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Speaker 1: And why welcome doctor Barclay. It's great to have you.

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Speaker 2: With us, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: So my first thoughts are Zero Waste Day. I know

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Speaker 1: of it as a relatively new United Nations observance, but

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Speaker 1: why has the global conversation shifted from just recycling to

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Speaker 1: a more ambitious zero waste framework. I'm all of course

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Speaker 1: thinking about the jobs that it's been creating of late.

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Speaker 2: As well, because we want to move from a cradle

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Speaker 2: to grave to a more circular economy and circular design

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Speaker 2: for our waste, because such a small percentage of our

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Speaker 2: waste can actually be recycled. And of course the focus

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Speaker 2: of today is on food waste, which generally is not

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Speaker 2: as recycled and has to go through various other steps

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Speaker 2: before we can considered recycle.

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Speaker 1: There are some principles that would underpin zero food waste,

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Speaker 1: isn't it Yes.

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Speaker 2: Well, the zero waste is an aspirational idea, So can

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Speaker 2: anything actually be? Can we ever be really zero waste? Well,

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Speaker 2: that is just aspirational because in theory there will be

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Speaker 2: energy and all kinds of other waste issue on the system.

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Speaker 2: But what this aspiration is that from food waste perspective,

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Speaker 2: we must be more careful in what we do and

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Speaker 2: how we then actually get the food to get back

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Speaker 2: into the earth as composts and not go to a

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Speaker 2: landfall site where it creates methane and carbon and then

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Speaker 2: go home the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, stop eating with our eyes as as well. Think

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Speaker 1: about the capacity of your stomach. Maybe that's a good start.

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Speaker 1: There's a morality about this as well. I get that sense.

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Speaker 1: But as an expert in systems thinking, where's the biggest

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Speaker 1: breakdown in our linear take make waste kind of.

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Speaker 2: Model that actually from fruit weste perspectives is everywhere it

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Speaker 2: starts on the farm where between fish four percent of

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Speaker 2: the food is already wasted. So we are see for

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Speaker 2: example pineas for apple core or apple skin, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of the waste there is sugar cane leaves where

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Speaker 2: that is now being used as artificial leather for book binding,

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Speaker 2: for all kinds of eco diesel, all kinds of other things.

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Speaker 2: So which already is looking at creating circular economy and

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Speaker 2: settling designed there. But then of course in transit it

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Speaker 2: happens in the shops like to for their shelves, and

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Speaker 2: then a lot of that kit's wasted. Although a lot

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Speaker 2: of our shops do have systems where they provide their

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Speaker 2: food to various organizations to be delivered and prepared for

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Speaker 2: the poor. And then of course to us. A lot

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Speaker 2: of the fruit weaves happened at the individual level where

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Speaker 2: we as humans like to think we are buying going

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Speaker 2: healthy this week, so we buy a lot of letters tomato,

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Speaker 2: and then of course we end up eating up buying

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Speaker 2: and it's like after longer work, I just want to

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Speaker 2: get something delivered and that's that food end up being

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Speaker 2: startling in the back of the fridge. So it happens

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Speaker 2: on all these levels, and then of course end up

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Speaker 2: in a handful and there are different ways that we

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Speaker 2: can do to actually manage it, especially on individual level.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's an emphasis that we need to put

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Speaker 1: on food waste. Maybe we should take a step back

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Speaker 1: and you should guide us into into why food waste

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Speaker 1: is such a serious issue in South Africa right now.

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Speaker 2: So on the one end, it is because of the landfills,

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Speaker 2: and the landfills when it gets there, it does create

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Speaker 2: the gases that lead to environmental disasters longer on in

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Speaker 2: terms of climate change, and then you know the year

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Speaker 2: we're going to have severe and droughts, and that's just

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Speaker 2: one small aspect that contribute to that. Of course, it's

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Speaker 2: the cold global system adds to it, so that's one thing.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is, of course land. Landfill starts require

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Speaker 2: a lot of land, and as a land that could

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Speaker 2: be used for agriculture or for housing, so on that side,

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Speaker 2: we really don't want it to end up there. And

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Speaker 2: of course if there are systems that it can either

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Speaker 2: feed ourselves or it can feed the soil or can

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Speaker 2: feed the poor, that is much better.

