WEBVTT - Consumer Talk: Gift cards and inferior wraps 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:06.920 Lunch with Pipper Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nolla. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.280 Wendy joining us via zoom this afternoon, and it's my 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:13.680 first time chating to this year. So happy New Year 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.560 to you, Wendy, and thanks in advance for all the 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.320 consumer crusading you'll do for us in twenty twenty six. 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.480 Good to be with you, Peppa, and happy new Year 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:22.640 to you and all our listeners. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.680 Thanks so much, Wendy. We've got quite a lot to 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:26.960 talk about today, and we're going to briefly start with 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.800 the big consumer issue that has been dominating both news 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.480 reports and social media for the last couple of days 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.400 since news broke around a major drama brewing with Discovery Health, 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.320 and originally we're we're going to make this our main 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.760 focus today, but our colleagues on several other shows have 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.559 done a number of the key interviews already, and at 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:48.680 this point, Wendy, there isn't a lot we can add 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.680 to the conversation because quite a lot is still in 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:56.840 limbo pending input from the Council for Medical Schemes Not so. 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:01.360 Yes, indeed, and they have been very notably silent. Admittedly, 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.120 I think they the staff got back to the office 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.880 just this week on Monday, and the main players are 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.680 mainly still on leave. This is the problem with breaking 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:15.840 stories at this time of year. So there's been really 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.560 what we want to know from the Council who regulates 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.640 the industry is did Discovery help Medical Scheme consult you 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.880 before taking this decision and coming up with the ways 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:28.759 in which they were going to claw this money back 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:33.200 from their affected members who are estimated to be around 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:34.440 eighty seven. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:35.760 Hundred or not. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:40.280 And then secondly, Discovery has been very adamant that its 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:45.320 actions fall squarely within the ambit of the Medical Schemes 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.400 Act and various other regulations. 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.400 Pertaining to the industry. 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.200 And so we want to ask the scheme that the 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.280 Council for Medical Schemes rather as a regulator, whether they 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:57.200 agree with that. 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:58.760 So that's quite key. 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:03.400 In the meantime, the Discovery Health that's not the scheme, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.280 that's the administrator. Discovery Health Bee too are limited. Have 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:13.200 invited Mark Haimen of Medicheck, which facilitates people's complaints with 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.680 medical schemes. He's made, you know, a lot of statements 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:18.760 about the fact that what they're doing is not legal. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.400 It is the regular and they've asked to meet him. 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.640 That meeting should take place later this week. So a 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:26.520 lot of things up in the air at the moment, 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.640 and those people who are affected have been saying on 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.120 various for forums what we do. Some of them actually 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.760 have had some of the alleged debt, which is on 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:42.320 average about twenty thousand rand purpose it's not inconsiderable amounts, 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.960 bearing in mind that the contributions will go up by 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.279 about seven point eighteen point nine percent in April. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:54.120 This is Janu Warry. It's a terrible storm of things. 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.720 So some of them that haven't agreed to a payment 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:03.480 plan yet have reported that the set off, in other words, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:08.360 Discovery taking some of the money owed off their refronts. 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.680 They do they are due, so you go to the doctor, 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:12.800 you pay. Some of them insist you pay upfront and 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.160 then you submit the claim and instead of refunding this 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.880 one person in particular, and there have been others, they 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.600 keep that money to offset the amount that you owe 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.800 them because of you, because of the overpayments. 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:26.760 So there's a lot going on. 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:33.119 I don't I'm sure you listened to the interview and 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:41.280 that Discovery Health CEO gave our colleague John made them 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:42.280 yesterday morning. 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.680 It was you know, it's their. 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.320 Defense has been to minimize it. They're not saying what 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.600 the total quantum of that clawback is. They're not even 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.080 saying how many members are affected. They're just saying zero 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.440 point six percent, which corporates tend to do because it 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:06.040 makes everything seems less. It's to listen, yes, exactly. So 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.600 they're just saying, you know, these people unfairly enriched. Yes 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.000 they didn't, there's nothing not of their doing, but they 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.920 were unfairly enriched, and we've got to protect the fund 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.040 and not fair to the other members. And that seems 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.479 all well and good, but there is now this legal challenge. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.400 But it's it's never so corporates make this sake. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:31.400 Often there's there's the nitty gritty legalities and whatever, and 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:36.720 then there's the court of a public sentiment. And in 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:38.720 this case, it's never ever going to land. 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.320 Well that they made a mistake for a whole year. 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:43.680 It didn't pick it up for a whole year. 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.480 These people were blissly unaware and most cases, I'm quite sure. 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.160 And and now. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.039 They are expected to pay in full at this time, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:58.000 as I've just explained, the context while the scheme just 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.520 guess to say sorry and yes, you know how we're 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:01.520 going to take our money back. 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:03.800 Well, as Don has just written, having listened to that 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.960 interview with the CEO, doctor Ron Wheeland with John Maatham, 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.480 Don's takeaway is you could not help but notice his 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.200 obdurate refusal to answer those questions that John asked multiple 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.159 times what is the quantum of the clawback? And would 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.599 Discovery consider absorbing those payouts? And you know he obviously 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.000 found it very unsatisfactory listening to that response, and when 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.440 he has you've referenced it's, you know, the pr storm 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:27.320 that comes with us. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:28.840 Never mind, you know. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.760 The implication for the individual consumers you're affected, the spillover 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.719 is a loss of trust in the brand that affects 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.119 every member and every potential future member. 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:39.760 Yes, exactly. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.120 So the main question which John asked quite right is yes, 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.120 you can understand you can't expect the medical scheme it's 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.760 a not for profits. You can't expect the scheme to 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.359 suffer the loss. But Discovery Health Peter I are limited 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.960 and doctor Ron weed in the CEO of Discovery Health, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.760 just to get that right, that's definitely for profit company. 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.960 So why not in in HORRL or in part get 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.039 Discovery Health to put the funds, the missing funds, the 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.800 overpayments to make that right instead of expecting the members 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:10.400 to stuff for the full loss. And he refused to 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.479 answer that question. So it was a bit of a 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.000 PR disaster. It didn't help the case. And now we 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:17.760 just wait to see how the rest of it. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.120 Unfold and what the kinds of medical schemes comes back 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:21.560 with here. And you know, I just I want to 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.400 say one thing, and I'm a member and I'm on 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.440 a plan that has this. You know, it revolves around 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.200 the above threshold benefits, and anybody who's one of those 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:34.000 plans knows how complex it is calculating when that threshold 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.039 is reached and when the benefits kick in, because the 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.640 way claims accumulate towards that benefit is at a different 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.520 rate to the way claims accumulate, you know, before you 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.599 reach it. It's a bit of a minefield for a 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:47.520 lay person to understand it the best of time, So 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.920 I can understand why people might not have picked up 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.839 the fact that they were being overcompensated in terms of 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.200 those above threshold benefits, or that they got there they 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:01.080 started being compensated they reached the threshold level sooner than 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.960 they should have, which appears to be the case. You 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.200 totally understand how you would not realize. 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.000 That it had happened, what had happened like that? 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:10.680 Yeah, And as Dr. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.760 Wheelan said himself in that interview with John yesterday, he 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.320 was at pains to say that ninety nine point nine 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.119 nine percent of the claims were all perfect and above board. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.800 So why would you think that Discovery had got this wrong? 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.800 You would just go along with with what happened through 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:32.160 their complex computer sums. You know, you wouldn't think, oh, 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.240 this is obviously a mistake, because they don't make mistakes 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.320 by their own account, very very very rarely, and certainly 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:39.720 they don't make them for a whole year. 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:42.440 Yeah. Yeah, that's the bige that's. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:43.160 Not working for them. 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.520 Yeah, Okay, So I'm sorry that we can't offer more 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.800 insight than that. It really is a case now of 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.440 waiting for the Council for Medical Schemes to enter the. 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:53.280 Fray as it were. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.720 And as Wendy's mentioned that, you know, it's only the 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:57.720 third day back in office for most of their teams, 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.480 So I think understandable that we don't yet any kind 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.560 of formal response from them, but we will continue to 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:07.720 keep you posted and updated on this subject certainly continues 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.080 to be a major consumer talking point. The other thing 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.480 we're going to look at today is one that I 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.040 think is very pertinent for this time of year, because 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:18.800 it strikes me that a lot of people might have 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.320 been lucky enough to receive a gift voucher as a 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.280 Christmas gift. And I'm thinking of the teachers who are 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.680 often given a gift voucher by the class at the 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.560 end of the term and that sort of thing. They're 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.400 probably quite a few new ones floating around in the 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.680 system right now, which makes it a very good time 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.640 to be talking about gift vouchers and some of the 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.360 pitfalls that come with them. So, if you were lucky 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.480 enough to be given a gift lutchuer of any sort 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.679 over the first of season, I want to upfront make 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:45.640 two suggestions. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:47.160 Firstly, go and put. 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.600 It somewhere safe right now, in somewere where well you 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.880 remember you have stashed it, whether that is in a 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.680 particular file or in a safe or whatever it may be, 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.359 put it in that place right away. And then secondly, 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.079 go to your diary whether it's an electronic one or 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.840 an old fashioned fire effects like I still use, and 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.720 make a note of the expiry date so that you 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.720 can be sure to remember to unlock the value. 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.480 Of that gift voucher before it disappears. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.160 Wendy, won't you explain what made you want to talk. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:16.200 About the subject today? 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:17.440 Okay? 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:18.800 First of all, I want to say, also take a 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.480 photograph of whether it's a card or a taper varcher. 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:22.000 Or whatever it is. 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:28.719 And it's because by law consumer protection acts, these vouchers 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.439 prepaid vouchers, as distinct from vouchers that you get as 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.400 part of a loyalty scheme that you haven't specifically directly 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:35.960 paid for. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:41.720 So we're talking about prepaid, mostly gift type vouchers. They 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.400 are valid for three years. The original bill wanted to 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:45.800 make them valid for five years. 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.680 And industrially at a cadet end, so they've made it 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.839 three years. Three years, which is quite a long time. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.360 But many people myself included, for whatever reason. Now and 0:09:55.400 --> 0:10:01.360 then you don't have I didn't redeem a foot spa thing, 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.600 which is my best but I just didn't just. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.800 Didn't get that. It's terrible because. 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.240 My relative of mine paid for it and so, but 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.360 it happens, so you can't. You don't have any recourse 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:18.360 if you don't redeem the varcher within three years. The 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.600 company gets to keep your money, no questions asked, as 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.880 someone said to be once, but my money didn't expire 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.000 in their bank account anyway. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.360 That's the way it is legally. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:34.600 Now today's scenario is what if that gift archer gets lost. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.960 Now the old days, all gift fartrees with paper, right, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:38.680 and if you lost it, it was the same as 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:44.240 cash because you know, sorry if somebody asked, exactly sorry 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.800 for you. But nowadays the big malls, the brands within 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.760 them issue it's all electronically captured. 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:53.080 Right. 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.600 So I had a situation just before Christmas in fact 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:03.440 where Ashland weekly resident of KDDN but she was in 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.079 the Eastern Cape, so she bought her a vouch of 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.000 sixteen hundred grand as a gift from at home part 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:14.960 of the TFG group in late November, shortly before Christmas. 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.480 She was unable to find it. It was a card, 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.920 so she asked her urban based mother Veena to take 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.200 up the issue at the store in om Shlanga, which 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:29.000 she did and the store staff got a hold of 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.240 head office and they, I think through her ID number 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.840 must have been They traced the card and they confirmed 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.400 the value and they could also confirm that nobody had 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.840 redeemed it in fullaw and part. So what did they do? 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.160 They canceled it because it's now lost and she was 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.479 told long story short, that another one would be reissued. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.040 But shortly before. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.400 Christmas, the mum got a called from the store to 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.959 say they couldn't replace it after all, because a gift 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.000 card is treated in the same way as cash. 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.480 You lose it, you lose it, you lose the value. 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.319 But her point to me, Pepper was and a very 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.400 reasonable one. They know the voucher has not been used, 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.160 They know because they canceled it, that it can never 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.680 be used. So they sit in with the money oney 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.880 six hundred rand and refusing to replace it, in other words, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:24.760 refusing to give either the buyer or the recipient the 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:30.040 opportunity to redeem that money, so that sixteen hundred rand 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.240 must now be regarded as forfeited. So I got hold 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.160 of TFG and I said, are you really comfortable with 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.360 retaining this money under the circumstances. 