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Speaker 1: The Presidency, putting out a statement this afternoon saying President

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Speaker 1: Sara Roma Pausa has noted their word, not mine, that

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Speaker 1: the National Police Commissioner Fani Massimola has been summons to

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Speaker 1: appear in court. Frankly, he's clearly being charged. It does

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Speaker 1: seem to be part of the fallout from that medi

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Speaker 1: care tender with Uzumuzi kat Matala. We'll only rarely know

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Speaker 1: exactly what the story is, probably on the twenty first

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Speaker 1: of April, when he's due to a peer. Andrew Keith

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Speaker 1: Lee Smith is an anti corruption lawyer and senior associate

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Speaker 1: at NS. Andrew, good evening, Thanks for the time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to run a business in this country,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to look after your investments, and now you

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Speaker 1: see that the National Police Commissioner faces a criminal charge

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Speaker 1: and he's the third National Police Commissioner to be in

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Speaker 1: this position. I mean, what kind of message does this

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Speaker 1: send to us all?

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Speaker 2: Hi, good evening, Stephen, and to your listeners, thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for having me. Yes, Unfortunately, it is quite

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Speaker 2: a sad development from a I suppose a South African perspective.

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Speaker 2: That being said, I think the sentiment and feelings that

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Speaker 2: people had towards the rule of law in South Africa

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Speaker 2: hasn't really changed, and I think it's probably a positive

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Speaker 2: development that we're seeing some sort of action and some

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Speaker 2: sort of accountability, should I say, in a time where

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Speaker 2: we haven't no ordinarily had accountability.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the president hasn't suspended yet, but I'm presume

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Speaker 1: it's automatic in the next twenty four hours. That would

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Speaker 1: really need to happen. Otherwise we'll have to ask questions

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Speaker 1: about the president and I would imagine no one ready

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Speaker 1: wants that.

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Speaker 2: Agreed. I expect there will be some sort of formal

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Speaker 2: notification in the coming days.

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Speaker 1: The mad Lana Commission into corruption, the parliamentary process that

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Speaker 1: we've seen, it's really shed a lot of light of

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Speaker 1: what's been going on in the SAPSID will remind us

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Speaker 1: of the sort of Zondo commission. Do you believe we

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Speaker 1: might start to see some real reform as a result

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Speaker 1: of this? And if we have a more effective police service,

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Speaker 1: it makes life so much easier for every single person

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Speaker 1: who's involved in business, never mind just your general quality

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Speaker 1: of life.

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Speaker 2: I agree one hundred percent. Unfortunately, we are still dealing

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Speaker 2: with the hangover of the stripping of our corruption or

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Speaker 2: anti corruption mechanisms as a result of what happened in

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Speaker 2: the State captured days. But I do think and I

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Speaker 2: would like to express it on air to say that

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Speaker 2: the tide is in my mind turning. There are some

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Speaker 2: exceptionally talented individuals out there that are putting in a

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Speaker 2: lot of hard work to combat corruption in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: And while your listeners probably don't see it in the news,

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Speaker 2: I can confirm that it really is happening, and I

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Speaker 2: am quite enamored of what's going on in the country

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Speaker 2: and what we see and come out in the press.

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Speaker 1: It's been interesting to me to see that the Zumber

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Speaker 1: Commission happened several years ago. Now, findings were made and

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Speaker 1: it took a very long time for the NPA to

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Speaker 1: act here. They clearly haven't waited. They've acted much more

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Speaker 1: quickly and that must be encouraging.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it is, and I suppose in my mind it's

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Speaker 2: probably down to the fact that we are rectifying some

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Speaker 2: of the wrongs, replacing some of the bad apples as

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Speaker 2: it were, that were in NPA historically. And not to

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Speaker 2: labor on about the quality of people that we have now,

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Speaker 2: but in terms of timing. I think when it comes

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Speaker 2: to matters where implicated individuals are police officers or linked

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Speaker 2: to anti corruption mechanisms, I think it is imperative that

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Speaker 2: arrests and prosecutions happen quicker rather than slower as a

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Speaker 2: result of their ability or the accused the ability to

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Speaker 2: interfere with cases. So yeah, I think from a timing perspective,

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Speaker 2: it's really positive to see that these arrests are happening

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Speaker 2: quick and I have no doubt I'm sure many will

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Speaker 2: come in the next few months in relation to what

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Speaker 2: comes out of them at LNGA Commission.

