1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,040
Speaker 1: Most of the stories I've heard about whistleblows is just

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,800
Speaker 1: how absolutely awful their lives have been made, instead of

3
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,800
Speaker 1: people around them, the society at large saying thank goodness,

4
00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,280
Speaker 1: somebody was willing to step out, take some flak, yes,

5
00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 1: of course, but actually do something because the things they

6
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,600
Speaker 1: were exposing were doing widespread social and in many cases

7
00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,800
Speaker 1: here if you think of some of the huge institutions

8
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 1: like Prasa, where we've had whistleblows actually doing harm to

9
00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: an entire country, that has not always been the case.

10
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,080
Speaker 1: Government says they have a plan to try and improve it. Today,

11
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 1: Minister of Justice one mul luk Or Kurbai officially release

12
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 1: the Protected Disclosure Bill. It's looking to strengthen the protection

13
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 1: of people who disclose information on corruption or other kinds

14
00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,800
Speaker 1: of unlawful activities. Does it go far enough? Could it

15
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 1: be one of those legislative intentions where it looks great

16
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 1: on paper, but the must all behind it is absent

17
00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 1: or insufficient to really make a difference. Let's engage with

18
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,320
Speaker 1: somebody who studies this closely. Bentron is CEO of the

19
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,240
Speaker 1: Whistleblower House and organizations set up to deal with precisely

20
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,600
Speaker 1: these issues, and is with us now on seven oh

21
00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,399
Speaker 1: two drive. Mister Toron, welcome and thanks very much for

22
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,920
Speaker 1: giving us your time. Well, what does the bill bring

23
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 1: us that we didn't have before? And is this a

24
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,399
Speaker 1: step in the right direction? At least you use the word.

25
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 2: Step quite correctly. Remember there's a Chinese saying that a

26
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 2: journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

27
00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 2: Today we've taken that first step on changing legislation to

28
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,080
Speaker 2: Africa that I think will be usually beneficial and it

29
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 2: transformed the environment. Let me be and you ask me

30
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 2: the dipacific question it I rely is. It is absolutely

31
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 2: great what they've done. They've taken a comprehensive relook at

32
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 2: the particular disclosure as it was two years ago. I

33
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 2: think in July they published a discussion paper and a

34
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,839
Speaker 2: lot of comments were given. I think they've brought those

35
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,040
Speaker 2: comments into the legislation that the bill as it is today,

36
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,840
Speaker 2: and there are a few areas that we think that

37
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,120
Speaker 2: we will too find. You have studied it for the

38
00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,239
Speaker 2: whole day to day, and it covers ninety percent, if

39
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,119
Speaker 2: not more, of our concerns. The westle Blower House over

40
00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 2: the last four years have provided for very specific services.

41
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,040
Speaker 2: Number one, legal they speak to that point. Number two financial,

42
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,480
Speaker 2: number three, security to the speak to this point. The

43
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 2: one point at the absolutely silent on is psychological support.

44
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,440
Speaker 2: But what they are implying is that if the person

45
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 2: does not suffer detrimental occupational determent, then they potentially can

46
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,600
Speaker 2: afford to cover those themselves. We believe we should be

47
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 2: in the bold so we will talk to that point

48
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 2: as well.

49
00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,000
Speaker 1: So let's go through the various stages. Then whistleblower comes forward,

50
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,959
Speaker 1: They go to whoever it might be, their manager. They

51
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,800
Speaker 1: may go come to you, guys or whatever. In what

52
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,760
Speaker 1: way are they better protected? Is it because that there

53
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 1: are now legal obligations on the people to whom they

54
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,800
Speaker 1: report the crime that they believe has been committed or

55
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:26,080
Speaker 1: the wrongdoing that they believe is ongoing. Are the demands

56
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,040
Speaker 1: on the person who receives that report now much more

57
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,480
Speaker 1: stringent where they actually have to act, whereas before they

58
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 1: are able to say, yo, well, I'll look into it.

59
00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,280
Speaker 2: What we sense the PDA, the Protect Disclosure Act as

60
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: it was in the past, Whilst when they wrote the

61
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 2: legislation they made an assumption that everybody will be doing

62
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,320
Speaker 2: what ought to be done in good faith. Yes, and

63
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,760
Speaker 2: nothing in the world works in good faith. If it

64
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,760
Speaker 2: is not legislated, you can then bypass it. If it's

65
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 2: faintly word, you can then interpret it the way you

66
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 2: want to. What happens here is that and remembers the draft,

67
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 2: so it's not in form two years down the line.

68
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,640
Speaker 2: Where the responsibility is placed with timelines is with the

69
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,320
Speaker 2: recipient of the information. So within five days somebody must

70
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,279
Speaker 2: respond and say I acknowledge John, I acknowledge receipt. We

71
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 2: will investigate within ten days. You've got to make a decision,

72
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,359
Speaker 2: not notify the person. You must make a decision within

73
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,720
Speaker 2: ten days whether you will pursue the matter or not.