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:40.480 And the circumstance that. 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.000 Meant was you know, you. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.840 Originally acknowledged that was bought. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.240 You canceled it, and you said, we issue some other 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.920 means of redeeming it, and then you change your mind. 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.000 I mean, are you comfortable with that anyway? 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.640 The response was to issue a gift card to the 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.160 value of two thousand and so an extra four hundred 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.240 grand as a gesture of goodwill and apology, and I 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.440 was told as a general principle, gift cards are treated 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.679 typically as cash equivalents and are therefore not ordinarily replaceable 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:16.040 if lost or misplaced. That said, having viewed the specific 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.280 circumstances of this case, including the earlier engagement with the store, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.160 we felt it appropriate to resolve the matter pragmatically and 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.120 in the customer's favor. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.960 So they've replaced it with some extra sweetening spiggles on top, 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:30.760 which seems to be a bit of a trend in 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:31.920 the stories we're looking. 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:33.360 At today, it does. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:35.760 I mean, I'd be interested to hear from any listeners 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.240 who've had this experience of losing a gift card and 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.120 whether you tried to engage with a store and ask 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.000 them whether they would replace it for you, whether their 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.000 system could show whether it had been used or not 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.760 whether you got anywhere, Because when, as you said, in 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.640 the olden days, where it was a piece of paper gone, 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.719 you had no proof of the fact that somebody else 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.679 had not picked it up and spent it in the future, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.600 you know, so there was very little sort of leg 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.240 room for you. But now days or the system able 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.160 to confirm it cannot be used, and we can cancel 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.120 it to ensure it can't be used again, it really 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.839 becomes a harder decision to defend. So TFG didn't about 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.720 face on this one. That's one group's position. What do 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.640 you consumer oversight bodies think of the stance? 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.240 Wendy Okay, So I contacted the Consumer Goods and Services 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:20.600 umbut Lisa. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.760 Brati, as well as our. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.960 Friend of the show consumer attorney Tridy Brookman, and this 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.359 was right at the beginning of the week, so thankfully 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.160 they both responded, even though the umbut is on leave 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.640 until next week. And he got back to me to say, 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.960 if a supplier refuses to reissue a lost gift card 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.120 by relying on its own teacencies, this does not automatically 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:47.560 make the refusal unlawful or sorry, it doesn't make the 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.880 refusal lawful. Yeah, he says under the Consumer Protection Act, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.960 money paid for a gift card remains the consumer's property 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.120 until the supplier has actually supplied the goods or services. 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:03.040 If the CA can be traced, confirmed as unredeemed, and 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.240 then canceled, the supplier has suffered no loss and no 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.280 performance has taken place. They've given you nothing in return 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.400 for what you paid them. A term that allows the 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.880 supplier to keep the money without providing value is likely 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.040 unfair and unenforceable, and the consumer, in my view this 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.200 is the umbert's view, is entitled to have the value 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.600 reissued or credited, despite what the fine print says, not 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.520 as a good will gesture, but as. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:30.080 A legal requirement. 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.640 Because yes, because it so. 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.760 I think the problem with I think that the Act 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.480 could have gone further, but it is, what is it 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:44.400 going on fourteen years old now, and there should be 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:50.000 a very firm distinction between a paper, physical voucher with 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:54.680 no electronic backing, you know that's the record, and an 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:55.800 electronic one. 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.040 So then as we do. 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.960 I also chatted to you to Trudy and she agreed, 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.240 and she raised an interesting aspect, and that is there 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.160 are two consumers involved, both the giver and the receiver 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.720 of the voucher, and so I thought it would be 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.880 interesting to get her views in general on this issue 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.800 and then how that give a receiver thing plays out, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.400 what significance it has. If Trudy is consumer attorney Trudy Brookman, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.040 who is with us on the line. Now, Happy new 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:29.840 Year to you, Trudy, and lovely to have you on 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:30.440 the show again. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.320 Thanks for the happy near t and Wendy Batta and 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.640 to all of the listeners. It's still likeful to be 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:37.440 back on the show. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:38.240 Thank you. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.240 Can I thank and give us make a few general comments? 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.200 I mean, I want to zoom in on the on 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:48.400 this thing about the two consumers, so I think I 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:54.520 need to So yeah, just then the at home perspective 0:16:54.840 --> 0:17:00.800 that a voucher is equivalent to cash, I understand where 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.680 they get that. Section sixty three of the Consumer Protection 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.120 Act says that the money that sits behind a voucher 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.960 gift voucher that was paid by the giver of the 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:18.879 voucher belongs to the bearer of that voucher. So I 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.320 walk around in the street and I dropped my Willie's 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.359 gift card and someone else picks it up and is 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.800 able to spend it at Wully's, then Wilise is entitled 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:33.280 to give them Woolise products in exchange whatever my balance 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.520 was on that card. In that sense, it is similar 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.680 to cash. But if it wasn't picked up by someone, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.120 but it's slipped in, I don't know, and it's in 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.840 one of my old handbags or whatever, and I don't 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.480 find it within the three year period and I realized, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.439 my word, I need to use it before it runs out. 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.480 Then one can go back. And you're not relying the 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:03.159 non section sixty three of the Consumer Protection Act. That 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:10.520 on section sixty five, which says that a supplier such 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:15.360 as at Home or anyone else who issues gift vouchers 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:20.560 supply is required by the Act to account for consumers property. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.600 And it specifically says that the money that's that was 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:31.440 paid for that gift voucher does not belong to the supplier, 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:36.080 but rather it's the property of the consumer. And and 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.680 based on that, you are entitled to then get your 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:46.200 money black so you can you can obviously also arrange 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:51.359 with the retailer to give you to blacklist the lost 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.960 gift card and to reissue a new card to you 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.560 and and use it as a gift voucher if you prefer, 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.000 but you and also the card has lost either the 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.520 and here here is where we have the two consumers. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.560 So we have the giver and we have the receiver 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.560 of the gift farture right, and both of those are 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.840 consumers as defined in the Consumer Protection Act. And to 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.200 my mind that means that either of them can approach 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.560 the shop and say, sorry, the card has been lost. Sorry, 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.600 the voucher is missing in action. Can you check where 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.760 it it has been redeemed. If it hasn't been redeemed, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.680 here's our proofs that we purchased that, And that would 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.800 usually be with the giver, right, But obviously, as the receiver, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.199 you usually have a relationship with that givern and you 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.000 can go back to them. And so can you give 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.440 me the proof I've misloaded? I need to go back 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:52.120 to the shop. I know, for example, that game has 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.919 contract terms that say if you lose your voucher, you 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.560 have no recourse that practically behind this scenes despite that, 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.119 and that's probably an illegal provision in their contract terms 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.680 for the vouchers. They do honor the vouchers if you 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.600 come back and say, well, no, it's been lost, they 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.800 check on their system, the blacklist the lost gift card 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.800 and reissue a new one. Toe for Yeah, and it 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.000 should be as simple as that. That's the only honest 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.080 way to do it, and it's the only requirement, and 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.520 it is a requirement of Section sixty five, which says 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:34.439 that the money does not belong to the retailer, and 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.359 that the retailer must handle it in a manner which 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.520 is reasonably to be expected of a person who's responsible 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:46.240 for managing another person's property. That means that they must 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:51.879 be particularly careful, dilegent, and skillful in the treating of 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.800 that money. So obviously you can't just appropriate it. 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.760 Yeah, Okay, less three years have past. 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.320 Okay, yeah, again we outside that three year window, it's 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.520 a different story. But Trudy, thank you. That's short and 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.879 sweet and absolutely clear that the retailer does have a 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.160 responsibility to act if you can prove that you purchased 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:14.280 it and that it has not been used and the 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.560 value has not been derived from that card, and you 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.000 are still within that window within the expiry date, they 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.800 are obliged in terms of the law to then assist 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.240 you in blacklisting the original card and issuing a new 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.560 one or refunding you as an alternative. Truty Brookman, consumer attorney, 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:30.639 thank you so much for that. 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:32.840 Join the conversation. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:34.200 Join the conversation. 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:35.800