1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:02,360 Speaker 1: Join the conversation. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 2: Join the conversation. You're with Kate. 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 3: Talk forty two minutes past one and if you're just 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 3: tuning in for the first time this afternoon, you are 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 3: just in the neck of time for book club this week. 6 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 3: A great pleasure to welcome to the studio. South African 7 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 3: writer Imran Covadia, a former winner of the Sunday Times 8 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 3: Fiction Prize, current director of the Writing Program at the 9 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 3: University of Cape Town, someone who has shown a great 10 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 3: deal of skill across a wide variety of genres. 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: But his latest release is. 12 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 3: A novel called An Enemy of the People, and it 13 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 3: is partly a book of political observation. It's also partly 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: a book of family drama and family dynamics. But at 15 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 3: its heart it's a book that asks about the price 16 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 3: people pay for refusing to turn the blind eye, turn 17 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 3: a blind eye to state corruption, which makes it incredibly 18 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 3: topical and Imran, it's wonderful to have you with us 19 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 3: to talk about books. 20 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. 21 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: Thank you peping me. 22 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. 23 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: Two, as I said, two very different kinds of drama 24 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: playing art here, the personal as well as the and 25 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 3: of course those intersect and force some difficult choices onto 26 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 3: your characters. Your main character, Mac a tax collector, a 27 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: very dedicated public servant, someone who is deeply involved in 28 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 3: following the trail of where the money has gone following 29 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: state corruption, and who is really dedicated to tracking down 30 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 3: the billions that have been stolen. And he's also somebody 31 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 3: who feels a real sense of outrage at what this 32 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 3: has cost the South African people and who recognizes how 33 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 3: disconnected that is from the dream that was built by 34 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 3: the people who fought to bring this country to birth. 35 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit more about Mac and how 36 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 3: you developed him as a character. 37 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: Well, in any country in the world, tax collectors are 38 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 2: probably that the people everybody wants to see the least, 39 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: except doctors. And so I thought, from the point of 40 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: view of trying to understand society, what would it like 41 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: to what would it be like to be a tax collector? 42 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: And how do people in that position, how do they 43 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: think about collecting taxes? I mean, obviously, in a country 44 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: like Hours, on the one hand, we need to collect taxes. 45 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: You need to pay for roads and hospitals and schools. 46 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 2: On the other hand, it's so visible, how many, how 47 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: much of our taxes are wasted. So it seems to 48 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: me like it's one of it's one of the links 49 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: between ourselves and our society. That's very it's very personal. 50 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: I mean, as you know, the scariest letter you get 51 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: ever is from SARS. And we you know, most of 52 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: us spend our lives terrified of these summons from SARS, 53 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: or you know, trying to persuade SARS that we haven't 54 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: done anything wrong. So it's it's a way in which 55 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,839 Speaker 2: in which, in a country where often we don't, we're 56 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: not forced to have a moral conscience, we have a 57 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: kind of social conscience. It's this kind of bond. So 58 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 2: I thought it would be interesting to write about that. 59 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: I also just had some experience with it. My family 60 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 2: were very close to Preveen Gordon and his family when 61 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: I was growing up, and you know, something which which 62 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: continued all the way until his death a year ago 63 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,559 Speaker 2: or two years ago, and so I'd had many conversations 64 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: with him actually over the years, with some of which 65 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: I've written about. I always thought it was strange he 66 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: had the idea that you could make a society progressively 67 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: better by simply enforcing the law more terrifying everyone into 68 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: paying taxes, you know, And I always thought, what a 69 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: strange idea that you you know, I thought, you know, 70 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: we're you know, we're such a troubled society. You know, 71 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: we have many, so many different kinds of religious and 72 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: moral consciousness and amorality. What an odd idea that someone 73 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: who's running the tax agency thinks we can make ourselves 74 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: better by by enforcing the tax laws. And yet there's 75 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: something to be said about about what he did. So 76 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: we'd had those conversations, and obviously I knew a fair 77 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: amount about him, and I thought someone like him, not 78 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: exactly him, would be an interesting character, you know, that 79 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: that kind of figure. So yes, there is I mean. 80 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: A very direct note to him, and the fact that 81 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: Mac works for a minister who is very much supportive 82 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: of his efforts and driving the effort to follow the money, 83 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 3: try and get it back, and it's it's I don't 84 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 3: think it's going to scape anybody that that minister is 85 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: a former pharmacist. I mean, there's obviously a not there 86 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: to preferend Gordon was I mean, was that a very 87 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: deliberate choice there? 