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Speaker 1: Take take me into my home, please, doctor Barclay, help

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Speaker 1: me understand what the biggest drivers of food waste is

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Speaker 1: at that household level.

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Speaker 2: That is mostly that we throw away, like seventy percent

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Speaker 2: of our fruits, vegetables and cereals end up being part

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Speaker 2: of the wastage. And then a lot of the other

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Speaker 2: twenty eight percent of the foot that gets wasted in

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Speaker 2: general are meat, dairy, tubers or seed and so on,

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Speaker 2: so that's where a lot of the waste takes place.

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Speaker 2: Then of course they are we can plan differently. We

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Speaker 2: look at something and say well, this is ugly banano,

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Speaker 2: this is ugly carriage. We show that away. Although it's

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Speaker 2: called edible when something's got the slight bruise on it,

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Speaker 2: it's like, oh no, we don't like it. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of our perceptions about food can be changed.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we can make sure we start off

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Speaker 2: by having a shopping list, a menu and buying food carefully.

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Speaker 2: When we buy the food, move the food we already

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Speaker 2: have to the front so that we can use them

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Speaker 2: up first. So there's a lot of that site that

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Speaker 2: we can do in terms of becoming knowledgeable about our

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Speaker 2: waist and of course created kind of a household white

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Speaker 2: waste watch, especially today where we see what is the

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Speaker 2: type of food we just throw away without even thinking

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Speaker 2: it is a.

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Speaker 1: Near requarter to eleven and eleven o'clock Chatting to doctor

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Speaker 1: Lisa Barclay, Senior lecture in Future Studies and Systems Thinking

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Speaker 1: at Stelembosh Business School. We talk in about zero waste

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Speaker 1: twenty six waste note not let's let's turn to businesses.

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Speaker 1: And I've spoken to businesses on this particular topic and

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Speaker 1: many of them fear going the zero waste rout is

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Speaker 1: a little expensive. Is that a paradigm? Can we view

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Speaker 1: waste reduction as a value generates instead of a class center?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. It depends as well on the business. So if

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Speaker 2: it's a small business and they barely hanging on, then

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Speaker 2: it is a big arc. Then universities can become involved

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Speaker 2: in ge MBOs that actually focus on zero waste, especially

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Speaker 2: the design site, to see what we can do to scale.

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Speaker 2: Some of the bigger companies, especially in the electronics like

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Speaker 2: washing machines and so on, have already moved quite the

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Speaker 2: route to become more circular in their design. But yes,

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Speaker 2: for smaller businesses that's merely surviving, it is a big

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Speaker 2: ask and that is why a group effort and innovations

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Speaker 2: specifically can make a big difference.

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Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of innovation with retailers taking fresh produce,

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Speaker 1: for example, and turning it into prepared foods instead of

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Speaker 1: it going the waste route. To what extent can they

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Speaker 1: improve efficiencies?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, your businesses, there is quite a lot that they

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Speaker 2: can do. We see some of the smaller restaurants, almost

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Speaker 2: like your hipster shops and restaurants that do have the

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Speaker 2: food garden outside where they take the scraps and go

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Speaker 2: and add it as part of composts. A lot of

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Speaker 2: the food can be regrown. So we see that on

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Speaker 2: one of the more, as I said, the hipster end

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Speaker 2: of the market. But some of the bigger restaurants and

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Speaker 2: shops can start do there doing that, ask themselves weekles

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Speaker 2: go and what else can we do in terms of

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Speaker 2: the suit that it can either go back into the

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Speaker 2: soil or go to the needy. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm jumping all over the place, but I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking the nature of our lives so busy, so convenience

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Speaker 1: food is something that we can factor into our busy ness,

