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Speaker 1: I'm lucky enough that I get books sent to me

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Speaker 1: often three four five a week. When this book came through,

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Speaker 1: I was I didn't know it was coming, and that's

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Speaker 1: even more exciting. And I ripped open the packaging and

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Speaker 1: immediately the title struck me Haram and the author struck

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Speaker 1: me Severe Charles. And then I turned over and I

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Speaker 1: read the blurb on the back and I said, I'm

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Speaker 1: in with it, and it was I remember, I was

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Speaker 1: literally running out the door. And before I ran out

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Speaker 1: the door, I ran to my laptop and I sent

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Speaker 1: the email and I said me, Me, Me, which means,

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Speaker 1: don't give him to anybody else on the station. I

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Speaker 1: want to do this, do this conversation. And then what

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Speaker 1: felt like about two weeks later, another book landed by

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Speaker 1: the self same Zabea Charles, and I thought, this person

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Speaker 1: is a machine. But this one is a collection of poems,

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Speaker 1: The Sad Boys Starter Pack and other poems from the

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Speaker 1: stage to the page. Saba Charles is really sort of

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Speaker 1: building a reputation for telling deeply personal, often challenging stories,

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Speaker 1: and these pieces of work are no exception exception. I'm

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Speaker 1: thrilled that you're here. Hello, good morning, Thank you very

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Speaker 1: much indeed for making time for us. Listen, where do

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Speaker 1: you want to start? What would you like to start with?

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Speaker 2: Which? Whichever let's sort of because I think said was

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Speaker 2: started back is more tigue and chicken are but uplifting

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Speaker 2: despite the title, Yes, yeah, yeah, we can go with

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Speaker 2: the e to first in the final light to note.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, gosh, where where to start with this?

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Speaker 2: This?

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Speaker 1: How as a as an as a reader, what appeals

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Speaker 1: to me is stories that make me feel empathy, that

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Speaker 1: make me question, that make me uncomfortable sometimes, that that

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Speaker 1: make me sad things, and that also invite me into

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Speaker 1: a well that I may not necessarily be familiar with.

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Speaker 1: And Haram is doing all of that, and I say

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Speaker 1: is doing because I'm still halfway through and I like

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Speaker 1: to do that otherwise. The problem, the problem with completely

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Speaker 1: reading a book and then having the author in is

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Speaker 1: that you end up giving everything away. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to do that because then you go, well, I know,

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Speaker 1: start to finish, and then and when this happened on

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Speaker 1: page seventy two, and other people go, but we haven't

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Speaker 1: got to page seventy two, and you're giving it all

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Speaker 1: the way. So actually I think that this is a

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Speaker 1: this is a good thing for me. So how do

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Speaker 1: you know that a book like this is ready to

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Speaker 1: be told or a story like this is ready to

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Speaker 1: be told?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think I will know. I

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Speaker 2: thought telling you that was easy to be told, and

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Speaker 2: after it's see the lease, I'm feeling I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say weird, but it's like I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to feel about it. It hasn't settled in yet. At first,

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I'm really deed is for people

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Speaker 2: to activate in the sense of it's just been in

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Speaker 2: my laptop for the past two years ish. So I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: finally I get to get that response. It's not just me.

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Speaker 2: I'm not so isolated. It's not me sitting in the

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Speaker 2: dark room mapping out the story. So I don't know,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know if I would have that answer,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's what I resonate with is just

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Speaker 2: what you said now, because I've been trying to explain

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Speaker 2: to people what the book is about.

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Speaker 1: How and how do you do that? I hate that

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Speaker 1: question as an author, but as an author and as

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Speaker 1: an interviewer, but you've just mentioned it, So, how do

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Speaker 1: you describe what this book is about.

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Speaker 2: Before I answer that. I think prior to that, I

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Speaker 2: had been chatting to a friend for a long time

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Speaker 2: about the book and I explained over and over and over,

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Speaker 2: and at the book launch this person was like, so

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Speaker 2: tell me, are you trying to be ironic with the title?