88 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: No, it was in fact character Yes, In fact, my 89 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 2: mother is a dermatologist who's still working in her well, 90 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: she would say her late thirties, but you know, she's 91 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: she's somewhere, she's working quite late in night, but she provines. 92 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: Pharmacy used to be down the road from her dermatology practice, 93 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: and so she would send him many patients and send him, 94 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: you know, to get their drugs prescriptions filled. And when 95 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: he was on the run from the police, she made 96 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: sure to send a steady enough stream of patients. And 97 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 2: so I've always found that pharmaceutical aspect of his life interesting, 98 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: and I think it's also part of our country. You know, 99 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 2: we're kind of a rough country and an unexpected country, 100 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: you know, a country where pharmacists can grow up to 101 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: be a tax person or a lawyer, you know, grows 102 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: up to be a president, or you know, in Jacob 103 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: Zuma's case, when he came off Robin Island, he got 104 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: a job in a pet store. You know. So people 105 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: have often had these very unexpected experiences which feed into 106 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: who they are. And I know that, I mean, I 107 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: sort of invented in a book, but I have a 108 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: feeling it's based on a memory that Previn continued to 109 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: offer medical suggestions to people until quite late in life, 110 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: you know, many years after he had ever stopped working 111 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: as a pharmacist. 112 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: So that is Mac the one main character, but equally 113 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: important to the storyline, and intersecting with Mac's story obviously 114 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: on personal and professional levels, the story of his wife, Tejel, 115 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: who is a lawyer, and when we meet her at 116 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: the start of the book, she is so someone who's 117 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: come from the background of activism herself, but it's not 118 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: offending a very new type of activist. The young man 119 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: accused of burning buses and toppling statues, et cetera, in 120 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 3: pursuit of his revolutionary ideals, and nobody seems to dispute 121 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: that he is guilty of this behavior. But the question 122 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: that some have is whether that behavior was justified, and 123 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 3: in turn, whether she is then justified in offering him 124 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: a defense. 125 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit more about her well. 126 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: Of course, the novel as a whole grows out of 127 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,239 Speaker 2: that period we went through in sort of twenty fourteen 128 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, when we had two very interesting things going on. 129 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: On the one hand, we were toppling statues, some statues 130 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: which really need me to be toppled, but we're also 131 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: burning books and artworks and stuff, and at the same 132 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: time we had this extraordinary, you know, robbery of our institutions. 133 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: And I guess the book starts from the fact of 134 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 2: having both those different kinds of disorder, but also around 135 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: this couple where one thinks, well, we need a few 136 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: rules around money and the other one thinks, well, we 137 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: need a few rules around behavior. So you know, the 138 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: husband is involved in taxes and Tejel his wife is 139 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: involved in law, and I guess they're both trying to 140 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: pursue what they see as improving the society in different ways. 141 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: But she of course gets conscripted to defend a kind 142 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: of flawless type revolutionary which leads to a certain amount 143 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 2: of controversy in this couple. And you know, she's working 144 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: by the good loyally principle that everyone needs a defense. 145 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: And also, you know, she's a what you would call 146 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: a black woman. In fact, she's an Indian woman. But 147 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: you know, even at that time, I think people like 148 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: the idea of lawyers, you know, greater diversity of lawyers. 