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Speaker 1: our old fashioned ways. I'm thinking of budgeting on a

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Speaker 1: monthly basis and buying foods for that kind of longer

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Speaker 1: period of time. I think that would have been a

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Speaker 1: little more efficient, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, if you do buy have a very good

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Speaker 2: sat menu. Eventually most people do eat the same things

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Speaker 2: over and over again. Buy that bulk story properly, make

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Speaker 2: sure that you don't overcook if you do, put things

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Speaker 2: in the freezer. How we store our fruit and vegetables

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Speaker 2: as well is not necessarily how we were taught. There's

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Speaker 2: certain things that you can put in water in and

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Speaker 2: then put in the fridge, and then it lasts much longer.

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Speaker 2: Some go into the right draws. If you take it

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Speaker 2: out of certain plastic and you put it into glass.

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Speaker 2: The class longer. So there's a lot of these things

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Speaker 2: that we can educate ourselves on and just be knowledgeable

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Speaker 2: of what can we do ourselves when things actually spoil,

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Speaker 2: when they expire, what we can do with leftovers. There's

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Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of cookbooks that we can get at

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Speaker 2: our local libraries that specifically focus on what we can

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Speaker 2: do with scraps and gills and calls and wrens and

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Speaker 2: various meals, entire meals that can be made out of them.

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Speaker 2: Which is given the fact that we are heading towards

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Speaker 2: a very serious constricted economy and cost of living crisis

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Speaker 2: that everybody is already experiencing. That will save us money,

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Speaker 2: a lot of money, and the long.

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Speaker 1: Run absolutely, and for those diesel tanks, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be very expensive. It's going to impact and food prices

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Speaker 1: is going to impact in so very many ways. We

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Speaker 1: are talking about zero waste, and I think my instincts

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Speaker 1: were impossible, but our guest doctor Lisa Barkley says, it's

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Speaker 1: a guiding philosophy, it's an aspiration nearly for now. It's

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Speaker 1: not an absolute end goal. I want to. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the circular economy as well, maybe the

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Speaker 1: South African context to a certain extent, I want to

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Speaker 1: understand what the unique challenges are and I would imagine

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Speaker 1: that there are some opportunities where there are challenges as well.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about South Africa regarding waste management, the informal

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Speaker 1: waste picking economy and to what extent that is an

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Speaker 1: opportunity or threat.

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Speaker 2: So the waste because it's actually such a crucial part

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Speaker 2: of our relacing system in South Africa. I know there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of people that is very frustrated by them

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Speaker 2: turning up. But if you thought your waste very specifically

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Speaker 2: into what they pick up, because sometimes some of them

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Speaker 2: come and take the turns and the extra take the glass,

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Speaker 2: next to take the paper. Sometimes is one that take

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Speaker 2: all of them. So to understand the way speck in

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Speaker 2: your area and what they what they want, one can

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Speaker 2: actually already sort it properly and they take it to

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Speaker 2: the recycling. So the their existence helped us a lot

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Speaker 2: in terms of our recycling in this country. So they

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Speaker 2: have very very crucial role to play because not everybody

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Speaker 2: will actually then go and get in their car and

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Speaker 2: take whatever they the waste bigger take and take that

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Speaker 2: to the recycling tact but the way because they do that,

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Speaker 2: and it's quite a big global movement as well, especially

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Speaker 2: for out the global self. Now in general, our country

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Speaker 2: is extremely big and one of the problems we do.

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Speaker 1: We can't lose you now doctor doctor Berkley. Amy, we've

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Speaker 1: lost doctor Barkley. Maybe we can just get a doctor

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Speaker 1: Barclay back on the line. That was pretty critical. But

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Speaker 1: the last point was about waste because of course, and

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Speaker 1: how we can make them more efficient, and that is

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Speaker 1: by separating our waist. That means it's not a shlep

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Speaker 1: for them to really go through our rubbish and separated

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Speaker 1: its separated already, they can be a little more efficient.