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my god, after all the

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Speaker 2: conversations that we've had on a public platform, you're now

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Speaker 2: asking me something like that. It wasn't I guess that

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Speaker 2: people ask things for the sake of asking. But I

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Speaker 2: was like, ah, I'll explained so much. But I think

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Speaker 2: I'm steering towards the answer of please read the book

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Speaker 2: and then you will understand if that makes sense. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a lot of misconceptions that, oh, it's provocative,

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Speaker 2: Oh it's shock value, Oh it's sensationalism. No, it's a

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Speaker 2: coming of age story about a teenager who is struggling

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Speaker 2: life like many many others are struggle like I have struggle.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure yushey, J and I have struggled in your life,

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Speaker 2: maybe not in the same way that this character has.

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Speaker 2: But and I'm gonna take a long pause. People need

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Speaker 2: to understand that it's fiction and it's a story that

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Speaker 2: many can resonate with. So yeah, maybe cliche to say,

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Speaker 2: don't judge your book by its cover, but read the

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Speaker 2: book and then you'll understand. I think people have the

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Speaker 2: own pretty conceived notions, which is okay, yeah, but you

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Speaker 2: need it and get to the end and then you'll understand.

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Speaker 2: And maybe we could people get it. Yeah, making sense.

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Speaker 1: You are so then I ask you also, and you

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Speaker 1: and I love it. I love hearing authors talk about

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Speaker 1: their work because it's so interesting to me. And you say,

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Speaker 1: you know, painting the picture of its being you and

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Speaker 1: your laptop. And I've been there in the dead of night.

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Speaker 1: I'm a nighttime writer in the dead of night and

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Speaker 1: I'm writing, and it's I suppose Oprah calls at the

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Speaker 1: aha moment, but there are moments where I call it flow.

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Speaker 1: The flow happens where it's almost like it's not you

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Speaker 1: writing anymore, it's just coming out. It's a weird. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you relate to that too. It's just

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Speaker 1: kind of the words are just coming, and there is

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Speaker 1: such a there's such a personal relationship with what's coming out,

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Speaker 1: and such an almost such an ownership, but also not ownership.

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Speaker 1: I'm maybe not making sense now, and then there comes

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Speaker 1: point where you have to go it's done, and you

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Speaker 1: hit send, and this piece of work is no longer

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Speaker 1: just yours and you deliver it onto the world, and

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Speaker 1: you can't control how people interpret. And I wonder how

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Speaker 1: you're sitting with that right now in terms of how

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Speaker 1: people interpret this work.

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Speaker 2: I think I can answer that on two labels. The

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Speaker 2: first thing is that it started out as me writing

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Speaker 2: diary entities.

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Speaker 1: I knew it, so it was just.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of shame because I I was

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Speaker 2: addicted to partying. So the second haarm of this book

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Speaker 2: deals with the character's alcohol addiction, and I wrote, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't addicted to alcohol, but I was addicted to the

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Speaker 2: party life, nightlife, far space, cap down, long set, all

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Speaker 2: of that jazz, and it was just me shotting down. Okay,

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Speaker 2: on this night, so and so and so it happened

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Speaker 2: on the night that and the other happened. And then

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Speaker 2: when I had the honor of completing my master's in

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Speaker 2: creative writing, was.

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Speaker 1: That was this book. I'm so sorry to interrupt.

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Speaker 2: Took that project, yes, but half of it, okay, half

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Speaker 2: of it, and my brilliant supervisor, Professor Imnancovadia, was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to sign off on this, and you're

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Speaker 2: going to have to do the start and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, rightfully, so you was correct. And then

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Speaker 2: I realized, okay, I'm going to scrap everything and then

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Speaker 2: write a fictional life story. So first things. First, people

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Speaker 2: assume that this is nonfiction and this is my life story.

