WEBVTT - Consumer Talk 2: Tech helps to access unclaimed benefits

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<v Speaker 1>Join the conversation. Join the conversation. You're with Kate talk.

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<v Speaker 1>So millions of South Africans are unaware that they have

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<v Speaker 1>insurance or retirement policies that align dormant which have funds

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<v Speaker 1>which are rightfully theirs. It's estimated that there's about ninety

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<v Speaker 1>billion Rand in unclaimed dormant assets in South Africa and

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<v Speaker 1>according to the Financial Sector Conduct Authority Report, the retirement

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<v Speaker 1>industry owes approximately forty eight billion of that to nearly

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<v Speaker 1>four and a half million of US. Around twenty percent

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<v Speaker 1>of the beneficiaries are owed less than one thousand round each,

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<v Speaker 1>which is an amount really too low to justify then

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<v Speaker 1>the cost of tracing. Last year, the company Robin Hood

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<v Speaker 1>Unclaimed Benefits, which is supported by Standard Bank, launched a

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<v Speaker 1>tech enabled solution to tackle this challenge. And I'm joining

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<v Speaker 1>joined on the line via zoom by Robin Hood CEO

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<v Speaker 1>Rowan Gordon. Now, Rowan, good to have you with us

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<v Speaker 1>this afternoon. Tell us a little bit more about the company.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you get started, who's involved and what's the

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<v Speaker 1>purpose of the company.

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<v Speaker 2>Hice, Sir Jan, thanks thanks very much for having me

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<v Speaker 2>on the show today. We started this business a while ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And to a bunch of people that included Michael, you're

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<v Speaker 2>Don and a Philo Remolenisia and myself, and we were

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<v Speaker 2>brainstorming about how we could do something that was meaningful

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<v Speaker 2>for society and do something that was you know, scalable

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<v Speaker 2>and whatever decent sized impact. And when we came across

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<v Speaker 2>the quantum of the problem being ninety billion, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a phenomenal amount of money and actually stops and

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<v Speaker 2>ponders it for a while. So to try and find

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<v Speaker 2>a solution which could solve this problem, we certainly thought

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<v Speaker 2>that would be something worth mobilizing around.

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<v Speaker 1>We've heard that according to this twenty twenty two report,

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<v Speaker 1>there is an enormous amount of money in unclaimed assets,

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<v Speaker 1>some ninety billion. I mentioned that the retirement industry makes

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<v Speaker 1>up a portion of that. What are some of the

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<v Speaker 1>other industries where these benefits are sitting.

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<v Speaker 2>Jane, So the retirement industry is probably the most tightly

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<v Speaker 2>regulated and that answer is most clearly kind of managed.

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<v Speaker 2>The other industries include unclaimed dividends. There are a range

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<v Speaker 2>of be share schemes. There's all sorts of we're working

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<v Speaker 2>on one matter for the Compensation Commission of Occupational diseases,

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<v Speaker 2>So that's where vast amounts of money have been set

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<v Speaker 2>aside for mine workers who may have picked up injuries

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<v Speaker 2>or disabilities in their working lives. There's a huge amount

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<v Speaker 2>of unclaimed or let's call it unpaid insurance moneys where

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<v Speaker 2>an insurance event has happened and the cash hasn't been

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<v Speaker 2>paid out. There are unclaimed bank accounts, so where people

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<v Speaker 2>are actually in credit and don't know that. So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the list is vast, and it's long, and if there

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<v Speaker 2>were more kind of strict definitions, I guess that number

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<v Speaker 2>would be substantially bigger than ninety billion in total.

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned that quite a significant portion of the beneficiaries

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<v Speaker 1>are owed less than one thousand round, which might explain

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<v Speaker 1>how people sort of forget that they are, that they've

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<v Speaker 1>got these policies that they go unclaimed. But that still

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<v Speaker 1>means that there's an awful lot of people for whom

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<v Speaker 1>they probably are owed quite a bit of money. Why

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<v Speaker 1>is that unclaimed and why does it become so difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to trace them?

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<v Speaker 2>So jet part of the plants people don't realize when

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<v Speaker 2>these money is accrue to them. So I mean, as

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<v Speaker 2>a personal example, when my wife stopped working. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>she was I guess, round about thirty, and she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>realize that she would have a retirement benefit attached to

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<v Speaker 2>those few years of employment. So I think many people

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<v Speaker 2>think that this is only kind of blue collar workers

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<v Speaker 2>who've lost contact, and I think is absolutely wrong. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there are many many people who don't think about retirement

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<v Speaker 2>when they are younger. And every time people change jobs

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<v Speaker 2>and move between employers, they're probably leaving a small amount

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<v Speaker 2>of retirement funds that's actually rightfully, there is behind and

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<v Speaker 2>if one's not on top of it at that young age,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, these things become lost. You lose contact with

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<v Speaker 2>those old employers, and I guess that's how the thing's

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<v Speaker 2>grown over time.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is sort of where your platform comes in.