149 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: So she has a certain interest or prestige, and so 150 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: she gets drawn into a situation where she's defending someone 151 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: who has who's at best of dubious person to be 152 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: defending and whose actions are dubious. So I thought it 153 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: was an interesting way to portray that conflict. And I 154 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: think also a lot of our writing it involves a 155 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: certain kind of either interest in poverty and suffering or 156 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: either or a certain kind of middle class existence that threatened. 157 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: And I thought, what about a different kind of exploration. 158 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: You know, a couple who who stand for I think, 159 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: reasonably good goals, but are being overwhelmed by the situation. 160 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: And in fact that I borrowed my title from Ibsen's play, 161 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: But such a Gray also made a great film about. 162 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: I think it's about a water inspector who knows that 163 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: the result is poisoned, or the temple water is being poisoned, 164 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: and the entire town wants him to shut up about 165 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: it because it will ruin the tourist industry. And you know, 166 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: and I suppose it was from that idea that, you know, 167 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: we were facing this wave of populism, what does it 168 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: feel like to be in in in the way of 169 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: that wave of populism? And I felt, you know, I 170 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: felt a tiny bit of it myself when you when 171 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, when I wrote a bit 172 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: about when I thought the mistakes were of certain kinds 173 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: of revolutionary tactics like burning books and so forth. I 174 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: just found myself on the other side of a number 175 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: of tweets, and so you get a feeling of what 176 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: it's like to be on the other side of that 177 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: enormous steam roller of enraged whatever it is, populist or something. 178 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: And I think we know that now much better than before. 179 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: You know, we know what you know, what is it 180 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: like to be in Trump's America and have there tens 181 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: of millions of people angry with you? It sticks terrifying. 182 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: So I think it also growed of that situation. For me, 183 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: it's interested in exploring it. 184 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, just coming in midway on this conversation Imran Cavadia, 185 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 3: the author with us in studio today talking about his 186 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 3: new novel and Enemy of the People, And I mean, yeah, 187 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 3: the question, you know, that question is framed in different 188 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 3: ways through throughout the book of the question of who 189 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: is really the enemy of the people here, because you 190 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: have some accusing Macintezel of being the counter revolutionaries, that 191 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 3: they are the enemy of the people for bringing the 192 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 3: party into disrepute by by continuing to draw attention to 193 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 3: the money that's disappearing, et cetera, and with grave consequences 194 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: for them. I mean, this is a book, Iran, that 195 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 3: talks to the very real physical risks of being prepared 196 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: to be the person who says, no, I will not 197 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: turn a blind eye to this. I mean, was that 198 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: one of the compelling reasons for writing this book what 199 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: you saw happening to those around you who have been 200 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 3: brave enough. 201 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: I think it's a very interesting theme to pursue. But 202 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: this in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, if you remember, Zumas 203 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 2: didn't execute any of his opponents. The one thing he 204 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 2: did do was charge Privying Gordon with multiple kinds of fraud. 205 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 2: But at that time we hadn't yet descended into a 206 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: country where accountants and auditors would be routinely assassinated, and 207 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: that actually came with twenty eighteen twenty nineteen. So I 208 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: think that sense of the very you can abandon the 209 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: law for a while and maybe there'll be no immediate consequences, 210 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: but we really did abandon law. And now I think 211 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: people who audit books, who who do check for taxes, 212 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: who try to keep things right, I mean, I think 213 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: they're in fear of their lives. Not always in Cape Town, 214 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 2: but my sense is Johannesburg in Pretoria, it's a very 215 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: frightening place to be an auditor, you know. And in 216 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 2: that sense, order to stands for anyone who has supervisory 217 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: a supervisory role in our society, a politician or a teacher, 218 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: or a you know, a doctor or a nurse, you know, 219 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: anyone who has to take care of something and make 220 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: sure it's running smoothly. I think we all feel a 221 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 2: certain sense of fear. And you know what if someone 222 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: pushes back, you know what if what if there are 223 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: interest groups in the side. You know what if you're 224 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: working at a hospital in Hateng and you notice that 225 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: the entire budget is being pillaged. 