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Speaker 2: It is not, So I'm going to iterate that as

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Speaker 2: much as possible because it is a fictional lie story.

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Speaker 2: And as you were saying, you know that separation or

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Speaker 2: that aha moment that you spoke about, I also had

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Speaker 2: to separate myself from the story because it is not

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Speaker 2: my story or my left experience. So that is that

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Speaker 2: weirdness of oh, how are people going to interpret it

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Speaker 2: because it's not me? Yeah, kind of ease, but it's not.

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Speaker 2: So it's all of that that I am trying to navigate.

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Speaker 2: It's also not like they said, Poet's plen so I'm

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Speaker 2: not trying to over explain, and it's just it's exciting, daunting.

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Speaker 2: But hey, guys, everybody out there read it. Take it

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Speaker 2: as a work of art. It's a piece of literature. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: everybody wants to know that my mom or people like, oh,

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Speaker 2: is that me? And the story always this, especially with

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Speaker 2: my playwriting, and deliberately I try to make the story

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Speaker 2: as far as possible to my own life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is so interesting for me.

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Speaker 2: So I have.

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Speaker 1: Today I've only had published, not I've only written, but

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Speaker 1: I've only had published memoir. But I'm working on fiction.

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Speaker 1: So exciting for me. But there are the characters that

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Speaker 1: I'm writing are have elements of all of them have

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Speaker 1: elements of me, because I'm me and that's how I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm writing. And yet there are some characters that you'll

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Speaker 1: be like, well, that's nowhere near who you are, Esha.

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Speaker 1: It's no, it isn't because I have nuances and I'm

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Speaker 1: a fully formed person, and so is that character. So

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Speaker 1: I feel like, as as readers, we often want to

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Speaker 1: do this, and I've I've done it with this book.

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Speaker 1: I'm immediately thinking, well, that that my impression of you

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Speaker 1: and what I know of you, and what I know

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Speaker 1: of you written, and what I know about you, it

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Speaker 1: must be you. And yet intellectually I know that's almost

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Speaker 1: certainly not what that is. You are not Mohammed, and

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Speaker 1: I have to I have to keep doing that. The

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Speaker 1: compliment that I would say to you. And also one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite writers, Shane of Fife, has done the

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Speaker 1: shout for this book and the shout for her book,

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Speaker 1: So we're doing a whole kind of living real inteconnective.

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Speaker 1: She says so intimate and honest that I often forgot it,

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Speaker 1: forgot it was fiction. And that's how I feel. And

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Speaker 1: actually I was going to say to you this morning

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Speaker 1: because I was pondering about about the book I was

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Speaker 1: reading last night as well. It feels there are moments

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Speaker 1: where it feels so personal. It feels like I'm reading

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Speaker 1: someone's diary. Yeah, yeah, which is actually which is super powerful.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that they started out as kind of

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Speaker 1: diary entries and stuff, was that intentional? Did you want

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Speaker 1: it to feel that way as opposed to a novel

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Speaker 1: or is that just what's happening? And my own interpretation

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Speaker 1: of the book.

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Speaker 2: I think the confusion maybe comes in weird because the

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Speaker 2: story is written in first personalrative Yeah, so I think

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Speaker 2: that kind of sits that you'd done a different path

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Speaker 2: in a way. But I can answer so many things

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Speaker 2: on what you said, But first things first, those who

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Speaker 2: know me personally know that this isn't me. Yeah, Secondly,

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Speaker 2: I gravitate towards characters with it's in film or in

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Speaker 2: literature where the character is making so many bad decisions

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Speaker 2: and you don't do it for them, and you're like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell are you doing? So our why, I'm

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Speaker 2: actually glad it wasn't nonfiction, and I'm glad I made

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Speaker 2: a fictionalist story in the sense that I could look

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Speaker 2: at the character and be unbiased and really delve into

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Speaker 2: all of the bad decisions that he makes. So I

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Speaker 2: actually find the main character quite annoying because I'm just like, guy,

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Speaker 2: come on now.

