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Speaker 1: The dialogue with Clement Man Taylor.

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Speaker 2: It's not just another roundtable discussion.

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Speaker 1: Let's walk the talk on seven o two.

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Speaker 3: All right, twenty two minutes now before twelve o'clock. We

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Speaker 3: changed tech now and focus on the conversation we started

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Speaker 3: yesterday around the decision of the Confederation of African Football

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Speaker 3: Appeals Board. Remember Senegal, which lifted the trophy in Morocco,

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Speaker 3: has now been stripped off that trophy. And this comes

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Speaker 3: after the kV Appeals Board declared Senegal guilty of misconduct,

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Speaker 3: ruling that the final match was forfeited and they awarded

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Speaker 3: that Morocco a three nil victory. And this ruling stems

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Speaker 3: from Morocco's appeal which challenged Senegal's conduct during the final clash.

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Speaker 3: Remember when they walked off the pitch for about ten

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Speaker 3: to fifteen minutes to protest that controversial stopage time penalty

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Speaker 3: awarded to Morocco during the final. So keV the Appeals

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Speaker 3: but has found Senegal's actions violated Article eighty two and

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Speaker 3: Article eighty four of the AFCON regulations. And I read

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Speaker 3: those specific articles to you yesterday. Some of you had

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Speaker 3: questions that I myself can't respond to. So I've invited to.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've decided to really invite some people who

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Speaker 3: can maybe respond to those questions. Lux September is a

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Speaker 3: CAV senior official who also works in the office of

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Speaker 3: the COVE President, Petris Mazeppa joining us on the line.

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Speaker 3: Mister September, thank you for making time.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Clement.

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Speaker 4: Finally I can invite to your show mate.

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Speaker 3: Now, thank you so much for making time for us.

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Speaker 3: I'll bring it Dennis Mumble as well as we continue

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Speaker 3: the chair. But let me start with you Lux. First

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Speaker 3: of all, how does Petris Motzippe feel that the COVE

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Speaker 3: president about this decision. I saw the video that he had,

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Speaker 3: you know, released the statement how he respects the hagrity

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Speaker 3: of the appeals Board, but I also know he's previously

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Speaker 3: raised some concerns about just the trust issues and questions

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Speaker 3: over the integrity of care. Does he think this ruling

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Speaker 3: now makes that worse or better?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Look, Clement, First of I mean, there are two decisions.

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Speaker 4: One is the decision of the this Merried committee, which

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Speaker 4: was made about two with three weeks ago, which had

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Speaker 4: ruled completely different by the way. The second one is

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Speaker 4: an appeal. Obviously there was an appealed process of the

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Speaker 4: kept this meric committee body which was made by the

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Speaker 4: KEP Appeals Board, and both his decisions have got zero

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Speaker 4: to do with the chiefly purpet He doesn't stay the

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Speaker 4: kept this nerdy committee. He doesn't sit at the KEP

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Speaker 4: Appeals Board. Actually, I think the decision last night he

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Speaker 4: got it the same time as me as you, not

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Speaker 4: natarily you, but then everyone mean most of the people

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Speaker 4: in a cap which obviously clearly understores that there is

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Speaker 4: a clear separation of the processes that Care. There's the administration,

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Speaker 4: there is the executive which is led by him, and

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Speaker 4: there is a judicial and within a space of crivics,

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Speaker 4: the two judicial arms of CARE have produced two different

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Speaker 4: decisions about the same matter. That shows the independence of

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Speaker 4: the process. Actually that is the chief CERTs you know

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Speaker 4: DNA that you know if there is an independent process.

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Speaker 4: He allows the independent process to take a course. He's

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Speaker 4: the President and the people. I mean the judge is

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Speaker 4: a high court judge from Nigeria, was the judge of

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Speaker 4: the appeal court. I don't even think the President has

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Speaker 4: met him before. He is a completely different individuals. He's

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Speaker 4: best separately there the committee one also the President of

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Speaker 4: Care does not select the people in these structures, not

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Speaker 4: does he get involved with these decisions. Now, if you

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Speaker 4: want to look at independence, look at affect that the

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Speaker 4: two structures of the same organization take two different decisions

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Speaker 4: within the space of three weeks. Now, the KEPT president

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Speaker 4: was very clear yesterday. He said, because he's been informed

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Speaker 4: with that Sina Guy wants to appeal the decision to

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Speaker 4: kV the Court of Application of Sports, and he has

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Speaker 4: completely encouraged the guys to do that without Kept getting

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Speaker 4: involved the KEPT. I know everyone when they say Kept appeals,

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Speaker 4: but they think there's a clear blurring of lines on this.