226 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: You know iman that sort of political thought of yeah, 227 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 3: do you speak art do you stay silent because you're 228 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: aware of the risk. And then also this question and 229 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 3: your referenced it in what private Gordon used to say, 230 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 3: how funny you found it that he believed, he genuinely 231 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: believed you could make change from within the system by 232 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 3: behaving in a certain way. And the one thing I 233 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 3: noticed in this book is how that sort of political 234 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: concept intercepted with the personal in this book, because the 235 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 3: one thing we haven't spoken about is that the personal 236 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: aspect of Macintejil and their sons and the wonderful relationship 237 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 3: of this very involved father who really sees his children 238 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 3: and listens to his boys and recognizes their difference and 239 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 3: their individuality in a beautiful way. And he's having a 240 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 3: conversation with one of his sons who has been unhappy 241 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 3: at school, and they're talking about, well, maybe, you know, 242 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: would the best thing be to move schools? And he 243 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: says to Shiv something, you have to make the best 244 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: of a bad thing. Join in where you can. It's 245 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: a trick being able to participate when the conditions are 246 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 3: far from perfect. He goes on to say everything is wrong, 247 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: not just here, but it looks like all around the world. 248 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 3: It is the case that will be your future. We 249 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: still have to find a way to join in. 250 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: And that really resonated for me. With the choices he 251 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: then made. 252 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 3: It might look initially like a ridiculous thing for a 253 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: man to say, who is you know, fighting so hard 254 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 3: to be the person who refuses to join in, to 255 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,599 Speaker 3: disrupt the chain of joining in, But also saying to 256 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: his son, sometimes you've got to work from inside of 257 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: where you are. 258 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think this question of joining in obviously 259 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: if you have children, or you know, if you've ever 260 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: if you're part of a society, the question of how 261 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: you join in is there's such an interesting one because 262 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: you have to join in in certain ways and then 263 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: there are certain things you really join and join in for. 264 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: But I do think our country has been blessed with 265 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 2: like a really long tradition of civic engagement, you know, 266 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: whether it's parents involved in school rugby clubs, or it's 267 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: you know, people in a church being involved in building 268 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: houses or whatever, or people building trade unions. We have 269 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: this wonderful tradition of civic engagement and gives us a 270 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: lot of richness as a country. But I think the 271 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: kind of gangs and conspiracies that we see are also 272 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: kind of anti civic movements. You know, they want to 273 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: kind of push us out, you know, so and it's 274 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: not necessarily just criminal gangs. I mean also, I think 275 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 2: our schools, our institutions are often organized in a way 276 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: that's very alienating and that keeps people out. You know, 277 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: they want to operate in certain ways, and so we 278 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 2: often keep people away from their best interest and also 279 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: children's best interest. I guess what I'm very aware of 280 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: is there are uncomfortable parts of our society. One of 281 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 2: them is that we're very bullying. We can, you know, 282 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 2: we can really bully people a society were very hierarchical, 283 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: and my experience increasing is is we learn to bully 284 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: people from a really early age, you know, from two 285 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: or three or five, and our institutions normalize it, whether 286 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: it's in a again, a political party, ch whatever. We 287 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: just gotten very used to bullying. And I think you know, 288 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: everyone you look at who's ever wanted to improve society 289 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 2: always feels that there's something at the level of schools 290 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: and neighborhoods where that's where you start stopping, stopping that 291 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: process and revising it so that we're no longer the 292 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: kind of society which bullies people, but which kind of 293 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: includes them. So I suppose that's part of the motive 294 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: for my writing this and wanting to tell these sorts 295 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: of stories. 296 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: Okay, Temba writing in on the WhatsApp line asking is 297 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: this book a work of fiction based on a true 298 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: story or what not? 299 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: Tebow. 