1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: When I got back late yesterday and started trying to 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: catch up with what had what had been happening the 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: news and the commentary on the news. One of the 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: things I read was Johnny Steinberg's Monday column on News 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: twenty four where he suggests a new electoral system, one 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: which is unlikely to be introduced and perhaps not the 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: time to go into it, but he writes that our 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: current electoral system has served South Africa badly. The DA 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: has cordered much of the racial minority vote, but it 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: is locked in and struggles to break out. Our low 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: threshold proportional representation system ensures this because it rewards small, 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: narrow parties, parties that rely on colored or white chauvinism, 13 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: for preventing expansive parties like the DA from building broader support. 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: The result is perverse. In twenty twenty four, nine out 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: of ten black voters supported the A and C in 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: its two offshoots, the FF and the MK Party. Eight 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: out of ten whites voted DA. For that to happen 18 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: a full three decades after the ender of apart eight 19 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: is just horribly dispiriting. An electorate that keeps voting as 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: if it lives in the past will never become the 21 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: foundation of something new. And I remember a letter that 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: I read in the Sunday Times of a couple of 23 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: weeks ago. I tried to find it but I couldn't, 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: but the gist of it was, the DA will never 25 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: grow until it has a credible black leader. The DA 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: is about to get a new leader, and it is 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: going to be a white leader. Yes, there is now 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: somebody who is challenging who's black, but it's not going 29 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: to happen. 30 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: You know. 31 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: Some of the reporting has said scrap comes. No, it's 32 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: not going to be a scrap. Jordanhill Lewis is going 33 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: to win. Then I had a look because the DA 34 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: has now announced all the candidates for the elections that 35 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: are coming up next month. So for chairpersons of the 36 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: Federal Finance Committee, they're three. 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: There are. 38 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: About a dozen for the three deputy chairpersons of the 39 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: Federal Council. There are three for chairperson of the Federal Council, 40 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: and when it comes to the deputy federal chairpersons, there 41 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: are seven people in for that. For the federal chairperson 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: there two I'm a mayor and Silium Zimanga. And for 43 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: the Federal leader, it is the man who's going to win. 44 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: Jordan Hill Lewis and somebody with very little traction in 45 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: the party see was Cisiu Dionnase. And I'm sorry, Stephen 46 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: Steve Friedman for making you wait through all of this introduction. 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: But in the light of that letter to the Sunday 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Times and what Johnny Steinberg wrote in his column, I'm 49 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: looking at that and probably eighty percent of the names 50 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: on that list are black, and I wondered, if they 51 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: get elected, does that change things. I hate to be 52 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, but that's the way we vote. Stephen, Good afternoon. 53 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 2: So look, I mean I'm not quite true where to start. 54 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: Just to slay one point, I lose count of how 55 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: many things are wrong with Johnny's side to its arguments. Okay, 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 2: I think he fundamentally misunderstands the problem, and I could 57 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: go on about that at great length. You know this 58 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: idea that somehow, you know, people somehow you know change 59 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: their identities when you have a democracy, I mean, it 60 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: doesn't happen anywhere in the world quite frankly. So you 61 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: know the fact that people vote for particular parties because 62 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: they feel that they the leaders look like them and 63 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: have the same experiences in them. I mean that happens 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: in every democracy that I know, and this idea that 65 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: we're somehow bad people because we do the same is 66 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: very odd. But I think one also doesn't need to 67 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: be simplistic about it. I mean, this argument that the 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: DA is going to become a massively popular party with people, 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: you know, with black voters if they have a black leader. 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: I mean, I had a black leader and it didn't 71 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: change anything. So I think that misses the point as well, 72 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: because the point is do people feel that your party 73 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: speaks for people like that? That's what this determines the 74 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: way people vote, But. 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: It might it not be the case Stephen, sorry to interrupt, 76 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: that the more people there are in the leadership of 77 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: a particular party who come from the same cultural, historical, 78 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: sociological economic background that you do, the more likely it 79 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: is that you will find that they do speak to you. 80 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 2: Well, they're not going to speak to you, John, if 81 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: you have a party most of whose voters are people 82 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 2: who are not black and who live in subbits and 83 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 2: are going wrong with people are entitled to representation. I'm 84 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: just saying that, and I've said this repeatedly, and I 85 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: consider where is to say it, Okay, people vote their identities. 86 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: The identity which the DA represents is the identity of 87 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: a minority of people, and the DA needs to recognize that. 88 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that you're you know, out of 89 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: the picture. That doesn't mean that you don't have a say, 90 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 2: because you know, we are living in a changing South 91 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: Africa in which and I'm talking about body politics here 92 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: in which coalitions are going to become central, et cetera. 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: So if you are a party which represents a minority, 94 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: you can be part of government. You can be part 95 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: of process if you strategize right and if you send 96 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: a message to your coalition partners that you're actually available 97 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: to work with them. So the problem, and I would 98 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: say the same thing in many cases about the AMC, 99 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 2: that we're not talking about the you know, the problem 100 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: is respecting your elition partners, respecting other parties even as 101 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: you compete with them, and making sure that that enables 102 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: you to have a say in government. So you don't 103 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: need black people in some leadership positions in order to 104 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: massively increase your vote, because that's not going to happen. 105 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: You need people, you know, who can signal to other 106 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: political parties that you you know, you are more open, 107 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: that you know you are more willing to work with them. 108 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: So I think that's the name of the game in 109 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: the future, rather than you know, this belief that somehow, 110 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 2: if the DA has a black person in charge, it's 111 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: going to become a fundamentally different party. Because it became 112 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: a fundamentally different party, ninety percent of the people who 113 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: vote for it today wouldn't vote for it anymore, and 114 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: it could become a very small party. 115 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: So we we we don't have a realistic prospect. And 116 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: I know that this is mean, Steve, and I've had 117 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: the stream since nineteen ninety the second of February. Well, 118 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: I've had it since before then, that we will become 119 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: a party that doesn't vote to our identities. And I mean, 120 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: you're suggesting, and you're suggesting with your normal impeccable logic, 121 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: that that's not in our future. That the best we 122 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: can have is coalition politics of relatively like minded parties 123 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: working together. But we're never going to have a fifty 124 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: percent plus party. Well maybe not never, but certainly not 125 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future going to have a fifty percent 126 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: plus party that is racially representative of South Africa. 127 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: We have a government which is rare repressed, which we 128 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: probably have more realists at the moment, but you get 129 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: that through coalitions. Now, I don't find any of this 130 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: particularly negatives. Quite frankly, I mean when I you know, 131 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: I keep a reaser at the point I made earlier, 132 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: I would make this point of that, you know, just 133 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: about every other country on the planet which which has 134 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: a democratic system. I mean, look what happens, you know, 135 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: America a while ago, and you know, everybody announced to 136 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: the world that America was no longer interested in race 137 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: because it had a black president. Well, just about everything 138 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: we've seen for the last ten years has been a 139 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: backlasher against the fact that they had a black president. 140 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: Has been people who believe that white civilization is threatened 141 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: in America because they have a black president. So, you know, 142 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: this is not a peculiarly South African thing. And to me, 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 2: a situation like the one we have at the moment 144 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: in which people vote their identities, but across those divisions 145 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: you could have people cooperating in government, not only at 146 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 2: the national level, but at times at other levels too. 147 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: It doesn't strike me as particularly big in a country 148 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 2: with our history in with Oar Division. 149 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: Thank you very very much, indeed to Professor Stephen Friedmane. 150 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: Always is interesting to listen to the man and think 151 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: about what he says.