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<v Speaker 1>How does it make it easier for people to check

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<v Speaker 1>for their benefits?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let being start by getting back to the root

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<v Speaker 2>cause of the problem here. So the root cause of

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<v Speaker 2>the problem that there has never been a business model

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle which has enabled anyone to make any

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<v Speaker 2>kind of meaningful investment to try and solve this problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Because there's been a very small amount of technology and

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<v Speaker 2>whenever people were looking for people who are tracing. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a very manual process. It's literally picking up a telephone

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<v Speaker 2>dialing a whole lot of people till you find the

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<v Speaker 2>right per When you do find the right person, you'd

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<v Speaker 2>ask them to hand over a copy of their ID,

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<v Speaker 2>a copy of their banking details, their tax details, their

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<v Speaker 2>maritals certificates, proof of address. So when you are approached

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<v Speaker 2>by someone and they start asking for all this information

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<v Speaker 2>and you don't have much details and why you're handing

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<v Speaker 2>it over, you know, people are naturally skeptical to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>And not only that, but the financial services industry has

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<v Speaker 2>done a super good job about discouraging citizens from just

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<v Speaker 2>engaging with people who promising a pot of gold. So

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<v Speaker 2>you've got this problem that it's a very manual process

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<v Speaker 2>where there's a high propensity for fraud and scamming, and

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<v Speaker 2>people have been educated not to engage with people. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know that all of that needs to have a

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<v Speaker 2>fundamentally different solution, and this is where you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>discovered some alternatives. So the first thing we said is

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<v Speaker 2>that any person who has access to a financial asset,

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<v Speaker 2>so that's an unclammed dividend and insurance policy, a pension fund,

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<v Speaker 2>it is highly likely and I'm restricting it here to

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<v Speaker 2>living South African citizens, but if you have access to

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<v Speaker 2>a financial asset, it's highly likely that you have a

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<v Speaker 2>bank account. So what we've done here, and the question

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<v Speaker 2>you ask is how have we solved the problem? We've

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<v Speaker 2>done two things. One is that we've actually gone to

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<v Speaker 2>the retail banking industry and we've worked with the retail

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<v Speaker 2>banking industry to aggregate that banking information. So if for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>you were with insurer A and you had a benefit

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<v Speaker 2>that was due to you, we would then take this

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<v Speaker 2>list of benefits from the insurer and we'd go across

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<v Speaker 2>to the banking industry and say do you bank at

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<v Speaker 2>Bank A or Bank B or at Bank C, And

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<v Speaker 2>when we find you, we have the ability to reunite

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<v Speaker 2>you with that money. So that is the first thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and we call that straight through processing, and we're able

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<v Speaker 2>to do that on smaller amounts where there's a limited

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<v Speaker 2>financial risk in the system. So we're dealing with amounts

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<v Speaker 2>that are less than twenty thousand grand any particular transaction,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one can set about directly paying these amounts

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<v Speaker 2>back into people's bank accounts. The second thing we did

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<v Speaker 2>then was we created a smooth banking app where people

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<v Speaker 2>can engage and this is really for the bigger amounts

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<v Speaker 2>where through the app we'd want to gather additional information

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<v Speaker 2>to confirm security issues. So nowadays, when you engage with

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<v Speaker 2>your banking app, you literally look at your phone, the

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<v Speaker 2>phone recognizes you. You know, we have the ability through

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<v Speaker 2>the digital portal of the phone to collect additional information.

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<v Speaker 2>We can ask you to take a selfie, you can

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<v Speaker 2>triangulate that with home affairs information, and you can get

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<v Speaker 2>additional documents that people can take photographs of and you

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<v Speaker 2>can scan them all in and you can compete your

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<v Speaker 2>administrative processes very quickly on the app, which then facilitates

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<v Speaker 2>the payments. So those in essence, just to summarize, those

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<v Speaker 2>were the two learnings in this process. One is going

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<v Speaker 2>new the retail banking industry and the second thing is

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<v Speaker 2>going to invest in a proper bit of technology in

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<v Speaker 2>the form of an app that can help digitize this

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<v Speaker 2>whole process.

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned in the introduction that you are working with

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<v Speaker 1>Standard Bank. How does how does that help specifically, Well, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Can imagine now so here we have a bright idea

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<v Speaker 2>to go and tackle a ninety billion round problem. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>It certainly was helpful that when we went and explained

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<v Speaker 2>the art of the possible to stand a bank to

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<v Speaker 2>have a big brand associated with our activities here. And

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, one of the super useful things that

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<v Speaker 2>the bank did was that took us straight to National Treasury.

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<v Speaker 2>We went to the regulators. We went to explain what

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<v Speaker 2>the ideas were in the solution. And first it is

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<v Speaker 2>to try and confirm that we were doing things that

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<v Speaker 2>were supported by a national treasury. So I know that

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<v Speaker 2>National Treasury has been very busy trying to deal with

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<v Speaker 2>the unclaimed benefits problem themselves, and we wanted to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that we were working against anything that they were

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<v Speaker 2>trying to do. So that is a super helpful thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the second thing is that certainly we've been

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<v Speaker 2>through let's call it bank grade scrutiny in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>setting up all the systems, looking at data security and

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<v Speaker 2>making sure that everything's poppy compliant and you know, really

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<v Speaker 2>closing off all the questions that should be asked of

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<v Speaker 2>a normal kind of startup company.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder the age of some of these some of

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<v Speaker 1>these benefits, I mean, how long are we talking that

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<v Speaker 1>people are sitting there unbeknownst to them with funds in

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<v Speaker 1>their name.