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Speaker 1: If you had to ask every single South African, you

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Speaker 1: know what is the most important thing police need to

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Speaker 1: get on top of them? Almost certain it would be

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Speaker 1: murder and violent crime, along with gender based violence and

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Speaker 1: a few other issues related to violent crime. To grow

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Speaker 1: an economy, though, you just can't do that with the

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Speaker 1: levels of commercial crime that we have, and we've rarely

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Speaker 1: seen a very low level of resources in that sphere

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Speaker 1: for a long time. What kind of big effort would

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Speaker 1: it take to rarely get that to where we need

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Speaker 1: it to be. We've known for a long time we

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Speaker 1: don't have enough detectives never mind detectives, you can manage

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Speaker 1: commercial crime, for example.

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Speaker 2: So I think one of the biggest challenges is the

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Speaker 2: complexity of commercial crime. And I'm sure many of your

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Speaker 2: listeners might not be aware, but commercial crime is quite

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Speaker 2: a difficult crime to prosecute in terms of resources, understanding

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Speaker 2: quite complex financial matters and the like. So I think

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Speaker 2: a lack of resources is probably one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: difficulties we face. And in terms of recommendations, and I

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Speaker 2: know a lot of work is being done in the background,

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Speaker 2: is public private partnerships. I know in other countries globally

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Speaker 2: you have well resource anti corruption mechanisms, and I would

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Speaker 2: like to see that going forward in the future. And

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Speaker 2: I think it is something that we will see. And

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Speaker 2: I mean if you look at the commissions that have

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Speaker 2: essentially been put together to combat corruption, the Sonco Commission

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Speaker 2: and a longer commission, you're looking at well resourced, very

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Speaker 2: talented senior advocates who are assisting and essentially laying the

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Speaker 2: foundation for what will hopefully be successful prosecutions in the future.

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Speaker 2: So I think in summary, I would probably like to

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Speaker 2: see more resources being dedicated to anti corruption and then

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Speaker 2: more public private partnerships in that regard.

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Speaker 1: I mean, public private partnerships are very interesting. They bring

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Speaker 1: a lot of resources that can be incredibly successful. I

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Speaker 1: think there's often a concern about their legitimacy. You know,

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Speaker 1: why would a business organization fund the police. How closely

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Speaker 1: related should they be? Now, I understand the interest of

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Speaker 1: business in the everybody wants the rule of law to work,

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Speaker 1: and that makes sense to me. But at some point

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Speaker 1: in court someone's going to say there's a motive against

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Speaker 1: me because of this public private partnership. It can get

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Speaker 1: a little sticky, sometimes.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent, And that's one of the challenges with

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Speaker 2: these sorts of mechanisms. And whatever is put together and

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Speaker 2: wherever there is funding, it needs to be done in

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Speaker 2: a way that is obviously at arms length from the

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Speaker 2: actual private entity itself, and whatever funding they provide would

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Speaker 2: need to be essentially for the discretion of the state

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Speaker 2: to decide where that money is allocated and to whom,

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Speaker 2: and essentially you can hopefully prevent instances we're accused would

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Speaker 2: accuse the funding of the case as a mechanisms for

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Speaker 2: essentially looking to prosecute them unduly.

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Speaker 1: Andrew Keithy Smith, thank you so much. An anti corruption

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Speaker 1: lawyer is senior associate at NS on The Money Show tonight. Well,

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Speaker 1: we wait to see what the president does around funims. More,

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Speaker 1: as I say, I just can't see that he could

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Speaker 1: go into the office tomorrow. The problem, of course, is

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Speaker 1: who replaces him. The person who would normally replace him,

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Speaker 1: Shadrack Sepia, is himself suspended and has faced very serious claims.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who comes after that, and I know

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Speaker 1: people might say, well, we want in tluntlam Quanasi. He's

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Speaker 1: had the job before as an acting National Police Commissioner

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Speaker 1: back in or showing my age twenty ten or so.

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Speaker 1: It was temporary then, but I don't know if that's

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Speaker 1: necessarily that wise either, We'll watch the space