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Speaker 4: But you know, if anyone has ever worked with the

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Speaker 4: KEPT president and anyone knows him, he knows that. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's there's a Chinese war between all these things. Actually,

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Speaker 4: if in any case he was you know what would

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Speaker 4: Kept two bodies produce two different outcomes within the space

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Speaker 4: of three weeks. Now it shows the complete independence. How

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Speaker 4: does he feel. I don't think it's important what he thinks,

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Speaker 4: how he feels about the letters. What is important. His

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Speaker 4: role and the last five years since he took over

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Speaker 4: is kept. You see what he has turned around African football,

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Speaker 4: and there are and football or five years ago Clement

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Speaker 4: nobody wanted to touch it actually kept when he came on board,

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Speaker 4: was four billion rents in debt. Today KEP made the

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Speaker 4: profit of over till the billion rents in the upcast upcome.

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Speaker 4: It shows that people trust the persons at the helm

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Speaker 4: now the process itself. What he said also yesterday is

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Speaker 4: that they're still a trust difficulty. And it's a historical thing.

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Speaker 4: You know. People know that maybe in the past things

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Speaker 4: are done this week, but that has changed. But of

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Speaker 4: course justice mustn't justice done, it must also.

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Speaker 2: Be seen to be done.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. And he is fully aware of

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Speaker 4: this position himself, the president of CARE. But you know

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Speaker 4: the train line himself. You know that it has to

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Speaker 4: be a clear independence of this processes does you love

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Speaker 4: this vision? I don't think that's important.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I want to ask how does he then

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Speaker 3: manage that? So justice needs to be seen to be done.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you've got custodians as kind. You know, citizens

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Speaker 3: of this continent have placed a lot of respect, a

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Speaker 3: lot of hope towards cav What happens when a lot

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Speaker 3: of them are coming out and they say we don't

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Speaker 3: see justice to be done. I mean, what has happened

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Speaker 3: here may just look bad for CAVE. So how do

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Speaker 3: you manage it? Is it a matter of just explaining

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Speaker 3: to people that there are judges, jurists, respected lawyers who

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Speaker 3: sit on that appeals body who have made this decision.

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Speaker 3: It's got nothing to do with us. So you just

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Speaker 3: have to take it whether you like it or not,

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Speaker 3: or how do you manage it? And I'm not suggesting

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Speaker 3: here that just what as the president needs to intervene,

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Speaker 3: because then that's interference into those independent bodies.

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Speaker 2: But how do we move forward here?

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Speaker 3: Because there are many people that are upset about this,

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Speaker 3: who feel this is too extreme of a sanction.

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Speaker 4: Now, I imagine mer Dipta was a headline today that

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Speaker 4: says the CAF president met today Appeal Board and try

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Speaker 4: to get to change a certain decision. I think that

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Speaker 4: tastrophic to the image of THEFT. Catastrophic. But what has

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Speaker 4: happened is that he has kept an armslength to the process.

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Speaker 4: It's an independent process. Now, if you run an independent process,

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Speaker 4: you don't know you like or dislike, or publicly like

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Speaker 4: or dislike the decision. You've got to say. There is

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Speaker 4: still another stage, which is a Court of Application because

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Speaker 4: there was a decision which was made a three weeks

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Speaker 4: ago which was still as against Morocco. But there was

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Speaker 4: no outcry. Really, there was no Tetristmospherfey interfeed on this.

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Speaker 4: There's a different decision which is made the two days ago.

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Speaker 4: Now two different decisions are made. Both he maintains the

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Speaker 4: same posture. Let's keep an armblence. However, I need to

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Speaker 4: tell you something. A month ago, the test present called

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Speaker 4: an emergency Executive Committee meeting in Tanzania, which is the

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Speaker 4: highest decision body outside the Congress at CARE, and he

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Speaker 4: said to them, we need to be home. He has

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Speaker 4: to look at reforms because and also one of the

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Speaker 4: things he did on that day he called the head

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Speaker 4: of the refereence to come and engage. The Executive committee

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Speaker 4: members were by. I think that engagement two hours is

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Speaker 4: probably the longest I've seen of any individuals in details

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Speaker 4: to say, if you think you are right, there is

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Speaker 4: an issue of perception which we need to change. And

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Speaker 4: I think. I mean, I've been at CARE under this

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Speaker 4: leadership of the coming Sepner for the last five years.

