 1: to continue.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, John, it isn't surprising. I mean, if we look

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Speaker 2: at for example, you know, voters who have registered in

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Speaker 2: recent years in recent elections has been constantly falling. In

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four election, we only had a voter

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Speaker 2: registration rate of sixty five percent, which meant that thirty

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Speaker 2: five percent of people who were eligible to vote didn't

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Speaker 2: even bother to register. Let's learn those that didn't bother

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Speaker 2: to turn up on election day, which gave us an

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Speaker 2: overall turnout of only thirty eight percent of South Africans

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Speaker 2: that elected the government that we now have. And so

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Speaker 2: this has been an increasing concern over many years. It's

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Speaker 2: borne out by several Aprobarometer surveys over recent years as well,

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Speaker 2: which shows that, you know, more and more people are

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Speaker 2: dissatisfied with the way democracy is playing out, the kinds

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Speaker 2: of dividends that they are receiving, or rather not receiving

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Speaker 2: from the democratic process, and so levels of frustration have

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Speaker 2: settled in. And you know that's the very same Aprobarometer

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Speaker 2: survey from last year also showed that there was a

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Speaker 2: majority of people who favored a military dictatorship if it

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Speaker 2: would deliver services to them rather than democratic process. So

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Speaker 2: I think there's an awful lot to be concerned about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a military dictatorship is not going to give services

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Speaker 1: to them. The only the best option is democracy. I'm

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Speaker 1: convinced of that, and I suspect you are as well, Lawson.

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Speaker 1: And at one level, the answer is very simple, and

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Speaker 1: that is make democracy serve citizens better than it's doing

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Speaker 1: at the moment. But how you get it to achieve

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Speaker 1: that fate is much more complex and difficult.

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Speaker 2: Indeed it is. I mean that that's exactly the issue

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Speaker 2: that's got to be tackled. We need to have confidence

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Speaker 2: in the democratic structures. We need to have confidence in

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Speaker 2: the people that we elect. And I think for me, John,

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest dilemmas I see and the deficits

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Speaker 2: I see in our society is the lack of accountability.

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Speaker 2: And this is demonstrated, I mean, you know, none more

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Speaker 2: so clearly than through the corruption scandal after corruption scandal

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Speaker 2: over the last fifteen to twenty years. And we see

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Speaker 2: very very little consequences for that kind of behavior. It

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Speaker 2: undermines respect for democracy and for the rule of law.

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Speaker 2: And so until we begin to fix that accountability deficit

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Speaker 2: and hold people accountable when they've broken the law or

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Speaker 2: not abided by the Constitution. I think we're going to see,

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Speaker 2: you know, these levels of dissatisfaction continue lower voter participation

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Speaker 2: in elections, which then calls into question the very legitimacy

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Speaker 2: of those governance structures that I elected.

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Speaker 1: There is the role that authority must play the various

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Speaker 1: institutions that are charged with delivering a democratic dividend to

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Speaker 1: the citizens, And there are processes underway which are faltering,

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Speaker 1: but at least they are moving forward to a great degree.

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Speaker 1: Funny mus, I'm all of the Chief of Police being

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Speaker 1: summoned to court, and other generals and brigadiers and colonels

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Speaker 1: appearing in court, and the but Lunger Commission of Inquiry.

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Speaker 1: But then there's the very what would you call a

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Speaker 1: teppered response to the recommendations of the Zonder Commission. So

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Speaker 1: we kind of lose one win one on that front.

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Speaker 1: What's the citizens response stability to get a better democratic

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Speaker 1: dividend delivered to us? Is it around choosing different parties?

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Speaker 1: What do we do? How do we hold the institutions

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Speaker 1: that are supposed to deliver democracy to us? How do

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Speaker 1: we hold them to account in a more successful way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, I mean I think the issue John comes

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Speaker 2: down to the fact that you know, we're designed to

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Speaker 2: be a participatory democracy and not merely an electoral one.

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Speaker 2: So it's not just required of us as citizens to

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Speaker 2: go and cast our vote once every five years and

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Speaker 2: then fold our arms and hope that something that comes

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Speaker 2: along for us. We've got to work for this democracy

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Speaker 2: as citizens, as communities, and you know, there are structures

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Speaker 2: in place, they don't always work well. You know, we

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Speaker 2: have reward committees at a local government level that should

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Speaker 2: be engaged in community issues, holding councilors and the municipalities

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Speaker 2: to account. You know, we should be in aging with

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Speaker 2: parliament and provincial legislatures on a more regular basis to

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Speaker 2: actually ask questions and you know, where things are not happening,

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Speaker 2: ask why they're not happening, and you know, when are

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Speaker 2: things going to be fixed? So, you know, those those

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Speaker 2: are some of the initiatives that we can take. So

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Speaker 2: it's not just a question of being passive citizens in

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Speaker 2: a democracy. We've got to be active citizens. But we

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Speaker 2: also need the mechanisms for accountability so that when these

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Speaker 2: concerns are ways, there are actually consequences. And one aspect

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Speaker 2: of that has got to be John the issue of

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Speaker 2: electoral reform, which I think we've you know, we've kicked

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Speaker 2: that can down the road for over twenty years now,

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Speaker 2: and that moment cannot be delayed any longer because it's

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Speaker 2: not a solva bullet to solve this problem. But you know,

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Speaker 2: having elected representatives that are more directly accountable in defined

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Speaker 2: geographical constituencies will make will make a difference and will

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Speaker 2: enable voters to be more engaged because you'll be able

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Speaker 2: to know exactly who your local MP is and get

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Speaker 2: him or her to take up issues that affect you,

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Speaker 2: your family, and your community.

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Speaker 1: And finally, Lawson, if a similar study survey were to

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Speaker 1: be done in other democracies of the sort of Western

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Speaker 1: liberal kind that we have participatory democracies that we have

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Speaker 1: here in South Africa, I suspect the results wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: that different.

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Speaker 2: No, they're not. And you know, this has in fact

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Speaker 2: been a global trend over the last several years. And

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Speaker 2: you know we've seen lower levels about to turn out

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Speaker 2: in many you know, so called established Western liberal democracies

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Speaker 2: similar facing similar kinds of issues as we are in

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Speaker 2: terms of voter participation, in participation in democratic processes. More generally,

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Speaker 2: we've seen the rise of populism in many parts of

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Speaker 2: the world as well, which you know a result of

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Speaker 2: this and the you know, and in South Africa we

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Speaker 2: have you know, this huge economic crisis of you know,

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Speaker 2: massive levels of unemployment and you know, if you are

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Speaker 2: struggling to put bread on the table for your family,

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Speaker 2: you know, the last thing you're thinking about is you know, well,

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Speaker 2: if voting for a different person or a different party

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Speaker 2: is going to make a difference, it doesn't seem to.

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Speaker 2: So you know, people have been have been disappointed for

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Speaker 2: so long now that these levels of frustration are playing

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Speaker 2: out in stayways from from the electoral process itself.

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Speaker 1: Laws and I do of Ksex thank you for your

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Speaker 1: contribution