74
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,120
Speaker 2: And then there's there's a cycle that you and and

75
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,359
Speaker 2: it easily if it will be legislative that says you

76
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,200
Speaker 2: will have to do X Y, you will have to

77
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 2: do this by a certain data, et cetera, which means

78
00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,040
Speaker 2: there's a loop that gets closed where today you don't

79
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,080
Speaker 2: even know who to go through. Yeah, they quantify what

80
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 2: to need to happen. One of the things that we

81
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 2: are hoping in the process as this bill unfold over

82
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 2: the next year or so, is that we will be

83
00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 2: able to create an army of legal people that can

84
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 2: understand the legislation and when it gets implemented, people will

85
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,039
Speaker 2: know what to do because the problem is for Africa.

86
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 2: And one thing I like about this bald is they

87
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,479
Speaker 2: speak about communication. Communication, communication. This is the normals of

88
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 2: Africans do not know. So if John working for seven

89
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,599
Speaker 2: or two see something wrong, he doesn't know who to

90
00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,720
Speaker 2: talk to. That need to be stepped out. If you're

91
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 2: in this industry, this is where you go. If this

92
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 2: is your company, there's the company should have a designated

93
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,560
Speaker 2: persons that becomes the person that you go and talk to.

94
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 2: That person is obliged. Those kinds of structures need to

95
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 2: be certain place so that people are educated, because what

96
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 2: we need to do is to educate people that says

97
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 2: you are the right for protection. But we see if

98
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,280
Speaker 2: you don't follow the Protected Disclosure Act whatever the new

99
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 2: GOO will before when you're done, you don't take the

100
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 2: protections because you've just spoken to your boss and then

101
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,800
Speaker 2: you wanted somebody else to take responsibility. What need to

102
00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 2: have happen is that everybody I as a whistleblower potential

103
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,520
Speaker 2: whistle blower, know how I need to operate. So the

104
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,599
Speaker 2: how to is important, but the person I speak to

105
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,359
Speaker 2: must also understand their responsibility. Not tonight at the Brie

106
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 2: laugh laugh about John being very silly to come and

107
00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,279
Speaker 2: talk to me about the corruption that I know about.

108
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I want

109
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,200
Speaker 1: to better understand, though, mister Toron, is this is the

110
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 1: person to whom I report obliged to comply? Or are

111
00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 1: they obliged to act? And for me, there's more of

112
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: a There's more than just a semantic distinction between the two.

113
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,600
Speaker 1: So compliance could simply be mister Pullman, we acknowledge your thing.

114
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,599
Speaker 1: We'll be back to you in five days. Five days later,

115
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,480
Speaker 1: mister Pulman, we looked at your thing. We'll look into it,

116
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,240
Speaker 1: but we don't think there's a case. And then you know,

117
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 1: they kind of put me in a file whatever it is,

118
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 1: and I never hear about it again. Is there a

119
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,240
Speaker 1: scenario that the that the act frame the bill frames,

120
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,280
Speaker 1: where if it can be shown that the person to

121
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 1: whom I reports is failure to act was in and

122
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 1: of itself a significant I don't know if you'd call

123
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,520
Speaker 1: it a criminal act, but certainly an attempt to cover

124
00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 1: something up. I mean, we see so much tikbox compliance

125
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: in our society that I'm concerned that this could become

126
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: the same.

127
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,640
Speaker 2: That is, you put your finger right on the nub

128
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 2: that is a critical area because that is exactly where

129
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 2: the westl blower makes contact with somebody else. And if

130
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 2: and topically what happens is the worst blower would be

131
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 2: talking about their supervisor because that's your work in a

132
00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 2: specific environment. So you're not going to complain about some

133
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 2: other organization. You're going to complain about something happening in

134
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,560
Speaker 2: your work environment, right, So you want to complain about

135
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 2: somebody in your business or your supervisor, and if you

136
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 2: go outside there, normally the company have a tendency and

137
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,120
Speaker 2: natural things to protect the name and protect the person

138
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 2: et cetera. Loyalty, mispresh loyalty. But they want to do that.

139
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,360
Speaker 2: What we see which we need to sell unpack and

140
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 2: I agree with you. Let me start off by saying

141
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,320
Speaker 2: I agree with you. That's what happens. What we see

142
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 2: in the bill is that under the Department of Justice,

143
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 2: they want to establish something that's called it the Directorate.

144
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,040
Speaker 2: We're always blowing you to report to, so they will

145
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 2: be tracking mechanisms, et cetera. What we have found in

146
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 2: the past with government, So African government is that the

147
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,440
Speaker 2: lucky instructures in place, but then the structure becomes so

148
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 2: unwieldy yea, that it becomes impossible to manage. So we

149
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:45,559
Speaker 2: need to find a very elegant Alerican way and mechanism

150
00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:47,520
Speaker 2: to actually do these things properly.

151
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,880
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Ben Toronsi of the whistle Blow Our

152
00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:51,160
Speaker 1: House