300 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 3: It is a novel and it's set in South Africa 301 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 3: with a very recognizable scaffold, shall we say, of state 302 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: capture and looting of resources and the loss to society 303 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: that comes with that. 304 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: But it is a work of fiction. 305 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 3: I mean, do you want to respond, where does the 306 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: next certificate the setting and the fiction. 307 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: It's a very fair question. I almost put it the 308 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: other way, that it's not so much that it's a 309 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: work of fiction on true things, is that it's kind 310 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: of a true thing based on works of fiction. I think. 311 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: I think we're driven very much in our heads by 312 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: different kinds of fictions ideas. One of those fictions is 313 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: the people you know and who are our enemies? You know, 314 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: They're very powerful abstractions that we hold in our heads. 315 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: And I suppose the book is an investigation of how 316 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: also those abstractions play into our personal lives, how they 317 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: shape us, how they shape what we do things. But 318 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: clearly I'm also borrowing things from things I see here experience. 319 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: I think most writers are. 320 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Now, what a fiction writer gets to do 321 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: is make up the ending they want. 322 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: And I ran it must have been tempting. 323 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 3: And I've had this conversation with Mike Nicol before, who 324 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: does a similar thing with his crime fiction to say, 325 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: you must so badly want for all to be well 326 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: in the end, and for a comeuppance to come for 327 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: those who have looted all of this money, and for 328 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 3: Mac to be vindicated for his work. 329 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: And I don't want to give away too much of. 330 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: The plot, but suffice to say it's not a fairy 331 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: tale ending, and it's an ongoing story. At the end 332 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: of the book, was were you at all tempted to 333 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: to to sort of want to sweep in and make 334 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: everything right for him? 335 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 2: I think I think God doesn't want us to have 336 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: perfect outcomes in the world, you know. I think if 337 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: we had perfect outcomes where perfect justice was dispensed, we'd 338 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: we'd be living in a very different kind of world, 339 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: you know. So I think we do have to get 340 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: used to the fact that victories are only partial, defeats 341 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: are only temporary. And and you know, I read somewhere 342 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: some someone quite odd said something like do what you 343 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: can with what you have, you know where you are, 344 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: or something. So I suppose that general moral still appeals 345 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: to me. You know. It's that there's always some different 346 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: kinds of space and it's never going to work out perfectly, 347 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: but you know, it's you know that there's always there's 348 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: always a possibility of something improving, So I suppose i'd 349 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: say that at best. 350 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for that note of hope, and I'm 351 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: also will add thank you for the portrayal of a 352 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 3: very beautiful far very involved in his children's lives, very 353 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: much co parenting. It's somebody pointed out to me when 354 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 3: we were talking about this book a few nights ago, 355 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 3: how rare it is actually to see a father that 356 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: involved in children's lives and the day to day sort 357 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: of mental notes stuff which I hadn't noticed. I just 358 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 3: liked it without noticing how rare it was to actually 359 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 3: see that portrayed in fiction. 360 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: So thank you for that. From a big fan I 361 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: was chatting to a few days ago. 362 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 3: Iran, I want to mention you're going to be at 363 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 3: Frontshok Literary Festival, So if listeners have enjoyed this conversation 364 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 3: and want to hear more, and if you haven't read 365 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: the book yet, maybe read it before you get to 366 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 3: Front Shook and then you can really go and dive 367 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: deep into Imran's panel. But in the meantime, thank you 368 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 3: for being with us today. A real pleasure to have 369 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 3: you with US, and for listeners who want to now 370 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 3: go and pick up a copy to read for themselves. 371 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: It is called an Enemy of the People, written by 372 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: Imran Cavadia and published by and Would See, which is 373 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: an imprint of Penguin Random House, and. 374 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: It is available in stores already. 375 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: I know I got an advanced copy, but it has 376 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: hit the shelves in the interim, so you'll find it 377 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 3: this weekend if you're looking for something to read.