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<v Speaker 2>Look that you're going to get the full spectrum there.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're going to be some really old people

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<v Speaker 2>and they're gonna be some really young people. So are

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<v Speaker 2>there are many And the problem actually arises often in

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<v Speaker 2>younger people. So it arises in the context of people

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<v Speaker 2>aren't aware of the fact that they've accrued these benefits.

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<v Speaker 2>It might only be then when you get to your

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<v Speaker 2>fifties and sixties when you start thinking about retire, meant

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<v Speaker 2>that you you know, you go and think about, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>where you may have worked in that So the source

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<v Speaker 2>of the problem in the message of the young people listening.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time you change jobs and you do these things,

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<v Speaker 2>there are financial benefits accruing to one as one journeys

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<v Speaker 2>through life.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that Liberty Life has been one of the

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<v Speaker 1>first major firms to adoptor Robin Hood any other big

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<v Speaker 1>names that who were on.

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<v Speaker 2>Board, I mean, without singling out particular people, without leaving

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<v Speaker 2>out other people. We're dealing with a media twenty four

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<v Speaker 2>b E scheme which has been hugely successful, where the

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<v Speaker 2>recipients were due money. I mean, a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>moneys are not substantial individually, and that in its wealth,

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<v Speaker 2>has made it harder for the industry to go and

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<v Speaker 2>trace people. So to go through very manual processes to

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<v Speaker 2>try and pay out small amounts of money, it's virtually

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<v Speaker 2>economically suboptimized or impossible. And another solution of doing it

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<v Speaker 2>digitally and doing it quicker and easier, has made it

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<v Speaker 2>much cheaper, so that we could even pay out a

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<v Speaker 2>twenty rand payment. I mean literally, if you do twenty

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<v Speaker 2>rand a new bank at stand a bank, I can

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<v Speaker 2>put the money back into your bank account. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>really a low friction, low cost solution that's really going

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<v Speaker 2>a long way to mop up a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>old edmund that's clogging up the system. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Well you did mention Rowan that young people ought to

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<v Speaker 1>be really aware, and I consider myself one of those

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<v Speaker 1>young people, she said, tongue firmly in cheek. And so

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<v Speaker 1>while we were while we were speaking, just then I

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<v Speaker 1>went to robinhood dot org dot ZD popped my ID number. Sorry, SJ,

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<v Speaker 1>we found no benefits. Well I'll keep trying. I'll keep

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<v Speaker 1>trying because you never know. You never know what worked,

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<v Speaker 1>where where they might be hiding, what information does somebody

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<v Speaker 1>need then, as I've just done it, it literally took me

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<v Speaker 1>five seconds while we were having a chat just to

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<v Speaker 1>go and put my my details in. If there are

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<v Speaker 1>funds to be paid out, how does that process get done?

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<v Speaker 2>Basically, what happens through this process. First of all, we

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<v Speaker 2>have to go and sign up the asset holders. So

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<v Speaker 2>this example, you mentioned Liberty Life. If you had a

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<v Speaker 2>benefit at Liberty Life and we'd sign up Liberty Life,

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<v Speaker 2>that should be ingested into our process. So when you

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<v Speaker 2>came and inquired whether there's anything that was due to you,

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<v Speaker 2>if you weren't at Liberty Life, then you get a

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<v Speaker 2>zero return. But every day we are running around actively

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<v Speaker 2>trying to sign up additional asset holders. We're in discussions

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<v Speaker 2>with sunlemon Old, Mutual and Momentum and Alexander Forbes. So

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<v Speaker 2>we are trying hard to aggregate all that information. And

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<v Speaker 2>as we grow that base of information, people are going

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<v Speaker 2>to have deeper, deeper success rates. And literally all one

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<v Speaker 2>needs to do is to put in an ID number.

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, you go to the site, you put in

0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>your ID number and you will get a response, and

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<v Speaker 2>if you do have a benef for due to you,

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<v Speaker 2>there'll be a more thorough kind of sign up process

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.600
<v Speaker 2>where you do you have to take a selfie and

0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.719
<v Speaker 2>a picture of your ID and it'll go through a

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<v Speaker 2>verification process.

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<v Speaker 1>Robin, it's been wonderful to have you on the show

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<v Speaker 1>this afternoon. Appreciate Robin Rowan of Robinhood. I'm so sorry, Rowan,

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<v Speaker 1>that must be that I can't have been the first

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.680
<v Speaker 1>person to do that. Roman, If i am, I'm mortified.

0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Rowan Gordon is the CEO of Robinhood and do find

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:32.199
<v Speaker 1>yourself on the website. It is robinhood dot org, dot

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.560
<v Speaker 1>z A and just pop your ID number in