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Speaker 1: Like again, yeah, you know, but yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it's it wasn't intentional, but yeah, I think people

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Speaker 2: are going to try to, like you said, net pick

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Speaker 2: and see, oh it's this to do? Is this not

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Speaker 2: to do? But definitely not me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that there are themes in the book

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Speaker 1: that people are going to pick up on as being

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Speaker 1: the main thing, like the sexuality thing, the religion thing. Actually,

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Speaker 1: there's so much more going on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for saying that. Of course, the book deals

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Speaker 2: with many taboo topics.

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Speaker 1: That's what I mean is that people immediately get took

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Speaker 1: by the taboo, but the depth of the other so much,

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Speaker 1: so much.

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Speaker 2: There's so much, and I've been trying to tell people,

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Speaker 2: like you know, there's there's the family elements. There's the

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Speaker 2: of course, the alcohol, addiction is the sexuality, there's the

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Speaker 2: the lack of father. There's the mental health, which is

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Speaker 2: a big aspect of the book, is social awkwardness, is depletionion.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot. There's a lot to unpack. I

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Speaker 2: think if people are like I said, people read the book,

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Speaker 2: they will see that it's not just a book about sexuality,

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Speaker 2: or that it's confused or with unsure he's bisexual or not,

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Speaker 2: or all of that. It's not just about addiction. There's

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Speaker 2: so much more. And I think we need to move past,

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Speaker 2: as readers, as anybody that engaged with any form of art,

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Speaker 2: that one thing can't be one way and that people

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Speaker 2: interpreted it differently. Particularly if you just look at the

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Speaker 2: book and if you see Alistair McKay's shout and Shane

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Speaker 2: A five shout, and if you read the full shout

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Speaker 2: that they're like, oh my word, SHANEA. You picked up

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Speaker 2: this from the book. I never even thought of that.

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Speaker 2: Of course, she's a mom, and she explained to me

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Speaker 2: that's why she got that aspect. Of course, Alistair interpreted

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Speaker 2: a way definitely. I can't control, of course, what people

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Speaker 2: take from the book, but I do want people to

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Speaker 2: understand that I strongly believe it's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: everybody in this book, and people can see themselves within

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Speaker 2: it in the different subject matter. Yeah, who do.

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Speaker 1: You so on that? Who do you or if you do,

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Speaker 1: who do you write for? Somebody asked me that question

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Speaker 1: once and I didn't have an answer. Initially. I think

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Speaker 1: this is when my first book came out. I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I wasn't sitting there thinking and then someone's

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Speaker 1: going to walk into a bookshop and pick this up.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't. I couldn't even contemplate that that was going

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Speaker 1: to be a real thing that people would go and buy.

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Speaker 1: I was literally just writing for self at that point.

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Speaker 1: And then throughout my career I've kind of that's changed,

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Speaker 1: and there are moments where I'm like, no, I'm specifically

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Speaker 1: writing for black women, I'm specifically writing for recovering addicts,

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Speaker 1: I'm specifically writing for adopted people. There were moments of that,

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Speaker 1: And that's not to say that people who fall outside

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Speaker 1: of those groups aren't, you know, but in terms of

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Speaker 1: who I want to really take something out of this,

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Speaker 1: knowing that my experience from reading literature, how much I've

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Speaker 1: drawn from people's experiences and then putting whether it be

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Speaker 1: fiction or nonfiction, down on the page, and my relating

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Speaker 1: to that, and how much that has helped me get

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Speaker 1: through stuff. That's why I specified groups of people that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to read the book. But now, I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 1: right now, I don't have an audience. Did you have

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Speaker 1: an audience in mind?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And no, But I think as Okay, let me

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Speaker 2: preface my answer by saying that obviously the diary enties