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Speaker 1: And more efficiency means that he's moving more of the

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Speaker 1: waste that is recyclable. They're earning more money as well,

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Speaker 1: and that in itself is a bit of a motivation

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Speaker 1: for even greater productivity. I think that that is saying

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Speaker 1: we lost to you, doctor Lisa Barkley at a very

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Speaker 1: critical point. So I'm wondering if you can pick up

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Speaker 1: from roundabout there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Because we are such a big country, it does

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Speaker 2: make it very difficult to actually have a circle economy

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Speaker 2: to scale it's sure rich country and a smaller country

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Speaker 2: like the Scandinavian countries, then it's much easier. In South Africa,

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Speaker 2: we also have a lot of imports in terms of

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Speaker 2: what we need in terms of machinery, and that makes

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Speaker 2: our design, our service even more difficult to actually get

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Speaker 2: it to a circular design. So we are really trying

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Speaker 2: a lot of businesses are focusing on it, trying to

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Speaker 2: get there. But because of our distance from markets, our

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Speaker 2: distance from our where we get our services and products from,

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Speaker 2: it does make it a little bit more difficult. And

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Speaker 2: we do not necessarily have as a culture of fixed it,

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Speaker 2: of repair it, of we use it. We do have

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Speaker 2: that in the rural areas and many of our informal

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Speaker 2: settlements that we do have more of a fixed culture.

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Speaker 2: But in general, if something just looks like it's like

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Speaker 2: not blinking as it shoot or toasted not toasting as

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Speaker 2: it should, we just discarded very easily. And that is

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Speaker 2: so a lot of these wastes is embedded in our

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Speaker 2: culture and we have to change it and request that

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Speaker 2: from the business as we deal with I've got.

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Speaker 1: A message in via the what's upline O seven two

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Speaker 1: five six seven one five six seven it reads in

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Speaker 1: regards to food waste, the supermarkets are so slack. I

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Speaker 1: see tons of food on the cell buy Beast before

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Speaker 1: date every week. Why aren't the supermarkets taking all this

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Speaker 1: produce and moving it to a dedicated area in the

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Speaker 1: store and discounting it heavily so it sells rather than

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Speaker 1: being thrown away. British supermarkets have been far more efficient

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Speaker 1: with this your comments to t Doctor Barclay.

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Speaker 2: There is some of them that actually do that, some

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Speaker 2: of the shops. But if you're a shop owner and

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Speaker 2: you move all your food to this area where everybody

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Speaker 2: can buy it at the discounted price, then everybody they

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Speaker 2: will buy the discount of food and not the food

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Speaker 2: when it comes in, and that will probably make you

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Speaker 2: a little bit poorer as a business. So I can

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Speaker 2: see from a from an absolute reste perspective and from

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Speaker 2: a customer perspective, that's what we see. But I can

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Speaker 2: think from a near capitalist perspective that businesses might want

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Speaker 2: to think, might think twice before they go that Ruth.

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Speaker 1: I agree, I absolutely agree, and they have becoming efficient

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Speaker 1: on that particular front. Just turning again that fresh food

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Speaker 1: into into produced food. But yeah, maybe there are instances

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Speaker 1: of bad management, probably plenty such instances. But let's let's

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Speaker 1: go to the next question. I want to talk eco

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Speaker 1: anxiety because often we don't realize and it's we require

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Speaker 1: collective effort by all eight billion people, and sometimes we

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Speaker 1: are so moved by the needs and so overwhelmed by

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Speaker 1: the scale of the responsibility that must be taken we

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Speaker 1: don't think we can make a difference. And that's that

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Speaker 1: eco anxiety that some people suffer. How can we overcome that?

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Speaker 2: Well, the one thing is realized because we're part of

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Speaker 2: a global system that even small changes we make eventually

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Speaker 2: does reverberate with the system and make things better. But

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Speaker 2: at the moment, climate and environment is at a low

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Speaker 2: in terms of interest. We do go through phases through that.