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Speaker 4: It's the first time in the last five years I've

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Speaker 4: ever had anyone questions, and I think it's healthy as well.

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Speaker 4: By the way, I mean completely okay for people to

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Speaker 4: say I don't like this, but it's also important for

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Speaker 4: people to also understand that the President of Care cannot

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Speaker 4: interfere in the processes is the legal processes at Care,

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Speaker 4: and the day he does so, I think he will

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Speaker 4: know this is not theft. Just book Stepper, you.

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Speaker 2: Know that September.

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Speaker 3: Let me thank you for making time for us when

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Speaker 3: he's a CARE senior official who also works of coursing

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Speaker 3: the office of the cop president to Petris Motzepe.

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Speaker 2: After the break, I'm going to bring.

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Speaker 3: In Dennis Mumble, who is the author forma SAFA CEO

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Speaker 3: you'll remember, but also a former keV licensing instructor. You

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Speaker 3: can send your thoughts as well right on seven two, seven,

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Speaker 3: two and seven oh two. That's what's up line, or

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Speaker 3: if you prefer to call us, do so on one one, eight, eight,

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Speaker 3: three oh seven, two thirteen before tough.

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Speaker 1: The dialogue with Clement Taylor.

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Speaker 2: It's not just another round table discussion.

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Speaker 1: Let's walk the talk on seven o two.

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Speaker 2: Ten minutes before twelve o'clock.

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Speaker 3: Another issue we are discussing on our Thursday dialogue this

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Speaker 3: morning is the decision of the KEF Appeals Board to

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Speaker 3: strip Senegal of its up CON title. And that's because

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Speaker 3: they found that Senegal was guilty of violating those rules.

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Speaker 3: Remember article was it Article eighty two and at a

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Speaker 3: at four of the UPCON regulations. We spoke to Lack September,

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Speaker 3: who is a senior CUFF official but also speaks on

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Speaker 3: behalf of Petris Mutzippe, and I want us to bring

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Speaker 3: in Dennis Mumble. Now he's an author, he's a former

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Speaker 3: CEO at SAFA, but also a former CUFF licensing instructor.

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Speaker 3: Joining us now on the line, Dennis, thank you for

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Speaker 3: making time for us as well.

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Speaker 4: Good morning, Good morning.

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Speaker 5: To you, Clement, and good morning to all the listeners

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Speaker 5: out there.

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Speaker 3: Let me just first get your general reaction to that

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Speaker 3: decision when it came out.

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Speaker 2: What did you think.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think that the Appeal Board really overstepped its authority.

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Speaker 5: But it's something that I think needs to be clarified

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Speaker 5: now by the Court of Arbitration for Sport once and

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Speaker 5: for all, not that it hasn't done so yet. It's

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Speaker 5: ruled in the past that if there's a conflict between

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Speaker 5: two laws, first of all, it will assume jurisdiction over

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Speaker 5: the case and also give it definitive ruling. And in

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Speaker 5: this case, my view is that there's a fundamental contradiction

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Speaker 5: between the rules of the competition, this is the Africa

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Speaker 5: Couple of Nations competition and the laws of the game.

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Speaker 5: And in this case, my view, and I think many

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Speaker 5: other people have already expressed it, is that the laws

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Speaker 5: of the game would take precedence, you know, in the

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Speaker 5: interpretation of what should have been done. So my view

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Speaker 5: is that the appeal board aired, and so the only

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Speaker 5: way this can be resolved is by way of an

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Speaker 5: appeal through the Court of Aablication for sport yea, and

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Speaker 5: already ruled in cases like this, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In senegardless of course, already indicated that it's going to

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Speaker 3: be approaching that higher court. I just want to check though, Dennis,

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Speaker 3: when you say they've overstepped their authority, can you just

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Speaker 3: explain to us how you interpret the rules, because you know,

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Speaker 3: just yesterday when I was going through the rules myself,

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Speaker 3: Articul eighty two and Article eighty four, it does clearly

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Speaker 3: state that if you are going to leave the match,

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Speaker 3: abandon the match, and if you do come back and

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Speaker 3: maybe the referee decides that we continue with the match,

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Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to avoid any

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Speaker 3: consequences later on, because if there is a complaint raised,

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Speaker 3: then it can be dealt with. How do you understand

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Speaker 3: the rules and how did the appeal spot in your view, misunderstand.