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Speaker 2: were like me nineteen twenty twenty one, Master's in Creative

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Speaker 2: writing was me in my late twenties twenty six, twenty seven,

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Speaker 2: twenty eight. Now I'm thirty one, So I think my

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Speaker 2: idea of the audience is constantly evolving. Of course, I

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Speaker 2: wanted the book to represent me or in the sense

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Speaker 2: that I wanted it to be for people who struggled

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Speaker 2: with alcohol addiction. I wanted it to obviously be for

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Speaker 2: people who struggled with the sexuality, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be for people who had any sort of mental health struggled. Right,

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Speaker 2: So those were the main three topics. But the more

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Speaker 2: the responses I'm getting, like many many Christian people, I've

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Speaker 2: read the book and they said, oh my word, I

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Speaker 2: resonate with that, and I didn't expect that because of

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Speaker 2: course his faith is a very strong aspect of the book.

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Speaker 2: So that has been really interesting that people or are

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Speaker 2: Christian or not Muslim, it isn't ate with the book,

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Speaker 2: or it isn't it with the title and the subject matter.

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Speaker 2: So as much as as writers or artists, we want

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Speaker 2: to box our target audience and we want to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's for this group of people, for that group of people.

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Speaker 2: I think after reading the book so many times, are

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Speaker 2: realized there's a little bit for everybody, and we can't

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Speaker 2: just say, oh, it's for yours. It's for everybody. And

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Speaker 2: I think it's a really cape town store.

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Speaker 1: You very to what degree do you have you received

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Speaker 1: are you expecting to receive any sort of criticism, whether

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Speaker 1: that be from and I'm not going to specify who

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Speaker 1: it might come from. There's a number of people that

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Speaker 1: might you know that that might feel invested in any

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Speaker 1: one of the themes in the book. Yes, how do

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Speaker 1: you feel about that kind of how do you deal

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Speaker 1: with it? Do you deal with criticism?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: Do you do you take it on board? What is

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Speaker 1: your take on that.

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Speaker 2: From the written aspect. I do take criticism well, in

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Speaker 2: the sense of criticism should be constructed, should be taken constructively.

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Speaker 2: So many people have said that maybe the structure didn't

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Speaker 2: really work for them, or certain parts of the book

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Speaker 2: they found confusing, and I open I'm open to that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, Okay, I understand that because obviously it starts

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Speaker 2: off for them about to get married to a woman,

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Speaker 2: and then we go back in time and then he

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Speaker 2: tells his story. So a lot of people are saying

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Speaker 2: that that maybe didn't work for them. It worked for

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Speaker 2: me as a writer, and that's important. But in regards

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Speaker 2: to themes the criticism there, I want people to understand

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Speaker 2: again that this is a piece of fiction and it's

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Speaker 2: meant to not to create to awareness. It's not oh,

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Speaker 2: I wrote this political and religious book that is a

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Speaker 2: to stoke up the system and shake the system up.

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Speaker 2: Please people, if you're listening out there, that was not

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Speaker 2: the intention. It's not me being the voice the voice

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Speaker 2: and I'm here to you know, be the voice of reason.

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Speaker 2: It's not that it's just the story. I want people

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Speaker 2: to read it and like, oh my word, I understand.

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Speaker 2: This is why people turn to self harming. This is

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Speaker 2: why people are depressed. This is why people turn to addiction.

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Speaker 2: It's because they may be struggling with the sexuality or

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Speaker 2: struggling with the belongings, struggling the various parts of the identity.