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Speaker 2: For example, in Holland it's the I think it's the

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Speaker 2: lowest people that wanted to do climate change related degrees

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Speaker 2: for example. So we are globally in a more of

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Speaker 2: a relaxed phase at the moment in terms of the environment,

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Speaker 2: although the pressure and the impacts that we actually have

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Speaker 2: is fill the same as its five years ago. So

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Speaker 2: we can just make small changes and it's all about habits.

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Speaker 2: It's information knowledge that we can make a change. And

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Speaker 2: it's these small incremental mental habits that we can form

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Speaker 2: that eventually will inspire others change the system on the

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Speaker 2: on the market level out where the business is realized.

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Speaker 2: I have to adapt, as we have seen they do,

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Speaker 2: for example in terms of plastic and straws and the bags,

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Speaker 2: and then they will adapt accordingly because they see what

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Speaker 2: that's what their customer wants.

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Speaker 1: I got a voice noting from Venizia for you as well.

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Speaker 1: Let's take listen.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, okay talk. Oh this is really now my

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Speaker 3: most favorite topic, and that is recycling. So all the

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Speaker 3: things they ask us to do, I've been doing it

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Speaker 3: for many years, so my because they get all the

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Speaker 3: goodies in a bag, and most of them are now

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Speaker 3: looking for ten because that's the most money. I cleaned items,

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Speaker 3: of course, and yes, my my little cardboard boxes and

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Speaker 3: toilet things goes to the Crish for arts and crafts.

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Speaker 3: I've got a little plan, a competition, uh to encourage recycling,

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Speaker 3: but that must now wait until I get my vision back.

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Speaker 3: Without my vision, I'm quite uh, quite regarded in many ways,

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Speaker 3: but I'm still carrying on and I'm still dreaming, but

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Speaker 3: recycling is my passion.

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Speaker 1: I get you an thank you, thank you for that,

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Speaker 1: doctor Lisa Barker. I don't know if you want to

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Speaker 1: respond to that, but I also want you to talk

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Speaker 1: to your statement. A waste is a is a design flaw,

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Speaker 1: and I think the question is how can we design

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Speaker 1: out waste? Clearly your thinking is developed on that front.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's if we have our systems in terms of

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Speaker 2: food waste especially and they we from our side. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to talk about the households side, specifically, where we

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Speaker 2: design our household life as such, where we plan or

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Speaker 2: what we're going to need. We have our fridge and

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Speaker 2: our storage and use our old jars and know how

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Speaker 2: to store our food. And then when we make sure

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Speaker 2: that we use what we eat what we don't eat,

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Speaker 2: we can then either donate to a place where they

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Speaker 2: eat the food, or we can then compost that. There

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Speaker 2: is the cutest little compost bins that we can find

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Speaker 2: in many of our shops, or we can just use

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Speaker 2: the old jar and put our scraps in there, then

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Speaker 2: put it in our compost in our garden or take

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Speaker 2: it to a food garden. A lot of food gardens

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Speaker 2: would love that where they then create prodias A lot

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Speaker 2: of the exchange systems take place. Or we can then

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Speaker 2: either cook the scraps that we have left over, or

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Speaker 2: we can then actually I'm freezing or grow from them.

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Speaker 2: So in our house that will be from a household perspective,

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Speaker 2: how we can design it quite circular that we do

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Speaker 2: not end throwing away.

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Speaker 1: We got we got to wrap there, doctor Lisa Barklay.

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Speaker 1: But thank you for that because that doesn't require education.

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Speaker 1: That's burelogic. Just think through the kitchen and organize it

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Speaker 1: a little more efficiently. We appreciate your time and your insights,

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Speaker 1: doctor Lisa Barclay. On of course, zero World International, Zero

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Speaker 1: Waste Day. Hopefully it sparks some thoughts on your front.

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Speaker 1: That ultimately is the goal for today. One two eleven

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Speaker 1: o'clock not in Marca, Stanning