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Speaker 5: Them, Clement. You see, my starting point is not the

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Speaker 5: rules of the competition. My starting point is the laws

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Speaker 5: of the game, the laws of the game in my

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Speaker 5: view of crystal clear. But first and foremost, that match

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Speaker 5: is controlled by a referee. That's Law five five point one.

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Speaker 5: It's controlled by a referee where has full authority to

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Speaker 5: enforce the laws of the games. Not necessarily first the

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Speaker 5: competition rules. A lot of that is the responsibility of

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Speaker 5: external bodies outside of that field of play. But during

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Speaker 5: that match, the king of that theater there is the referee.

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Speaker 5: And if that referee has taken a decision like what

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Speaker 5: he's done in this case here, he's taken a decision

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Speaker 5: which I'm assuming he thinks it was done to the

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Speaker 5: best of his ability according to the laws of the game,

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Speaker 5: because his first, you know of care, is the laws

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Speaker 5: of the game that he is responsible for implementing. In

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Speaker 5: order to maintain the spirit of the game and anything

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Speaker 5: that flows from there cannot be second guest by a rule,

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Speaker 5: in this case the competition rules. Now, I understand that

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Speaker 5: this is probably new to many people, but the loss

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Speaker 5: of the game is the universal law of sport worldwide,

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Speaker 5: whether it's at amateur level or whether it is at

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Speaker 5: a professional level, it is always the laws of the

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Speaker 5: game that must predominate or that must carry away here

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Speaker 5: and my view, the decision of the referee to restart

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Speaker 5: that match is fully in compliance with Law five of

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Speaker 5: the Laws of the Game, where it says that the

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Speaker 5: decisions or that the decisions will be made by the

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Speaker 5: best of the referees ability according to the laws of

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Speaker 5: the game and the spirit of the game, and will

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Speaker 5: be based on the opinion of the referee, who has

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Speaker 5: a discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of

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Speaker 5: the laws of the game. Now, the referee decision here

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Speaker 5: including I'm I'm sure you read it out yesterday, the

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Speaker 5: result of the match is final. And there is a

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Speaker 5: tradition in football, especially up at the FIFA level and

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Speaker 5: the CAST level, not just in football, but has emphasized

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Speaker 5: this need to understand and to respect the decisions of

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Speaker 5: the referee in any sporting code for that matter, that

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Speaker 5: casts will not second guess the decision of any judge

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Speaker 5: or referee or arbitrator. You know, in the field of play,

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Speaker 5: it has not done that under you know, there have

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Speaker 5: to be exceptional circumstances where they would do that. And

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Speaker 5: so my view is that using the barometer of the

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Speaker 5: provisions of the laws of the game is that that

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Speaker 5: comes first, and then if the rules are interpreted in

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Speaker 5: such a way that it clashes with the laws of

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Speaker 5: the game, then the laws of the game will predominate.

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Speaker 5: And in this case, you know, the the what is

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Speaker 5: that Chapter thirty five of the rules of the competition,

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Speaker 5: which is article thirty two, Article eighty two. Sorry, it

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Speaker 5: says that if the team leave the ground before the

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Speaker 5: regular end of the match without the authorization of the referee,

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Speaker 5: it shall be considered the loser and shall be eliminated

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Speaker 5: for good from the current competition. Now, you can interpret

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Speaker 5: that in so many different ways, and it's clear that

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Speaker 5: the appeal board he interpreted in a very narrow way

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Speaker 5: without taking into consideration what that referee did in the

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Speaker 5: course of that match. He allowed them to resume because

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Speaker 5: the match, in my view was not abandoned, and I'm

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Speaker 5: assuming that the appeal board applied the abandonment test here

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Speaker 5: that match was not abandoned, you see.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean at the very least there was

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Speaker 3: a delay. I mean, that's what we were talking about yesterday.

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Speaker 3: I'm really interested to see how the Court of Arbitration

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Speaker 3: is going to rule on this. Did they read it

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Speaker 3: as abandonment, but abandonment is really not coming back. They

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Speaker 3: did come back after about fifteen minutes and the referee resumed. Dennis,

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Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining this conversation. I really

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Speaker 3: appreciate it. It's bit of minutes before talk