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Speaker 2: They don't have anybody to confide in because we make

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Speaker 2: these topics so taboo, and because it's so taboo and

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Speaker 2: you can't, like in the story, it con't really confide

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Speaker 2: to speak to anybody, you know. This is why people

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Speaker 2: turn to all these self harming where its in various forms,

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Speaker 2: it can be so Yeah. I suspect that people might

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Speaker 2: not understand that, but I think we as a society

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Speaker 2: need to move forward in the sense of okay, I

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Speaker 2: I think I understand what Sube was trying to achieve.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. The book is Haram. Please go and buy

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Speaker 1: it and read it. Oh, actually, the library, whatever you

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Speaker 1: want to do and let me know what you thought. Uh,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about this briefly. The Sad Boys starter pack

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Speaker 1: God I love, I Love a collection of poems that

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Speaker 1: I can pop in my handbag. She said, talk to

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Speaker 1: me about this. Where where do you stay?

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Speaker 2: Where?

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Speaker 1: Where did your Where did your love of poetry come from?

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Speaker 1: Because poetry is not for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Poetry is not for everybody. But I spent nine years

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Speaker 2: teaching English, and I was like, could it's still with

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Speaker 2: her eyes. So the more I was teaching, analyzing, reading poetry,

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Speaker 2: explaining poetry on a daily basis, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I think I can give us a crack and try to,

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Speaker 2: you know, with my own imagination into it. But it

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Speaker 2: actually came from I'm a very big person. I'm a

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Speaker 2: person who enjoys music. I love good lyrics, I love

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Speaker 2: great artistry. So I was the earlier that inspired by sus

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Speaker 2: Lina Dalga, Carliu tros Ivan or this alternative R and

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Speaker 2: B and rock artists. And I was like, I think

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Speaker 2: I want to mimic that through my own words, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: see and play around and be as tani Chie can

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Speaker 2: suffle we as possible about my sadness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Tell me something, how do you

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Speaker 1: teach poetry to be engaging? I developed a love of

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Speaker 1: poetry after having a hatred of it. I grew up

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Speaker 1: with very kind of old, stale, pale, male poetry war,

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Speaker 1: poetry that I couldn't relate to at all, And then

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Speaker 1: I would, you know what, eleven twelve, sitting in an

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Speaker 1: English class with somebody who was not that particular person

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Speaker 1: was not able to bring it alive to me, and

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Speaker 1: it felt painful and it felt so far away from me.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't get it. And then I met a teacher

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Speaker 1: who had the absolute opposite effect and brought in poetry

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Speaker 1: that I could find a hook for and brought a

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Speaker 1: live people my angeliue to me, and it was magical.

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Speaker 1: How how? What? What was your What was your approach

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Speaker 1: to teaching poetry?

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Speaker 2: Maybe my post to teaching poetry mighter controversial, but I

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Speaker 2: look at it from a point of view of self gratification.

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Speaker 2: In the scenes that I try to teach, My teaching

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Speaker 2: is always linked to the in goal of the exam,

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Speaker 2: So I'm actually teaching them the exam skill to analyze

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Speaker 2: and understand poetry and be able to answer it in

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Speaker 2: the exam. So for me, it's more can you do that?

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Speaker 2: And once I've taught you that, they get the love

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Speaker 2: for it because they understand it and they get in

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Speaker 2: the good marks. So it's not to say that I'm

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Speaker 2: sort of like I did both society teach, inspiring them

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Speaker 2: to understand the story and to get I'm not very

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Speaker 2: much not that. Yeah, so that's the way I come

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Speaker 2: from it, Like, okay, guys, that's what you can speak

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Speaker 2: in the exam. Let me teach you the skill to

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Speaker 2: answer it. And when they've mastered it, they kind of

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Speaker 2: change the idea to interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 2: I wish I had a flowery answer, but I'm an inspired.

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Speaker 2: I love it, but because in my mind.

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Speaker 1: That was the dead Parent Society. Oh that's so funny.

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Speaker 1: Please go and get yourself both The Sad Boys Starter

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Speaker 1: Back and other poems, and also Haram by Zaba Chance.

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Speaker 1: It's been an absolute pleasure to have you in studio.

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Speaker 1: I've enjoyed this conversation so much.